UK dance swords petition

Subject: UK dance swords petition
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:51 AM

Not sure of details of bill, but received this link:petition regarding being able to continue to use swords. Will try to chase background when more time, unless someone beats me to it!

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 27 May 08 - 10:05 AM

Forgot to say, only British citizens, residents, ex-pats etc can sign. Sorry!

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: nickp
Date: 27 May 08 - 11:02 AM

Done... although I wouldn't have thought the typical swords used would be affected

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 27 May 08 - 12:21 PM

Thanks. Know what you mean about 'swords', but after hearing of red-tape issues in York this last weekend, I'm taking no chances!

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Folkiedave
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:07 PM

Red tape issues?

You mean the insistence that tents should be 6.00 metres (20 feet) apart? I know of no music festival that allows camping which could go ahead in England under such circumstances.

But I thought spreading it about that people within tents had to be 4 feet apart was a bit mean though :-)

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Tootler
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:25 PM

Done.

Sounds like we have another ill-thought out piece of legislation on its way.

The politics of the jerking knee rears its head once again.

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:33 PM

Wait til the Scots hear about this. They will toss a caber. If not a sword.......how utterly flaming ridiculous. Sorry I can't sign. You have my support!

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Emma B
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:34 PM

Just received this petition via email today - thought it had to be a joke!
What next?

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:35 PM

Ban humans????? Seems safest, actually.

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 May 08 - 05:44 PM

And oh yes...let's ban sticks too. They can be made all pointy...and ban the trees they came from!!! How sad and stupid.

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:07 PM

I've signed the petition, but the Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 doesn't seem to cover swords - there's a mention in para 240 of the
Explanatory Notes of an exemption from the restrictions on imitation firearms when used for historical re-enactments. I've also found a 2006 report on Scottish legislation - but that isn't the responsibility of the UK Parliament or Government.

Kitty

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Herga Kitty
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:17 PM

I've now found more info on e-bay

Kitty

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Sorcha
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:20 PM

OK...so the next question is....just what constitutes a 'curve'? How MUCH curve is allowed? Obviously a scimitar is right out....but a katana????? Hardly any 'curve' to those.

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:27 PM

I think they should ban the swords...........and the costumes...........and the dancing............

Spaw

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: BanjoRay
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:30 PM

Surely a long thing used for dancing which doesn't have an edge or a point isn't a sword, but just a vague impression of one?

Ray

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Pete_Standing
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:33 PM

Let's add Maypoles to the list of dangerous items/practices. One false move and there would be a strangulation.

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Emma B
Date: 27 May 08 - 06:34 PM

and all those germ health hazard hankies!

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 May 08 - 09:05 PM

Morris Dancers take it all so seriously - from their Hankies to their Pankies Bells...

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:31 AM

More information here and here

Subject: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban
From: GUEST,Acorn4
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:08 AM

I've attached the following email from a friend of mine who dances for the Witch Men -

Hi All,



I don't normally forward stuff like this, but it seems another stealth law that could eliminate your right to perform or watch traditional English pastimes.



It would appear the Bill (see below) may only apply to swords, which is bad enough for Long Sword dancers and Rapper Teams, but the next thing could be Morris Sticks which would be another nail in the coffin of your heritage.



After that, how soon before they ban .... Drum Sticks, Razor-edged Plectrums, Violin Bows, Bodhran beaters, Harmonicas with sharp corners, Melodeons which can trap fingers.



Seriously, please sign the petion if you feel your right to perform or watch in a traditional manner is being threatened. It won't cost you anything, apart from a few moments of your time.



Cheers Erik



Here is the link:

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/dancers

Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:21 AM

Are we sure this is not a knee jerk reaction to a mis-read article? It has happened, many many times... remember the 'sausages must be called "meat product offal tubes"' debacle a few years ago?

LTS

Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban
From: Bernard
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:23 AM

Rapper 'swords' can hardly be described as swords in the true sense, so it's unlikely that any attempt at prosecution would get anywhere...

Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:29 AM

I've just signed anyway, but lets not talk about stealth laws and Nanny states. Unintended consequences maybe, which we are making people aware of.

Of course, the sooner they ban those dangerous (in some hands) Morris sticks and Indian clubs the better.

Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:31 AM

Perhaps the Scots are a bit more sensible, they use real swords ie. claymores in their dancing, no word of a ban yet ?

eric

Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:34 AM

My daughter was near the front with the other children at a performance at Beverley ff one year and was hit by an Indian club. All the audience drew in there breath, but as she staggered up to the top of the cinema to find us, she overheard someone say "Oh, it's OK, it's not a LITTLE child."

Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban
From: Mr Happy
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:41 AM

Surely [not Shirley!] rappers aren't swords as they're totally pointless [2 handles]!!

Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban
From: banjoman
Date: 28 May 08 - 06:54 AM

I,m all for banning melodeons as dangerous weapons, but long swords???

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Geoff the Duck
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:00 AM

This all sounds like someone trying to invent problems which don't exist.
If anything, the petition seems to be trying to get the government to include things which are not and never have been weapons into legislation which is nothing to do with traditional dance.
Anyway - traditional activities are by any definition some form of historical reanactment. The key point in existing legislation as aplied to REAL swords and weapons is tha it must be an official group with public liability insurance. That pretty much covers Morris and sword teams.
Quack!
Geoff the Duck.

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Mo the caller
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:08 AM

No harm in saying to the legislators 'make sure the problems don't arise' BEFORE they pass the law, thats what white (or is it green) papers and consultation are all about.

Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:14 AM

I have signed.Dick Miles

Subject: RE: Rapper Dancing -possible sword ban
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:16 AM

The difference with fighting swords and rapper dance swords - swords are swung freely and used to hit people. As a risk assessor I would put the audience behind a barrier and have a second barrier positioned a sword length plus inside the first, so that the sword fighters don't get too close to the crowd.

Rapper and dance swords are held (relatively) securely at both ends during the dance and are only 'free' during the clash, which is directed inwards and is only for the noise effect - it is never violent or potentially harmful (skinned knuckles and personal disputes aside). If someone were stupid enough to try to walk through a set, they might get a clip from a sword, but the set does tend to be fairly tight and close. They don't get swung freely in an arc and are not heavy or sharp.   There is a potential hazard in the steeper bends, but the most likely to be hurt are the dancers. I've not heard of any rapper snapping under stress and I'm told they're pretty rigourously tested and replaced regularly.

Morris sticks are another kettle of puddings. They break. Some teams seem to take great pride in making sure at least one breaks per gig. Splintering can be reduced by taping the ends of the sticks and hitting less violently. Or do as Royal Liberty Morris do and use scaffold poles (joke - they're even more dangerous than splintering sticks!).

I've been on the receiving end of a fighting sword swung indiscriminately - even though I was sitting 6ft away from the performer, behind a bollard - it got me in the side of the head and bent my glasses; I've lost count of stick splinters I've caught - but I'm yet to see or recieve an injury from a long dance sword or rapper - if you don't include the bad back from lifting the bag out of the car.

As a risk assessor, the key is crowd control. If you are in a procession, it is up to the stewards or police to make sure the crowds stay a safe distance away, behind any barriers and don't run stupid risks. If you're at a stand then it's up to the other members of the team to make sure people are at a safe distance.

Otherwise, that's why you have insurance.

LTS

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 28 May 08 - 07:21 AM

I signed and will bother my MP. I guess them Scottish Swords are more of a problem.

Perhaps MI5 could monitor the purchase of claymores by people who don't look stereotypically Scots?

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:00 AM

How does this affect Black Rod etc. at the opening of Parliament? That is of course not an Historical re-enactment so presumably will not be allowed.

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 28 May 08 - 08:20 AM

I've signed.

Just a thought, tho'......Although Rappers hardly classify as weapons, perhaps we should remember that not all Scottish dancers are in Scotland, and those who dance in England surely use the same real swords. I for one want to protect THEIR right to continue.

Don T.

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Darowyn
Date: 28 May 08 - 02:18 PM

The Violent Crime Reduction Act passed into law in 2006.
It includes a clause exempting theatrical, TV and film performances and rehearsals.
So if there is any problem, just say that you are rehearsing for an indoor performance.
Bolt the stable door, the horse left two years ago!
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: GUEST,squeezeboxkc
Date: 28 May 08 - 03:39 PM

so how does this affect Mumming teams, in effect we are performing a traditional play reflecting a historical fact!!!!! perhaps; was George real? did Robin Hood exist as a YORKSHIRE folk hero those arrows could have been sharp. would beelzeebub exist with sharp dripping pan   Egypt is now a republic is the king real, where is paradine to have a prince or little devil doubt exist etc, we fully support the petition and have signed it LOL this government is taking the p=ss
ken

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:16 PM

Liz said,

"remember the 'sausages must be called "meat product offal tubes"' debacle a few years ago?"

It was more than a few years ago, and was part of a 'Yes Minister' episode. It wasn't real!

This Sword nonsense isn't real and is utter bollocks too, so Liz's mistake makes a good point.

Remember the stuff around PELs, where you'd go to prison if you sang Happy Birthday? Stuff and nonsene

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: GUEST,Wheatman
Date: 28 May 08 - 04:55 PM

The petition has my name
With regard to PEL I do not want to be the test case in court so it was important to protest and got the morris exempt. The local Authorities are waiting for the results of test cases so they have a yard stick (pun intended) to apply the legislation.
Any one who has danced the Morris (collective term for as types of "ritual dance") will know how it can be a danger to the public and performers alike. Rappers break just as morris sticks do. Last week end in York I saw at least two longswords leave the set heading for Joe Public. I'm glad to say they caused no harm. So much for a sedate, safe dance.
I believe a member of the public was hurt by a rapper dancer being flung from the set ( caused by a broken sword) at Sidmouth last year.
Life is not without risk but do not rely on your insurance as the suits will wriggle out of paying on a technicality if they can. Make sure your risk assessment is done and up to date.

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 29 May 08 - 06:01 AM

Further clarification, received by forwarded email:

"The Morris Fed along with the Ring have been looking into this for about 6 weeks now, from when it 1st came up... I sent info about it to StoneMonkey via Ron, SDU via Sal Wearing and various others then.. weeks ago.. and the received info to investigations show:

A Sword under this Act (which by the way IS in law and has been since April) is defined as over 50 cms (20 inches ish) long, Rigid Curved and Sharpened on at least 1 edge. So longswords, Rapper swords etc should not be caught by it, only if Grenosides Captain decides to sharpen the sword used in that role (or Monkeys, or Kingsmen etc ) will it be "illegal"... and Para 4 of the details of the Act give Exemption for Historic Re-enactments (so I assume a Lord somewhere is in the Sealed Knot!)... and if what we do is not Historic blah blah etc ... it would be a most enlightening court Hearing to be involved in and I wonder how much Good Publicity we could get from it...

Yes sign the petition to raise awareness but dont Panic...

Trefor Owen Morris Fed Pres...."

Hey ho! Perhaps I should have waited, but went ahead on the strength of names I recognised amongst the signatories. It won't hurt anyway, so I'm not THAT apologetic!!

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:26 AM

If your longsword is "sedate, safe dance" you're doing it wrong. I recently had to go to A&E for some stitches after getting a longsword in the eye during a practice.

Subject: RE: UK dance swords petition
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 02 Jun 08 - 08:34 AM

Could the clones maybe combine these three threads?