BS: Divided We Fall

Subject: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 03:55 PM

Trying to divide people works well in politics. That tactic as much as any, probably got GWB elected. If politicians can just pit the religious right against everyone (including most Christians) "straights" against gays, the rich against the poor, the educated against the uneducated, blacks against whites (done carefully so it doesn't reek of racism) and North against South, power is there for the taking.

But, this isn't meant to be a political thread. Maybe it's a basic human quality to define yourself by how different (and better, of course) you are in comparison to other groups. I've been thinking about this the last couple of days, because it seems like we all need to try to bring people together, rather than alienate each other by judging the motivation of everyone who is different than we are. A case in point. At Nomad, The Gospel Messengers, Shore Grass and Rich Gallagher had a grand time together. Never mind that we are not of one mind, or that the audience was made up of Atheists and Jews as well as Christians. We just had a good time. Hopefully, prejudices were momentarily checked at the door. As a matter of fact, we had such a good time that when I talked to the guys in the Messengers about asking Shore Grass to be our guests when we do a program in a black church, they all thought that it was a terrific idea. From my experience in black churches, I think that just about any black church I'm involved with would welcome such diversity of music, and faiths. Or lack, thereof, if that should be the case. I know that Frankie and Joe in particular, grew up listening to the Grand Ole Opry, and aren't concerned with labels. And that's the point. Rather than trying to see differences between us, why not make more of an effort to find common ground? (and do our best to accept those things we can't agree on.)

I suppose that Mudcat is just a microcosm of the world around us, with a Mulligan's Stew of beliefs, backgrounds, nationalities, religions, and political attitudes. And, like life beyond the keyboard, there are those in here who seek to find common ground, who I consider friends: Bill D and Amos, Kevin, jimmyt and many others.
But, for all the inherent idealism in the folk community, it falls prey to that same divisiveness as in politics (which we all seem to simultaneously abhor and revel in.)

Once in awhile, it just feels right to say a word about appreciating our common ground. Sometimes, it's hard to find, but it's there. I think that Martin Gibson was a good challenge for everyone in here. I've come to consider him a friend, and am glad that he is a member.
If he could somehow find his way to do it, I'd even have a good time having him join the Messengers, Shoregrass and whatever. We could get Bill D, and Martin and jimmyt to join us and have one fine time.

Nothing is impossible.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 03:59 PM

Pete Seeger said it best. "It's important to get along and not go along."

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 06:14 PM

I'll take Jerry's word for it that, behind the mask ** puts on here, there is something a lot better. But I feel that whoever it is would do better to abandon that mask and that persona and come back in with a fresh name, and make a fresh start.

For all but a tiny number of people, here on the Mudcat, and out in the outer world, what unites us is far more important than what divides us. It's only when we recognise that, and act according to it that we can even begin to explore the disagreements we have.

What bring us here in the first place, most of us anyway, is a love for certain types of music, and more than that, because love for folk music isn't just about the music as such, it has to be grounded in a certain attitude of mind towards the way music comes out of ordinary people.

It seems to me that, beneath the differences, especially the political differences, there is something which we tend to share, which we don't necessarily share with a lot of the people with whom we find ourselves aligned politically.

Looking at the issues which have dominated things a lot recently, I suspect that, a lot of the time, when people here despise Bush, they are despising him for a lot of the same reason other people dspise Kerry, and vice versa. If we're against the war, at some level it's for the very same kind of reasons other people are for the war.

And that means when we battle it out, it should be done with respect for the people we find oursleves at odds with, and that rules out certain types of insult - and when people ignore those kinds of limits, the disagreements turn into the kind of divisiveness tat wounds and damages individuals and the community.

It especially damages the individuals who fall into that trap, but it is catching, and every now and again it flares up in a way that really hurts. Good people have stopped visiting becuase they feel it just gives them a nasty taste in the mouth.

Somehow it always seems to get back after a little time, because there really are very few genuinely nasty people around. And teh amazing thing about the Mudcat is how much eagerness to help there is among us, which shows itself in so many ways. Except that isn't really amazing, because that's what most people are really like anyway.

I think the Mudcat allows us to be a bit more like we really are than the big world does. In some cases that's a chance to act nasty - and that's certainly how it looks on a lot of forums I've dropped in on - but I hope even then it's mostly just an act they'll get tired of.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 06:41 PM

"Divide and conquer" is the central operative principle at work in politics, as you pointed out, Jerry. It's a very serious problem. That's why I would be in favour of abolishing all political parties and voting for individuals instead, on the basis of their ideas and their presentation of those ideas. I think it's terrible that children are born into a society that sets them up to be little Democrats and Republicans (or whatever) from Grade 1 on and thus perpetuates these false divisions in society.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 07:09 PM

"...but you knew the smiles of the gentry
And the laughter of lords at their games,
For when poor hunt the poor across mountain and moor
A rich man can keep them in chains."

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 08:00 PM

That's a wonderful, measured response, Kevin. I wouldn't have expected anything less. I think the most challenging thing about Mudcat, and our daily existence is to live what we profess to believe. The living often falls far short of the belief. Sometimes we are challenged to "walk the walk." There's a very familiar phrase I hear in black churches. They talk about people who "talk the talk," but don't "walk the walk."

Here in cyberspace, it can be very difficult to know each other, when there are so many missing pieces in each other's lives. None of us know what each other may have gone through in our lives, or how much we're going through when we log on. And I am no different than anyone else. I get offended and hurt, and fed up. And want to chuck this whole place into the dumpster at times. But that's MY problem... not Mudcat's. It's good for me to know that, and it makes me examine the way that I handle things. Sometimes, when all else fails, it's best to walk the walk, and practice what we preach.

Occasionally, we get it right.

You're a fine man, Kevin and a real blessing here in Mudcat.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Peace
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 08:08 PM

Rapaire:

Is that from "The Yew Tree"?

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 08:17 PM

Yeah. It's one of my favorite songs. 1 of 2,294,394, in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 08:23 PM

Lucky for us, music is the great bridge across the chasms that we ourselves have created. No-one can deny that the greatest back beat ever invented is shared by all men. They can call it a heart beat if they want, but we know what it really is.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 09:34 PM

I wish music bridged the chasm in here more than it does, Chief.. In many cases, it does, though.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:35 AM

Whew!

What can I add? Besides doing a solo gig here and there locally, I get together with a great group of people twice a month for a great acoustic jam session. Some of the region's finest players show up and so do the ones who want to learn from them. It breaks up into different groups in different rooms at this church where it's held and has been going on for many years. Beginners, intermediates, and hot players all sharing.

Music is the language. People of many different ages having a great time. Bluegrass, folk, country, some of it gospel flavored. It's all so wonderful.

No one talks politics. No one does ANYthing to make someone else uncomfortable and if something does happen, it's just not worth making anything of it. We know what goodness we have in this and we look forward to the friendship, the sharing of music, and the warmth we bring to each other.

Personally, I don't think that cyberspace can ever really let us get that feeling. It's not the same as when someone walks in, smiles at you, extends his hand, looks you in the eye, and says "nice to see you."

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:51 AM

But when people behave that way on the Internet it goes a long way to helping give something of that feeling. And the other way round, when people behave in the opposite way.

In real life it's possible to balance things out more easily - you can know someone and enjoy playing music with them even if you can't get on with them once the music stops. And you can know someone, and recognise when they are in a foul mood, and make allowances for that.

That's a lot harder on the Internet. You have to build up quite a lot of trust in someone before you can make those kinds of allowances, more especially when it's a matter of other people coming in for the nastiness.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:55 AM

It seems a love of Folk and/or Blues music is the ONLY common ground some of us can find here sometimes. Isn't that the point though, after all?

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:01 PM

You folks need to get to a Mudgathering, like the FSGW Getaway once in a while. That will let you see what the internet community is capable of fostering. I would also suggest that you go back and read some of the community style threads from 98 to 2001 or so. While there isn't the same physical contact one gets from the sessions that Martin describes so well, there is an absolute sense of community that spawned the gatherings we see now. The Sables/Allan C. trip kind of kicked off the phenomenom.

I think we are in another "golden age" right now. The personalities are great, the gatherings are great, and the common bond is the sharing of the music. Politics, in the 3D Mudcat world are not much of a factor.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:07 PM

And that is probably the MAJOR factor why it works.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:16 PM

Mick, you beat me to it- I was going to agree that, while the internet can never let us really get to know each other and our ins and outs, the Mudcat has opened up a way, a "letter of introduction" so to speak, to lots of people who might never otherwise have met.
I am honored to call friends folks I had before only seen on record jackets, or on threads here. I've met some at festivals, others at peoples' homes, and some I've had stay in my own home- what a gift!
And it's true that folks aren't just they way they appear here. What is also true is that most of us present ourselves here pretty close to reality- and then meeting in 3-D gives greater depth to that reality.

I guess I'm trying to join with Jerry (whom I finally got to meet, too briefly!) in attempting a "United we stand" attitude, at least here on the 'Cat. I'm struggling with how to find ways to achieve that in the larger world.

Luckily, I'm a musician and a teacher. I get to make music with all kinds of folks, and to present assemblies with staff members who may not agree with me on a lot of things, but who had tears in their eyes the day after the election when we sang, "Somos el barco" and "Peace like a river".

Blessings,

Allison

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:20 PM

I think there's often a politics behnd the politics, and it can be even more important in some ways.

I camn think of people with whom I would agree on a lot of big issues, and I know the longer I talked with them the more I'd want to disagree with them, becuase we just aren't on the same wavelength. And the other way round, people you disagre with, but the longer you spend in each other's company, the more you'd like to find soem common ground.

Most of the people around the Mudcat would fall into the latter category, I feel. It's partly the music, but not just that, because there are reasons why we feel drawn to some types of music that aren't purely musical.

There's something Martin Carthy wrote: "If you listen to folk muisc from around the world, you are listening to a distillation over thousands of years involving large numbers of people who from nothing have arrived at some quite astonishing conclusions and these make up an important part of a society's culture. Folk music is...people thinking deeply and emotionally and being able to articulate what they feel in music and dance."

And if someone couldn't understand that, no matter what their politics, I'm on the other side of a wall from them. And if someone can understand that, again no matter what their politics, I'm on the same side of a wall with them.

I was thinking this morning - if you had a bunch of people singing the same song, from the same sheet, but in different keys, the sound that came out would be absolutely horrible. But if they were singing different songs, in the same key, there could be quite a chance that, at least some of the time, the sound would be a bit weird, but it might actually be pretty good.

Perhaps we could try that some time at a Mudgathering. (And remember, I only said "at least some of the time"...)

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Big Mick
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:21 PM

And you are one of the best examples of the internet/Mudcat phenomenon of "old friends, as yet unmet", Allison. I don't mind the hard edged political threads, they serve the purpose of letting us vent our spleen, as it were. But when we are talking about things that we sing about ... life, living, dying, loving, hurting ... this place allows a glimpse into the real side of one another. I think about when I finally got to meet my friend KT for the first time. The only surprise was that her heart was bigger than I imagined, and I imagined it to be full of love to begin with.

That is how I feel about you, my friend.

Good thread, Jerry.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:40 PM

Mind if I warm my hands by the fire?

Most of the time, this is a good place to come. I've enjoyed all the comments in here, and I'm glad that while politics is mentioned, this hasn't devolved into another political thread. I particularly enjoyed your post, Martin. It's the best description I've read in awhile of what happens when people get together just to enjoy each other and share music. It sounds like the time we had at our Gospel In Black, Bluegrass and Blues workshop. And, last year when some of the Shellbacks, Karen Kobella and the Gospel Messengers came up to our house for a thorough sing-around. Everyone was enjoying everyone else, and just rejoicing im being together. And what great fun the singing was.

Music does have the power to transcend all differences. Even moreso, so does love.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: KT
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 01:04 PM

Mick, you beat me to it.

The Getaway gathering was very much like a reunion, a continuation. Though many of us had never met in person, there was instant community, and a deep bond, which surprised and delighted me. The gift of music is the seed which has caused us to come together, but the community is the fruit. And for many of us, it started here.

It has been said by some that this (MUDCAT) isn't the real world, that the personalities that are created here are not real, and therefore it's okay to fire off whatever enters our minds, no matter how nasty or hurtful. I disagree completely. This isn't a computer game. There are real people behind the words. I think this place is very much a reflection of what's happening in the real world, a microcosm, as Jerry said. There is a lot of tension in the real world now, and that is reflected here as well. But there is also a LOT of goodness, and I do believe THAT to be the more powerful force. And just as we need to take responsibility for our actions in the real world, we need to do the same here. At the end of the day when we look back and say, "What good have I contributed today?" we can include this place in the overview.

Jerry, thanks for starting this thread. You've expressed so much of what has been "brewing" in my mind over the last week or so. As always, you've given us food for thought. Thanks for your contributions which always encourage and inspire us to "walk the walk."

KT

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 01:17 PM

Hey, KT:

One of the songs the Messengers do asks a good question:

"Have I given anything today?
Have I helped a needy soul on my way?"

Mudcat can be as real, or as artificial as we choose to make it. Like everything else, what you put into it shapes and molds it. We are the creators of Mudcat... each and every one of us. I thought of titling this thread Come Together. It does my heart good to see that, when it happens.

And maybe someday, Ruth and I will make it down to the Getaway... or maybe pop in on Martin's twice a month gathering, or head up with the Messengers to sing with Allison and her choir.

You never know.

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: KT
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 01:34 PM

Aw, Mick....shucks, maybe I ought to wear it somewhere besides my sleeve!

Jerry, good questions! I wanna meet those Messengers someday....and hear 'em, too!!

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 01:56 PM

4 or more years ago 'Bobert' and 'WYSIWYG' were just names with interesting postings and many varied isses swirling around them...I have now met Bobert 3-4 times, and tonight Rita & I will be playing music with both of them, meeting Susan for the first time....I have met Jerry R. twice, and enjoyed him each time...and yeah, an old reprobate like me would love to sing a few with the Messengers.

it's as real as you make it, folks....

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:35 PM

Which is of course another reason for not saying things on the threads that we wouldn't ever say face-to-face, because it might be face-to-face some time. (But not the most important reason.)

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM

On the subject of the difference between Mudcat friendships (or other internet friendships) and 3D friendships, for me it is this...

When I meet someone for the first time in the 3D context, it takes me a while to get to the point where I feel a sense of knowing them, or a sense of any kind of kinship. When I meet a Mudcatter at a musical gathering, or even just getting together for a visit (I've met several dozen Mudcatters so far), I always feel like I am meeting a long lost family member. There is an instant bond that I don't experience with people who are not Mudcatters. And this applies even to the ones with whom I haven't had much interaction here in the forum. I find it to be a very gratifying experience.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:44 PM

Mick, same to you back atcha!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: jacqui.c
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:54 PM

I agree with you Carol. The Mudcat has given me the opportunity to get together with people that I otherwise would never have met. I now have good friends in Australia, Alaska and many parts of the USA and UK. I took it further and married a Mudcatter, after meeting through the forum!

I think that, unless one is not intending to ever meet other Mudcatters, it is important to be yourself on the forum - and to have respect for the opinions and feelings of others. That way we never will be strangers when we actually meet, and I hope to meet a lot more Mudcatters in the future, as well as getting back together with the friends I've already met.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:23 PM

You and me both jacqui.c. I met my husband, Jack the Sailor, here in the Mudcat. We celebrated our second wedding aniversary just this past October 12.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:43 PM

Carol is one of the Mudcatters who made it to the Orillia Song Circle, which was great. One thing I notice about the song circle...we run the gamut politically speaking, from one end of the spectrum to the other, but we all get along very well when it comes to the music. Thank goodness for that! It looks to me like music is essentially a much realer activity than politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:47 PM

Someone should rewrite Lisdoonvarna for Mudcat gatherings...

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 06:21 PM

I have now met one (1) Mudcatter in the real, live, flesh. We had dinner together and a great time. Too bad it was in a restaurant and we couldn't get a singin' going, but the next time I'm around that way maybe we can.

I almost met Open Mike, but I wasn't here when she came through. I also almost met Sorcha, but we were at different truckstops at the same time. I've spoken to both Sorcha and Alice on the phone.

I'd go to Getaway if I could; likewise Rainy Camp. But I don't get to the meetings of groups I belong to here, and my vacation time is sadly limited. Otheres, I'm sure, have the same problem.

If I could, I would. I'd love to host six or eight or more here. But you all will have to take the thought for the deed.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 06:34 PM

"I have now met one Mudcatter in the real, live, flesh"

Don't show this thread to catspaw...

There's a song in this, on the lines of One Man Went to Mow, or Ten Green Bottles.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:06 PM

Rapaire, if you're going to be in the DC area for Christmas, you'll be in an area that has a large number of Mudcatters. If you worked it right, you could concievably meet quite a few all in one trip. A PM to Bill D might not be a bad idea if you're interested.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 09:45 PM

Lordy, I plumb forgot! I've met Seamus Kennedy, though he probably doesn't remember it.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 10:33 PM

I'm flying out on the 23rd and coming back on the 28th. From previous trips, I'll have family stuff on the 24th and 25th, and probably on the 26th. I'll have to things shape up as the time gets closer.

For whatever it's worth, I'll most likely be staying in the Cherry Hill Road - Powdermill Road area.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:46 PM

Well, Jerry, what interesting timing...

Yesterday afternoon the blues organization that I am part of, Archie Edwards Blues Foundation, played at the Takoma Park V.F.W. hall. The place was packed with folks who probably wouldn't want to know what I think about the current Iraq war and danged if I was gonna say anything about it so...

...we had a great time. They had a great time... We've been asked back for next year and I'll be lookin' forward to it... Plus the food was great and the beer cold... And it was free to the musicans...

Yeah, music is a great common denominator...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:49 PM

The the Cherry Hill Road/Powdermill Road area not too far from the Wheaton/Tacoma Park/Silver Spring area, which is the area that seems to have the greatest saturation of Mudcatters. Bill D is in Wheaton. He's a good contact person.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:54 PM

The thing I like about the Cat is that most people are very honest, and with most of them what they say is the real thing. You're not getting a persona, or just someone hiding behind a computer sceen.. it's the genuine article.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Bill D
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 12:13 AM

Bill D would indeed study the possibilities, Rapaire....I see that it IS tight scheduling with the family stuff, but Cherry Hill Road and Route 29 are only 15-20 minutes from us...ya' never know...

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 02:11 PM

Chris nightbird

You haven't been here long enought to really notice how many phony Guests there are here who log off and do hide behind their computer screen.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 04:20 PM

I'd agree with you Chris - whether it's most or just many is a moot point, since there are lots of Mudcatters who don't post all that often.    But generally speaking, when you meet face to face with someone you've previously met here, they don't disappoint, or give you the feeling you've got to get acquainted all over again.

From a song I wrote about a Mudcat friend I've never yet met face to face, but the words apply to a good few more:

"Though we've never met, and most like never will,
I count you a friend, lives just over the hill.
Though that hill is an ocean, and a long ways to climb,
Still the music can make it, and it works every time..."

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 04:51 PM

...................sung to the tune of Some Enchanted Evening as performed by Robert Goulet.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:35 PM

Having recently transferred up to the DC area I wonder how many catters I've run into and just not known it. There have been a few people that i've felt a deja-vu feeling about.

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: KT
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 10:02 PM

McGrath of Harlow, that's beautiful! What's the rest of it?

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: freda underhill
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 10:25 PM

i have met some fantastic people through mudcat, my only regret is that australia is so far away from so many gatherings, festivals n sessions. not so many folkies here in Oz are into mudcat, and many of us are far away from each other too. mudcat is an incredible responsitory of debate, i enjoy it hugely. I also have some wonderful music c/o catters across the seas. as well, i have come across some people i admire hugely. and then there's martin g.


yes, martin g, i have felt like getting a few wombats to roll you on occasion, (including in the last five minutes) and many times ive found myself laughing at your outrageous comments. have i been corrupted?

freda (or as martin put it, kangaroo brains!)

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 10:36 PM

Just a thought- Franklin's brewbub in Hyattsville the 27th? Or should we look closer to the TPFG?

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:49 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Divided We Fall
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Nov 04 - 07:54 PM

Refresh.