Advice on acoustic bass guitars

Subject: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: wilco
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 10:15 AM

Need some advice. I want to learn to play base, and I've never played base before. I play mostly bluegrass and old gospel music, with guitar, harmonica, banjo, and autoharp.
    Can you find an acoustic base guitar that has enough volume to play in those formats, without amplification? I've found insturments by Martin, Alvarez, Epiphones, and Fenders. I want volume, and does the cutaway sacrifice any volume?

Thanks!!!!

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: GUEST,boromir
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 11:35 AM

The bigger the 'box' the bigger the sound.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 11:47 AM

It's not as simlpe as that, boromir. Many other factors come into play. I'll leave it for someone who knows more than me to explain.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Charcloth
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 12:03 PM

Most of those are designed expecting you to use some sort of amplification. But I have had the pleasure to play @ a campfire on at least one occassion with a fellow using one of those & he held up well enough alongside my openback banjo. I was impressed. It sure is a lot easier to tote than a big old "doghouse." Even if you carry a small "practice" amp, they are still more portable than a doghouse.
I don't play base myself, but I too have considered getting one of these, so I would also would like more input on this topic.
Charcloth

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: smallpiper
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 12:07 PM

pm bassic, he plays one in sessions with great success

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: JedMarum
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 12:12 PM

Yes - first of alll it's bass guitar!! Secondly, I have played a lot of the bass guitars out there, even the ones whose fans say they have the best bass freqeuncy resonse - I believe not one of them touches the real guiatr qualities of the Martin acoustic bass.

This is a well built, nice looking GREAT SOUNDING instrument - and it is the ONLY one I know of that has the 'stand up to the acoustic' volume; that is, you can play, sound great and compete in volume with a bunch of real acoustic instrument players. NONE of the others can do this without amplification.

It's a great instrument; great neck, great sound, moderate price (Elderly has one without electronics for under $1,000). I like this B1 model. The Fishman electronics are far superior (I had one with Martin's own, and the pick-up was mediocre). I see all the Elderly products have Fishman.

The guitar's rims are laminated but the back is solid mahogany and the top is solid spruce. This is important, I believe. The solid back and top make a great sounding instrument. I have played a couple of their other models that did have as good a sound.

Check out this instrument. You will NOT be disappointed.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Les from Hull
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 01:36 PM

Most acoustic bass guitars don't have a lot of volume. In a medium-sized room in a pub the sound starts to get lost with half a dozen other players, maybe fewer.

I do like my Ovation acoustic bass, but if you expect to hear it in a noisy session you have to play it pretty hard, like most other affordable acoustic basses.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 03:18 PM

Regal makes a resonator (Dobro) acoustic bass that is supposed to have great volume. I haven't had the opportunity to try one out but they sure sound like a good idea and the price is very reasonable. Click here for a link to a New Mexico store that carries them. Gotta be somebody in Tennesse selling them too.

Bruce

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: wilco
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 05:39 PM

Thank you for input. Anybody got a source for those huge base guitars used in mariachi bands? I relaize that yo're supposed to misspell base to bass, but around here, a bass is a fish.

Thanks!!!!!

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Kudzuman
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 06:37 PM

Well Jed, I just played one of those Martin Basses and it was pretty puny I thought. Weirdly enough I had played one of those (Martins) and then on a strange whim picked up of all things a Hohner Acoustic Bass with the Triangular cutaway.....Wham!! What a sound! Drove the Martin in the ground. Had a friend play the Martin side by side with me and nobody in the store could even hear the Martin. The only difference was the Hohner was VERY affordable. $400 with the Hardshell Case (used). It's a monster with full EQ and onboard elctronics if you want to go that route. Played with a Bluegrass group the other night and no problems unplugged. The name doesn't have the "Martin" mystique, but I was looking for sound not names and I got it!!

Kudzuman

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Mark Ross
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 06:39 PM

Check out the Guild version, it has a deeper body and incredible sound.

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 07:05 PM

The J.B. Player acoustics can be had new on ebay for around $300 and play purdy decent. They also have an interanl pickup in case you want to plug it in.

As fir playing the danged things? Hmmmmmmmmmm? If you can play a 6 string, you can play these things without breakin' a sweat! Just put on a few of yer favorite CD's and after three or four songs, the *light* will come on and you'll be a bass player. I promise. Easy!

Bobert

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Mr Happy
Date: 27 Dec 02 - 09:04 PM

base?

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: GUEST,bassic away from home
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 09:27 AM

My Axe for the last 3 years has been a Fender Acustic (with pickup and internal eq)Cant tell you the Model cos its at home and I am not!
I regularly play in acustic sessions against 2 or more fiddles, a couple of guitars, mandolin, smallpipes and various boxes (noisy buggers!) The fender seems to cope very well and pushes a big sound out front. The difficulty is in hearing yourself when behind the instrument! Tried various makes before I settled on the Fender, all side by side in the same store. The Fender had the best sound/volume/playability/cost compromise and has been robust in regular use. It cost me about £350 which usualy means about the same in Dollars when buying equivalent in the States so I am told. The secret of the Fender, I find, is that it can be played very hard, lots of energy from left hand fingers, without sounding twangy and just plain bad which few other Basses will stand. You will need to develop fingers like a Blacksmith to get the most out of it tho!! Les`s Ovation is nice to play but has half the volume of my Fender. Strings can make a big difference. Had a new set on about 6 months ago and when I broke one and put one of the original strings back on as a replacement the difference was striking. Well worth experimenting with strings if you can afford it. Still doing this myself but no conclusions as yet. About 10 years ago I also had an Ecko accustic Bass which I also had great service from and which also threw out a big sound. Worth trying if you can find one. Good luck, let us know what you decide.

Bass(ic)

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: jimmyt
Date: 28 Dec 02 - 08:37 PM

Wilco,

Call Greg Elder at American Way Sales and Music, 706 6958630 Chatsworth GA (about an hour from you.) He had a very nice moderate acoustic Bass Guitar, I think it was a TAKOMA. It had a big gutsy sound as close as an upright as I have ever heard. Tell him Jim Todd sent you. He is a good guy and he may let you take it on trial for a night or 2. jimmyt

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Spartacus
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 10:31 AM

DON'T DO IT MAN! I've heard various acoustic bases played in quiet rooms over the years. I've seen them on stage many times and had them next to me on stage many times. I have yet to hear one loud enough. (I've heard the martin, the guild, and the (awful) tacoma)
You're much better off finding a $1,500 upright. Even a cheap upright sounds better than any of those giant acoustic basses.
Most of the acoustic bases never stay in tune, are'nt audible without re-enforcement, and...well.....sorry to go on a rant here.....
I would say "no"

-spartacus

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic BASS guitars
From: GUEST,Vintage Martin
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 10:57 AM

Are all these acoustic bass guitars you folks are talking about fretless?
Is there an advantage, from a folk music perspective, to not having frets?
And isn't it a lot harder to learn to play a fretless bass?

VM

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: jimmyt
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 11:11 AM

Sparticus and Vintage Martin, I couldn't agree more. I play an upright acoustic bass, and to me there is no substitute. Fretless I think does have some inherant difficulties in as much as you better damn well have a good ear as the frets make it so that anyone who is on the right fret will be in tune provided the instrument is in tune. I watch fretted bass guitar players play those dramatic runs sometimes with envy as most of us mortals we will never be able to match that on the acousic, but still, all in all, I don't think their is a match for the acoustic upright. My reference to the Takoma was from someone who knows little or nothing about guitarlike instruments, but I heard it played and it sounded ok in the music store. PLaying on a gig, however is a much different matter

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 11:42 AM

There is no acoustic bass that will even be on the same plane as the upright bass. I am talking about the quality of sound, the volume of sound and the playability (that is what you can do with the instrument). BUT - assuming you want a bass guitar, my money is still on the Martin bass. I know I could do so much more with this instrument then I could with any other acoustic bass I tried. I loved the sound (rich guitar like qualities) and found the volume quite good - and I never found any other model that could complete with the Martin's volume - not to discount the testimony of others in this thread who disagree. I am simply passing on my experience.

If you're only an hour away from Elderly, I suggest yuo really consider getting in your car one day and making the drive out there. Spend a few hours, talk to the folks there, try every instrument, listen to their opinions (but make up your own mind). There is almost nowhere better in the US to make such a trip. Elderly has a great collection of acoustic instruments, they have knowledgeable folks working there, and they are very 'customer' oriented. I never felt "put upon by the sales force" as I do in most other high dollar/high volume music stores.

I promise you you can find an instrument you'd be happy with at a price you can afford, if you take the time to look. And I think Elderly is a great place to look.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Spartacus
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 11:46 AM

Jed,
   You have alot more faith in the staff at Elderly than I do...


-Spartacus

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 12:07 PM

Well Spartacus - I am assuming that Wilco will use his own discretion. I don;t say he should put himself in the hands of the Elderly staff - I say he could do well to tap their knowledge and expereince, but I recognize that not everyone of Elderly's staff is an expert, or even one whose opinions I might value - BUT I suspect Wilco is smart enough to make that determination for himself.

I DO have a lot of respect for Elderly, but that is based upon one in-store visit, several on-line purchases and many many visits to their website for valuable info.

But MOST importantly, I say that because Elderly is the type of place where you can walk in, spend hours and hours actually playing the instruments you want to consider, compare and do so without some commission paid sales type with a long haire attitude trying to sell you what makes HIM the most money, and trying to convince you he knows what is coolest. I love that type of store. I want to see lots and lots of available instruments (good instruments) and I want to have the time and freedom to play 'em all! The I want someone nearby in case I have a question. Maybe I'll buy, maybe I just want to play all their cool instruments!

I am quite knowledgeable about instruments. I know how they're made, who makes 'em, what they ought to sound like, how they ought to play and ho wmuch they ought to cost. I don't need a lot of help from a sales person - BUT I enjoy the exploration and like to share my enthusiasm ... the best sales folks, in my mind, share my enhthusiasm. I get this feeling at Elderly. I am smart enough to get the value I need out of my business transactions with these guys, and capabale of beating a vendor into getting a fair deal if things go bad - but I've never had anything but good luck in my transactions with Elderly.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Spartacus
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 12:14 PM

Jed,

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Spartacus
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 12:19 PM

Ooops...
Jed,
    I could'nt agree more about the atmosphere in Elderly. I work 5 miles away and live about 20 miles away from the store. I wander in there when I have spare time on some days, just to play around the the banjo's I can't afford, and to pick some guitars I would never pay that much for. But, I've played some shows in Lansing, and I know some of the staff/musicians there as well. There are precious few people I'd ask advice of on that sales floor....the repair department is similar.   Overall, it's one of my favorite stores, I'm just a little leary of guitar shop guys. They remind me of the comic book shop owner on "the Simpsons"

-Spartacus

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: JedMarum
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 12:34 PM

I hear ya Spartacus. Maybe I was being generous when I said they had knowledgeable staff - they do have some knowledgeable satff, because I spoke to a couple - but many music stores have a lotta wanna bees working the floor ... I hate to be unkind, but it seems to be generally true. Too many folks who know a "hot lick" or two, a few chords and lotta music business lingo want to work the music stores.

I guess I'm just used to sorting through those folks quickly, finding the ones I like and talking only them! LOL

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Dec 02 - 12:39 PM

Ha, Ha! You mean the owner of "The Android's Dungeon" Spartacus?

We have many 'comics and Dungeons and Dragons stores' in Toronto now, but about twenty years ago there was just one. A sarcastic wag that I know used to call it "The Home of the Dateless".

By the way, ever notice how the ownere of those MIlitary memorabilia stores always resemble the Simpsons' character as well (the one with one arm). I think I'd always be suspicious of someone who's life's ambition is to find a set of Goering's underwear.

Back to Bass-ics.

I have to agree with Bassic that the Fender (a VERY cheaply made instrument) puts out more sound than any of them. I've played virtually all the instruments mentioned here (other than the Takoma) and the only REALLY loud one was the EKO, but those have been long gone for many years.

Jed, your comments about the Martin are interesting. I've played a few of them and although they're well made (as are The Larrivee and Taylor) I didn't find the amplitude much at all.

HOWEVER.....

Just so the catters in this thread have a little extra info to go on.....I HAVE FOUND that Jed Marum is perhaps the LOUDEST player on an acoustic instrument I've ever heard. Might that have something to do with it? It's a combination of how Jed uses his right hand angle plus a couple of other things. So.....maybe Jed...you get a lot more outta that Martin than others might.

Cheers

Rick

P.S. I was gonna make a joke about an acoustic bass guitar being so easy to play....and that I even saw someone use a capo on one.....but then I actually remember a bluegrass guy useing an ELASTIC CAPO on a stand up bass!! Nope, he had no shame, ha ha!

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Spartacus
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 10:22 AM

Rick,
I'm glad you got the reference...i say that to people from time to time and get blank looks...

The capo on the bass thing is hilarious...

-spartacus

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 10:28 AM

I know a really good local bas guitarist, good singer, good musician all 'round. He plays mostly a four string fretless, (great sound). And I've seen him slap a capo on the thing! I was floored the first time I saw it, and thought, "no self respecting bassist would ...." then I realized that was the point; he was a damn good player - he didn't give a sh*t what any self respecting bass player, or anyone else might think! Whatever the advantage he sought by using a capo, he got. It worked, it sounded great, and who cares!

I still get a chuckle outta that.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: jimmyt
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 10:34 AM

Jed and Rick, I was going to say, As an acoustic upright player, I sure look at those damn capos with envy sometimes! grin

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Spartacus
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 10:39 AM

Don't get me wrong...the capo is my guitars best friend...I have a kyser on my headstock at all times during a show...but on a bass?...you only have 4 strings.

Spartacus

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: jimmyt
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 10:45 AM

Easy to say that when you have all those frets!!! grin

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: JedMarum
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 11:04 AM

LOL - I also undertand, even with only four strings, that sometimes you just want to use the scale forms that you know really well, and when someone hits you with F# - you just don't wanna be bothered with it! So you sslap on a capo! Guitarists have it easy, everybody uses a capo, and for lotsa good reasons ... why the hell shouldn't a bassist?? Even, God willing, and string bassist!

;-)

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Mark Ross
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 12:21 PM

Hell, Tommy Jackson even invented a fiddle capo to use for Nashville sessions(in the '50's).

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 08:11 PM

Rick.........where did we see a fiddler take a Kyser and turn it upside down and use it on a fiddle? I told the fiddle player in our band and she tried it and loved it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 09:04 PM

Hi Mick. I've never seen that, but I think Jeri has.

Rick

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 09:43 PM

That's it, buddy. She did it at the Getaway. I cracked up. I forget what key I was singing in at practice, might have been Eb and the fiddler was grumbling. I told her about the capo, she muttered, tried it and laughed. But it worked.

BTW, want to sell that Fender bass?

Mick

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Cluin
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 10:08 PM

Playing a session with my fiddling cousin once and when I finished a song in some fiddle-not-so-friendly key and reached for my pint, he demanded to know where his fiddle capo was. So I pulled my Kyser off the headstock and handed it to him. He slapped it on his fiddle and played a quick tune on his two middle strings, laughing all the time. Didn't sound all that sweet but it wasn't bad either. The guy can play.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Jeri
Date: 30 Dec 02 - 11:36 PM

I think I might have used the Kyser at the Getaway, but Schubb works better because it's adjustable. It's too easy to push the Kyser out of position. It would probably work even better if you chopped off some of it so it didn't hang over the side of the neck, and that overhang is the hardest part about playing with the capo.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Bassic
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:37 AM

You lot have really got me thinking now, if a capo works on a fiddle then why not a cello?..................I will report back when I find a suitable capo! (I may be some time!!!!!!)

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: C-flat
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:47 AM

I played in an accoustic jazz trio with a guy on accoustic bass guitar but still found that we needed to amplify it to get it to really underpin the music. It wasn't long before he switched to an upright and, although far less portable, had a great accoustic resonance.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: jimmyt
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 08:49 AM

See, contrary to a lot of folks who complain about thread creep,I think this is an example of where it can lead you!1 We started out about a good reliable Bass Buitar, and it has evolved into lots of interesting and worthwhile info ending of all places on violin capos!!! LONG LIVE THREAD CREEP!~ lol

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Cluin
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 12:18 PM

Who is this Thread Creep guy anyway?

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: GUEST,Thomb
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 03:36 PM

I( have a Tanglewood "Allouette" 4-string accoustic Bass Guitar which is quite good in a "not too-well-populated session.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: GUEST,celtic cousin
Date: 31 Dec 02 - 04:04 PM

None...repeat none of the aforementioned acoustic basses even come close to the sound of an upright. That being said the only ones even approaching(from a sizable distance, I might add)are the Guild B30, B50(if you can find one)or the Ernie Ball Earthwood. The only one even approachable costwise is the Guild B30. You can find them for around $1000.00US(give or take a couple of hundred). Hohner made one years ago, but I've not seen one since the mid-70s. And I only saw one once. All, repeat 'all' of the rest, regardless of the name are 'acoustically worthless'. Portability is the main reason I use the B30. When playing acoustcally in a jam situation I use standard Jim Dunlop fingerpicks on my index and middle fingers. This seems to give me the attack and projection needed. .020 is the guage used. I'm a touring professional and studio player. Hope this is helpful...I went thru the process of music store salesmen trying to pawn the Taylor off on me as being superior to the Guild...not even close. So, get the Guild and don't waste any time on the others. The EB's are, most likely around $3-4000.00US. Again, as with the B50, 'if' you can even find one. You notice I haven't even used the M-word?...They're crap.

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: Kudzuman
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:02 PM

Guest,celtic cousin,

I just bought a Hohner and it is a moose! Great tone and great volume as well, so I guess they are back. I agree with you about the older Guild Basses. The best I ever heard, but the new ones don't have it. In reference back to Elderly....I've gotten some good products from them and still use them periodically, but never have them back order a small item like a dozen picks for you. Last time I let them keep that on backorder they charged full shipping (something like $6.95) on a $2.00 order of picks which came in an envelope for about $.54 postage. What a rip off!!

Kudzuman

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic base guitars
From: wilco
Date: 01 Jan 03 - 04:34 PM

Thnaks again for input. A friend shoowed-up at a jam last night with his brand-new Martin Acoustic Bass. He payed about $1100.00 w/case.
It was not very loud, and you couldn't hear it in the mix of acoustic insturments. Two of the older players there said that getting rid of the wound metal strings "would help 100%." I've managed to find all of the above mentioned basses (I think), except the Hohner. Thnaks!!!

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic bass guitars
From: Roger the Skiffler
Date: 02 Jan 03 - 04:02 AM

Thread creep: In Michael Dewe's Book "The Skiffle Craze" he reproduces an advert for a Bell "Basello" which was a 2-string upright bass (looked slightly smaller than a normal bass) sold in UK in the '50s as a skiffle alternative to teachest or washtub basses.
On the sleeve notes to Eric Bibb's "Painting Signs" his bass player/producer is credited with playing "tic tac bass" and "fretboard kick" at times.
Any elucidation for the musically hopeless would be welcome.
RtS
(Why do I need to know? I just do!)

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic bass guitars
From: Les from Hull
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 02:31 PM

A capo on a bass? Disgusting, I say! Someone will be advocating the use of flatpick on them next!

Subject: RE: Advice on acoustic bass guitars
From: jimmyt
Date: 04 Jan 03 - 10:13 PM

So, um...let me get this right... you all don't use a flat pick on an upright? well, next you will tell me the whammy bar and fuzztone I have installed on my Englehardt is not within the traditional genre'? Hell, I might as well give up.