BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you

Subject: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:59 AM

When I say Bush's I mean the conservative economic model of giving all the money and tax breaks and bail outs and unlocked deregulated banks to the VERY wealthy.

Home equity? up or down?

401K ?

Loved ones ?

Job?

Respect?

Trust?

Fear?

Health?

Hope?


But put conservatism in charge of the state, and it behaves very differently. Now the "values" that rightist politicians eulogize on the stump disappear, they declare war on public workers. They have made a cult of outsourcing and privatizing, they have wrecked established federal operations because they disagree with them, and they have deliberately piled up an Everest of debt in order to force the government into crisis. The ruination they have wrought has been thorough; it has been a professional job.

But has it helped you somehow? Even if it only in your faith in God?

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:02 AM

I think we have lost about $100,000 and a future cost that can not be measured. At least we haven't lost our children.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Wesley S
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM

I'm inclined to say that this thought process is a waste of energy. Better that we put that effort into electing the right person for the next term of office. It's going to be a close election. And there's a lot to be done in the next few weeks.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 11:56 AM

Get it on, laddie-bucks. Promote yer man.



A

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: kendall
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 12:58 PM

The neo cons have destroyed my country. The democrats have stood by and allowed it to happen. A pox on the whole damn gang; they re all tarred with the same brush.
It's the same old case of Twiddle Dum and Twiddle Dee. Twiddle DUMB has had his way, so let's go back to Twiddle Dee.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:00 PM

Strange how anyone not beating on a Hate Bush drum is labeled pro Bush.

I think that method of bullying, er, debating is covered in the logical fallacy 101 course as a False Dichotomy.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:05 PM

So how much have you lost?
Its not about you being a loser,
its about which criminals assualted you.
Its about a passion for justice.

Perhaps I have a more messy French idea of democracy and justice than others, but it is valuable to ask what you have lost.

EHy? Because the Republicans are saying that you are better off than you were 8 years ago.

Could that possibly be true for any of you?

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:08 PM

You are quite right, Sawz; "not hating" is different than "supporting". Good on you for insisting on a rational distinction.

As for bullying, would you like a list of Bushy dirty tricks and bullying strategems (firing attorneys-general for lack of fealty comes to mind)? Just so you can be on the alert for them in case anyone tries to brainwash you.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Stringsinger
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:10 PM

We have to support those who defend our democratic values. Dennis Kucinich, Cindy Sheehan, and others like them who are willing to sacrifice their personal safety and
comfort to ring the bell of freedom whether Americans are deaf to it or not.

There are some Dems who will support our Democracy. Not all.

There are even some Conservatives who will as well.

The Democratic Party has been corrupted by the DLC. The Republican Party is
just plain corrupt.

Bush has robbed America. McCain is no friend to the US. He needs a dishonorable
discharge.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM

Nothing from me or mine, I've just checked

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:19 PM

Well then it must be just fine for everyone.

I am truly surprised!

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:29 PM

I don't think so.

The net impact of the current economic downturn is probably on the order of 100-200K in asset value, lost opportunity, and related consequences. The big items, such as having a country one can be proud of for its reputation in the world, believing in one's country because of its principles, the security of knowing one is living under the umbrella of unshakeable constiututional protections--the loss of these things is without measure in dollars.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 01:55 PM

In the business world the US now has a reputaion just beneath child molester.

Right wingers and lefties alike are going to fall through the glass floor first proposed by Reagan who felt Americans deserved evetything they want or need right now.

Beliee me when you fall through glass, you will get some on you and will be lucky to not be lacerated.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: bankley
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:46 PM

I don't have the energy to hate anyone.... I remember when the Prez. came to Ottawa a few years back, I joined in a large demonstration on Parliament Hill... it was surreal, black choppers wheeling around, search lights 'burnt like battery acid through Nagasaki silk'... riot squad standing by.... very peaceful from our side..
I did manage to salute Condi with one finger on a side street away from the side show, she didn't stop her limo to discuss it.
... it felt good... went back home with a copy of Steve Earle's new CD "The Revolution Starts Now"... at that point we had just committed troops to Afghanistan and our first casualties were from USAF friendly fire.... nothing like speed and smart bombs... we now have 97 dead... in Mr. Bush's neverending war on terror... so we have lost a lot as a country... the world is much worse off for his contribution to it... meanwhile his Daddy is raking in the big bucks, brokering Fed. land sales, including Indian land, to private speculators.... I could go on... but you all are well informed..
good luck with your new Leader....wish us luck with ours.. we're all watching....

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Peace
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:56 PM

"How much have the Bush's taken from you"

Not one damned thing that citizens didn't allow the bastards to take.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 02:57 PM

"... it felt good... "

Now there is the real motivation, although people have a hard time admitting that without obfuscating it with excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 03:58 PM

Sawz:

My tactic is to continue to communicate about the fatal flaws int he Bush Administration and its criminal culpabilities.

I have said several times that I do not hate Bush as an individual; but the impact of his substandard thinking processes have been severe on my country and I won't stand for it without speaking up.

If you think I have specifically criticized him -- myself -- on some point, by all means say so.

If you dislike the viewpoints I sometimes report on in the Popular Views threads, by all means respond to them to the otriginal media which I always cite, or by general comment. But don't make the mistake of implying all those views come directly from me, as they simply do not.

A

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 04:27 PM

I fortunatley have been pretty stable the last few years. I know many have lost ground; some have gained from low interest rates, which still continue to amaze me. Some have jobs. Some have houses. Medical bills are a huge problem because the latest "cures" cost more than you can make in a dozen years sometimes. So I am among the lucky. mg

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: GUEST,T.O.
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:21 PM

I have lost everything. My job, my house, my insurance, you name it. My father lost his job in the first Bush administration so I guess it's my turn. I saw some financial "experts" on Fox news today and they were blaming the American public for the financial crisis and saying Bush has us on the right track. They said we were being insane by taking out the loans that were being offered.Everytime you turned on the tv , or went to the mailbox, or listened to the radio for years that is all you heard and saw. "Need cash? Well our loan is just for you." One "expert" actually said "Not everyone needs to go to college." of course that statement was following a remark about people taking out a loan for college. There is nothing I can say that hasn't been said before. Everything I had 3 years ago is gone everything. The only thing to say is look at the stock market. That is where our country is heading.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 05:50 PM

It is not just courageous to admit your real situation it is a deeply personal thing to do.
You are a brother to us all, and as such we all need not be quiet about something which was not our fault.

We need to tell the truth.

What was done was not out of ignorance or the failt of one idiot son of a CIA director, Vice President under Reagan and President of the United States.

IT WAS DELIBERATE. ALL OF IT. (escept the idiot blitzkreig strategy of our pre emptive invasion without an exit clue) But obscene war Spending was indeed deliberate. The think tank cries for deregulation for 20 years was all deliberate.

They finally got want they wanted and devoured it all and when that was gone they borrowed against the full faith and credit of the United States, and now that is gone... Not many investors overseas anymore unless they are buying up our country for pennies on the dollar.

if we remain silent, the rapist will go after someone else or smugly feel they got away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:00 PM

Well, to answer Donuel's specific questions, and limiting the answers to the current Bush:

Home equity? up or down? Down in the last year, but I couldn't say by how much - probably doubled in the seven years we've owned this house, plus we've paid the mortgage down by well over half.

401K ? Up about 50% in the seven years since I retired and stopped putting money in it. Down 17% in the past year.

Loved ones ? All fine, no worries

Job? I'm retired, with two inflation-indexed pensions.

Respect? All fine, no worries

Trust? Who? The government? Not then and not now.

Fear? Of what, specifically?

Health? All fine, no worries

Hope? Of course

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:08 PM

Thanks, artbrooks. Another rare post of sanity in this ever-deteriorating tone of Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:20 PM

Tone?

"I want you to get up, I want you to get up and go to the window and yell I'm mad as hell, thats right yell, I'm mad as hell and i'm not going to take this anymore."

that tone?

pdq
Honesty is revealing but the informtion of surviving the Bush administration unscathed is BY NO MEANS MORE SANE than someone who is not unscathed!

nor do I think you directly intened to say that.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Joe Offer
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:24 PM

Well, I'd guess the Bushes took about 25 percent of my net worth, but then the Clinton/Gores took another 25 percent when they privatized my government job and sold it off to Big Business (which ended up costing the taxpayers a lot more, too). Clinton and Gore were NOT friends of labor.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: pdq
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 06:33 PM

Since George W. Bush took office, my house has gone up in valve. Up 220% by Jun 2006, down 20% since.

That probably has little to do with the president. Most of what happens just happens and nobody can be blamed, but nobody really deserves credit. Please give all this hatred a rest for a while, please.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 07:32 PM

FIrst indexate your value. Then wait for this to bottom out. In the UK it is going a long way down. I'm about £100K out since Xmas, more like £200K if you take the value of my home too. If you indexate the values byinflation since I bought, it's worse.

House values in the UK are going to about 30% of face value of where they were just before Xmas.

Whose fault? the US sub-prime crisis and that was the direct and obvious consequence of lending deregulation and Gordon Gecko greed. Top of the hit list, the dimmest presidents of the US of all time, Ronnie Ray-Gun and Dumbya - and of course the Milk-Snatcher - and the particular economists (read "apologists for theft") they espoused.

Hate? Of course I do. To borrow a line from the Irish, you have raped my motherland.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 08:39 PM

If you have been forclosed you will also lose the right to vote.
If you have been forclosed you will also lose the right to vote.
If you have been forclosed you will also lose the right to vote.
If you have been forclosed you will also lose the right to vote.
Some people in Michigan have complained. I'm glad they did not
remain silent. They are mostly African American.

Your address is quckly and automaticly erased from voter registration records, thnks to the diligence of certain pwople who thought this is a good thing. They will make sure no one using a foreclosed address will vote.

Joe, Clinton moved so far to the right and look what it got him, impeached by the guys he was trying to please.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: artbrooks
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:00 PM

Ownership of property is not a requirement to vote in any jurisdiction in the US. An address change is very easy to file. A voter does need to take the responsibility to find the voting place that corresponds to his or her new address.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:02 PM

This is how it is done.
Concerned people go to the County registrar and get the list of forclosed homes.
The concerned citiaens then mail a first class letter the addresses on the list with the phrase PLEASE RETURN TO SENDER
Concerned citizens then present these returned letters and challenge the names to be removed from the voting register.


Have you suddenly had your vote challenged and had to fill out an envelope at the polls?


ITs not funny but this was done to me twice but not my wife who indeed lives at the same address as me.
I still suspect the GOP County boss who lives across the street of this and several other libalous things.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:20 PM

For more info read the book 'How to fix an election' (confessions of a republican operative)

also MSNBC has info on the Oberman show.


The above technique has a name... it is called caging.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: kendall
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:38 PM

I bought my house three years ago. It has steadily decreased in value, yet I pay the same property tax. Even if it had gone up in value, what good is that unless I sell? All I get is an INCREASE in property tax, and I would have to buy another on the same inflated market. I see no way to win here.

I also live on a pension, and in spite of the rising cost of living, I still get the same amount each month while the buying power steadily drops.
Am I better off than I was 8 years ago? Are you shitting me?

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 09:54 PM

My home worth is $207,000 more than when GWB took office (in constant dollars), but it's still September. Ask me in October.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:10 PM

The housing bubble and its collapse were not W's fault. First, the subject was beyond his ken. Even if he were a genius beyond the level of our greatest financial public servants, he would have had to have dictatorial powers to stop it.

The fault lies first with greed of buyers, second with the greed and incompetence of our elected representatives in the Legislature and the Executive, in a glorious bipartisanship.

We are getting what we deserve.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:28 PM

And by that I don't mean anyone (such as kendall)'s personal situation - being forced to deal with the situation as it was, while needing to buy a home, for instance. However, collectively, people en masse were biting off more than was economically prudent. Not rational.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Amos
Date: 17 Sep 08 - 10:40 PM

Sawz:

I post the things I find that I believe will be if interest.

You have no obligation to read them.


A

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 12:07 AM

.. and if you do read them, yu have no obligation to understand or to deny them.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 01:37 AM

Well, before Bush was elected I had a yoyo. It was a good one. Green with a very strong string, and I could throw the thing pretty good. I can't find that darn thing anywhere although I have looked everywhere for it. Since Bush is to blame for just about anything that comes down the pike, I suppose he is responsible for my lost yoyou. Oh well.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:10 AM

heric "not Bushs fault"

Yes and NO, he was selected and pushed into office at all costs all the way to the SUpreme COurt because he would support deregulation which is the key to the treasury for the wealthy.

The govermnment official in charge of overseeing Freddie and Fannie made an emergency appointment with the White House regarding needed regulation this summer and he remarked

"the only response I got from the White House was a one finger salute"

Business since the 1930's have a popular phrase "Competant government workers is the worst possible person"

heric I vow what I tell you is true, the trillions of dollars of loss was all intentional. Afterall the $ goes somewhere before the promised $ dissappears.

What was not intentional was triggering a worldwide collapse.

You see the US unlike the 1920's has very little manufacturing base to get up and running to support the people. Even our farms are corporate giants that can throw up their arms and walk away.

so yes and no, it was not W's fault although if he were more than a figurehead for deregulation and the policies of the Rand Corporation and Hertiage and 6 more think tanks that work only to make laws for the wealthy "captains of industry".

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:27 AM

The more centralized banks become until there is only one or two left, the control by the larger owners is total. There are fewer faces to deal with but that is good for the largest owners who profited by shorting everything until there was only one.

The one world government is financial at its heart.
The Bush 41's need of a New World Order is well underway.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: kendall
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:45 AM

When Phil Gramm rammed through a bill to DEregulate the whole money making scheme and John McCain went along with it, and now has Gramm as his adviser, who can say it was all the fault of greedy buyers getting in over their heads?
As Garrison Keillor said, "The lottery is a tax on people who don't do well in math." Same idea.

Doug, you are not often that silly. Surely you can do better than that?

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:37 AM

I have faith that the supreme being (God, if you will) will ensure that this, too, will pass. And that the Right and the Righteous (i.e., the Republicans) will lose such devastating and greedy control over the country I love and whose institutions of freedom, which I cherish, have been relentlessly eroded by their greedy grasp of power and capital.

A substantial amount of the deregulation that has caused recent woes goes back to the Reagan era.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: MAG
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:59 AM

I've lost job security and 10% of my retirement savings. If I lose my job, I'll also lose my house.

Any chance the mortgage crisis is caused by people being out of work??

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: heric
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:29 PM

Oh, I answered a day early - the numbers just came out. My home is worth $37,800 dollars less than yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: bankley
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 03:33 PM

when will we finally bring these murdering, thieving thugs to justice?    now that will 'feel real good'.... the ghost of Pinochet is restless, George....

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Donuel
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:15 PM

They did this intentionally . It has been set up for 8 years.
All the added spying on citizens and the executive branch homeland security troops that go where the FBI would not are designed to be first responders to any possible anger blowback by Americans.

Be that as it may I have always taken up the mantle of looking over the hill and reporting what I see. Other people here have different modes of chronicling what has already happened.


HERE IT IS....
They say all these bail outs are unprecedented...
They are only warming up for the biggest rip off of all history. It will be like firing a cannon in comparison to pulling the trigger on the Wall Street bailuouts you've seen so far.



Between the war and Wall Street, so far we have seen a minimum of 3 trillion dollars leave our country. ( gee we really coulda used some of that for natural disasters and infrastructure and free health care and that vacation you wished you could have before you died)

GET READY FOR DOUBLE THAT

The mother of all bail outs is coming......mark my words

They will claim it is less than a trillion dollar generic bailout but with interest ect. it will be an additional $3 TRILLION.

Thats a $6 Trillion dollar heist.

don't forget the $93 Trillion dollar fraud sale of worthless mortgage securities we sold the world as triple top shelf most secure investments on Earth.

and its all coming to you before Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: DougR
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:57 PM

Kendall: "Often that silly?"

I resent that!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:57 AM

Doug, you are not often that silly. Surely you can do better than that?

Don't bet too much money on it.

Subject: RE: BS: How much have the Bush's taken from you
From: fumblefingers
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 01:11 PM

If you have been forclosed you will also lose the right to vote.
If you have been forclosed you will also lose the right to vote.
If you have been forclosed you will also lose the right to vote.
If you have been forclosed you will also lose the right to vote.
Some people in Michigan have complained. I'm glad they did not
remain silent. They are mostly African American.

Your address is quckly and automaticly erased from voter registration records, thnks to the diligence of certain pwople who thought this is a good thing. They will make sure no one using a foreclosed address will vote.

Nonsense