BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 06:18 PM

Paul, I don't know. I am new on here so maybe later on. It seems there are arguments following my posts on here, which I hope I am not causing this to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 06:35 PM

Dear Alison
Yes it is a little complex to say the least. Here is the position. The Provisional IRA were formed late December 1969 to defend the nationalist people of the North. It was a dirty period and it was the people who called for defence of their areas. The campaign was fought long and hard and there was so much loss of life along the way on both sides. There have been several contacts with the British government since 1975. These started at low level and throughout the 1970's and 80's they came and went. By the early 1990's the Conservative government began talks with two senior republicans on a regular basis. These talks involved British ministers at the highest level. This resulted in the 1994 ceasefire. Sadly it broke and the current 1998 ceasefire held firm. Please let me add contact was always initiated by the British.

Early in 2003 it was decided to ask the volunteers on the ground their views regarding ending the campaign. The reality was most of the social aims and objectives of equality had been achieved. The volunteers all had a vote and accepted the leaderships plan. There was one outstanding issue, unification of Ireland.

The British government said Sinn Fein had a strong enough mandate to allow the people to decide, and decide they did. The Shinners are now the voice of Nationalists in the North. Sorry as to the politics of Sinn Fein and what they were offered by Britain in secret deals would require someone else to explain.

The peace deal has saved so many lives. Yes there are issues with policing and I can understand the Shinners relucance to sit on the policing board. There are still too many old school RUC still in uniform and believe me Alison they hate nationalists. A new generation of police will come through and are now made answerable.

Ógra Shinn Féin and the dissident groups do not think S.F.can deliver a United Ireland and the only way to get it is to carry on with the armed struggle.

Alison the PIRA and SF are only voices and tools of the society they come from and people want peace with justice so it's the people that have created this peace we now enjoy. CIRA, the largest of these groups are small in number and with so much security still on the ground can't make a move without the security forces on top of them.

I honestly believe if policing changes take place and the Unionist community see we all have to talk to eachother and live together, the dissident groups will end their campaign. I really hope they do.

The lost of any loved one is hard, many more than me lost friends and loved ones too.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 06:42 PM

Sorry Keith.

I did not mean you ever posted a soldier's account. What I meant was possibly information of events or figures was possibly based on an account of the event from information supplied by the British army.

Sorry about that. Enjoy your evening

Good night

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 06:45 PM

No Alison your not starting any fighting. If anything you have arrived during a ceasefire !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 07:09 PM

Thank you Divis for your time to explain things to me. The dissident groups say they will end their campaign if they have an united Ireland first and then they will give peace accoring to one of their Websites about them. I just still feel that they need to see things working towards an united Ireland for them to agree with the peace process. So if an united Ireland with an Irish rule finally came, then would this cause a lot of bloodshed in Northern Ireland, because Loyalists have pledged to fight this at all costs through violent means? The D.U.P. leader Ian Paisley has a saying "We will fight to we die." I don't think he is working towards peace at all. Some of his comments are laughable, but some of them are hurtful in which some of his followers are attacking placing of worship where Catholic people attend, which is wrong. Why are Catholics, Nationalists, and Republicans treaded as second class people? Why can't it be equal for all sides of the fence here in Ireland? It just seems wrong that things are so one-sided.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 07:55 PM

Because we are political bigots and they are religious bigots ! Don't pay any heed to their chants about backlashes. When the B Specials were disbanded in 1970 they said there would be civil war. They said it again in 1972 when they lost control of Stormont. And again in 1986 when the Anglo Irish Agreement was signed.And again when the U.D.R. was disbanded in 1992. During Drumcree in Portadown in 1997. Again in 2001 when the R.U.C. was disbanded. Full of sh1t, all mouth, they have to accept it's their beloved British government that disbanded and introduced all the above, not us. It's working over here Alison, Paisley won't be around for ever, once he goes the younger blood of the party will want the power in local government, wait and see.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 31 Jul 06 - 08:44 PM

Thanks again Divis for your time on here. If I have anymore questions I will let you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:18 AM

sweeney,
it is not helpful to reasoned discussion to keep accusing me of things I have not done.
Please confine yourself to attacking my opinions not me.
You claim more credibility because you are Irish, but most Irish people did not support the paramilitaries as you did. You are not truly representative of the Irish.
But you are entitled to your views and I listen.
The implication of many of your posts is that because I am English I should mind my business.
PIRA made it our business by sending their units here to leave their bloody time bombs in our public places.Streets, pubs shops, stations, holiday sea fronts to terrorise ordinary English folk.
You have not forgotten, I hope, That someone close to me was scarred by one of your devices.
A young shop girl in Manchester, she was shaken when the first bomb exploded shortly after she had walked right past it while its timer was counting down.
Her physical injuries in the second were minor, but she found herself standing in a human butchers shop after the blizard of glass scythed through the people. Her friend, another young girl due to be married, had her face shredded.
So we have every reason to take an interest in your activities.
Now, you say that you are sorry for the bombs, but also how proud you are of the bomb planters.
Your view is that the bombs were worthwhile. My view is that they were politically worthless and actually set your cause back.
And that is the only difference between us. Your political aspirations are fine with me.
Bullets in heads and bombs in shops are no way to seek political change.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:42 AM

How long will this silly bickering continue,Keith has been dragged along by a flamer who is clearly an imposter, any person involved with a terrorist organisation would hardly declare to the world he was a member.
Another thing how often have we seen posts from this man under different aliases which have neen similar in character, time to close time.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:47 AM

You say "she was shaken when first bomb exploded ? why how many bombs are you talking about here ?

You said "she walked right past it as the timer was counting down". Police got a 1 hour 40 minute warning ? Please explain why they let her walk past it as the timer was counting down ?

The warning gave police time to evacuate 80,000 shoppers from the city centre - saving countless lives. An hour and forty minutes later, at 11.16am, the bomb exploded.

We are talking about 1996 here aren't we Keith ?

Still note that you never mention the murders by your soldiers of innocent children in Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 04:53 AM

GUEST or ..... as I know you. Sorry never said I was a member.
Sorry don't use different aliases.

Really glad I am getting under your skin, pleases me to no end.

Sorry you call for time to close won't be happening either !

Please keep visiting and reading my posts.

Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:17 AM

There were 2 separate bombings in Cetral Manchester.
Remember?
Thank you for saving lives by warning that you had left a huge time bomb in a busy shopping area, but better not to put ordinary mums out shopping at risk with your bombs at all.

You say I never condemn army crimes.
Yes I do.
e.g. this thread "Like me you deplore the army's killing of innocents, "

I just point out that army killings were miniscule compared to paramilitary killings of innocents (like to see chart again?), and that the army would have left your streets 30 years sooner but for PIRA.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:48 AM

Nothing new to offer Keith. Reading the same posts from you for a year now.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:56 AM

And your message, agree with me or die, has not changed for thousands of years.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:01 AM

Sorry you feel you can still march over the top of us in Ireland. Answer you can't !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:36 AM

But I don't feel that.
Nor does any other contributor.
Try to answer what people really say, and not what it suits you to believe they say.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:23 AM

My days of being man handled in the street and questioned by your type are over Keith.

Republicans are now the second largest party in the occupied North of Ireland, something that really really gets to you. If you feel the Provisional IRA did not suffer enough for their actions, go cry to your MP because no one else is listening to you.

The war is over and we have peace and our political aims can be achieved around a table. Accept it or in your case swallow that very bitter pill.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:59 AM

You continue to misrepresent what I think, want and say.
Because it is easier to rant at than what I really say?

I am glad for you that Republicans will soon be in the majority.
But do not kid yourself that it is because of your bomb attacks.

Your political aims could ALWAYS have been achieved around a table.

But for your "armed struggle" we could have been here years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:17 AM

Your political aims could ALWAYS have been achieved around a table.
But for your "armed struggle" we could have been here years ago.

I think their "armed struggle" went on too long and went too far but I don't believe thier political aims would have been achievable had the IRA never existed. I also believe that the IRA were not the only ones who prolonged matters...

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:32 AM

Divis, forgive me, but youre being a t**t today, sorry..(& thats not 'twit', btw...)

Your wish for your United Ireland seems to have taken a back seat to, not scoring points off Keith, but seemingly letting him think he has made a worthwhile point in the debate, then shifting the goalposts.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:34 AM

Any reasons for thinking that?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 08:42 AM

Sorry Keith, I forgot. We are entirely sweet, innocent, straight and honest and would have agreed at any time that Ireland could be united without us. All they had to do was just sit round the table and ask nicely. The Brittish army did a faultless job at peacekeeping in NI and never once in any way added to the hatered.

As for the loyalists, I'm sure they must have been doing everything in thier power to achieve peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:06 AM

No Guest, a united ireland would still have had to wait for a Nationalist majority.
And no, the army did not do a faultless job of peacekeeping. But what army could have done better, and why were they needed for peacekeeping?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:15 AM

Quite right Keith.

I would like to add to that by saying (& the guests/trolls/whoever can say what they like about me for saying this, I'm really not bothered) that ANY other Army would have done a far WORSE job in that situation, more brutal, less efficient, more indescriminate.

Thats the Army, I mean, not the politicians, Judicial system, RUC whatever...& some may say that you cant distinguish between them, but of course you can.

Anyway...I'm ready for the flak...bring it on...*sigh*

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:23 AM

Oh I see Paul. You mean like Bloody Sunday. I get it now.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:27 AM

Yep, exactly like that.

Bring in the US Army, or heaven forbid, the Israeli Army, & it would have run right through the week.

Any more examples? I am sure you have them, because they exist.

However, ONE example, hardly refutes my point does it?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:33 AM

Keith A of Hertford you appear very self-righteous and continually indignant.

One of your most typical characteristics is your readiness to judge another person's actions and general behavior without ever taking the trouble to determine the real reasons and all the specific circumstances attached to their post. You deem it sufficient to know that someone failed to conform to your demands and then pronounce sentence upon him.

Consequently you handle all the different members who take part in Irish debates as being on one and the same level. When you read of someone's personal experience you become fully justified in indignantly condemning that person for as if he incurred it upon himself, despite the fact he produced valid proof of the actions in question and they were unquestionably true.

Even if Divis Sweeneys "crime" is merely a violation of local Irish tradition, you will respond with full-fledged moral indignation, the more so if the act could shock the site and could in any way be related to a current political issue.

You always tend to suspect the worst in people who speak against any British policy, and you always presuppose and anticipate what their reply will be. You are characteristically opinionated and unshakable in your opinions.

One of your most hideous features is when you are rightly blamed by someone for posting incorrect information, you will neither respond nor admit your fault. You will play the part of the individual, unjustly attacked.

You try so hard at shifting the theme in every thread towards republicans, and you will twist the situation into an occasion for exhibiting your forbearance. This attitude embodies an infamous hypocrisy, even calling on other members to elevate and praise you. You also seem to anticipate "being elevated" in the eyes of other members through a sham humiliation.

Allow other their viewpoint and the pursuance of their cause.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:34 AM

No need Paul. I'll just sleep easier tonight safely in the knowledge that we have the best bunch of murderous bastards in the world. Than you for enlightening me.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:50 AM

Excellent post Guest 09.33am. Can I please stick an amen under it !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:50 AM

Bloody hell, Guest 9:33, youre a bit late to the party arent you? This particular round of Keith-bashing has been going on for days.

Or ar you someone who's been party to that, & just pretending to have 'newly arrived' to the debate to re-use some old jibes?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:52 AM

...& Guest 9:34, please, you cant leave it at that, not if I said something so contentious?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:53 AM

...& afternoon to you Divis

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 09:56 AM

Guest 9.33
Sorry that you feel like that about me.
i do not recognise your criticisms, but I wouldn't would I.
I will reread them and keep them in mind.

But I deny this criticism
"One of your most hideous features is when you are rightly blamed by someone for posting incorrect information, you will neither respond nor admit your fault"
Please give some examples, or withdraw that part.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 11:43 AM

Hello Paul, hope all's well with you.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 01:40 PM

Guest 9.33
You said"One of your most hideous features is when you are rightly blamed by someone for posting incorrect information, you will neither respond nor admit your fault"
I asked you to provide examples or withdraw.

You have done neither.
That make you guilty of the very sin that you falsely accused me of.

It shows your post to be a baseless personal attack on someone who you can not challenge with actual arguments.

Sweeney, by adding your "amen" to this abuse, you further lower your own credibility, if that is possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 02:16 PM

Remains to be seen Divis....not had the best of days so far, lets see how the evening goes!

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 02:24 PM

Thank you Keith, I appricate your compliment.

Again Guest 09.33 I give praise and admiration of your very astute observation. It was kind of you to acknowledge the obvious and see my plight here under continuous provocation.

Sadly ... "there's none so blind than those who cannot see!"

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Epona
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:35 PM

Paul,

If you wake up in the morning, it should always be a good day. That's what I firmly believe...

E

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 05:35 PM

Perhaps you could provide some examples for him, if you think he is correct?

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Paul from Hull
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:02 PM

True Epona, true

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 06:43 PM

The Lady or Gentleman made several observations, nothing damning indictment of me might I add ! Take your gripe up with them not me.


Clearly don't accept the criticism very well.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:00 PM

Divis, you said "No Alison your not starting any fighting. If anything you have arrived during a ceasefire !"

A ceasefire! Not to according to the Website F.A.I.R. They are still some anti Republicans and anti Nationalists on there. I now know F.A.I.R. is a cover Loyalist Website, but I think they might be back on here again soon, as they are discussing the Mudcat Discussion Forum. I am annoyed that my posts have been blocked on their Website again, as I was trying to reply to a Nationalist person (I think). This person is calls his or her self "Tirgra" as this person's e-mail address does not work either. This person also told me about the Mudcat Forum here, but I cannot find this person on here.

Kind Regards.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:10 PM

Forget that site Alison, they came here too. Crack pots.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM

Sorry meant a ceasefire among us members. We sometimes get a little cross with eachother ! Don't know any member here called Tirgra. Really sites like that don't want shared views expressed. We argue here, but the site here is very understanding. I visited that site once and found it was poison.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: GUEST,Alison
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:46 PM

Thanks again Divis. Well this person called "Tirgra" told me that Loyalists have done hundreds of terrible things to Nationalists and Catholics in Northern Ireland, for example this person says they have witnessed the attacking a four year old girl's funeral, because this particular Catholic family had to pass through a Protestant street in a Loyalist area. This little girl who died was knockdown by a car. This person also said that the Orange Order people killed three innocent Catholic children, who lived in a Protestant area, so they could march down that Protestant street as they were not allowed before to march down that particular street.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 06 - 07:56 PM

Never heard of any of these. Orange Order blamed for rising tension during the Drumcree stand off. Loyalists burned a catholic family called Quinn out of their home, I think it was around Ballymena, three children died in the fire. Must be that they are talking about, never heard of attacks on funerals. As I say, if they are blocking your posts, your better away from them. We are nicer people here anyway !

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Joe Richman
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 12:09 AM

To Paul from Hull:

What the American or Israeli armies would've done had they replaced the British in NI is conjecture at best. If you're implying they are the heavyweight human rights abuse in police actions champions, I'd say I can nominate some pretty stiff competition. And cover a lot wider political spectrum, too! For example:

1) the Russian Army.

Forget the world class abuse practiced by the Soviet Army, as they are now supposedly defunct. The current Russian army has a very thick AI file for their campaign in Chechnya and the other caucasian regions.

2) The Argentine and Chilean armies.

During their internal wars on dissent, these two machine gunned and threw out of helicopters a pretty impressive pile of victims. And the people responsible have been shielded from prosecution because the governments of those countries are too afraid to do otherwise.

3) The Syrian Army

The Alawite minority runs an army that destroyed a good sized city to defeat the Sunni Muslim rebels. And their record in Lebanon wasn't anything to crow about.

4) The Indonesian Army

Think East Timor, and Irian (New Guinea), and Sumatra, and Borneo,and the South Moluccas and a million Communists in Java..........aw I think you get it.

5) The Serbian Army. They controlled the paramilitaries in Bosnia, and their Kosovo operations were a pretty good exercise in terrorizing a population out of their homes. If they had run the NI operations, our friend Divis Sweeny would either be dead or living in Dublin. Some of the responsible persons were tried in International tribunals, but most are still safe in Serbia.

6) The Nigerian Army. I'd hate to be a country where this kleptomaniac army was providing "Peacekeeping". Not to mention the little affair in the former rebel province of Biafra.

7) the Turkish Army. Not terribly popular among most Cypriots. And the Kurdish people, even those who can't stand the PKK, hate these boys most of all.

If your tacky little dictatorship or budding democracy isn't on this list, I'm sorry but my fingers are getting tired. If I'm going to have peacekeeping troops in my country, can I please have the Irish Army? (The one with the tricolored orange, white and green flag.)

Joe

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:15 AM

Alison, lovely to have a new voice in our discussion, but please do not import unsubstantiated propaganda from other sites. We have enough of our own.
I could not help noticing that you only imported the one bit of Republican propaganda that you found on a Loyalist site.
We are already completely one sided on that split, with no Loyalist or even Unionist members posting on politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 03:22 AM

sweeney, I was prepared to take those criticisms on board, except the one that I posted false info. and ignored challenges.
He could not give a single example, because it was a lie.
Why should I give any credence to the rest of his bile?

You endorsed and applauded him.

You also could not give any examples of what you falsely accused me of 2 days ago.

He is anonymous.
You are member Divis Sweeney.

Subject: RE: BS: Sorry, yet another NI thread
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 06 - 04:01 AM

Yes I endorsed and applauded him or her, they understood the shit I take here and acknowledged it, what did you want me to do, jump to your defence ?

You have a short memory Keith.

Really can't be bothered with your Continued slanging Matches here Keith, from the pm's I get they bore other members silly.

My reason for being here is to defend republicanism from your sustained unwarranted attacks and to answer other members questions regarding Irish matters.

And I repeat my support and understanding for the PIRA campaign.