BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem

Subject: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 06 - 02:24 PM

Intolerant Netherlands
Is it possible to condemn Muslim extremism and still live among the Dutch? Maybe not.
Thursday, May 18, 2006; Page A22


AYAAN HIRSI ALI is a Somali-born Muslim woman who sought asylum in the Netherlands and then became one of its foremost critics of Muslim intolerance. Elected to parliament, she assailed Dutch Muslims for their repression of women and Dutch liberals for their willingness to accept it. On occasion, she also criticized the growing anti-immigrant prejudice in the Netherlands. For her pains, she has now been driven out of a country that likes to think of itself as a liberal democracy.

.....

Ms. Hirsi Ali will now come to Washington, where she has been offered a fellowship by the American Enterprise Institute and where, we hope, she will feel free to speak her mind. She leaves behind a country where a large Muslim minority lives isolated from mainstream society, in part because of social prejudice. In that isolation, extremist Islamic ideology is flourishing but goes largely unaddressed because those who seek to combat it are threatened or shunned. As long as such conditions persist in Europe, the war on terrorism cannot be won.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/17/AR2006051701903.html

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 06 - 02:33 PM

I hope she will find safety and acceptance here. I remember when the person she was working with was murdered. For more background on what happened in 2004, please see this thread.

May Peace Prevail,

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: CarolC
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:05 PM

A good case in point to show that in countries where social prejudice against immigrants is less prevalent, the immigrant population is far less likely to become radicalized.

Which is not to say that there is no discrimination against immigrants in the US (because there is), or against Muslims (there is), but it certainly looks like immigrants who are Muslims get treated a lot better here than they do in some European countries (quite possibly because of the vastly larger numbers of people in the US overall... it's probably much easier to get lost in the crowd here than in much of Europe).

A good argument, I think, for guarding against any increase in discrimination and/or prejudice against Muslims here in the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:26 PM

In actual fact, Ms. Ali has had her Dutch citizenship revoked for lying on her application for it.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:30 PM

Art,

From the article...

"In the end, it was not appeasement of extremism that triggered Ms. Hirsi Ali's announcement but appeasement of prejudice. The Dutch immigration minister, Rita Verdonk, hopes to become her party's candidate for prime minister; she has been appealing to anti-immigrant sentiment by posing as a tough enforcer of asylum laws. On Monday she told Ms. Hirsi Ali, a member of her own party, that her passport was being revoked because she gave false information about herself when she sought refuge in the Netherlands in 1992. Ms. Hirsi Ali publicly acknowledged the misinformation years ago; she said she gave it to prevent her family and tribe from tracking her down and forcing her into an arranged marriage."

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:31 PM

Yep...read the article several hours ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 06 - 03:31 PM

Which she freely admitted AND explained, Art: Ms. Hirsi Ali publicly acknowledged the misinformation years ago; she said she gave it to prevent her family and tribe from tracking her down and forcing her into an arranged marriage.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 May 06 - 04:35 PM

Not really the point I was attempting to make, Kat.

The person who is pushing this apparently has higher political asperations. She has already expelled an Iraqi and a kid from Kosovo for similar 'infractions' and apparently wants to show herself as completely even-handed. BB is quoting from an editorial which is apparently trying to portray this as an action against a person for opposing Muslim extremism. The news article in the NY Times (register to read) says this: People who know the immigration minister and Ms. Hirsi Ali say the confrontation between them is puzzling because they have been close political allies and hold similar views, with each saying that Muslims should integrate into life in the Netherlands or leave.

She also has not been "driven out" of the Netherlands. She had already intended to take the job in Washington, but is now leaving earlier than planned. I really thought better of the Washington Post.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 May 06 - 05:58 PM

A brief aside:

18 May 06 - 02:33 PM provided a link to another thread, and it's connection here is of some significance, BUT the link was to the "front end" of a thread with 590 posts. While it loaded successfully, eventually, that's a horribly big bite for my dial-up connection. Perhaps, with some of the long threads, a thread name and/or a link to a "first 50" would be worth considering when possible. (At least it wasn't a link to MOAB.)

On the subject here, several articles in the thread that was linked above gave somewhat the impression that the "victim" here has some ability and inclination to apply more than a little "spin" in favor of her causes. That doesn't mean that she hasn't been unfairly treated, but perhaps does mean that we need a more complete story before taking sides.

Questioning what has happened seems in order, but both sides of the story need to be subject to the same depth of inquiry.

The root of the problem is that no "civilized" country should accept the presence of organized groups that use intimidation and violence against others, in the name of religion or in any other guise. I don't know of a country where this is really policy, and to make it so could lead easily into "state persecution" of some instead of criminal warfare between cultures.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 May 06 - 06:17 PM

Sorry about that, John. I'd forgotten how many posts there were to that thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 May 06 - 07:32 PM

kat -

I've done sort of the same thing myself, esp. not noting that there was a blue "pages" on the number of posts and clicking on the main thread. Makes me think I broke something. And when you've bookmarked a thread, or just put the link in notes, sometimes they keep growin' on ya. I do sometimes open fairly long threads all in one piece when I know I want to make notes; but somethin' around 150 posts is my normal intended limit. This one did load fairly quickly, so the 'cat's greased up and running.


The offhand remark attributed to Ms Ali, that the Dutch action was "like the Nazis," and the reactions to her comment, are of some interest to me. The official response to the demand for eviction, and the possibly/apparently linked revocation of passport, do bear some resemblence to how the Netherlands responded to German occupation, at least according to some analyses I've seen; but the resemblence I see is distinctly different than the common, one might say "traditional," view of how occupation affected the countries, and the people, where it occured. There were significant differences, from country to country, and if Ms Ali's spin is accepted the Netherlands response does bear some resemblence to how they handled Nazi occupation. This is not to suggest that it was a "Nazi type action," but that their response to difficult problems is much the same as it was then. ... perhaps...

It has been my long term concern that there is great difficulty associated with understanding how people, in Germany and in occupied countries, could have accepted, and in many cases supported, the Nazi moves. The more I understand it (or think I do) the more potential I see for a number of current countries to fall into replicating what happened then; and it's a very disturbing concept.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 May 06 - 07:48 PM

The rather long thread linked by Kat in the second post of this thread is at:


More Muslim intolerance (local link to first 50 of 590 posts)

Continued, with slightly different drift, at:

BS: More Muslim Intolerance(2) (local link to first 50 of 308 posts)

We apparently had a lot to say on this. Some of it was pretty good. Some of it was ... (?) (does "less good" suffice?)

John

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Rasener
Date: 19 May 06 - 01:19 AM

How did the Netherlands handle the Nazi occupation then John?

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 May 06 - 02:06 AM

TV -

That's a really big issue, that I'm not sure I have good enough input on to discuss very well; but some sources indicate that the Netherlands was less rigidly dominated by Nazi administrators than at least some other occupied lands. It appears that much of the existing political structure, and existing beaurocracy, was left in place. The Netherlands sustained a semblance of "democracy" throughout most of the Nazi occupation.

The Nazi "conquerors" seem to have accepted, or ignored, some refusals by the Netherlands to implement Nazi policies that were more destructive in other occupied countries, but to a certain extent the Netherland's own administrators picked up and carried out a few "Nazi-ish" programs with great efficiency.

The "National ID card" program is given as an example of one instance where the Dutch were exceptionally efficient, worked eagerly with the Nazi administrators there, and very quickly and thoroughly implemented a "Nazi policy that sounded like a good idea."

The purpose of the ID cards was, of course, to identify the jews (and other non-Aryans) for extermination. The Netherlands successfully, at least for a while, refused to export jewish Dutch citizens, but went along with the export of non-citizen (foreign refugee) jews. They seem to have suffered little from the Nazi administrators for what they refused to do, but to some extent took up some parts of the Nazi occupiers' programs as their own.

Note that from my position, and at this time, it's very difficult to "characterize" what really happened in any of the occupied countries in that era. Very great care is required in accepting what any one source says, and I've found only a few sources that approach day-to-day events within occupied countries. The most "popularly believable" sources may not be the most accurate.

In most of the occupied countries, a lot of the support for Nazi policies came from fundamentalist religious beliefs, but in the Netherlands the Nazi's seem to have gotten more help from "petty beaurocratic" penchant for orderliness (a speculative conclusion at this point, of course).

John

John

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 06 - 02:45 AM

The Netherlands, France and Germany all have disproportionally large numbers of Muslims among their undocumented aliens and asylum-seekers. In western Europe, many have come through North Africa, and Spain and the Canaries, and Morocco are trying to help stem the tide.
A major problem is the refusal of many of these Muslims to accept secular education and the ways of a secular society. The 'ghettoization' works both ways, since it is impossible for them to accept direction from women in the work force and western ways of doing things.

We have a rather large Muslim population in my city (Calgary) but they fit in to work patterns and for the most part accept or tolerate our ways. They have come from the more moderate Muslim countries, and quota and skill requirements unofficially sort applicants. There is no tide of illegal Muslims crossing borders.

Any solution, as I see it, involves building up opportunities in the regions from which they come, but the 'West' is doing little or nothing in this regard.

Condemning The Netherlands and France for failure to deal with the hell bound rush to globalization we are facing does nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 19 May 06 - 04:44 AM

Q -

The observation that the actions in the Netherlands reminded me of what I perceive to have happened under Nazi occupation was absolutely NOT intended as a "condemnation." And I don't recall occupied or Vichy France being mentioned in this thread.

The point, if there is one, is that the political, religious, and social structures that existed then are very much similar to ones current today. The Nazis were able to impose and expand their influence because of the way the people in Germany and in the international community responded or failed to respond, and I think it's important to understand - at the small scale of individual citizens' actions and local politics, as well as at national levels - how it happened.

That I see, in a small way, similarities between recent Dutch events and the political structure that immediately preceded and carried into the Nazi occupation is NOT a condemnation. It's just an observation.

There is no country now, that I know of, that more resembles the political climate in which the Nazis took power and launched their regime than the US. There is no certainty that the US will become (more) like the Nazi regime; but there is, in my opinion, the potential for abuses similar to what happened then. Certainly no other country, if such abuses arise, has more potential to do world-wide harm than the US - at least for the present.

Condemnation is for fundamentalists - our current most-present enemy.
Observation and understanding are necessary for the rest of us.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Rasener
Date: 19 May 06 - 05:59 AM

Talking to my wife who is Dutch and piecing together her thoughts and comments made to me from her father when he was alive, I will attempt to give a very general comment. Please don't shoot me down, but I am sure their is factual info here.

Firstly, Holland was very fastidious about keeping records for everybody living in Holland.
The Germans blasted Rotterdam to pieces and basically that caused the surrender to the Germans.
That made it very easy for the Germans to take the records and do with them what they wanted. I do know that the resistance did their best to burn as many records as they could, but I think they probably got caught with their pants down.
There are bound to be people who helped the Germans, just like in all the other countries, if only to save their own skins.
In fact that happened in Holland with the Jews themselves. The Germans were very clever and appointed Jews to decide who would be sent to the camps and who wouldn't. In the end it bounced back on them, when the Germans sent all Jews to the camps.
I lived in Holland only 1/4 of a mile from The Artis in Amsterdam where the records were kept, and I beleive the resistance attempted to get the records destroyed but failed. This led to the Germans rounding all the Jews up and taking them to the theatre on the opposite side of the road. From there they were sent to one of the camps. The theatre is now a shrine to the memory of all the people who were shipped to the camps. Its a very sombering and disturbing place to visit.
Anyway I can remember my father in law telling me about how the Germans threatened to flatten Amsterdam unless they surrendered and leaving the Amsterdammers no choice but to surrender. My father in law was not Jewish, but he had a lot of friends who were. He wouldn't really talk anymore about it. However, he did say one thing that really stunned me, becuase I had no idea how bad it was in those time. He said that they were all starving and they ate the dutch bulbs in order to survive. Again, I think the memories were too painful for him to let his heart out.
He did tell me how much they hated the Germans and even to the day he died, would send a German in the opposite direction when asked for directions to somewhere.
Another thing that he said was, one way they could detect if somebody was a German or imposter was to get them to pronounce "Scheveningen". If they were Foreign, they pronounced it totally wrong.

Anyway John, not knocking your sources,but I personally do not beleive that the Dutch were ever in a position to withstand the Germans and their might. I think you need to put yourself in their position and see how you might reacte against those Nazi's.

Little sort of in joke.

The Dutch hated the Germans more than the Britsh ever could do when they are on Holiday and the Germans pinch the best places on the beach LOL :-)

Anyway to put things in perspective, the hatred of the Dutch football team against the German Football team is so intense, its worse than Man U/ Man City, Villa/Bham City, Glasgow Rangers/Glasgow Celtic, and that is saying something.

The younger people in Holland are very tolerant with the Germans now, but are taught never to forget what happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Alba
Date: 19 May 06 - 07:01 AM

The Netherlands has introduced a new approach to educating potential Immigrants to the Country.
People applying to immigrate to The Netherlands, people are sent a Immigration Information Kit. Here is a link to an article expressing views about the "Kit": Dutch Goverment's DVD "To the Netherlands"

Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Alba
Date: 19 May 06 - 07:16 AM

I managed to get some extra people in there...:)
Sentence should read People applying to immigrate to The Netherlands are sent a Immigration Information Kit
J

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 19 May 06 - 02:18 PM

JohninKansas, I was referring to the lead post and original subject of this thread- No mention of Nazis or Vichy. My comments all related to current conditions. It is unfortunate that that those times were brought into the discussion. Parallels there may be with those times but every European nation is struggling to deal with displaced cultures.

I see the problems as the result of cultural displacements as we stoke the fires on the hell bound train to globalization. As a result we find immigrants from theocratic societies trying to live in liberal secular cultures.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: dianavan
Date: 20 May 06 - 02:50 PM

Q has hit the nail on the head - "Any solution, as I see it, involves building up opportunities in the regions from which they come, but the 'West' is doing little or nothing in this regard."

Until the 'West' stops waging war in Muslim countries, the tide of immigration from those countries will not cease. Muslim people would prefer to remain in the Middle East and retain their cultural values but are being forced out by war. You can't expect people to stop being who they are because they want to survive. In fact, they want to survive because of who they are.

Alba - I find the Dutch immigration DVD, interesting but I think it may have gone too far or maybe not far enough. I too, see that many Canadian immigrants are ill prepared for the reality of our social system and our laws. I don't see language as a big obstacle. Remember that very few American or Canadian immigrants in the past, could speak English. In fact, I wonder if immigrants from other countries are expected to speak Dutch. The language issue is usually resolved within a generation if the rights of their children are respected.

What I do think immigrants need to know is that they are expected to not only tolerate but embrace, the rights of women and children. These rights must be clearly understood. In addition, they must understand their responsibilities. In other words, freedom of religion is secondary to the laws of the land.

Being Canadian, I have no problem with a liberal immigration policy. I love being a part of a multi-cultural society. People from other countries enrich our understanding of the world and contribute greatly to our economy but immigration officials have to do their part. Its not fair to dump the educational component on the school system or the social-welfare system. Instead of constantly 'putting out fires', the pro-active way is to educate those coming into the country.

Having said that, I think the Dutch government has tried to be pro-active and should not be criticized for 'coming up short'. Perhaps other countries will take the lead and produce a better means of educating immigrants.

Until then, get Halliburton out and start repairing the Middle East with training and education and start paying Muslim labourers a decent wage. Stop importing labour from other countries to repair the infrastructure. Create jobs and stability in the Middle East and the population will not have to flee for their lives.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Wolfgang
Date: 21 May 06 - 04:53 PM

Muslim people would prefer to remain in the Middle East and retain their cultural values but are being forced out by war.

Sorry, but that is mostly nonsense. If you look at the Muslims coming to European countries (very different from country to country) most of them come for labour and not from being forced out by war. Our (German) Muslims come (mostly) from Turkey and no war has forced them to come here.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: dianavan
Date: 22 May 06 - 04:55 PM

I thought we were discussing asylum seekers and have mixed the terms refugee and immigrants. While immigrants may be seeking better opportunities (work and education), refugees are usually fleeing political persecution as a result of war.

From islamonline: "Although it is difficult to count the exact number of refugees, and just as difficult to count the refugees according to their religious affiliation, the best estimate available to date tell us that almost seven out of ten refugees in the world are Muslim. We can know this by looking at the "sending countries" or countries from which people are fleeing due to war."

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 23 May 06 - 04:05 PM

They should start up a joint working group with Saudi Public School officials so that we may find common ground:

FOURTH GRADE
"True belief means . . . that you hate the polytheists and infidels but do not treat them unjustly."
FIFTH GRADE
"Whoever obeys the Prophet and accepts the oneness of God cannot maintain a loyal friendship with those who oppose God and His Prophet, even if they are his closest relatives."
"It is forbidden for a Muslim to be a loyal friend to someone who does not believe in God and His Prophet, or someone who fights the religion of Islam."


I ain't even going to tell you about high school. . .

Read it in today's Washington Post.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 May 06 - 04:18 AM

I suspect heric refers to:

This is a Saudi textbook. (After the intolerance was removed.)

I don't see anything in the article that's really surprising, hence little need for discussion.

I did find another article interesting, that popped up in the search for the Post bit. Not quite as fresh as the above, but perhaps of interest. My own analysis is not finished, but:

Pew Forum 04 APR 2006

seemed to me unusual in recent rhetoric. Discussion? Comment?

John

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: CarolC
Date: 24 May 06 - 02:51 PM

Yes, ironic, isn't it? We waged war against and removed from power a secular government in Iraq in the name of fighting 9/11 type terrorism, when the real culprits (most of them, anyway) were from Saudi Arabia, the country where they have those textbooks, with which the US has a closely allied relationship.

It's like Alice's looking glass world - nothing makes any sense (unless you are in the oil business, in which case, everything makes perfect sense).

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 25 May 06 - 10:12 AM

The only way to solve the muslim problem, anywhere, is to exterminate then!

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: GUEST
Date: 25 May 06 - 10:23 AM

Mr Bush is in the process of trying that DB.

Seems to be working out too costly in men and money.

Poor cannon fodder is still readily available....but money and the spectre of the US tactical retreat from Vietnam   now thats another story....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Alba
Date: 25 May 06 - 10:56 AM

Ake....howz it goin?
Ur yi no loggin in any mare or ur ye away on yir holidays toppin up yer tan on the Costa Del Sol?:)
Warmest Wishes as always
Jude

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 06 - 03:35 AM

Hi Jude....I'm still here but everythings been so peaceful
(and boring) here in sleepy hollow, that I must have nodded off for a few days.
Ach its no like the auld days at all...at all!!
Us scots are go'nae huv tae start a fecht amang oorsell's
Glad to see you can more than hold your own. TC....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 06 - 05:38 PM

It's like Alice's looking glass world - nothing makes any sense (unless you are in the oil business, in which case, everything makes perfect sense). Bingo!!

What i find alarming and confusing is that its the first generation born of immigrant parents who seem to be the most displaced and extreme.Not just muslim kids either my parents are irish i was born in england you wouldnt believe the turmoil dual nationality causes i saw it in the scottish and jamaican kids too. Took me years to get my head round it now i like/hate the irish as much as the english.I now think anybody who defines themselves by nationality or religion is ten bob short.The welcome the immigrants get on arrival can and does have repercussions i was brought up being told i was irish,the jamaican kids as jamaican etc its madness my kids class themselves europeans and hopefully somewhere down the line my descendants will class themselves as global citizens there is no other answer i can imagine.There is a long way to go and i think it will get worse before it gets better shite realy.

bit of a rant that sorry pet peeve of mine.
mac

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 06 - 05:53 PM

The Global family is a mirage my friend.

Think small and long term.

Organisation kills......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: GUEST
Date: 26 May 06 - 06:37 PM

Think small and long term.

Organisation kills.
----------
That is so fecking depressingly negative
and probably true and good advice to a certain extent.I agree that it probably is not going to happen by design but i still think it is inevitable and will happen despite human beings imo.Future societys will have a completely different mindset look how slowly but surely religion and nationality are becoming less relevant its unstopable and theres going to be mayhem in the future at times probably lets hope we evolve with it im not so sure.For some reason most people struggle being individual and need the reassurance of tribal cultural, religious belonging.I dunno i can apreciate your thinking though many a time ive felt like getting all the family together getting a shed in the sticks and shooting any bastard that dares come knocking he he.


mac

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: akenaton
Date: 26 May 06 - 07:08 PM

That's my boy! but dont be depressed.

If you really think about it, it's the Global family myth which is depressing.
Put your faith in reason, the more we try to organise the worse fuck-up we make. Rejoice that at last afew are beginning to question the promise of everlasting "progress", which in effect means the enslavment of the many for the enrichment of the few and real happiness and freedom for no one.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 06 - 09:21 AM

The US does a lot of things wrong--Exhibit A of course the Iraq war--but in one area, it has the right idea: every child born in the US--including to illegal immigrant parents-- is automatically a citizen of the US. I believe this is not the case anywhere in Europe--correct me if I'm wrong.

This makes all these children feel part of the US from day 1--and gives them a voice and a stake in its success.

Compare for instance, France--a huge and growing Moslem underclass who do not feel part of the country--with few prospects of change.



On a related topic, I've read that Germany had the idea to emulate the success of the US "green card" in attracting talented people--with a "German green card". But it was a total flop.   Reason: it had no path to German citizenship.



Now of course in the US we have towering intellects who want to END the automatic citizenship for children of illegal immigrants.

Right--let's throw away the main reason the US hasn't had immigrant riots recently (protests are NOT the same).

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Alba
Date: 27 May 06 - 09:45 AM

While I agree Ron that the Children of Illegal Immigrants obtain automatic Citizenship to the US.
That fact creates another dilemma I think.
What do the Illegal Parents of the Children, who are now legal US Citizens, do if they are 'found out' and then ordered to be deported back to their Country of origin?
{Maybe that comes under GWB's "no Child left behind" policy..:( }
These Children are now US Citizens due to Birth right but that does not legalize or affect their Parents status in any way.
Catch 22?

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 May 06 - 10:27 AM

Any child born in Britain is a citizen, whoever the parents are.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 May 06 - 12:25 PM

Keith--including illegal immigrant parents? Do you know this? Source?

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: GUEST
Date: 27 May 06 - 07:31 PM

No you are classed as a citizen if you are born in the uk its if you feel like one,A lot of immigrants retain their culture and bring up their children in it.It takes a couple of generations to iron it out
i mean look at st patricks day in the states harmless and lovely but ridiculous,its not always this harmless
its a powerful force your culture i just think if we were all the same bloody culture it would be one less thing we can feck up and fight about.I can imagine way down the line it being about the planet as a whole and not just our own little bit.How many british and american and allied countries citizens were swayed by nationalistic ferver and made to feel unpatriotic if they didnt agree with the agression .I just cannot see many positives in defining ourselves so divisivley.political globalisation has to be the end game i want a say on the planet as a whole when i vote and so should everybody else imo.Bottom line for me its inevitably going to happen best we accept it now and demand a say in shaping it or were fecked we need to get savvy with it and organise and vote with like minded individuals from all nations.
         excuse typos /spelling
   mac

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 06 - 01:40 PM

"You are classed as a citizen" if you are born in the UK. Including to illegal immigrant parents?   Still waiting for source.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: GUEST
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:59 PM

Including to illegal immigrant parents?

No

mac

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:25 PM

In the US a child born to illegal immigrant parents is a citizen. As I said earlier, the US has done a lot of things wrong (e.g. the Iraq war)--but declaring that every child born to illegal immigrants in the US is a citizen is a good move--for the reasons I cited earlier.

Here's hoping that the Neanderthals on the Right now trying to change this are not successful.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: pdq
Date: 28 May 06 - 08:42 PM

This thread is about the Netherlands and one Muslim woman and it has a misleading title.

Since illegal immigration is the #1 topic in the US right now, maybe we need a new thread on that subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 May 06 - 07:49 AM

pdq,

"Muslim woman who sought asylum in the Netherlands and then became one of its foremost critics of Muslim intolerance."

The thread is about the fact that the Netherlands "solved" its Muslim problem by getting rid of the person talking about it. Sarcastic title, but I think it to be appropriate.




A thread on illegal immigration would be good- I keep hearing all the anti-Bushites here agreeing with Bush, but refusing to acknowledge that there might be something he could do right.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Donuel
Date: 29 May 06 - 09:19 PM

artbrooks, the charge of lying about ones age on an application is right up there with lying about a blow job while under oath regarding the highest national security matter of White Water real estate purchases.

I think there is an undercurrent that manufactures such "serious" charges. Be it racism sexism upityism or ismism, I bet she keeps her citizenship to fight for minority rights. If she gives in easily, then her profile of courage will appear a bit thin.

Subject: RE: BS: Netherlands solves Muslim problem
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 May 06 - 01:49 PM

The whole affair was a political play with wrong roles, wrong arguments and wrong outcomes.

There is "Iron Rita" Verdonk, a right wing minister of the government who was criticised harshly in and out of parliament and had to take back her decision. She looks at the first glance the loser but her popularity ratings have gone up sharply and she seems to be quite happy about the whole affair. She probably will run for prime minister next time for her liberal party. The liberal party, like in so many European countries, is a rightleaning party, not at all liberal in an American sense.

Her approach to the "Muslim problem" (and to immigration in general) is a very uncompromising stance: Rules must be obeyed at all (human) costs. She and Hirsi Ali are soal mates when it comes to criticising Muslim fundamentalism. Foreigners have to adapt to the Dutch way of life or leave. Multiculturalism is not on her agenda.

On the other side was a left wing TV magazine whose journalists don't like Verdonk's way. These journalists have been critical of Verdonk for deeds like deporting a student who had grown up in the Netherlands just a few weeks before her diploma examination. These journalists would prefer Verdonk to change her way of rules must be obeyed at all costs to a more individualised and sensible approach.

Then the TV magazine made a big miscalculation. They thought if they would point publicly (the facts were known already ) to Hirsi Ali as an offender Rita would not act with the same relentlessness, because she knew Hirsi Ali to be on her side in the "fight of cultures" and because she was prominent and in the same party as Verdonk. Had Rita acted as the journalists had thought they would have said can't she be a bit more generous in other cases as well. Their real aim was of course not to get Hirsi Ali out, for they lean much more to the multicultural side. By telling publicly that Hirsi Ali should also be evicted they wanted tio amke the other evictions more difficult.

They had miscalculated, for Rita said "thanks for telling me" and acted as relentless as in all other cases. No wonder her approval ratings went up. Nearly nobody got what they wanted. Verdonk has not changed her policy and still takes the hardline approach. Verdonk has lost an ally (Hirsi Ali). The journalists got what they asked for and not what they really wanted.

But there is one group who is really glad: Friends of the murderer of Van Gogh, Muslim fundamentalists, have sent the journalists a derisive letter of thank you together with a bouquet of flowers (publicly of course) for helping to get rid of Hirsi Ali.

Wolfgang