BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting

Subject: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 09:58 AM

In some ways this thread is a continuation of a number of Mudcat threads that I have started about race, including these three:

thread.cfm?threadid=88950
BS: Responses To Racism; started on 19 Feb 06 - 01:34 PM
**
thread.cfm?threadid=101762
BS: Does Being Dark Matter? ; started on 18 May 07 - 08:00 AM

**
thread.cfm?threadid=108931
BS: Mudcat Is Difficult For People Of Color; started on 25 Feb 08 - 09:34 AM

But the main reason why I'm starting this thread is to clarify what I meant by this comment in this thread:
thread.cfm?threadid=120026&messages=46 BS: WW2 made whites-only.

I felt that if I were going to respond to questions that some folks had raised and comments that some folks had made about that particular post on that WW2 thread, it would be better for me to do so in a separate thread.

Let me quote the key portion of that WW2 post that I'd like to clarify and talk more about in this thread:

…"with regard to those old African American songs, I have noticed that Q posts them-as most other Mudcat members do-without any introductory remarks as to their now largely unacceptable use of referents such as what has become known as the "n" word. Since these songs are posted for the folkloric record, it's understandable that folks need to know how they were written way back then. It is less understandable to me that Q has never ever acknowledged in any Mudcat posting that I can recall reading that he recognizes that reading such dialect songs with or without the "n" word could be jarring to contemporary Black people and other people. I've wondered why Q has never acknowledged this. But I think that I have a glimpse of his reasoning in his second comment that I quoted in the beginning of this thread: Q wrote "No point in crying over history. One corrects, and moves on."

I call this the "it was what it was" point of view. Again, let me reiterate that for the sake of the folkloric record, I believe that it is important to fully know how things were-including how songs were sung and by whom and when [and] from which sources. However, I also think that it is important to at least acknowledge that the past still impacts the present in myriad ways"…

-snip-

I'll talk more about what I meant by these comments in my next couple of posts to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 10:20 AM

Race & Socially Responsive Posting

I'm for it. That's all I have to say, since I have already said the rest in a previous post.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 10:35 AM

Before I clarify what I meant by that WW2 comment, as a means of full disclosure, I would like it to be known that it's my intention to include some of my posts from this thread in a book that I have been working on since March 2009. That book, titled Internet Mud-Pies: Black talk on a folk music blog, will contain less than 400 of my 8765 comments that I have written on Mudcat since I started posting here in August 2004. All of those comments fall into the wide categories of Black culture, race, and racism.   

As soon as I got the idea for this book, I contacted Max Spiegel and received permission from him to compile examples of my Mudcat posts into that book. I also shared my idea about this book with Joe Offer the same day that I contacted Max. Joe also indicated that he approves of this concept. The idea for this compilation of posts book came to me all of a sudden as a result of the confluence of a number of things including my reading Mudcat member Joybell's book Hey Ho Rageddy-o. A Study of the Billy Barlow Phenomenon, Here's a link to that e-book: http://warrenfahey.com/barlow/. That book was mentioned in this Mudcat thread thread.cfm?threadid=108389#2585254. At one point in that book, Joybell mentions that she wished that an actor who portrayed Billy Barlow or his wife had left a diary for researchers to read. That led me to thinking about the efficacy of having off-line, print forms of material that is available on the Internet.

Those 'Catters who know me will not be surprised to know that this book is absolutely not a Mudcat hit job. My primary reason for compiling these posts is to share my opinions about the aforementioned topics, and to share anecdotes of some of my life experiences, including my experiences as a self-described Afro-centric Black woman on a folk music blog with very few other people of color. My secondary reason is to raise awareness about Mudcat which will hopefully result in additional Black people and other people of color becoming after members of this forum

It's my hope that people will consider that book to be interesting & informative. I also hope that some people will like the storytelling-ish writing style of my anecdotal Mudcat posts that I've included in that book. However, I want to emphasize that with the exception of some of my posts from this thread, and the WW2 post whose link I've provided, I did not post on Mudcat threads about Black culture, race & racism with the intent of compiling those post into a book.

As many of you are aware, for some time I've been working on a book about children's playground rhymes. About four months ago, I decided that that book would focus on examples of "Down By The Bank of the Hanky Panky" rhymes. Many of those examples that will be featured in that book come from this Mudcat thread: thread.cfm?threadid=94034. I received permission from Max to use any guest posts in that book, and, as per my agreement with Max, I also have received written permission via private messages to use examples of those rhymes that were posted on that Mudcat thread and on other Mudcat threads. While I still intend to finish that project, it has been pushed aside while I work on the compilation of posts book.

I intend to self-publish this Internet Mud-Pie book. I also intend to continue posting on Mudcat while I am working on this book and after I publish this book. However, with the exception of my ongoing project to edit at least one book of children's playground rhymes, I have no intention of editing or writing another book about Mudcat.

In compiling these examples I became aware that I often address people by name in my posts. Next week I'll be sending pms to those members whose names are mentioned in the posts that I have selected for that book. My private message will include the specific thread/s for that person and the date & time of the specific post/s that I will be using in this book. If a member does not want me to use the name he or she uses on this forum, I will instead use a pseudonym for that person throughout this book. However, since I will include the URL for each post in this book, it will be possible for people reading those comments to visit Mudcat and learn the screen names that was used in that thread.

I intend to share additional information about this book when it is published.

That said, in my next post I'll return to the subject of this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 10:43 AM

I hope that others will join in this discussion with the overarching purpose of sharing opinions and information and not attacking anyone or proselytizing.

That above mentioned WW2 comment was not meant to be a personal attack on Q or on any other Mudcat member or guest. As I said in that post, I've been trying to reconcile Q's interest in 19th century African American secular and religious songs with what appears to me to be his lack of acknowledgement or regard for how jarring it may be to read those dialect songs and/or those songs that include the "n" word and/or spell "Negro" with a small "n". I also wrote in that WW2 post that I've been trying to reconcile Q's expertise on those 19th century and earlier Black songs with his take on contemporary African American issues. In that same post I indicated that the reason I was trying to reconcile these things was because I felt they fit into my attempt to try to figure out why it is that so few people who publicly identify themselves racially as Black or a member of another non-White population are regular posters on Mudcat.

To paraphrase another post that I wrote in that WW2 thread, I'm aware that some people may disagree with some of or all of what I write. That is your right. However, I hope people know that I am not starting these threads to be a troublemaking troll or any other kind of troll. I care about Mudcat and I would very much like more people of color to post to this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 11:08 AM

With regard to the subject of "Race & Socially Responsive Posting", I have mentioned on other threads that I cringe when I read posts that contain the "n" word fully spelled out, and/or 29th century and earlier songs written in so-called Black dialect. I have also mentioned that I find comments that spell the racial group "Negro" with a small "n" to be jarring (since the first letter for the names of other group referents such as British, Japanese, Irish, Chinese, and Spanish is routinely capitalized, failure to capitalize the "n" in "Negro" can be interpreted to mean that the writers consider/ed those people to be "less than" those other population groups}. I've been particularly concerned about this small "n" spelling of this retired referent in contemporary comments. My concern caused me to post this comment in this current Mudcat thread: 'Rare' Caribbean shanties of Hugill, etcthread.cfm?threadid=119776&messages=85#2602556.

If I chose to open threads about 19th century or earlier African American "plantation" dance songs, or African American spirituals, or minstrel songs, I've learned to prepare myself to read examples of dialect songs. I understand that it is important to share those examples "as is" (although I have taken to using asterisks when I type the "n" word). That's my choice and I am not saying that everyone should do it.

Yet, I wish that there was an initial statement in those threads or-in the case of refreshed archive threads-i wish that there was a one time statement that the forum is aware that these referents and/or use of dialect may be troubling to some readers, however, for the sake of the folkloric record, they are presented as is in this thread. I'd like there to be such a statement more for individuals visiting this forum than for those of us who regularly posts on this forum. I would like those people (some of whom might be Black and other people of color) to understand that Mudcat members aren't stuck in the past when these types of referents were used by certain populations, but that we are presenting these examples in these ways largely for research purposes.

With regard to being on-topic:

I believe that it is appropriate for people posting to threads that contain Black dialect songs, to write about how those types of songs and referents impact them now regardless of the reasons for them being posted. In addition, I believe it is appropriate to provide information within those threads about whether in that person's experiences, those songs are still sung in dialect by African Africans now. Furthermore, I believe that it is on-topic to offer the opinion that those types of dialect songs or rhymes should be retired from public entertainment concerts (note the word "public". I don't include in this opinion educational classes/sessions or private events).

Again, these are my opinions and I understand that some folks may not agree with them.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 11:42 AM

In one of his post to that WW2 thread, Joe Offer wrote "Yeah, I admit I cringe when I see a thread with the term "coon songs" in the title. But no, if a person is posting dozens of songs, I would find it tedious for him/her to post some sort of caution or apology with each one."

-snip-

I agree Joe that I would also find posting some sort of statement about the language used to be "tedious". Note that I didn't say "apology". I have not asked for nor would I ask for people to write any "apologies" for these songs. However, in that WW2 post-in response to Q's comment that "we should correct and move on" that there be some acknowledgement that these examples may contain language that may be considered pejorative and/or culturally insensitive and are presented here for the purpose of folkloric study.

**

In that same post to that WW2 thread, Joe Offer also wrote:

"And when somebody posts a song and gives bibliographic information and a date for the song, then I think most of us are intelligent enough to see that the song is being posted for study purposes and not to promote racism."
-snip-

My response is that in my opinion, when people post to Mudcat, they aren't just writing for those people who are actively participating in that discussion, or those people who may be lurking, that is, reading that thread during the time that the posts are written. I believe that Mudcat posters should also be mindful that people can access these threads by posting key words into Internet search engines a week, months, and years after the thread has been archived. Therefore it is very possible that people can read those threads and not readily understand why this forum contains discussions about these types of songs and/or rhymes such as many examples on this thread.
thread.cfm?threadid=6971
'Once in China there lived a great man"

**

Joe's last question in that post asked whether we should have to apologize for every song that people might find offensive in the Digital Tradition. Again, I'm not talking about apologies. But I am suggesting that thread starters or one new poster to a thread that includes such dialect or pejorative examples include some type of statement about the reasons for collecting and showcasing such songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 12:27 PM

I entirely agree with your perspective on the "n-word", and other words that have come to have a pejorative meaning, whether or not that was their original intent. However, I don't think I agree with where you are going with dialect in songs. Where the dialect originated with black-faced performers, whose use of that form of the language was only to ridicule {insert adjective of your choice here} people, then I'm with you entirely. A statement such as "this dialect originated in music halls and has no real connection to real people" is completely appropriate.

On the other hand, there are songs that are commonly sung in Irish, Scots, Swedish or German accented English, or that American dialect commonly called Southern. How is this different from singing a song in the form that it originated, among enslaved Africans or their immediate descendants, enslaved or not? I can't think that your intent would be, to give an extreme example, to translate all of Huddie Ledbetter's songs into contemporary English.

PS - put me on the list for a copy of the book.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: meself
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 12:45 PM

While Mudcat certainly has a few bona fide "scholars", and any number of "enthusiastic amateurs", and while scholarly discussions do at times take place here, it is still very much a "public forum", with all kinds of people dropping in and out. I do not see any harm in having a stock disclaimer inserted at the beginning of threads such as those under discussion, of the "This program contains language that some viewers might find offensive" variety.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 12:58 PM

Thanks Art, I admit that I've given no thought what so ever to "songs that are commonly sung in Irish, Scots, Swedish or German accented English".

With regard to "songs that originated, among enslaved Africans or their immediate descendants, enslaved or not" (I'm talking about "dese", "dos", "gwine" and mammy type talk), I would say this:

1. Imo, it's not only appropriate, but it's important to have written records of how those songs were sung regardless of who composed them or who sung them

but

2. I think that it's also appropriate to post a one time statement in those threads which would say something like that these songs may contain language forms or dialect that has been retired (meaning that African Americans don't use language anymore and/or some people may consider that dialect to be culturally insensitive). Imo, such a statement should include something about the purpose of the song/s being posted on this forum.

3. I also believe that it is appropriate and desirably for there to be discussion in such threads about whether these types of songs (including spirituals) are still sung that way by most African Americans and whether they should be sung for entertainment in public settings, including public schools.

4. I also wish that the same type of statement or a similar type of statement would be posted one time by the thread starter or a Mudcat moderator on threads such as that China man thread whose link I provided earlier. In addition, I have come to believe that I should have posted a statement in the Down By The Banks of The Hanky Panky" thread when I found that examples were being posted that have "homosexual" referents. In response to those examples, I wrote that I don't think people should call other people "gay" (as an insult), but maybe that isn't enough.

**

On the taunting rhymes pages of my website I periodically post messages in bold font such as this one:

These examples are posted for their creative, folkloric value. I strongly advise against using these taunts & insult rhymes in real life situations as some people may get very angry or hurt because of what you are saying. In addition, reciting these taunts in the wrong place & time (such as in schools) may lead to consequences from school officials and/or other adults, children, or youth.

http://cocojams.com/taunting_rhymes.htm


-snip-

However, I'm aware that many of my web site's readers are children & youth. So I'm not suggesting that the same message would be appropriate for specific Mudcat threads.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 01:26 PM

For the record:

I did mention "apology" on that WW2 thread. However, I was specifically talking about my sense that an apology should have been given and still should be given to those Black soldiers or on behalf of those Black soldiers who were not allowed to liberate Paris simply because someone (France? USA?) insisted that the Allied army liberating that city must be made up of White soldiers only.

Furthermore, my comment about "apologies" in that WW2 post referred to the information that was posted about German soldiers murdering Black soldiers who surrendered to them, simply because of their race. I felt/feel that the descendants of these soldiers deserve at the very least to have an apology from the German government.

**

And of much less importance, in my second post to this thread, I wrote that the book that I'm working on includes about 400 of about 8765 of my Mudcat posts. I then said that all of these posts fall into the categories of Black culture, race, and racism. I meant that all of the 400 or so posts in that book are from those categories. A review of my posting history (which can be accessed by clicking on my name in the heading of this thread or any thread) will show that a significant percentage of my Mudcat posts have nothing what so ever to do with Black culture, race, or racism.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: mg
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 02:04 PM

I agree that it is a good idea to have disclaimers...including if and when certain songs are sung. And if I were running things I would have an autocorrect for whenever the "N" word was used to put in parenthesis at the very least. and perhaps a reference to a permacomment clicky as to why that was being done. mg

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 02:15 PM

If a permacomment-clicky can be automated in, I'd be for that and I'd support it being added to any of the songs in the Spirituals Permathread (which, itself, has long contained a prominent notice).

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Amos
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 03:09 PM

My experience has always supported the belief that in the presence of full responsibility, offense does not occur. So I am leery of bending too far in the direction of avoiding offense, because I believe it only occurs between two willing participants. This is especially true in the matter of historical records, which these songs are.

All that said, there has   been a convention since Elizabethan times of substituting asterisks or dashes for words below the salt, including religious epithets and anatomical descriptions. I don't think we need to redact instances of the word "mammy" or strike "dese" and "dose" or dialectical peculiarities, but pejorative terms are perfectly understandable without being spelled out and it emphasizes the perspective of understanding that you want to promote.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Melissa
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 04:51 PM

If it's necessary to have warning/disclaimer to point out Potentially Offensive Posts, wouldn't the purpose be served just as well by asking for it to be added to the front page of the site?

I'm probably offensive for thinking that the idea is insultive and implies that whoever may be reading the posts is ignorant and incapable of processing the material for themselves.

Who would the warning be designed for?
The same people who need a warning on their iron so they don't iron clothes while they're wearing them?

Congrats on your book idea, Azizi. It sounds like an interesting project.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: akenaton
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 05:45 PM

Christ!.....you've got a "blackish" president,is it not time to get over this shit?

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: greg stephens
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 06:14 PM

Azizi: I really don't follow where you are going with some of the dialect discussion. Is it your position that older black dialect songs should be "retired"? And if so, what about modern dialect songs eg rap etc? Should all black dialect be retired? Or only out of date stuff? And what about the many varieties of white dialects(both old and new) that many of Mudcat's white contributors sing in? Are we meant to stop? I occasionally sing in a Devonian or Cornish dialect(to both of which I have a total right).
You also have to consider that many examples of "exaggerated dialect" entertainment material is actually created from within the communities of the dialect being parodied. Just what do you want to "retire"?
We none of us wish to offend, if we can avoid it, but it is very hard to spot exactly what you find offensive. And sometimes offending is inevitable: you, I seem to rememmber, find some of Leadbelly's songs offensive, but then a lot of people don't. Some black people will continnue to sing them, even though you find them offensive. It gets more and more confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 07:22 PM

Well, I ain't gonna get into the academic part of this discussion 'cause that stuff is way over my head... Too much readin' and writin'...

But, as a blues musican I spend quite a bit of time on stage talkin' about words, phrases which are a large part in folks developin' an appreciation... I also like to show how early black gospel evolved into the blues and remains a part of today's blues music... There are alot of black gospel songs right outta hymnals used in black churches that have become mainstays in the blues... And within those hymns there is that language that needs to be explained...

A good example is the song "Get Right Church" that Mississippi Fred McDowell and others took right ouutta church and into the juke joints... But what does "get right church" mean??? Well, simply, it means doing church right... Like coming outta the church having made thing right with oneself and the Lord... It's like getting an answer right on a test...

Reckon that's about all I'm gonna add at this point... I've all ready gone thru my history here in Mudville about how I became so entrenched in black culture that I'll spare us that testimonial...

As for socially responsible posting, I'll just take a pass... Way over this ol' Africanized hillbilly's head... LOL... I mean, I've allready crossed the line a few times... I will say, however, that I always love going back to Richmond because, unlike this honky (joke) rural area I live in it allows me to interact with black folk and that is like going home... And when I say interact, it's kinda hard to expalin but there's a natural rythum of movement and speech and body language that black folk have that I interternalized a long time ago... It's comforting...

Now back to the stuff that is way over my head...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 07:31 PM

greg stephens, I used the word "retired" two times in this thread. Both of those examples are from this post:

RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi - PM
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 11:08 AM

The first time I wrote "retired" was in this sentence: "I've been particularly concerned about this small "n" spelling of this retired referent in contemporary comments." In that sentence "retired" refers to the referent "Negro" which is no longer the accepted formal referent for African Americans.

The second time I used the word "retired" in this thread was in this sentence:
"Furthermore, I believe that it is on-topic to offer the opinion that those types of dialect songs or rhymes should be retired from public entertainment concerts (note the word "public". I don't include in this opinion educational classes/sessions or private events). "

In this sentence, I was sharing my opinion that a discussion of various opinions about 19th century "plantation" songs-particularly those which include the "n word" should not be considered off-topic for a thread that provided examples of those songs.

I repeat that I recognize that some people will agree with my opinions and some won't. I never said that I speak for any other person-regardless of her or his race-but myself.

As to my opinion, I believe that what is most important is the person's or group's reason/s for presenting those particular songs (songs is that contain the "n" word). In my opinion, these songs should not be performed in public for entertainment without the "n" word being changed to another word. However, people have a right to do whatever they want to do as long as it's legal. And I suppose it is legal to sing a song that in public for entertainment that includes the "n" word. As you know, some Black rappers do so quite often. And I don't approve of them when they use that word either. Again, this is my opinion, and I recognize that everyone is entitled to her or his opinion in this and in other matters.

Since I know nothing about Devonian or Cornish dialect songs, I can not state any opinion about those songs.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Peace
Date: 11 Apr 09 - 11:13 PM

Good thread, Azizi.

To quote Lenny Bruce, "I'm gwine to heaven. Gwine to find out what gwine means."

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 09:01 AM

Gwine get reeee'ligin,
Gwine joine Bap-tis choucth
Gwine come a Bap-tis preacha'
So I won't haf to woik...

(Son House ffrom "Preachin' Blues...)

BTW, there is an excellent video of Son House doing "John the Revelator" while standing up but before he does the song he goes into a monologue that is absolutely priceless where he speaks about the conflicts of between the blues, which were thought by some to be the "Devil's music", and his Faith... It is a very anguished monolgue...

It has been reported that Son would go down to the juke joint on Saturday night and play music and drink hard and get up on Sunday mornin' and preach... If there was such thing as a time machine I would love to be able to go back to the 30's and sit right up there in the first pew to hear one of his sermons...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 10:10 AM

Back to Son House for just a minute...

When I perform country blues I try to not only get it as authentic as possible but also talk alot about the music so that the songs I do have some historical context...

I agree with Azizi that if they are just rolled out in a manner shere people don't get the story that some could be misinterpreted as belittling the speech patterns of black musicans during the time in which these songs we popular in the black community... It is also important to remember that most black blues performers of the day also played and performed the white pop songs of their day and from my readings did them with more of a white dialect...

The blues, however, was more the folk side for black musicans and less Eruopean and more African in rythum and dialect...

But there is a fine line for us white traditional blues players and if we do the music historically without telling the stories then we are doing a dis-service to the music as well as distrespecting black people and black culture...

Now there are plenty of folks who do white blues with white speech inflections and mannerisms... That is fine because these songs represent more of an evolutionary style of music that came from the blues, rythum and blues, Chicago style blues and rock 'n roll from the 50's and early 60's... I understand that... It ain't African folk music... It's just current music based on a 1-4-5 chord structure...

My interests aren't in this evoutionary style but in the presentation of a more historically accurate story... I'm sure that there are folks who consider white people telling these stories and performing these songs close to the way they were performed a long time ago to be blasphomy but it ain't offered up in that way...

It's kinda like that discussion on race that we never get around to... When I perform and tell the stories part of what I am doing is having a part of that discussion...

In a way I understand fully what Son House was talkin' about in his monologue... People, black, white or brown, are conflicted... The blues is all about conflict... There is no blasphomy in white folks playing traditional blues... Conflict??? Well, yeah...

But one has to wonder how black folks felt in the 20's being asked to perform the white pop songs of their day one one hand but being told by the recording companies to just play blues on the records...

Not an easy subject but worthwhile indeed...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 12:16 PM

You're right again Bob.....There is no real discussion on race, we are being slowly strangled.....speechless....the fundamentalist "liberals" rule.....OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 12:52 PM

Well, ake... It's like there's always somethin' in the way... A new war... A broken economy... The latest shootings...

Lotta folks on both sides of the political divide have their excuses all lined up...

And it's not just white people either...

Too bad... It's kinda like that uncle in every family who does this or that wrong and folks just say, "Well, you know how he is..." as if that makes it right???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Lox
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 01:32 PM

In recent editions of the oxford English dictionary, the words "Negroid" and "Mongoloid" are defined according to their original intended anthropological meanings.

However, as a part of this, recognition is made of the fact that (a) these terms are not legitimate terms in anthropology any more, as it has become a much more complicated science and they are too simplistic, and (b) they are terms likely to cause offence to those whom they may be used to describe.

A dictionary is a source of collected information about words that exists so we can learn all about them.

The mudcat is becoming more than just a database of songs, but is close to becoming an encyclopedia of folk.

There's a lot more info here than on wiki .....


An authoritative compilation of songs, that includes songs of the sort described above, would be able to claim more academic legitimacy if it were to include ALL the information about a song.

This would justify the claim that this is an impartial knowledge base for those interested in folk songs, their meaning, cultural significance and origins.

It might also help a good natured but ignorant folk singer to avoid singing a song that, unbeknownst to him, might get him in trouble with his audience.


Such disclaimers would therefore not just be about placating politically correct judges and referees.

They would serve the purpose of educating people.


We all come here to read about folk, and to talk about all sorts of things. No subject is taboo and that is as it should be.

It's so much more interesting when we actually learn something we didn't know before.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 05:04 PM

Also, what about "darkies" in song? Henry Clay Work was one of the strongest abolitionists of the civil war period. He used "darkies" in " Kingdom Coming", which is about slaveowners running away, and the joy the former slaves felt as the South lost the Civil War. I would think Work's political views should get him off the hook on this one--and should also do so for anybody singing the song now who prefaces the singing with this information about Work.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 06:32 PM

Here's a link to an article about "The use of dialect in African-American spirituals, popular songs, and folk songs":

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-5893140/The-use-of-dialect-in.html#readmore

The entire article isn't provided for free. However, here's a long excerpt:

The use of dialect in African-American spirituals, popular songs, and folk songs.
Publication Date: 22-SEP-04
Publication Title: Black Music Research Journal
Format: Online
Author: Graziano, John


Description

"The presence of vocal works that use dialect in African-American culture has been a controversial and difficult area of inquiry for those investigating the phenomenon. Dialect songs were first heard in the minstrel shows that toured the United States and Europe before the Civil War (Mahar 1999). They continued to be performed after the war as well, although not as frequently by professional troupes. Textually, many minstrel songs presented derogatory caricatures of African-American and slave culture known from depictions of southern plantations. By the 1870s, African-American dialect was still heard, most often in minstrelsy, although probably in some sacred repertory as well. While spirituals and jubilees sung in churches may have used dialect, existing evidence suggests that touring college groups, such as the Fisk Jubilee Singers and the Hampton Students, avoided the use of dialect when they performed spirituals as part of their programs. The Fisk Singers' book The Story of the Jubilee Singers (Marsh 1880) and their later recordings (after 1909) offer their repertory in standard English. Ditson's (1887) publication Jubilee and Plantation Songs likewise eschews dialect. Undoubtedly, the use of standard English in these publications and in public performances reflected a desire to demonstrate that African Americans were educated and could speak and sing in standard English.

Toward the end of the 1880s, a number of African-American vocal quartets began to appear in various venues, including vaudeville, country fairs, and variety shows. One of the most famous was the Standard Quartet, which toured with the South before the War company. The group made a number of cylinders in the early 1890s, of which one, "Keep Movin'," also sung in standard English, has survived (Brooks 2004, 96-97). However, the popularity of the antebellum spirituals and jubilees influenced a number of black minstrels to write and perform sacred dialect songs in their shows. James Bland's "Oh, Dem Golden Slippers" (1879) and Sam Lucas's "Put On My Long White Robe" (1879) are two examples of this sacred genre that migrated from the church and concert stage to the minstrel show. Lucas's song has no derogatory sense. Rather, the dialect conveys an African-American perspective (similar to that heard in spirituals) on the voyage that follows death. ..

During the 1890s, the most controversial dialect lyrics, which harkened back to the early days of minstrelsy, were set to ragtime melodies; this new genre is usually identified as the "coon" song. It was sung in a multiplicity of venues--in the minstrel show, in vaudeville, and on Broadway. It is generally stated that Ernest Hogan's "All Coons Look Alike to Me" was the first coon song (Woll 1989, 2), but in truth, a number of coon songs predate his piece. (1) His song, however, together with the "Bully Song," whose authorship was claimed by no fewer than five composers, introduced the new genre to Broadway, where mainstream theatergoers readily accepted and approved their catchy tunes, sung by May Irwin. The coon song's popularity led many African-American lyricists and composers to write vernacular songs that were sung by both black and white performers. While most of these songs had slangy lyrics in which final sounds were dropped ("hangin'," for example) and contractions were used ("ne'er"), they did not use dialect ("dere" and "dem"). A small group, however, did. Bert Williams and George Walker, for example, wrote several that were heard in their musicals between 1897 and 1902, as did Irving Jones, Will Marion Cook, and Bob Cole. ..

Because African-American dialect was associated in the public mind primarily with minstelsy and coon songs, many middle- and upper-class blacks at the turn of the twentieth century regarded it as a negative reflection of the race. Yet dialect in general was accepted in literature and poetry. Mark Twain (1888, ii) prefaced his novel The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn with the following "Explanatory": "In this book a number of dialects are used, to wit: the Missouri negro dialect; the extremist form of the backwoods South-Western dialect; the ordinary 'Pike-County' dialect; and four modified varieties of this list." Several poets, including James Whitcomb Riley, Eugene Field,..."

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 06:43 PM

I just noticed that I wrote the "29th century" in one of my earlier post to this thread. I would hope that by that century-if there is "still" such a thing as different races, folks will consider them as nothing more than valueless descriptors.

**

That said, the past is still not that long ago and personal racism still exists as does institutional racism. Ron Davis, I looked up the words to Henry Clay Work's song in the Digital Tradition. Here the link to that song.

I can well imagine that it took a lot of courage for Work to be an abolitionist. I can also imagine that this song was very forward looking for its day. But if you are asking me does knowing the background of that song make the dialect and the "darky" references easier for me to stomach, my answer in a word is "no".

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Midchuck
Date: 12 Apr 09 - 09:15 PM

Us Woodchucks determined that "Kingdom Coming" could not be performed without offending most audiences, but it was too important a song, from the standpoint of melody, to abandon. So we rewrote it from scratch. Now it should only offend a few audiences:

TWO BELOW
(Lyrics: Kristina and Peter Cady
Melody: "Kingdom Coming," Henry Clay Work)

Now Old Man Winter's comin' round here
With his cold and frosty face.
The ice and snow lie on the ground here
And we're like to freeze in place

The fuel truck's stuck hard in the driveway
And my nose is red and sore
But I know that we'll get out alive, be-
Cause we've been through this before

        We're splitting wood, you see (hee, hee)
        We're thawing pipes, you know (ho, ho).
        And it must be that the springtime's coming
        'Cause it's up to Two Below.

The old wood stove out in the kitchen,
Well, it seems to work real good.
But when the cats move closer, bitchin'
Then it's time to add more wood.

And when that baby's really roaring,
And the pets are sprawled out flat
Then we never watch the dial, that's boring -
We just check the Thermocat!

        (Chorus)

One morning I got up to piddle,
And the toilet wouldn't flush.
Then I knew the water in the middle
Of the pipes had turned to mush.

So I went dirty, and began to mutter
But I got wet after all
When the ice dam let go in the gutter
And came sliding down the wall.

        (Chorus)

Peter

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:11 AM

Peter, that's a great song.

But shouldn't the cats be itching instead of that "b" word?

:o)

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:40 PM

Azizi, for what it's worth I don't mind you quoting and commenting on any of my posts to Mudcat in your proposed book. I can trust you to fairly represent what I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 12:56 PM

Hello, Jack.

Thank you.Hack, I'm sending a pm about this book to a small number of Mudcat members .You should have a pm momentarily.

Fwiw, if a Mudcat member doesn't receive a pm from me by the end of today about my including their name in this book, it's likely that he or she would not be receiving such a pm from me.

Of course, this doesn't mean that I'm not interested in the comments about Black culture, race, or racism she or he may have made on this public forum. It's just that I didn't happen to address that member by name and/or quote them in any of my comments on that subject that will be included in this book.

If anyone has any questions about this, please feel free to send me a private message.

Thanks again,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: greg stephens
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 04:33 PM

Azizi: I don't think you can really assess how you stand on the use of black dialects of English(historic or contemporary) without at least taking a glance at your attitudes to other dialects of English. I am not saying that treatments should necssarily be uniform across all ethnic groups, far from it; but you need to have some sort of attitude to the use of dialects, whether in a derisive or positive way,right across the spectrum. For a start, what you call "standard English" is by no means standard on both sides of the Atlantic.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: meself
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM

I think Azizi knows full well how she stands on the use, etc. Of course, the word "assess" in this context can mean different things to different people ...

It would make sense, though, for Azizi within the pages of her prospective book to: 1) acknowledge the existence of other dialect writing/singing; 2) recognize that the intent of such dialect writing/singing can vary (broadly: positive, negative, neutral); 3) recognize that the effect may not correspond with the intent; and, 4) recognize that the effect of the use of dialect as well as the understanding of the intent of such use may change over time.

I offer that for her use FWIW, not to try to get an argument going. I would hate to see her get so bogged down in the subtleties and permutations of the use of dialect in Cornish folksong that she never gets her book completed ...

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Jack Campin
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 05:33 PM

I don't think her job needs to be made any more complicated than it is already. Scots has been stereotyped in similar ways - look at Harry Lauder's career as a "tartanface minstrel" - and some dialects of Scots, like Glaswegian and Highland-English dialect, have been useful sources of cheap laughs within Scotland itself for about 300 years (as in the 18th century song "The Massacre of Ta Pheirson"). Maybe somebody with the time and resources for a Ph.D.-sized project could get something useful out of the comparison, but it sounds like a recipe for getting stuck on a gratuitously unwieldy problem.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 05:42 PM

Sorry, I thought that I could devote more time to this today. But I'll be sending some pms out tomorrow instead of finishing them up today.

**

Greg, you wrote "I am not saying that treatments should necssarily be uniform across all ethnic groups, far from it; but you need to have some sort of attitude to the use of dialects, whether in a derisive or positive way,right across the spectrum. For a start, what you call "standard English.."

I don't agree that I need or anyone else needs "to have some sort of attitude toward the use of dialects...right across the spectrum." Far be it for me to tell someone else what they need to have.

Also, the term "Standard English" is used in the USA, and yes, I know it's not the same as British English. See this excerpt from
a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_English">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_English

"Standard English (often shortened to S.E. within linguistic circles) is a term generally applied to a form of the English language that is thought to be[citation needed] normative for educated native speakers. It encompasses grammar, vocabulary, spelling, and to some degree pronunciation...

here are no official rules for "Standard English" because, unlike some other languages, English does not have a linguistic governance body such as the Académie française or Dansk Sprognævn to establish usage.
The English language, although originating in England, is now spoken as a first language in many countries of the world, each of which has developed one or more "national standards" of pronunciation, grammar, vocabulary, and spelling.

As the result of historical migrations of English-speaking populations and colonization, the predominant use of English as the international language of trade and commerce (lingua franca), English has also become the most widely used second language,[1] and is therefore subject to alteration by non-native speakers. Numerous "non-native dialects" are developing their own standards – those, for example, of English language publications published in countries where English is generally learned as a foreign language.[citation needed] In countries where English is either not a native language or is not widely spoken, another country's variant might be considered "standard", often that of England or the United States.

The effects of local native languages on the creation of creoles or pidgins have contributed the evolution of the many local and regional varieties of English. "

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: meself
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 05:46 PM

"I don't think her job needs to be made any more complicated than it is already."

Exactly. It's an ambitious and worthwhile project she's undertaking, but I think she will need to keep it focussed on what she's really interested in to get through it. We can all take pot-shots at it after it's published!

And of course, come to think of it, the business of dialect is only one of a number of subjects she proposes to touch on, if I understand correctly.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 05:57 PM

Sorry.

Here's that hyperlink to that Wikipedia article.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_English

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 06:11 PM

And I just noticed I called Jack Hack...

I didn't mean it Jack. Please don't Jack me up.

:o)

That's what I get for trying to multitask.

Btw, for what it's worth, let me reiterate my book concept:

I am editing a book of a very small number of my Mudcat posts on the specific subjects of Black culture (including my childhood, teenage, and college memories; my Baptist church experiences, and other experiences, as well as my posts on banjos, spirituals, children's playground rhymes. Included in that book will be a very small number of my Mudcat posts on race & racism. The book will include a significant number of anecdotes. There will be rather lighthearted comments and rather heavy duty comments. But there will not be any scholarly research. That is not the stated intention of this book. I don't have the expertise for that. I'm just an armchair observer and commenter.

That said, I do intend to write more about my observations about contemporary Black English. But not now.

Best wishes,

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Lox
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 06:42 PM

Interestingly, though I have no doubt you are already aware of this, I seem to remember reading sometime in the let 80's that Pidgin in Papua New Guinea had replaced the Queens English as the official language of their parliament.

I think it is important to note that while there are indeed different types of English all over the world, and British English isn't governed by the same rules as some other languages, it remains nonetheless disticnt from other types.

American-English is defined by clear differences in spelling and the American-English dictionary has a clear identity of itsa own, despite the overriding similarities.

Which brings me to ask; would it be fair to describe what you are doing as an attempt to compile some kind of definitive text of Black American English in relation to folksongs?

This seems like a pretty complex and hard to define task.

To what extent will you be looking at socio-political factors?

To what extent will you be charting the evolution from African linguistic/cultural roots and the intermingling of other cultural factors?

You have quite a task before you just identifying the focus of your novel.

Are these questions helpful?

Could each of these considerations be the foundation of individual chapters?

Are they each hugely complex topics in their own right that could merit multi volume texts per topic?

What will the basic investigation be?

What is the premiss?

What are you hoping to clarify?

could you get funding to do something like this?

could you approach some uni somewhere to use their research facilities and maybe get some letters after your name in the process?

If these are questions that interest you, who could you go to to get them answered?


Just some thoughts ...

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Lox
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 06:45 PM

drat - I wish I'd read your last post a bit less fleetingly ... never mind - hopefully I've said something thought provoking ...

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 07:15 PM

Lox, when have you not been provoking?- of thoughts, I mean.

I'm just kidding.

With regard to your list, hopefully a number of Ph. D candidates might decide to take on some of that list.

And if I'm still around when they publish their findings, I'd be one of the first person to read their books.

Thanks, Lox and others for your interest. I know it's well meaning.

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:08 PM

Ahhhhh, an' what ever happened to e-bonics???

An' shoot, if we're gonna' get into e-bonics, I'd like to see another discussion on "bubba-onics"... lol...

I mean, bubba is one dumbass white boy...

He thinks of a pool hall when he hears the word "Iraq"... Now is that eat up dumb, 'er what???

An' all he knows 'bout the word rectum is NASCAR... "Boy, Ralph, that 43 car really rectum, din't he???"

And here's the one that got me really scratchin' my head seein' as this is mushroom season... Bubba can't quite get his head wrapped around the difference between "mergal" and "morelle"... I mean, they don't even sound alike but that's what Bibba calls morelle mushrooms... Mergals???

Yeah, MizAziz, when you finish yer book maybe you can help me with mine... LOL...

(You ain't gonna write no book, Boberdz, 'cause first of all, you can't write and second of all, you is a slacker when it comes to much
more than poking fun and hunting mergals... LOL...)

B;~)

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: meself
Date: 13 Apr 09 - 08:09 PM

I think a lot of us got side-tracked by the various issues and questions that have been mentioned peripherally in the thread ...

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 03:00 PM

I would like to thank all those who posted to this thread. I also want to thank all those who responded to my pms about my use of their name in this book and/or use of their quotes.

I am well aware that there are many Mudcat members who have posted insightful comments about Black culture, race, and racism prior to my joining this forum and while I have been posting on this forum. My writing project is just part of the whole.

If I have not contacted you about this project, it does not mean that I don't value what you have written about those subjects. It just means that I happened not to have addressed you by name or quoted you in my posts on those subjects. Furthermore, I have decided to focus more heavily in this book on anecdotes than on comments. This means that some of the posts that I wrote folks about will not be included in this book. When I get closer to publication, I'll be back in touch with folks who I contacted whose posts will not be included. And I'll post an announcement in this thread or on another thread when my book is actually published.

Thanks again!

Azizi

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 07:43 PM

How much editing are you planning on doing to the threads you are going to put in the book?

Subject: RE: BS: Race & Socially Responsive Posting
From: Claymore
Date: 14 Apr 09 - 10:14 PM

Recently I read an extremely old book about a Dr. Barrington who was a child in Richmond, VA during the Civil War and later became a docter during Reconstruction. He was the paternal great, great, great grandfather, of my grandson Barrington Higgns (now known as Bear).

He made an interesting comment in the book, that every family in the Richmond area could tell where a slave (and later ex-slave) came from, due to the slaves accent while speaking English. No matter what the location in Africa the slave had been seized, the slaves English always reflected the English accent of his master(s). This was because the only English the slave heard was his owners(s). According to the Docters memoirs, due to the later laws preventing the importation of slaves (think Armistad) these accents became more prominent on each plantation.

Dispite the common perception that the Richmond area has its own Southern accent, it was a fact that the Richmond area at that time was somewhat of a melting pot for the tobacco trade. The slave's English could contain Irish, German, French etc. speaking patterns and the locals could tell if the slave came from the Jones, Murpheys, Storchs, etc.

According to him, this also persisted through the Reconstruction, as carpet-baggers from the North began to take over the businesses and the now freed, but no less indentured Africans, reflected their bosses English.

It was an an interesting observation on dialect, and one that I've never seen in print before.