Fascists Close St George event?

Subject: Folklore: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:07 AM

I know nothing about the facts but picked up elsewhere a quote: -

"folk singing/story telling event for St George's eve forced to cancel due to intimidation by Sheffield racists?"


Anyone know the facts?

Subject: RE: Folklore: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 05:09 AM

Have a look on the Folk Against Fascism permathread, Richard. But this is what has been said by the organiser, Abi Gibbens, today:

The landlord of the pub we where we were due to hold our event received, he says, phone threats from a known BNP member saying if this gig went ahead it could be very bad news for him. It was a vague threat, but enough for the landlord to then phone one of the organisers of the gig (Simon) and say he wanted "nothing to do with all this shit". Simon was concerned about the threat, and asked if he'd called the police. The landlord replied he didn't want the police involved, he didn't want a police presence at the pub, and repeated he wanted nothing to do with the gig. When Simon and I met at the pub that evening, there were posters everywhere saying "UAF concert cancelled". Now this gig had nothing to do with UAF (Unite Against Fascism), but certain posts on the Sheffield Forum internet site revealed a certain person trying to stir up that the UAF *were* involved, and saying (direct quote from post, since removed from forum site):

"It said in the star yesterday that the UAF was holding a concert to spread the word about the hatred BNP, well the UAF don't let us have out get togethers in pubs for meetings, they bombard the pubs with threats. So the BNP just decided to get some of there own back on them!!!! "

( http://www.sheffieldforum.co.uk/showpost.php?p=6162228&postcount=15 )

In the end we (organisers and artists) went to another nearby pub for a chat about it all, and as there was a general feeling of not wanting to be cowed by thugs, two of the artists performed there anyway.

I'm afraid I don't have a copy of the actual listing in The Star, but have attached a copy of the flyers we used to promote the event.

-----

That's the facts, but if you want my personal reaction it would probably have a lot more swear words in it. The landlord pulled the rug from under us, effectively saying I am a spineless humbug who would rather keep the BNP happy than the unoffensive, local people who organised an entire evening event that would have brought in a ton of people to buy beer in my pub. Sod their publicity costs, sod their artist costs, sod the fact that it's only 6hrs' notice. The artists were shocked and pissed off, the punters were shocked and pissed off, and as the landlord has made very clear he wants to remain anonymous, it has been left to me to explain why *we* were so cowardly as to cancel an event after a vaguely worded anonymous BNP threat.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mousethief
Date: 23 Apr 10 - 06:57 PM

It's the Nightmare Years all over again. Scary stuff.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 05:35 AM

Sickening isn't it. These are the people who claim they believe in free speech and "British" values. I trust the landlord reported the matter to the police. Anyone see that silly pillock in a white coat, with a colander on his head, in the news item about the BNP manifesto launch yesterday?

Then there's the startling news that the BNP is being sued by Marmite for using the Marmite logo in the BNP election broadcast. If it wasn't so funny it would be hilarious.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: MC Fat
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 06:12 AM

Spoke to Simon last night. As I said the landlord has a young family and I suspect (as I do know him) that it was because of this he was phased. A few weeks earlier a UKIP right wing pillock was mouthing of and I gave him (the UKIP guy) a bit of a verbal bashing the landlord joined in as well.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: kendall
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 06:24 AM

Oh my, oh dear, I wonder if they resent my flying the flag of St. George? Whatever shall I do? (I think some of you can guess)

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 06:31 AM

I think that may be a bit unfair, Ruth. I can well understand your reaction but on reading MC's notes I don't think we can blame the landlord really. Family always comes first and putting them above customers in a potentialy threatening situation is what I would have done too. Still a sad day for us all though:-(

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:25 AM

D el G: My entire message was from Abi, the event organiser.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:29 AM

Thanks Ruth - I thought the last be was yours - Sorry! I rephrase my comment - I think Abi may be being a bit unfair etc.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Mr Red
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:33 AM

Then there's the startling news that the BNP is being sued by Marmite for using the Marmite logo in the BNP election broadcast. If it wasn't so funny it would be hilarious.

sounds very appropriate. You either love them/it or you hate them/it.

put me down for the latter, (twice).

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:45 AM

Just ot of interest. Since the moratorium on discusing right wing politics there have been some interesting developments on the other 'mudcats'.

Hot of the press from Belollocks (long may they live) -

Ruth Archer

Dave, My entire message was from Abi Gibbens the event organiser. He didn't arrive at the event, he spent the week with Joan Crump...

It continues but is not worth the effort.

It also appears that they have won a great victory at the Mudcat -

Helen Treacy

Dave,
I was just talking to my friend in Surrey, and she said as a week has passed without anything negative against the BNP said on mudcat that Tom,Vic, Irene, Tam, Gervase Jeri,Kat, Bruce, Les and John are all leaving for a well earned rest, I hope they enjoy it. I wish the others could join them. Such a pity Dave wouldn't take a rest and enjoy some time with family.

Love as always
Helen.

Nice to see people so in touch with reality:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Jeri
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 09:54 AM

Dave, it's so nice of you to re-publish what they write and spread the word. I'm sure they thank you from the bottom of what they're using for hearts. Nice volunteer work for them.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 10:06 AM

Jeri - Sod off.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 12:22 PM

I don't have "sympathy" with the landlord. He should have told the BNP to sod off, and told the police what he had done and why. That's what they are there for. To keep public order.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 12:51 PM

Yep - OK. Maybe I was a bit unfair on Abi as well. On reflection the landlord did make a bad decision. I am not sure if I would have done any better on the spur of the moment. I like to think so but I don't really know. He should have gone ahead and he will probably regret the decision now. I still sympathise with him as he had a tough choice to make but I can see, with th ebenefit of hindsight, how it was the wrong one.

Cheers

DeF

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 01:32 PM

Just call me Dave the Fencesitter from now on... :-)

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 04:27 PM

for the record... I do not have a Bebo account. I don;t know who Helen Treacy is nor do i care.

Also for the record having already heard of the shut down of one mudcatter's folk club due to fear of BNP retaliation, I can understand why this pub owner chose not to risk that threat. I wouldn't want the filth getting anywhere near touching my children either. If the family live on the same premises as the pub, what kind of danger does that put those kids in? Doesn't matter if it is probably an idle threat as these cowardly dick heads are wont to make. Just not worth it.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 24 Apr 10 - 07:24 PM

Makes a change to find myself in full agreeement The Echo , but as long as they are allowed to get away with it the Idiots will use their Scare Tactics to stop other publicans excercising their rights .

    The police should ave been informed IMMEDIATELY !

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: MC Fat
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 05:13 AM

Givw the chap a break.He has a young family and lives on the premises. This particular landlord supports live music. He has bands on Fri Sat and sometimes Sun, a comedy club did have a Folk Session till last Novembers. Supported the last Sheffield Folk Festival. The desicion will not have been taken lightly.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 05:17 AM

I can't help feeling the landlord may come to regret his decision. If the BNP now have him marked down as someone they can push around, they'll be back. It would be better to offer him support than condemnation.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 05:46 AM

Given the interest the police usually show in BNP threats and tha fact that even if the police were interested they could not escort the landlord's family 24/7 I think the landlord was very wise. It does however show the nature of the BNP ever more clearly.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 05:48 AM

Department of interesting coincidences. I got down to one of our local FAF events last night to find the gig had almost been cancelled. Turned out one of the bar staff received an anonymous phone call from some gutless wonder saying there would be violence if the event went ahead.

Fortunately the manager knew perfectly well there wouldn't be and told the bloke to f**k off.

The gig went ahead and it turned out to be very successful. The pub sold a lot of pints, it raised quite a bit of money, and we made some very useful contacts. And of course there was no bother at all.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Anne Lister
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 06:21 AM

Leaving aside all question of FAF - I think it is exceedingly worrying in the run-up to a General Election if an event which has nothing to do with the election is cancelled because of threats of violence from a party seeking to have candidates elected. This puts our country in the same league as other countries where the electoral system is at risk from thugs, bullies and blackmailers. The police should definitely have been informed and this whole sorry saga should be given press coverage so that anyone considering voting for the BNP can be fully informed about the nature of the party.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: TheSnail
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 06:57 AM

But has he made them any safer by giving in to them? What will they "ask" him to do next?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 07:15 AM

"Whilst FAF and the BNP are busy fighting each other, people are getting worried that it will only lead to voilence and innocent people getting hurt."

Let's get something absolutely clear: FAF is not "fighting" anyone. We are not affiliated with any organisations which advocate violent protest, and there has been NO violence at any FAF event. No innocent people are getting hurt.

The BNP and its supporters threaten violence against anyone who dares to speak out against them. These are the politics of violence, intimidation and fear. Surely in a democracy, a "legitimate" political party should not being tactics of intimidation in order to silence any opposing views. Members of the folk community have the choice to get involved, or not.

"Don't make folk music the reason for trying to defeat them."

Umm, who is? Visit the website. Find out what FAF is actually doing before you start telling us that we shouldn't be doing it. FAF was started to repel the attempts of the BNP to make folk music and culture a part of its tidy little package of Englishness, which it is trying to sell wholesale to a disaffected electorate. FAF essentially exists to say, "Not in our name". Within that is an implicit abhorrance of everything the BNP stands for, and a fear that their twisted nationalism will, if unchecked, take root and poison the culture and the music that we love. But folk is not being used as a tool with which to fight them - instead, FAF is simply saying "hands off".

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 08:36 AM

Good. With the unlamented departure of this orthographically- and grammatically-challenged Guest who couldn't even be bothered to look at a webpage and find out what FaF is, perhaps the facts can be extricated from the idiotic fantasies. The BNP threatened the landlord with "bad news", not a gun and firebomb attack on residents under his roof. And this means what? That the BNP will take their custom elsewhere? Sounds like good news to me. If it happens.

What is bad news is that some people can condone intimidation for the sake of what? A quiet life? That's the last outcome such a landlord will get, having rolled over so pathetically and given in to fascists who are now likely to stroll in and take over the pub.

Local people have missed out on a great night of music, and possibly lost a pub they can never visit again. A pub landlord I knew once long ago let the meeting room to the local fascists. The very same room was used weekly for our club. We picketed the pub and the fascists didn't hold their meeting. And we told the landlord that if he ever pulled the same trick again, the club would move. He didn't.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 08:40 AM

I am someone who lives near the pub and was intending to go to the event.

I confess to a certain amount of ambivalence. I agree with Jim about the landlord's fear for his young family and of course I agree that comes first.

On the other hand I feel it is wrong to give in to bully boys and as Diane says police are there for such occasions. What would the landlord do if he got a message asking for protection money?

The one good thing is that some of the artists believe that the resultant publicity has done the BNP as much harm as good.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 11:49 AM

""The one good thing is that some of the artists believe that the resultant publicity has done the BNP as much harm as good.""

While I tend to agree with some of what you say Dave, this comment would only be true if that publicity were being disseminated across a much broader spectrum than the local rag, and a fairly obscure folk music forum.

It isn't enough to stop one local candidate. That is why we all need to pester our would-be representatives, of all parties, and in all areas of the country.

I've already had a go at both main party candidates, and am planning to rattle the LibDem's cage, and the Greens.

If enough people shout loudly enough in their ears, they just may begin to understand what is meant by "Harrassment", and do something.

It will take all of us to make a dent in their indifference.

Same procedure for the national "Meejah".

Don T.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: michaelr
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 01:05 PM

It's appalling that such intimidation should be successful. This sort of acquiescence is what made possible the rise of fascism in Hitler's Germany.

For evil to succeed, all it needs is good folks doing nothing. Which is exactly what the bastards count on.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 01:18 PM

what made possible the rise of fascism in Germany?
well a number of things,
1, somebody had to finance, Hitler.
2,succesful propoganda,Goebbels believed in publicity,whether it was good or bad,he believed that if you told a lie ofen enough people would believe it.
it wasnt just people acquiescing that made Hitler successful,although that was acontributory factor.
Hitlers rallies had to be financed,they were financed by capitalists wgho saw Hitler as a useful way of dealing with communism.
anti communism is even to be seen on this forum,where some months ago Guest Ralphie,described the Morning Star as a commie rag.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 01:19 PM

For evil to succeed, all it needs is good folks doing nothing.

Amen, Michael - I hope everyone understands this message.

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 04:00 PM

Smiler, having seen what else you say I am sad you agreed with me.

There are two causes that badly need people to stand up against the BNP. Such stances never make things worse.

The two causes are to repel the BNP from using folk music as a twisted mirror of their preferred all-white society and to repel them full stop.

Few of of us are justified in criticising the landlord who put safety first, much as we might have preferred that he had not. The few who might take a superior stance would be those who have actually stood up against fascist threats, but there aren't many of the international brigade left now are there?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 04:29 PM

"What we don't need is people to tell us how we should deal with such shocking issues. Help yes."

Smiler, I now know who you are. I agree - I would not condemn the landlord personally. When you are threatened by thugs, it can be very distressing and no one can tell you the "right" way is to respond.

At the end of last week I brought a number of things to the attention of people who are well placed to help us to publicise the bullying and intimidation that many have been suffering as a result of simply supporting FAF. It isn't on, and I look forward to watchinging all of this shit score a spectacular PR own-goal for the BNP. It will be most pleasing just before the election. And hopefully the resulting media attention will ensure that the police start to take it all very seriously indeed.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Apr 10 - 11:21 PM

Oh really? I don't know who the smiling anonymous guest is and I deplore being addressed personally by my first name (albeit misspelled in common with the rest of the hysterical outpourings) by someone who does not know me nor of my involvement in anti-fascism and music, often simultaneously, since the 1970s.

On the basis of what I know, I continue to blame the Sheffield landlord entirely. Such behaviour is pathetic and dangerous. As is that of someone who starts up a venue, finds it isn't making them money and chucks in the towel and looks around for someone else to blame.

You oppose fascism or you don't. (Source: a foreign editor with whom I worked for many years who had been at Cable Street and then went out to Spain with the International Brigades).

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 12:16 AM

St George was a Roman soldier who was martyred for adhering to his Christianity before it became the state religion after Constantine.

You can't blame the landlord it's not his fight and it's his family and his living, he shouldn't be the martyr and maybe he didn't realise the implications of this particular St George's Day event. .

Now if the show was in a public venue or the open air and billed explicitly for what its purpose is, like the rallies of the 30s and Rock against Racism that would be different.
My dad went to jail for fighting Mosley's fascists in the street and went out to Spain too. Sticking a badge on a guitar may not be enough

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 01:51 AM

Please remember that NO Guest posts are allowed on threads having to do with the BNP or Folk Against Fascism. I have deleted a number of Guest posts from this thread. If you want to post, you must be logged in.
No exceptions.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:00 AM

Diane, you may have the courage to risk life and limb, and indeed the life and limb of your family, and I would admire that. But I do not expect it of everybody.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:24 AM

Diane, the landlord was asked if the orgsanisers could hold a gig in his pub. He has a young family. He was threatened with "trouble" if the gig went ahead. People respond in lots of different ways to these kinds of threats, and if the gig is happening effectively in your home, as is the case with a pub, it's easy to feel you are exposing your family to risk.

It's not a nice decision to have to make, and perhaps his reaction was knee-jerk and disproportionate to the expressed threat, but I still can't find it in me to condemn him for it. With the greatest of respect, I'm not sure how your own experience of fighting fascism in the 70s is relevant. The landlord is not a campaigner - he simply agreed to host a gig. While giving in may lead the BNP to think that they've won, it's important that the news of what happened is spread as widely as possible, as exposing the BNP's tactics shows them for the nasty thugs they are, despite claims to the contrary.



mikesamwild, the landlord did know what sort of gig it was. The leaflets stated very clearly that the event was a Folk Against Fascism/Hope not Hate gig. There are all kinds of ways of defeating the current threat from the BNP. FAF is an awareness-raising campaign. No one is suggesting that stickers on guitars are going to defeat fascism, but if they do the job they were intended for - helping artists to repel attempts by the BNP to hijack their music in a very public way - they will have contributed to undermining this current BNP tactic of attempting to cloak itself in respectability and legitimacy.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:27 AM

Sorry, I think I was one of the guests - I couldn't be bothered logging in for a quick visit and had forgotten 'twasn't allowed.

Trying to stick to just facts, as I am one of the people who would have attended.

'Sticking a badge on a guitar may not be enough ' -I agree, which is why I was going!!

'Now if the show was in a public venue or the open air and billed explicitly for what its purpose is...'

In a public bar. No admission fee. And the publicity stated: (sorry I can't do font sizes etc)

                  HOPE NOT HATE
                      and
             Folk against Fascism (in large red letters)
                  
                   present
               A St Georges Eve
       English Folk Night Celebration


Now for opinion. I too am sympathetic towards the landlord, who remember was given FALSE INFORMATION about the gig (but who didn't check with the organiser). At the same time I do wonder what he would say to his kids if they were threatened by a school bully and caved in.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 06:00 AM

Joan, my response was addressed to a snivelling anonymous "smiling" Guest who had launched a gratuitous attack specifically on you and me, telling us that we "didn't know what we were talking about". This has since been removed, possibly before you saw it.

My mention of activism in the 70s was a reference to when this struggle was last a big issue and my account of how a pub landlord was dissuaded from letting his premises to a fascist group an illustration of the other side of the coin. Certainly we raised his consciousness (or at least drew his attention to loss of profit if his pub were boycotted as a music venue).

Concurrently, Rock Against Racism had limited success then sunk below the horizon. Job not yet done so FaF and Hope Not Hate need to step into the breach. I was yards away from where Kevin Gately was murdered during an anti-fascist demonstration in Red Lion Square and similarly close to where Blair Peach died in Southall. If anyone started telling me it would be "understandable" if I scaled down my anti-fascist stance I'd deck them.

Wearing badges is not enough.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Wyrd Sister
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 06:56 AM

Given that Guest post will be deleted, I quote: "If you don't cave in to the school bully, you get beaten up. Ask any victim."

That doesn't make bullying right, or mean no-one should stand up to bullies.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 07:57 AM

meanwhile Nick Griffin has compared Barking to Nairobi, this gives a whole new slant on Barking, all I can say is he must be Barking.,or could he be up Barking creek without a paddle.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 08:28 AM

The Police should have been informed and remember this state of affairs could spread as clearly these threads give a location re pub ,field weekend etc.

The Landlord should have informed the police and then the brewery and then carried on with the event.

I hope future events will not succumb to this intimidation and Nazi Brown shirt tactics.

I am a non Fascist but I put this to you all?

Who is the more Fascist ?

The Fascist, or the non fascist who tells people and slags people off about who they should and should not vote for?                "Simples"

To the BMP stay away you are not folk in regards to these events and I ask non fascists to stop throwing stones at the pit balls.
Regards
Pierre.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 08:34 AM

On Sheffield Forum the thread seems to have been blocked to further debate, strange!

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Morris-ey
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 08:45 AM

It it very easy to be brave on someone's behalf.

I have no problem with the landlord erring on the side of caution given the Police's very poor record in responding to threats of intimidation.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 09:05 AM

I agree but I fear for future events that such things has above will become all the rage.
a blind man can see that?

The police have enough to contend with anti social behavior do we want our events over policed and our folk pub sessions banned. because although the BMP cannot be ignored this TIT for TAT Laurel and Hardy par-larva with get out of hand clearly and the authorities will clamped down on the Events not the BMP I work for the War museum in London and have done so for nearly 12 years and history is showing a repetition on a minute scale and that is worrying.
Look back through history

The police should be informed with out doubt the fact they wont react I believe is a government issue.
regards Pierre.

Bloody Parlarva

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 03:54 PM

My partner ran a pub and got into trouble and was threatened by a criminal family . Despite lots of evidence the police were no use and she dropped the proceedings to protect her nearest and dearest..

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Sandman
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 04:53 PM

the Police are very useful when it comes to raising revenue,for the government.
enforcing speeding fines,checking out of date car tax etc etc.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Bernard
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:40 PM

For what it's worth, there is a village near Manchester (UK) called Partington, and there used to be two pubs in the centre.

A few years ago, drug pushers took offence at the two respective landlords' attempts to bar them from undertaking their activities on their premises, and the nett result (vandalism and arson) was that both pubs had to close, and have since been demolished.

The Police and other public authorities were powerless to prevent this happening...

Yes, you can accuse the Sheffield landlord of being spineless, but it's better than the possible alternative...

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: TheSnail
Date: 26 Apr 10 - 05:50 PM

So we just throw in the towel and hand over the country to the BNP and the drug pushers?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 04:14 AM

A stand CAN be taken sucessfuly by co-operation between police and public but it does take some doing - and often a kick up the pants for the contabulary. A pub a couple of miles from us, The Rainscough Brew, (Used to be the Staff of Life - On Rainscough Brow) was featured on TV as being a centre of drug pushing and protection rackets in Salford. The police were shown up in a bad light and of course that spurred them into action - The place was cleaned up within weeks and stayed so for years.

It has been demolished since, but nothing to do with crime. Probably lack of custom seeing as it was only criminals used to drink there!

Morals? Well, one may be that not everyone wants their pubs cleaned up but if they do - Get the police on your side!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 05:18 AM

Snail - you may risk what you like, (and maximum respect if you do) but it is not your place nor anyone else's to risk the lives of others.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 05:49 AM

Please don't attack for what I haven't said, Richard. Read my first post. The landlord has lost the support of the the event organisers, he won't go to the police and the BNP now see him as a pushover. Do you really think his family are safer for his decision? Should the two landlords that Bernard spoke of have given in to the drug pushers to save their pubs?

I'm not asking for individual acts of heroism. I'm asking for a united front against the bastards. Isn't that what this is about?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 06:26 AM

I have read the entire thread more than once.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 06:50 AM

Leaving me a little unclear on what you are attacking me for.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 09:22 AM

It could be that other regulars weren't to keen either for various reasons and put some pressure on.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 10:59 AM

Made by FAF supporters in Sheffield

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 01:43 PM

No black faces apert from the made up Molly Dancers. Is British culture all white or is it already appropriated without the BNP muscling in? St George is patroon saint of lots of countries, creeds and ethnicity already, although he does seem to get involved in mumming plays that slay dusky Saracens etc so maybe he's been mixed up wih Crusaders although he was a Christian Roman soldier in pagan times ( the Dragon may have been the perceived pagan threat after he was taken up by the Roman empire and later the church) Now he can be claimed as a champion by other groups so we have a struggle . Maybe it's time for a non canonised secular, non racist national hero/heroine. Any suggestions?

I must say i love Morris and wouldn't just want the odd token steel band thrown in either ! Maybe next year a truly representative day would be nice.

The video wasn't FAF it was of the Council backed event

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: TheSnail
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 01:59 PM

mikesamwild

Is British culture all white or is it already appropriated without the BNP muscling in?

Isn't the idea that being white and being interested in British traditional music makes you a BNP supporter precisely what we are fighting against?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 03:52 PM

From all the folk-related BNP activities I'd say there was a perfect TV documentary in there. Now, who do we know who can pull some strings? Let's out the bastards!

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 03:55 PM

Snail, I can wholeheartedly agree with that.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Apr 10 - 06:09 PM

I would suggest you do your homework mikesamwild. The number of 'black faces' represented in English folk is well established as shown by the number of acts from black and other ethnic origins that are well known in the 'folk circuit'. What would you suggest? Force people who are not interested in folk music and morris dance to support it? We just have to accept that traditional arts are a minority in themselves. Within that minority we are lucky to have the support of some people from all races, colour and creeds. Maybe we just don't appeal to the majority of black youngsters, just as we don't appeal to the majority of white ones either!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:10 AM

It's a sad bad fact that very few black people are interested in folk music. Ok., that's partly because they have their own music and good luck to them. But to what extent is it also due to those folk revivalists who used to believe that the only folk music worth listening to was British and white?

BNP thickos. One of the tv news channels was in Oldham yesterday, discussing the effect of immigration on the local parliamentary vote. They asked to speak to the BNP candidate. "Oh, he's not giving interviews until after the election." After some badgering the party apparatchiks seem to have told the reporter that their candidate wasn't even in the northwest!

Obviously too embarressing for the BNP to say they hadn't a hope in hell of winning in Oldham, so they'd appointed a paper candidate, who wasn't capable of giving interviews. Did the nazis look this ludicrous when they got going?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 05:26 AM

"But to what extent is it also due to those folk revivalists who used to believe that the only folk music worth listening to was British and white?"

Well...the world music phenomenon, which wiped the floor with British folk commercially in the 80s and 90s, was all about traditional music from other places, notably Africa and South East Asia. One of the things that you'd notice, though, at gigs or if you went to festivals like Womad, is that the audiences were still predominantly white. This is why I don't really buy this idea that folk music attracts mostly white audiences because of trends within the revival, or because of some inherent sense of "this isn't for you, it's only for us" - because programming music by black artists within genres that are deeply rooted within black traditional music does not necessarily translate to substantial black audiences, either.

I've got lots of theories about the whys and wherefores of this (because of the work I've done in culturally diverse audience development), but I won't bore you with them. :)

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:24 AM

Ruth,

True, but I'm thinking of the real bad old days in the 60s and 70s when the revival was uncomfortably claustrophobic in its approach to music. The era could be summed up by one nutter who complained about "foreign" folk music being broadcast on Folk on 2 (I think). "I felt like a foreigner in my own country".

Wouldn't it be grand if black people could be persuaded to dig the Carolina Chocolate Drops.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 06:53 AM

Worth a separate thread? Although I think it has been discussed before.

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: buddhuu
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:26 AM

@ Fred: I'd never heard of that band. They're fun. Thanks for the tip! :-)

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:40 AM

el Gnomo do your own homework I was commenting on that particular video which I think would send out the wrong signal in multicultural Sheffield. Fred ,black people might be interested in their folk music. I agree about the Chocolate Drops, at a concert in Sheffield there was only one person of colour and she's a folkie. I bet if you put on a blues artist black peole wouldn't turn out and I've seen very few at 'World Music' festivals either., they've moved on and that may be why the Chocolate Drops are seen as an anachronism ( I loved them mind). Billy Connolly told a tale of a black Anmerican who said ' bros don't like yeehah and banjos! when he saw Billy's banjo tattoo'


Ruth I'd like to hear your views, can you start another thread as the Gnome suggested?.


After my earlier post I fell to wondering why St George's Day is such a non-event. Maybe we should go back to Mayday on May 1st whenever it falls and have a traditional day of misrule to equal St Patrick's Day. Green Persons all over the place rustling their leaves, black faced chimney sweeps, milkmaids, etc etc . Then back on your heads next day and social order reestablished. The toffs and their agents always did win!.


I think MayDay was wrecked by the powersthatbe because of its perceived Red connections - and it was appropriated, again by Left and Right ite past. Now you have to go to Padstow to get a taste of it or some of the revivals..


Where are you hgoing for MayDay 1st or 7th?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 09:52 AM

el Gnomo do your own homework

To difficult, Mike - I would need to go to Sheffield and check what colour all the performers were under their various disguises, check the ethnicity ratio of the crowd against that of the performers and then make up some facts to fit the theory. And I am no politician:-)

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 10:43 AM

Sorry - toO difficult - I was not addressing you as difficult Mike - Honest!

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Penny S.
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:07 AM

In a recent history magazine - don't know if it was the Beeb one or History Today, there was an interesting suggestion made about the adoption of St George for England. Not only did he supplant Edward the Confessor after the return of the Crusaders, but the change came under Edward II, just before he went into Wales. Not good, if you think about it.

Penny

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: IanC
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:32 AM

St George is quite interesting and, I think, very appropriate as a patron for England.

Firstly, since patrons don't supplant each other, England has 3 patron saints ... Edmund The Martyr(d.869), Edward "The Confessor"(d.1066) and George of Lydda (d.275-285 approx) ... all of them are, in the original, examples of Christian forbearance.

Forget the dragon (a far later tale). George was chosen by the Normans because of his appearance to their armies (from 1063 onwards) and leading them from defeat to Victory. Before that, though, George was very important in England. He was mentioned as a seminal Christian figure by Bede (c730) and there were a relatively large number of English churches dedicated to George before the conquest. The original George was executed by beheading after various torture sessions, during which he continued to object to the Romans' cruel treatment of Christians.

We didn't just forget our other patrons either. St Edmund's banner was carried at the battle of Agincourt

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Rob Naylor
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 11:34 AM

It's not just that May Day has been politicised at various times: I can think of at least 2 formerly regular events locally that have been cancelled due to HSE/ insurance issues...one village event was quoted £3000 insurance premium for a single day, just to put up a maypole, some stalls and a bit of music. What parish council's going to cover that?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Mick Woods
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:02 PM

"It's a sad bad fact that very few black people are interested in folk music"

This is certainly not the case at the folk club that I and two friends run every Tuesday at Blackheath Folk Club And if you listen to the MP3 by young Immanuel that is on the front of our website, he sings "You welcome me with open arms" We now number at least half a dozen regular Black and Asian performers. This brings a rich quality and diversity to our weekly sessions that are becoming so popular that the Pub is packed by 9pm every week!

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 12:34 PM

I wrote a song about Edmund called the Curse of Hoxne bridge,There is supposed to be a curse on this bridge which related to newly married couples,Edmund was betrayed by a newly wed couple ,legend has it he was hiding under the bridge,and a newly married couple were going over the bridge and spotted Edmund,and reported his hiding place to the danes
The song is in my songbook The Sailors Dream.
I had no idea that Edmund was the patron saint of England before George,perhaps we should START celerating St Edmunds Day as well,I believe its nov 20.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 03:31 PM

Mick Woods , that's great news reminds me of the heady days of two tone music! a common opposition to 'Nationalists'

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Mick Woods
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:31 PM

These are the current "HeadY Days" embrace them - enjoy the music - don't get sucked into the quagmire!

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:33 PM

If this serious event is true re threats and closure and the Police wouldnt do anything about it why have I not read anything regarding the incident in the papers? Where was this incident and what was the name of the pub ? and exactly who was behind the threats?

I work in a public building and I can find no trace.
Kindest regards Pierre.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Pierre Le Chapeau
Date: 28 Apr 10 - 07:48 PM

I have access for much recent news at work may it be national or village?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 02:28 AM

"The number of 'black faces' represented in English folk is well established as shown by the number of acts from black and other ethnic origins that are well known in the 'folk circuit'. What would you suggest? Force people who are not interested in folk music and morris dance to support it?"

FAF and all 'activists' interested in generating a greater inclusive band of interest from ALL members of the UK (such as the white English working-classes, eastern European immigrants and settled urban Blacks etc. etc.) face quite a challenge to educate and encourage people from a variety of backgrounds to realise this stuff is here for you to enjoy and participate in.

However with particular reference to eastern Europeans - who are arguably getting the greatest negative focus from the far right at present - I think there could be a great deal of potential interest for co-operation between eastern European folk musicians and trad. English/British folk artists.

Public Summer FAF events, organised in some of those towns more recently settled by higher quantities of eastern Europeans (and thus of interest to the BNP), could both showcase native folk arts and that of the immigrant population, hopefully in a way that works positively for all.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 02:35 AM

Google 'event cancelled bnp' M. La Chapeau. It is not difficult. You will find this and many other examples.

Crowsis - About the East Europeans - Yes, definitely. We had a 'multi-cultural' event in Salford some years ago. The event itself was staged and OK but a bit dull. The session in pub after was one of the best I have ever attended! Polish singers, Bosnian fiddlers, Slovak Guitarists. Fully integrated with the locals and absolutley wonderful.

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:56 AM

The session in pub after was one of the best I have ever attended!"

Yes, I can imagine. And this is one of the things that brings people of different cultures together. Shared enjoyment. Fun. A Laugh!

A second point to my first about the notion of positively targeting towns with high eastern European immigration, is the idea of FAMILY days. Much of the UK folk world is stuck away in the backroom of pubs and so-on. It'd be good to see more moves to bring British folk out into the sunshine lots more, along the line of some of the free folk fests that are already out there - but making something really local, that represented and celebrated the demographic of the particular area.

But especially where there were opportunities for KIDS of all backgrounds to get together and enjoy singing and storytelling and so-on from the various cultures of the area. The next generation is really the key to everything, and encouraging them at an early age to engage with one others folk culture can only be a good thing.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:59 AM

PS, some of my comments are probably beyond the current and immediate remit of an org. like FAF, but in the long-term, maybe?

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: TheSnail
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:50 AM

Excellent ideas, Crow Sister. When you've organised the first event, let us know.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:09 AM

"PS, some of my comments are probably beyond the current and immediate remit of an org. like FAF, but in the long-term, maybe?"

To clarify what the "organisation" of FAF consists of: it's 5 people. All of whom have other commitments and jobs. FAF the "organisation" doesn't really have a remit to take on major projects - the event on Sunday has been about as much as we can all cope with, in terms of balancing our commitments. The whole point of FAF is that it's a bottom-up organisation, where people can take whatever tools, ideas and support they need, and get on with doing great things. FAF is not just us five - it's all the people who run events and projects.

So go for it, Crowsister - it may not be within the immediate (or even long-term) remit of the FAFcore, but it could certainly be within yours!

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:15 AM

Good lord - I feel like David Cameron.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: goatfell
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:27 AM

you had the SPinners from Liverpool they had a black man called Cliff Hall and what iswrong with that.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:37 AM

Is that anything like 'I feel like a new woman', Ruth? :-)

We did indeed organise a multicultural festival once. We had the Orlek Cossack Dancers who, although mainly English themselves, did bring a lot of family and friends from the Ukraine, Poland and Russia. We also booked Tuup (pronounced toop - Important later) - A wonderful story teller from Ghana who doubled with a local Lancashire story teller in a loose sort of way and between them named their event 'two-up, one down':-)

For me it was one of our best festivals, but (didn't you know there was one of them coming!) we could not have done it without extra funding from North West Arts as they were at the time. I must say though that the funding was quite easy to raise in light of the fact that we were raisung the profile of the event to include an audience that were previously unserved. Which is, I think, a good thing for all concerned.

One aside - Tuup ended up at the wrong pub - another White Lion about 5 miles down the same road, in a particularly depressed area. He had a chat with a couple of people there to get directions and they came along later to see him - Added bonus!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:53 AM

"So go for it, Crowsister - it may not be within the immediate (or even long-term) remit of the FAFcore, but it could certainly be within yours!"

Maybe! Although tbh I'm not in an area where there's any immigration at all to speak of. However, it seems I've possibly got a lot to learn about events management if I'm interested in actively pursuing some of my musings. Is there anywhere on the web which provides a 'crash course' in making things happen, for amateur enthusiasts like me? It would be helpful to get a broad grasp of basic practical stuff, and possible hiccoughs to avoid too.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:55 AM

Hmm, maybe it'd be worth starting an advice thread for peeps interested in creating 'community folk events'.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:23 AM

Maybe the FaF permathread would do for advice and help running events? I would need to check with da management but I can't see any issue with that.

D.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:58 AM

"Maybe the FaF permathread would do for advice and help running events?"

DofE, I think as well as broader advice, it might be worth having a constructive specific discussion about strategies to help volunteers manage and hopefully diffuse problematic issues surrounding possible threats of violence etc.? How to approach landlords as hosts, how to circumvent possible problems of confrontation and so-on. I think recognising potential issues and offering constructive strategies to address them, might possibly help to put some peeps minds at rest.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 07:39 AM

CrowSister I was merely commenting o lack of support for a particular concert by black american musicians here in Sheffield. I'm sure people support the music of their own people. World Music audiences do seem mainly white British over here. I organized a large festival a few years back and got very little interst from the local 'minority population' for groups form all over the world. Maybe the venues are alienating, although a lot were in their local areas.

Mind you the big open air reggae and Dub Step etc events get suport from the youth which cut across all boundaries.

Maybe 'folk'as a genre orlabel just isn't what is interesting to them.My 5 sons were raised ( or dragged )to trad music and have gone into other forms. Mea Culpa ;-)

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:41 AM

Sorry if this is getting further and further off topic. However, I've just heard the odious Mr G spouting his repatriation smokescreen, sorry, policy, or Radio 4's today programme http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8650000/8650909.stm .

Among his more stupid comments was something to the effect that Ireland is a part of Britain and therefore, Irish people would not be barred from entry.

Go on Griffin, I dare you. Stand in O'Connell St in Dublin, armed with a megaphone and shout "Ireland is British". Just see how long it is before somebody puts you right.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:23 PM

Good idea Fred, let's encourage the bastard to go to O'Connell Street and do just that.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:42 PM

The whole "the Irish are just like us" agenda is predicated on a desire to consolidate the support of all white people in the UK against those of a darker hue, and it's no coincidence that the BNP is currently growing its support in Northern Ireland. Not that I would link to their website, but there is a publication currently being touted by the BNP which puts forward some crackpot theory about a common British genetic heritage that includes the Irish, and supposedly pre-dates various Saxon and Norman invasions - and claims that some huge number of people in the UK and Ireland still share this genetic heritage.

The reason for all of this, of course, if you read their propaganda, is because the BNP's current folk devil is not the Eastern Europeans, but Muslims. They are trying to convince everyone who lives in these islands that they have a common heritage which should unite against the threat of the "Islamification" of Britain.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 05:05 AM

Funny, I'm sure that the BNP used to refer to the Irish as "Bogwogs".

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 07:41 AM

This thread is drifting out to the Irish Sea. If we go for the 'Celtic' link then see the thread on The Irish were Egyptians long ago , cos they built the pyramids and noone ese could carry up the bricks!It must have been a Doyle that swam the River Noyle cos noone else would have the guts to fight a crocodoile! Good old stereotype and I come from an Irish family.

Mind all the empty houses in Ireland could be used for all the people Mr G would expel.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:47 AM

Richard Bridge. "Funny, I'm sure that the BNP used to refer to the Irish as "Bogwogs"."

Richard, you're probably right. We are dealing with a bunch of opportunists who will say absolutely anything, and take absolutely any stance, if they think it will help them get into power. EG., how far back does their currrent espousal of Winston Churchill and the spirit of World War 11 go? It's not that long ago that leading lights in the BNP used to argue that we should have been on the side of Hitler instead of entering into a "totally unnecessary" war. And what did they call that gollywog they tried to hang last year in Codnor? Oh yeah, Winston, that was it.

Then there are their sudden changes on global warming and Iraq/Afghanistan, Griffin's reversal over holocaust denial, their denials that they are fascists, and their attempts to play down the BNP's racism.

Any day now I expect them to unveil a new front organisation to combat the "menace" of far right extremism. I can see its name up in lights right now. Fascists Against Fascism.

Ok, all politicians have a long piece of elastic which they call the truth, but Jesus! This crowd wouldn't know the truth if it got off the floor and bit them on the leg. And in case anybody thinks I'm dreaming over BNP claims to combat fascism, it's right there in the new edition of their constitution.

Subject: RE: Fascists Close St George event?
From: mikesamwild
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:12 AM

Nice one Fred. watch it they'll have you as their spin doctor!