BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)

Subject: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 05:29 AM

I've heard that there's a bill currently going through parliament, which deals with various aspects of civil liberties. If my info is correct, there is a section of this bill, aimed at repealing The Hunting Act 2004, which outlawed hunting with dogs.

If this is true, I regard it as an extremely retrograde step and, quite possibly, a sneaky way of getting the Hunting Act off the statute books.

Does anyone know more about this?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 06:41 AM

I expect that the Bullingdon Club want to be able to hunt the lower classes, or those on disability benefit, what?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 06:48 AM

well Richard... if the lower classes want to sell family members because they can't afford to keep em...

I see a Swiftonian Modest Proposal arising from this.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 07:10 AM

It would indeed be a retrograde step and I'm getting too old for hunt sabbing, these days.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 07:29 AM

20 June, 2009

"Over 400 members of the Masters of Foxhounds Association (MFHA) gave a standing ovation to shadow foreign secretary William Hague MP at their AGM in London on 9 June, after he repeated strongly the Conservative pledge to assist repeal of the hunting ban.

"A Conservative government will give parliament the opportunity to repeal the Hunting Act on a free vote and in government time. This has been our position and it will remain our position," said Mr Hague.

But he warned that repeal would depend on a majority Conservative government and all hunts should play their part to help get the party elected."

Report from Horse and Hound

The majority of Liberal Democrat MPs in the House of Commons supported a hunting ban
In their policy paper, the Lib Dems 'reassert [their] existing policy of supporting a ban on hunting with dogs'.

PAD (Protecting Animals in Democracy) points out however that
"There is a tendency for Lib Dems in rural seats to be more equivocal on hunting, which betrays a worrying lack of principle."

A "sneaky way" of achieving this when public opinion is still opposed to fox hunting would not surprise me

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 07:55 AM

I totally support the hunting ban.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Rafflesbear
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 07:57 AM

Wily old Mr Reynard saw this coming so he moved into towns and launched a charm offensive.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 08:01 AM

I'm still not entirely clear why hunting foxes and hares with dogs is wicked and cruel and illegal, but hunting rabbits is fine.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 08:15 AM

Well, Greg, do a bit of reading.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 08:36 AM

Are there special books about hypocrisy?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 08:46 AM

It's quite simple, Greg - rabbits aren't usually hunted by packs of dogs as they don't give good 'sport'. The idea of hunting with packs of dogs is to extend the time before the kill for as long as possible, causing the quarry the maximum suffering. When hunting rabbits for food, a dog may be used to flush out the rabbit, which is either killed quickly by the dog or shot within a few seconds - a far more humane way of killing than transporting animals and chickens to a slaughter house. I'm afraid I can't see any hypocrisy in that.

BTW, are you a vegan, Greg? Ever tried eating a fox?

I'd also like to point out that, from personal experience, I know that fox-hunters are often also the ones engaged in badger baiting and dog fighting - both illegal but common in areas where hunts exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 08:52 AM

I suppose we can all have our doubts Greg. Fom me, I can accept the catching of a rabbit as food - after all, while not a great meat eater and live with vegetarians, I can eat a bit of pig or cow. And although not a hunter, we have my mate who came into the garden one day looking lost, Willy Weasel (believe it or not with that name - a female ferret) as a pet and I don't think she would be kind to rabbits

I don't handle what I see as persecution for the fun of the chase though although even then I guess I have to handle it with animals - another mate of mine, well fed Worthy the Snot Cat killed a squirrel today - I think us humans should rise above such pursuits though.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Silas
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 08:56 AM

Chasing an animal to the point of exhaustion and then allowing it to be ripped apart by a pack of dogs is not really sport - is it?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: greg stephens
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 10:59 AM

If it's illegal to hunt a fox or a hare with a dog, it should be illegal to hunt a rabbit with a dog. I can relate to those who go one way, or the other, in the argument.There are cases to be made for anti-hunting and pro-hunting. What I can't be bothered with is the idea that we can sit in the middle, divided animals into huntable and not huntable. Make your minds up, which is it to be?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 11:11 AM

Ok, settle down...

Re read what Hague said.

The man is an orator, and there are few of them around in the commons these days, (Alan Johnson gave a good performance yesterday though, and whilst I don't agree with everything he said, he is one of the few, like Hague, who can put it across.)

Hague said three things that need taking into account before everybody starts sounding like a Self Righteous Brothers sketch...

1. Majority Conservative government.
2. "Assist" the repeal; ie private members bill, the sort that rarely get through, letting the government off the hook.
3. Give us your money and votes if you want this.

he was out begging for money and votes. He would have sold his arse to a researcher if it meant money in Tory coffers.

Don't rise to the bait! It will be all the sweeter to see the look on the florid ruddy faces of the huntin' shootin' fishin' set when they see they are being sold a pup. Labour risked a lot and lost money / media credibility by pushing the bill in the first place. it would be suicide for any party to drag it out again.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 11:12 AM

On that we should perhaps firstly decide whether to eat meat or not? And as hinted at above, I can as well as being mostly veg (parents are veg), enjoy a bacon butty.

On the wider make my mind, It is to be anti although I probably have more difficulty with the concept of banning than I do with the belief I wish this pursuit does not exist.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: akenaton
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 03:25 PM

"Are there special books about hypocricy"

A Greg Stevens Mudcat special.....a classic

Still laughin'.....and I'm against foxhunting.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Big Phil
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 05:47 PM

Time the ban was lifted. Dogs are designed to hunt and kill, that's why they have sharp teeth and fangs.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 06:04 PM

Dogs are designed to hunt and kill, that's why they have sharp teeth and fangs.

my mates the cat and the ferret also have such teeth. While OK probably designed for their personal use of eating other creatures, I'm not sure they may (at least the cat) even be prepared to go out on a hunting expedition with a man.


I do not see "hi my snotty cat mate let's go out for a meal" working

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Oct 10 - 07:45 PM

If you're human and you intentionally kill it you should eat it, and use whatever parts you can. Mountain men out in the American West trapped and killed beaver for fur -- and ate them, too. Muskrat is kinda well, stinky, eating but it's edible. I suppose I could eat fox, cat, dog, coyote, wolf, and so on if I had to. I've known several people who have eaten mountain lion and were glad to get the meat.

As I said, though: you kill it, you eat it.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 03:18 AM

"The unspeakable in full pursuit of the uneatable." Oscar Wilde.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: s&r
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 03:40 AM

Strange description of Maggie's lapdog as an orator. Sneery with the worst speaking voice ever.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 04:18 AM

No. he does suffer from a voice that grates, I'll give you that. he also suffers from having views that fail to coincide with mine.

However, he was, before returning to front bench, the highest paid after dinner speaker on the UK circuit and in the top 10 in the USA. There is a reason for that. Oratory. You don't have to be of any particular political persuasion to be erudite, clear speaking and lacking in waffle. he has, it, Tony Benn has it, Michael Foot, Winston Churchill, Enoch Powell and Jeremy Thorpe had it, (judging by those we are able to hear recording of.)

Now.. that is a bit of a mixed bunch, no messing. Enoch Powell will always be remembered for one speech, but at least it is being remembered for a speech, and as an orator, he can at least have some ironic posthumous satisfaction for that, even if his speech was ill judged and largely misconstrued.

Whilst poor Jeremy Thorpe, the guy no minister liked facing as he could use word play and logic chopping to devastating effect; he will be remembered not for his verbal delivery but for sucking off a bloke and then having the bloke's dog killed.

Hague? it appears the mental image most people recall is the 16 year old precocious brat at the Tory conference being given a microphone. Sad, but like Powell, the image of him is at least one of giving a speech, and as an orator, he will have to be contented with that.

Don't confuse skill with agreement. I recall watching Ronaldo and thinking there is, on his day, no better footballer. The fact I would have preferred him on the losing side that day is irrelevant.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 06:35 AM

There is a difference between oratory and any type of football. The former requires a brain.

Probably the best speaker in the House of Commons recently was Robert Marshall-Andrews.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 07:12 AM

Football requires a brain too. I may have a PhD blah blah but to see Beckham swerve the ball over 30 yards into space for a player to run into, where I never noticed an opening... that too is a skill. I was fit enough to be a footballer, and as I kick with my left foot, I managed to reach the school team, but I was not clever enough in the areas where it counts to be one, so after a spell down the pit and then as a rep, I got into further education, ran my own businesses and ended up being of the sort that is envied rather than doing the envying. Yep, a fat cat who then got paid even more to advise a government department. But you know what? I wish I was clever enough to have been a footballer.

Bob Marshall Andrews can talk, never said he couldn't, but to be an orator, it helps to have a stance, and I used to wonder how he ever in all seriousness could take the party whip.   

Richard Bridge just said that there is a difference between oratory and football. With regard to Bob Marshall Andrews, I would say there is a difference between oratory and being a loose cannon. Mind you, he liked to appear his own man, sitting next to Ian Hislop biting the party hand that feeds him. But later that night, in the division lobby, he asked the whips which queue to get into, like a good boy...

And to return to the dogs bit... It will a loose cannon, a back bencher who is easily disowned, who will be asked to form a private members bill with little chance of success.

I don't have a view either way. I am with Oscar Wild and have an issue with killing for pleasure. It is about time Darwin eradicated that primeval gene. But on the other hand, the bill was less to do with saving vermin and more to do with class war. I have better things to worry about myself... I suspect many others do too. My days of shouting "eat the rich" ended when I found out being rich was a much better proposition. Pompous? No worse than some of the diatribe being spouted on this subject from those who try to make envy a noble cause...

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 08:55 AM

When I started this thread I asked a simple answer to a simple question. IE., whether there is any legislation currently going through parliament which could include repeal of the Hunting Act 2004.

I did not ask whether the members of the Bullingdon Club like to hunt the lower orders, or try to start a debate over the ethics of rabbit hunting, or whether Hague can bend it like Beckham. Nor was I asking whether dogs should be allowed to hunt because nature endowed them with sharp teeth. Humans, most of them at any rate, were endowed with sufficiently large brains to be able to make explosives and use them. That doesn't mean they should be allowed to.

Having failed to get anything even mildly resembling a sensible answer, except for contributions by Emma B and Steamin' Willie - thanks folks - I went where I should have gone in the first place; to the League Against Cruel Sports website. There's it's obvious that the LACS is aware of the machinations of vested interest groups and is keeping its powder dry.

But is there any pro-hunting egislation currently going through parliament? No.

Can people pay more attention to the question in future?

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation?
From: theleveller
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 08:58 AM

Yes, sir. Sorry, sir! (Detentions all round)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: GUEST,Alan Whittle
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 09:44 AM

If he's still doing his teenage trick of drinking 16 pints a day - Hague probably thought it was about hunting for the bogs.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: Big Phil
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 02:46 PM

Wonder how many on here eat meat of any description or fish. Wonder how many of the LACS eat meat of any description or fish. If you do, in many cases your meat/fish has been bred to be eaten, never had much of a life.

Much better to run, swim or fly and have a life before ending up as a dinner.

As regards the hunting with dogs, survival of the fittest, the fit escape to breed, the old or injured when caught, are killed in an instant. Its just like nature, but organised by man.

Phil*

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 Oct 10 - 04:16 PM

Willie, those are just reflexes and hand-eye (or foot-eye) co-ordination. No thought involved. Animal instincts. On the terraces, on the pitch, and when out dogging.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 10:32 AM

Sorry Richard, looking up, seeing where a player can run into space, calculating the chance of him being intercepted, weighing up agains the other options, play it back, off to the left wing, thread it through the middle, route one.... Seems reflex due to the speed of execution, but the thought prior to the (granted, reflex) kick is there, thinking, judging and in the case of high profile footballers, in the knowledge of playing in front of sometimes millions of people at the time and millions more reading the critical analysis on the back page and the pics of your wife on page 3.

No pressure there then.

and in the interest of providing entertainment for remuneration. The pastime of many on here, you and I included.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 05:33 PM

Nope. I don't entertain. I sometimes try to play music and/or sing. Entertainment is prostitution. It's one of the concepts most destructive of vernacular music.

If association footballers had brains they could construct sentences. As a judge once said "young men of no very great intelligence and high disposable incomes".

One of the problems with this society is what it values.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 05:48 PM

WHO SAID FOOTBALLERS AREN'T INTELLIGENT?



WHO SAID FOOTBALLERS AREN'T INTELLIGENT?

My parents have always been there for me, ever since I was about 7. "
David Beckham

"I would not be bothered if we lost every game as long as we won the
league."
Mark Viduka

"Alex Ferguson is the best manager I've ever had at this level. Well,
he's the only manager I've actually had at this level. But he's the best
manager I've ever had."
David Beckham

"If you don't believe you can win, there is no point in getting out of
bed at the end of the day."
Neville Southall

"I've had 14 bookings this season - 8 of which were my fault, but 7 of
which were disputable."
Paul Gascoigne

"I've never wanted to leave. I'm here for the rest of my life, and
hopefully after that as well."
Alan Shearer

"I'd like to play for an Italian club, like Barcelona "
Mark Draper

"You've got to believe that you're going to win, and I believe we'll win
the World Cup until the final whistle blows and we're knocked out."
Peter Shilton

"I faxed a transfer request to the club at the beginning of the week,
but let me state that I don't want to leave Leicester "
Stan Collymore

"I was watching the Blackburn game on TV on Sunday when it flashed on
the screen that George (Ndah) had scored in the first minute at
Birmingham . My first reaction was to ring him up. Then I remembered he
was out there playing."
Ade Akinbiyi

"Without being too harsh on David Beckham, he cost us the match."
Ian Wright

"I'm as happy as I can be - but I have been happier."
Ugo Ehiogu

" Leeds is a great club and it's been my home for years, even though I
live in Middlesborough."
Jonathan Woodgate

"I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel."
Stuart Pearce

"I took a whack on my left ankle, but something told me it was my
right."
Lee Hendrie

"I couldn't settle in Italy - it was like living in a foreign country."
Ian Rush

" Germany are a very difficult team to play...they had 11 internationals
out there today."
Steve Lomas

"I always used to put my right boot on first, and then obviously my
right sock."
Barry Venison

"I definitely want Brooklyn to be christened, but I don't know into what
religion yet."
David Beckham

"The Brazilians were South American, and the Ukrainians will be more
European."
Phil Neville

"All that remains is for a few dots and commas to be crossed."
Mitchell Thomas

"One accusation you can't throw at me is that I've always done my best."
Alan Shearer

"I'd rather play in front of a full house than an empty crowd."
Johnny Giles

"Sometimes in football you have to score goals."
Thierry Henry

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: BTNG
Date: 23 Oct 10 - 07:41 PM

"Wily old Mr Reynard saw this coming so he moved into towns and launched a charm offensive."

he's currently resident at The Urban Fox
(naturally) in Birmingham

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 05:20 AM

Quoting judges? Don't they prop up the fascist state you have so many issues with?

Mind you, you are right regarding whether or not you entertain.... (Not fair, you have heaped praise on my music, but sadly, I love infuriating people by hiding behind this ridiculous non de plume.)

Notice you judge their intelligence by their interviews. Me? I judge their intelligence in two 45 mins sections. Same as you like my guitar technique but it wouldn't be fair if you pulled me up for not being good at needlework, therefore a crap musician.

Your contempt of football shows a lack of knowledge (or indeed wishing to have knowledge) so your contempt for huge swathes of society that are either pro or like me indifferent to hunting is possibly based on the same ignorance?

Can't have it both ways. If you want to eat the rich, you have to chase them first. (And stop buying my albums, if you have done in the past, as the income is rather good...)

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 10:09 AM

The legislation is pretty much immaterial. Loopholes mean that most hunts have been going out regularly since the ban, and doing so perfectly legally because they take a bird of prey with them. Hunting with birds is legal, you see...so if they get monitored, they can say the bird is doing the hunting and the dogs, horses etc are simply following the chase...

Like it or not, this is the current state of play, which is why the hunting brigade has not been more vocal since the ban. They have quietly been getting on with it while "townies" think that fox hunting has been halted.

I occasionally go out with one of my neighbours, hunting rabbits using hawks and ferrets. I would be lying if I said it wasn't fascinating to watch. If you are going to eat meat, in my opinion, it does you good to be willing to kill or at least clean it for the pot - not necessarily for every meal, but every now and again. If you can't cope with the fact that the meat on your table was once a living creature, I can't see how you can have any respect for it. We have become so divorced from what we put on our tables - but we don't have to be.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 24 Oct 10 - 11:27 AM

Oddly, judges and barristers have a much better record on equality and civil rights than governments and solicitors.

I have played association football at school. My late father played for Wimbledon (as did his brother). I have been to association football matches. I have lived in Shepherd's Bush and seen the animals who support that game pissing in the streets, threatening old ladies, double parking to block fire engines and ambulances, etc. I've seen the pubs and shops closing on Saturday to avoid those animals. If I ruled the world that game would not exist. I see no display of intelligence reasoning ability manners or culture in the vast preponderance of those who like that game. Needlework tells us nothing about musical ability, and the only thing that association football tells us about intelligence is the likelihood of its absence.

I really don't care if you don't find the way I play or sing entertaining. The music and song are much more important than mere entertainment. But I haven't praised many on here so that was a clue.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: GUEST,Steamin' Willie
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 03:54 AM

I must say, I too have seen men piss in the street. Prior to reading your message, I thought it was pubs and nightclubs that was the common factor. But there you go, it appears to be some strange historical term called association football.

Whatever that is, I do recall it has its roots in what i was talking about, football. In fact, at one time football was called association football, back in Victorian times. The word soccer comes from the Eton education habit of word reduction, hence soccer is an abbreviation of association football.

I didn't realise you were one of the ruling classes Richard! the next time we see each other, I will tug my forelock (not that I have one these days) and see if you accept it as being the thing to do...

Mind you, your rather quaint terminology concerning sport also sits with your failure to appreciate it. Perhaps this is also true with your music thoughts? Rather taken back to see you see music and song as more than entertainment. Whilst accepting song as a carrier of tales, hence dual purpose, (entertainment and information) music is, like sport, an abstraction. No more, no less. Entertainment full stop.

Actually, you aren't that bad, and I can sit through your set quite easily. You haven't praised me in this website, but at venues.

That said, your weird views on music and football do start painting a picture here. I am used to weird beards wanting to bugger up hunting, class war and envy are a Pavlovian response to living in a society with haves and have nots. Your waffle on direct action in another thread flushes out your lack of maturity too, but if you can cure society's ills by banning football, what else could you achieve?

Banning the Conservative party? Starting a line up against the wall of anybody who earns more than you?

If you think your stance through, you will find you are no better than those you loathe, except they aren't quite so hypocritical.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: Stu
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 12:10 PM

Well, it seems as though the toffee-nosed arseholes who insist the only good indigenous British wildlife is dead British wildlife are at it again: the Exmoor Emperor is dead, shot by a licensed hunter without a clue or a conscience.

Now hunting for trophies like elk heads to stick in you wall might be OK in a country the size of the US, but here shooting our largest wild animal (he was the actual single largest wild terrestrial animal in the country) for sport goes to show why the country is as fucked as it is. The tosser who shot this probably paid a packet for the privilege (rather than being a wildlife ranger doing it for the good of the red deer population on Exmoor) to prove his cock isn't as small as it actually is and these are the twats now in power.

God help us.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Oct 10 - 01:20 PM

No better than those I loathe except that I don't piss in the streets, threaten old ladies, double park to block fire engines and ambulances, organise gang fights for the sake of it, grunt tribal chants in pubs and idolise grunts who cannot construct a decent sentence, go dogging, indulge in spitroasting, sexually assault young women in nightclubs, beat up husbands or boyfriends who try to prevent me, drive while drunk, take my Bentley Continental up the motorway at 180, the list is endless.

On the other hand I have acted for a young woman who wanted a debt paid to her by a premiership footballer, and looked up "Steamin Willie" in the urban dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: GUEST,Steamin
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 09:40 AM

Spit roasting? Don't knock it till you have tried it, I say.

Lets see, there are over 3,000 professional footballers in The UK registered. (Source PFA.) Are you saying all 3,200 have Bentleys, go dogging, frighten old ladies and sexually assault people? Mind you, you reckon anybody who was born with a silver spoon in their mouth is to be despised, so a lad off a sink estate seems to be tarred with the same brush. So it isn't heritage, it must be money. Perhaps we need a list of who is richer than you so you can hate them and who has less than you so you can patronise them?

You do seem to have an irrational anger. have you seen anybody about it? There are pills available with few side effects you know.

On more practical matters, I would love to know where Steamin' Willie comes from. All I recall is that when my charge hand at the pit found I sang in folk clubs (going back many many years..) he chuckled and said "Steamin' WIllie Hardonn." That then made me chuckle and I have been using it when wanting to be anonymous ever since. (I am credited with it as a session player on at least half a dozen albums.)

I just looked up in this urban dictionary. I must start putting Hardonn at the end of my nom de plume here... Just in case anybody thinks it is Beamin' (!)

(Anybody notice the irony of the google ads at the foot of the page here? At present, mine has links for fox hunting supplies, deer stalking in South West England and Argentina big game hunts. )

Subject: RE: BS: Hunting With Dogs. New Legislation? (UK)
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 26 Oct 10 - 10:23 AM

This can not be referred to as sport, it's murder, it's a brutal death of a living creature.