BS: Are the Celts Rubbish

Subject: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Pied Piper
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:22 AM

Sorry had to be done.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:33 AM

I don't think that folks in Brittany, Cornwall, the Isle of Man, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Nova Scotia and elsewhere should be called "rubbish."

Other things, maybe....

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 08:46 AM

No, but Pied Piper is a bigoted jerk.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: el ted
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 09:23 AM

Nova Scotia? Bloody long boat trip that was.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Fiona
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 10:06 AM

I'm not really a football fan but I think Celtic are doing quite well at present.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 10:09 AM

There's nothing wrong with celts, they just don't keep your knees warm!

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: lone shark
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 10:23 AM

Bogtrotters all.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 10:39 AM

sheepshaggers

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 11:21 AM

Celtic Champions again, and the Scottish Cup awaitng, how can you call them rubbish?.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:02 PM

Coz they play in a pub league.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:05 PM

Beat Liverpool, Blackburn, Barcelona, fellow pub leaguers?.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,Geno
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 12:45 PM

Dunno about rubbish but their folk music is certainly (in my opinion) by and large over-rated, one-paced and over-exposed compared to other western folk music.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: ard mhacha
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 01:57 PM

Silly Thread, we have cream and crap like eveyone else.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Apr 04 - 03:11 PM

Are there Celts in the far lands of of Rub too? They really are itinerant, aren't they?

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:14 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 03 May 04 - 02:32 PM

How do we define Celts? What is it that makes the people in Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall celts? I find that they are all quite different.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 03 May 04 - 07:46 PM

Rubbish, no. Ubiquitous, tendentious, tedious, touchy and absurdly over-idealised yes.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Cluin
Date: 03 May 04 - 08:03 PM

Tendentious?

Would you the pot or the kettle be?

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: michaelr
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:39 PM

Pied Piper, cut it out. One jOhn from Hull is one too many!

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST, John O'Lennaine
Date: 04 May 04 - 02:02 AM

The Celts were a tribe of Central Europe who had a class of traders (which culturally colonised all of Britain, among other places), a class of warriors (which defeated and occupied Rome, among other places), and a class of Druids (in which school Pythagorus, among others, probably studied)
They never had a centralised empire and they never wrote their knowledge down. That's why they were so easy for the Romans to obliterate and why all their knowledge has been lost.
They were certainly not rubbish. They were possibly the most advanced culture yet seen on Earth.
The Irish, Cornish, Welsh, Manx, etc. are not racially Celtic but culturally Celtic, and as a rule are rightly proud of the fact.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 04 - 01:42 PM

We know of the existence, in ancient times to the present, of Celtic languages.

We know of an ancient material culture now called "La-Tene" by scholars. It is assumed that the originators of these ornamental styles spoke Celtic languages. But other speakers of Celtic languages did not use this cultural style.

We know of the eastward expansion, in antiquity, of warbands that were identified by their enemies as "Celts", presumably because their chiefs spoke Celtic languages.

To what extent it is useful to lump these diverse things together under the single heading "the Celts", with a definite article (as if referring to a single homogeneous entity), is not clear. This bit of intellectual bookkeeping might reasonably be dismissed as "rubbish" if it could be shown to be more useless or misleading than otherwise. On the other hand, the concept of "the" Celts, carefully used, might be a useful bit of intellectual bookkeeping that can help librarians and scholars organize and classify the results of their research, in which case dismissing it as "rubbish" would not be warranted.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,lurker
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:21 PM

they have pretty knots

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:27 PM

Advanced culture? Possibly. But they were also a bunch of cattle stealing head-hunters. Perhaps we have come a bit futher, but sadly not too far.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Megan L
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:36 PM

nonsence Les they were entrepeneurs working in the field of commodity redistribution.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,Rick O'Shay
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:39 PM

What you can say about a people who let a few dead potatoes starve 'em on an island surrounded by fish?

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:40 AM

For conclusive proof of my earlier assertions (ubiquitous, tendentious, touchy and absurdly over-idealised etc) just see John O' Lennaine's post above. Rarely has it been my pleasure to be proved correct so neatly and so quickly!

Did the Romans 'obliterate the Celts' before or after the Celts 'defeated and occupied Rome', John?

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,An English Patriot
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:56 AM

Mmm. It seems that John O'Lennaine has the same romantic, vague and misty eyed view of the Celts that Hitler did about the Germanic tribes. ("possibly the most advanced culture yet seen on Earth" indeed. A master race, no doubt?) It seems to me that if the Celts were cultural and not racial, then anyone can be a Celt; and were the Celts really different people from the Germanic tribes that really defeated the Roman Empire-eventually? Dangerous territory. And since the Celts belonged to antiquity and anyone nowadays really define themselves as a Celt rathr than, say, Irish or Scots? It seems to me that the word Celtic is so vague as that it can cover anyone in Europe in antiquity or no-one.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:22 AM

From about 500 - 100 BC the Celts dominated most of Europe. (around 400 BC was when they defeated Rome and besieged the city until the Romans paid them to leave).
Around 200 BC their domain reached from Ireland to Turkey and from Spain to Holland.
Because of the growing strength of the Greeks, Romans and Germans, together with the fragmented nature of the Celtic empire it shrank and was eventually obliterated (yes, obliterated) under Julius Ceasar's command circa 60 BC.

I'm surprised such obviously knowledgeable people as yourselves don't know all this already.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: el ted
Date: 05 May 04 - 09:24 AM

I did. But then I am jolly clever.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:34 AM

'Celtic empire' implies that they had an emperor. Who was that then? Their culture was basically tribal and so quite disparite. Every so often a big tribe with a strong leader would impose their will over neighbouring tribes, but that doesn't define an 'empire'.

And how do we know that they had such an advanced culture. I suppose it's all that lost knowledge. But if they couldn't be arsed to invent writing (possibly a bit of a pre-requisite for an advanced culture). We'll never know. I mean - what have the Celts ever done for us? Surely the reason that Roman culture so rapidly overcame Celtic was that it was, well, better.

People who talk about 'celtic music' and think people who live in places where celtic languages are almost no longer spoken are the sole descendents of the Celts are living a strange dream. The Parisi were pretty big round here once, but I don't think of myself as Celtic, any more than I do Roman, Viking, Jute or Norman. All those people/cultures disppeared years ago, absorbed into the general mass of people. But I do love history and celtic art and Irish Mythology.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:14 PM

Les,
OK, "empire" is probably not the right word, but what else should I have called it? It was pretty big.

They mistrusted writing. They saw how it was used to obscure the truth (rather than perpetuate it) in Greece, and chose to commit their knowledge to memory.

The reason the Romans so easily knocked them over I have already covered. ("Better" is probably not a good comparison of one culture to another)

So you're not Celtic, Roman, Viking, Jute or Norman. Neither am I, but I do like to know, as best I can, what went into whatever I am. I agree with you to a certain extent that it is a wank for most of us to call ourselves one thing or another, but I see no harm in it. If someone gets some pride or something out of it, it's probably a good wank.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Gareth
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:35 PM

Click 'Ere

Still bring tears to me underpants.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: pdq
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:43 PM

Save The Wales!

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: robomatic
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:49 PM

This is a misplaced Song Thread:

From our friends yclept "The Arrogant Worms"

Through the ages, through war, pestilence and sleet, the celtic culture has survived, it's songs and dances passed from father to son, from mother to daughter, from uncle to goat. and though few
speak gaelic, the ancient language of the celts, all hearts are still stirred by the beautiful tones of this mellifluous tongue.

Ah ma wee hach patew mae bo clee hach maneagh
Heow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow bark meow
Saigh hough loo loo cheow dach hagh vreigh chouach mouheaugh
Douauh meah mae couchah moo ma meagh pach hooragh

And though other cultures tried to destroy them, driven no doubt by their jealousy of the celts' fine fashion sense and edible cuisine, they did not surrender. actually, they surrendered quite often
But they were never entirely wiped out, clinging to the corners of small islands, their voices raised in song, the clarion call of the pipes ringing out to the heavens.

(undescribably beautiful penny-whistle solo)

Ah ma wee hach patew mae bo clee hach maneagh
Heow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow bark meow
Saigh hough loo loo cheow dach hagh vreigh chouach mouheaugh
Douauh meah mae couchah moo ma meagh pach hooragh

Ah ma wee hach patew mae bo clee hach maneagh
Heow meow meow meow meow meow meow meow bark meow
Saigh hough loo loo cheow dach hagh vreigh chouach mouheaugh
Douauh meah mae couchah moo ma meagh pach hooragh
Meach bo meah mea bloh meah hoo noo euach moo doo beah

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 05 May 04 - 08:58 PM

John: an 'Empire' implies some kind of central command or coordination, even if we let you get away with an Empire with no Emperor. It's worth pointing out that if we accept your contention that scattered tribes with different but related languages are an Empire then the biggest Empire in the pre-Roman world would be us Germanic types! Germanic peoples like the Visigoths even made it to places like Nth Africa.

I 'm releived that the Celts saw what those rotten ol' Greeks did with written language in time to decide not to learn it. It's just a bit odd how you know that, since they couldn't have recorded this decision. Still just think what a lucky escape they had! There's no doubt that Greek readin' and writin' types like Plato, Sophocles, Thales, Epicurus, Aristotle, Sappho, Hesiod, Anaximander, Euripides, Aristophanes, Herodotus etc, etc have added very little to European culture compared with the Celts.

By the way we ancient Teutons could have had a written language too, but decided against it because messing about with ink and vellum interfered with our psychic channelling to Atlantis.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Arnie
Date: 06 May 04 - 04:52 PM

...and while we're on the subject, how come the footie team are pronounced Seltic but spelt Celtic....no doubt some Gaelic scholar knows the answer to this one.

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,andytown_bhoy
Date: 06 May 04 - 06:14 PM

The name was originally to be Glasgow Hibernians-but there being an Edinburgh Hibernians caused an objection from the first Celtic board, who then decided on Glasgow Celtic (pronounced Keltic) to reflect the clubs Irish and Scottish roots. The name Celtic (pronounced Seltic) was first spoken by one of the board and the man who is credited with founding Celtic football club-Brother Walfrid. It was he who pronounced the name with a soft C rather than a K sounding C. No great mystery in that-but does the explanation make me a Gaelic scholar?
While we're on the subject... Is this the same pub team we're speaking of who became the first "british" winners of the European cup?.. Or the same pub team who trashed both Liverpool and Blackburn last season on their way to the UEFA cup final? (and in doing so brought 80,000 fans to Seville without a single arrest!!.. How many engurlish clubs or their national supporters for that matter could lay claim to a statistic remotely like that?). Could go on and on, but I'll leave it like that!

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah
Date: 06 May 04 - 07:30 PM

Just remind me.. how many actual Celts are there in Celtic? About as many English players as in Arsenal or Chelsea, I'll bet! And if the Scots in the team are lowlanders they're likely to have a good dash of Anglo-Saxon and Scandinavian in them anyway. Death to outmoded ideas of racial purity!

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 06 May 04 - 08:52 PM

Arnie,
The word "Celt" comes from the Greek "Keltoi", meaning "stranger".
Greek has no soft "c", so it should be pronounced with a k sound.

I confess to being no Gaelic scholar, I just Googled it.
The poor man's doctorate.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Are the Celts Rubbish
From: Arnie
Date: 07 May 04 - 11:03 AM

Thanks for the explanation andytown_bhoy - makes you a Gaelic scholar in my book... John O'L - if there is no soft c in Greek then the team should really by Keltic, but they ain't. Anyway, whilst on the footballing theme, tough luck Newcastle - it was always going to be uphill without Dyer, Woodgate et al. So, no British clubs left in Europe this season, either English or Scots we're all out!!!