BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II

Subject: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 02:16 PM

This thread gathered a great deal of interest over time. Part one of it can be found over here.

As requested i am starting a second chapter for ease of loading.

What started the dialogue was this question, examining the human proclivity for self-deception, rationalization, justification, and other tricks of the mind to change the truth of event or perception:

"If we could feel completely free to be wholly honest in all ways, with ourselves and each other,

(1) what kinds of things would we be honest about? and more important

(2) how would this change the way we feel and act in our ordinary daily lives?

As Áine might say, "double-dog dare ya....". But only answers given freely count... "

Regards,

Amos

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Kim C
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 02:40 PM

Oh man. I don't think I'm ready to be totally honest. Now mind you, I am an honest person, I just don't give away all my secrets. Some because I don't want anyone to know, and others just because want to keep something all to myself. However I am a person who does not really hide things well - I guess my daddy was a glassmaker, so to speak - so sometimes, no matter how much I want to keep something to myself, it comes out anyway.

(does that make any sense?)

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 03:03 PM

I endeavor to be honest with myself. And that is enough, because from that kind of honesty flows everthing else that matters... appropriate speech and appropriate action. When faced with a difficult situation, I try to find out what would be for the highest good of all concerned. Certainly I'm not always successful, but it is worth the attempt, I think.

Carol

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: John Hardly
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 06:06 PM

Humility would force me to understand that my honesty might be honestly wrong.


In human relationships..if prioritizing between honest and humble..give me humble.
John

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 06:46 PM

And I've been taken to task already for having been honest in the first part of this thread.

Do people really WANT honesty, is what I want to know THIS year.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 06:53 PM

Only if it meets their chosen expectations, Susan...

"If my thought-dreams could be seen, they'd probably put my head in a guillotine" - Bob Dylan

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 06:54 PM

I think there's a lot to be said for subtlety and tact. Those concepts don't necessarily preclude honesty. Maybe it's a matter of balancing need with the potential for harm, and then setting about trying to find the most loving way to do what is needed.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 07:08 PM

Yup, LH. I spent a good chunk of tears time last night on that very thing. I encountered the full, unfiltered realization that among all the people I know, each has their own very specific version of who I am supposed to be with and for them, and I realized that none of those versions had a whole lot of correspondence to me, my actual self. Or to the directions I know I need to head in to keep growing, or to what I value, what I expect of myself. It was quite sobering and very, very lonely-fying. I know I donp;t have to be govenred by all those expecations-- but it is frightening to see all at once how many of them I had been TRYING to meet, and all the unhooking necessary to start fresh. And I've been fairly rough in my speech all day as I take that in and process it and let it reach the deeps where it can integrate with the rest of the soup. Oh well. God save me from the fragile when this mood strikes, as it does a few times a year apparently. Remember my odd silences and faraway smile at the Moosewood? That's the alternative to speaking my mind. I don't like either, but I haven't discovered how else to be, just yet. Whaddaya thihk, LH-- d'ya think I could get perfect all in one day somehow?

And LH, to continue on your line of thought, as soon as I can read minds and anticipate how to make everyone happy at once, I know my life is gonna get a whole lot easier. Of course if people would take up their own inherent power instead of choosing to feel overpowered when they encounter me just being myself to the best of my ability-- which I guess varies from day to day like everyone's-- that would be another possible approach.

And as soon as people start tending to their own honesty instead of judging someone else's, I think all our lives will get simpler. Not saying I think it'll happen soon.

God, LH, I miss you. When you comin' south again?

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 07:43 PM

Susan - Probably not coming south for awhile. Truth to tell, I got hit by a pretty bad depression in January & February this year. That may be why I've posted so many ridiculous things lately...just trying to cheer myself up. Anyway, things are starting to move again, it seems. I am definitely feeling better now.

I think one can get away with being pretty honest, providing one resorts to a certain amount of humour when people take it amiss. If you can get them laughing, or get yourself laughing, then it defuses things pretty effectively. Also, if they get the idea that you don't expect them to change the way they are if they don't expect you to change the way you are...it helps...along with that dash of humour.

I've mostly learned not to let it hurt me when people fail utterly to appreciate something that is important or dear to me. Mostly.

Sometimes I still get caught offguard.

I did notice those little nuances at the Moosewood, and boy I was sure curious what you were thinking! I am really usually delighted to hear what anyone is thinking...doesn't mean I have to believe in it myself...but it's always interesting to hear what they have to say.

Every human being is a whole universe of extraordinary characteristics. Everyone is a walking mystery.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 08:11 PM

Of course, there's always the delicate issue of finding the fine line between opinion and truth. That's a pretty sticky one, I think.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Sorcha
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 08:19 PM

Whizzy, you got to remember: "You can please some of the people all of the time; you can please all of the people all of the time, but you can never please all of the people all of the time." and then there is:

"To thine own self, be true"

Choose your people, and choose your arena, OK? Prioritze, woman, prioritize. "Love yourself as you love others"....etc, etc, etc.

I gather you're not in much better shape than I am, but remember- - -it's FEBBLUEBERRY!!!

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: wysiwyg
Date: 23 Feb 01 - 09:38 PM

LH, I'm glad you're beginning to thaw. Dang, I wish I'd known. Dang. I really wish I'd known. As far as what I was thinking that night, I don't remember specifically; I just remember the feeling of incredible caution shutting me up, shutting me down, being cornered... temporarily paralyzed after having taken more than enough crap that week that actually had nothing to do with me-- and I knew you saw some of that and if you recall I shared some of the reasons for it then. As far as the thoughts themselves-- we could talk all night about such things but I suspect that the best understanding we'd reach would be just being aware of one another as we were at Moosewood. Watching each other's wheels turn. It's probably a higher state of being than all the talking would be. Don't you think?

Sorcha-- Actually I am in great shape, BesBud, if a bit ragged around the edges. It's walking around numb and unaware that reads as death to me. Much better to work through stuff. I may not be able to help having had bad things happen to me in the past, and having feelings left over to deal with, but I don't have to keep myself stuck in them. It always cracks me up to see people fidgeting about my being tactless, or whatever-- since I can look back over the last 5, 10, 20, 30 years or more, and see that I am actually getting more and more tactful all the time! (And we had a great unexpected jam with strangers this afternoon as a reward of sorts for the stuff that had been worked through-- I'd really like to write about THAT.)

LH, Sorch-- I think it boils down to one's view of the human bean. If one views the human bean at any one point in its life and applies evaluation and judgement based just on that view, we all look pretty silly, and I think pretty scary and even maybe worthless. But if we choose the view that everyone has been in one place and is going in some direction from there, a lot of things that otherwise seem completely nonsensical suddenly make sense. The question is, do you see LIFE in PROCESS or not, because I think if you don't you have a dead view.

When we have ALL the information available, it usually turns out that no matter what the momentary appearance, people are very, very busily engaged in doing the best they can at any given moment. And trying to do even better than that, for the sake of continuing to move forward. (I do a pretty good job of remembering that about people close to me, and I know it's something they count on me for, but it's harder for me with people who aren't as close. I'm sure I need to work on it. It will probably turn out that I HAVE been working on just that.)

People who feel safe talking about such things will generally make that real easy to see. LH feels a certain degree of safety with me, for example, for a variety of reasons, so he speaks to me openly, and I feel the same about him, so I am open with him. My friendships are limited to people who deal on that level. People who don't want to deal on that level... I actually do a lot in the world to help people who are not my friends, but here? At the Mudcat? I'm taking Spaw's wonderful advice. Use this as a place to let go, build myself up, etc. Know what? To me that means, "What You See Is What You Get." I know who my friends are, and they know who they are, and the rest? It'll have to take care of itself. I have stuff to do.

Now this thread is not supposed to be about ME, it's supposed to be about what YOU all think about YOUR lives-- read the opening post! Let's move ON.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:31 AM

I remember this remarkable thread. Many 'Catters, including me, didn't post in it but my guess is that many 'Catters, including me, found it fascinating. I'm in awe at the level of honesty some people were able to reach in it. Thank you very much.

Honesty, tact, truth, candidness, insight, clarity, acceptance and tolerance, compassion toward oneself and others- there are so many facets to the subject.

However, there is one point I would make: sometimes when someone makes a remark that stings, it is helpful to realize that sometimes you were meant to be only a pair of ears, it may not have been directed at you at all. For instance, when a slim person says in dismay, "I've gained three pounds- I've got to start watching what I eat", she is measuring herself by how she wants to think of herself; she is not telling you that you need to watch what you eat. The same thing is true of many other remarks and actions.

The older I get the less time I have for hurt feelings. As long as I can see where it's coming from and why (and one always does eventually), I refuse to be hurt.

On the other hand, when I hurt someone else it is almost invariably a lashing out in reaction before I have had time to assimilate a hurtful thing. There is where I want to get better; there is what causes my remorse. The quick, loaded retort is my downfall.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:40 AM

So, Amos, are you suggesting that one can be half honest? A quarter honest? An eighth honest perhaps?

Aren't you either honest or dishonest? If not, then aren't you suggesting that one can be half pregnant; a quarter pregnant; an eighty pregnant, whatever?

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: JudeL
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:38 AM

Of course there are shades of grey - Honesty like truth, is a concept and as such is not necessarily an absolute - it may be partially dependant upon perspective, beliefs and situation. How, when and the completeness of something said can be just as important as what is said. You can say things which you believe true but without the rest of the picture or an idea of their importance in the grand scheme of things may lead to a false interpretation or incomplete undertanding. Is that dishonest? Or just human. Jude

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 07:36 AM

I've been reading these postings, and finding them all very heartfelt. And dare I say, honest? I just wanted to add a couple of things. I noticed that after the first couple of postings, the first part of this thread was left behind... being honest with yourself. I've been thinking about that a lot, as I was challenged by a Pastor friend to see myself as God sees me. Whether you believe in God or not, it gets down to the basic FIRST PART of this thread. I think that the reason that idea is so threatening is because we see it as stripping away all pretense and self-rationalization, leaving ourselves with no defenses. That's only half of it, though. If we could see ourselves with complete honesty (as God sees us,) we'd see some beautiful things in ourselves that we tend to ignore. If we are to love each other as we love ourselves, then we darned well better love ourselves first. The more we love ourselves, the more we can love others. Most of us are far better than we give ourselves credit for. We have great gifts.. each and every one of us, and a potential we haven't even touched. If we could stand to face our rationalizations and false motives for good deeds, then we could change. It would mean giving up things that we love, but know are wrong. Someone told me once that sacrifice is giving up something good for a greater good. It's a wonderful, and true definition.

On the second half.. being honest with others.. let all things be guided by love. One of my sons said once, "If someone says, "I tell it the way it is," get out of the room as fast as you can." You know that people who say that aren't talking about compliments they're handing out. It's the other end of the stick.

And, to quote Ricky Nelson.. "You can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself." I spent too much of my life trying to please everyone, and ended up pleasing no one... myself, least of all. There is only one who needs to be pleased.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 08:01 AM

Jerry, I can totally relate to what you are saying.
I use to do things for others because I thought people would love me if I was a good person.
Underneath that thought was a foundation of 'I am not worthy of love'. I felt I had to earn the love I received.
So I stopped doing things for other, I started doing things for myself. And at the same time I also started to realize through lots of digging and releasing old crap that I am loved, just as I am. That I need do nothing more than be Bonnie to be loved. That I am of value and worth without having to prove it.
So now I am back to doing things for other, but my giving is coming from a better place. I now do things for others because I feel loved and I have more space and energy to love others the same.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:18 AM

Little Neo:

Good for you. If we could only show the compassion for ourselves that we show for others, we would be able to give of ourselves more freely. People confuse loving yourself with being self-centered and selfish. The truth is, until you love yourself, you will be doomed to being self-centered. It is a true sign of inner peace when you see someone who is looking beyond themselves. Folks who didn't like you when you were trying to please them won't like you when you aren't. No loss.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:21 AM

One more thing... I read a great statement a long time ago:

Love without honesty is sentimentality Honesty without love is cruelty

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: LR Mole
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 10:29 AM

Paul Krassner once wrote, "Honesty has to be tempered with compassion or else it's just showing off rather than communicating." True, sometimes. It can certainly be used to sting and not to help.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:32 PM

Jerry, how about folks who love you while you are trying to please them, but feel discarded when you stop. Now that can be a problem. Yet it all works out in the end if you can love them from the right place. A place where you are not seeking their approval.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: annamill
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:46 PM

Well, interesting subject. I've been thinking about it and I've found that, basically, I am honest. ...but.. if I were to ask where do I think I would like to be MORE honest, it would be to all the people I owe money to. None of them want honesty though. They just want to be paid.

I wish I could send them all a letter stating all my bills, prioritized, with dates they would all be paid. They don't want that, they want money.

Oh, well. Next month I should have most of them paid and then, I could be honest again.

Meanwhile, I've substituted my feelings of self-esteem with madness and anxiety.

Love (really and truely), Annamill

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 12:52 PM

Honesty is the best policy, but there are some situations where it falls on dear ears. In such a case, either say what works best for all concerned or don't say anything whatsoever. "Even a fool is thought wise, who remains silent."

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Amos
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:02 PM

Honesty and effectiveness are two sides of right action.

The greatest single thing you can do to help yourself is to be honest with yourself above all else.

The second is to be honest with your friends.

I dunno about total honesty with enemies, though.

A

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 01:48 PM

Neo: People who love you only when you are pleasing them don't love you. They love being pleased.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 03:17 PM

True Jerry, but if you can still love them even if they are behaving rotten, now thats walking on water for ya.

Little Neo

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 03:21 PM

If I were totally honest I'd tell people to quit laying on ME the responsibility for how THEY are feeling, on those occasions when I can clearly see them screwing themselves into the ground all by themselves. It's the dumbest way I know, to get at one's own unresolved issues, to do that-- and I've done it myself-- but I am no good at telling people to knock it the hell off when they run it at me. (I have appreciated it when it's been said to me, BTW.)

And it's too bad, too, because it's no help to them when I allow it to continue and then, later, repeat itself.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:04 PM

Amos - Regarding enemies... Yeah. Depends on what level you're working at, though. Most higher spiritual teachings assert that in fact there are no enemies...but again, it depends on what level of manifestation one is dealing with and how. Ever read the Tao?

Susan - It's YOUR fault the way I'm screwing myself into the ground here! YOU did it somehow! Now what I want to know is, what are ya gonna do about it?!?!? :-) Whine, snivel, screech!!!

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 01 - 04:11 PM

Well, LH, I dunno why, but only once have I ever gotten my own distresses hooked by yours-- and in this case, NOT... so I guess I would just grin, knock you over gently, and tickle you till you peed your pants.... but not literally.

No, when they do that and I can't keep clear of it, it's THEIR fault for making me get hooked into it! *G*

This sh*t really sucks, doesn't it????

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 03:10 PM

I try to be honest in what I say....but I also try NOT to say everything.

People do not need to hear everything you have inside yourself...and often too much information and 'soul dumping' can be a worse burden than lying.

It is very hard to know where the line is.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 05:13 PM

I used to try to say "everything", but I gave up when I saw their eyes glazing over...

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Deda
Date: 18 Oct 01 - 07:24 PM

Very interesting thread -- but I find "being Honest" without real-life examples as too general and vague, I have trouble "getting" what the question is. Socrates said that the unexamined life is not worth living, but there have been a lot of times when it seemed to me that the OVER examined life was impossible to live--who has time? What with 12-step groups, personal therapy, consciousness-raising groups, etc. etc., examining and examining and re-examining, going over it all with ever-finer combs. At some point it's time to quit and just do the best you can, and apologize when/as necessary, and from time to time make amends, also when/as necessary.

Virtue really is its own reward. Being honest, being diligent, being a person of good will, being kind, being what you say you are -- Allan Sherman notwithstanding, these paths are simpler and make life easier, and can lead to happiness, IMHO. I don't think that any kind of dishonesty ever makes anyone really happy; at least I can't imagine a situation where real dishonesty would make me happy for more than five minutes. (By "real dishonesty"--sounds oxymoronic--I mean lying out of self-interest, not out of concern for the other's happiness or well-being; if someone looks crappy, tired, overworked, but really can't do anything about it, then I don't count it as dishonest to say she looks fine.)

I spent a very long time lying about aspects of my life, in large part because I couldn't stand watching somebody go into a rage, which the "truth" was going to elicit. I hate the emotional violence of anger, and when I've been dishonest it has usually been to avoid it. But it's better to go through the unpleasantness of a temper tantrum than to be held hostage by the threat of same.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Deda
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 11:31 AM

PS> What helps in the effort to get more honest, I think. One is having a good role model, someone you really admire and would like to be like, who's honest. My husband is scrupulously honest, and generally scrupulously ethical, and I think I've become much more moral by being with him. Another, related piece is recognizing the connection between doing and being. I don't want to BE the kind of person who DOES certain things. I don't want to be a thief, so I don't steal. I don't want to be a liar, so I .... I always told my kids that the real punishment for anything they did that was bad, was just having to BE the person who did a bad thing.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: GUEST,Celtic Soul
Date: 19 Oct 01 - 01:30 PM

There are many ways of looking at any situation. The glass is half empty, but it is also half full.

One person can be in a circumstance and be irritated beyond belief. Someone else in the very same circumstance can be placid and happy. Both could describe their perspectives "honestly", but be diametrically opposed to one another.

So, in my book, "honesty" is highly over rated. In my way of thinking, a good attitude and a right heart are much more important. Being honest when one is gentle and kind means that you will deliver your honest truth through that perspective. You have to be in that place before your "honesty" can make a difference that is not harmful.

Or as many Moms have said for millenia, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all".

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 10:45 PM

honesty?

there's some subtle differences betw. outright lying & withholding some truths/imo's.

lucky? for me i've got my mate jim who tells me[usu. the day after] if i've spoke the truth.

most peop. inc. me don't speak their minds completely in the usual way of things/everyday normal life; but when i/we've had a noggin or 2 of aLCOHOL[the truth drug]then i/we begin to speak in tongues!

examples [real life!- as requested by some above posters];

i was at a monthly gathering sar/music session some months ago in buckley, north wales.

it was jim's turn to drive & my turn to drink!

some of the other attenders at this do were a bit stiff & formal[imo]

i remember knocking back a fair few wixeys.

jim told next day- in his words 'the bottle, yer brain, & yer mouth was all too close together- yer were thinking out loud & yer called 'em a lot o' boring bastards!'

well i lol! & said well jim, it was true wasn't it. he agreed.

the following month it was my turn to host the monthly do at my house. bearing in mind what had occured before, i wasn't expecting a big turn out.

well was i surprised, not only everyone i'd told the'truth' to came but a big pile of other folkies as well!

i thought they must have all agreed with me!

****************

another example of 'truth'/ 'speaking in tongues' was at chester ff 02.

a really nice young girlie who used to play fiddle had been away working in another town for nearly a year.

i hadn't seen her for ages.

me & some chums were in her auntie's tent in the early hours after a fine session & were catching up on news.

[on the wixy/truth drug again]

i noticed she'd put on a bit of weight & said something to this effect.

next morning, goood old jim, my pal, said 'd'ye remember last night?- ye called adele fat!!'

during the same morning, while cooking/eating brekkie in the porch of my tent, i caught a glimpse of the lovely adele playing ball with her 5 yr old cousin.

she glanced over & i beckoned. i said 'hi, adele. last night what i really meant was, you're twice the woman you were!'

she ran over to me, flung her arms round me & gave me a big kiss!

truth will out!

any more??

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: michaelr
Date: 26 Jul 02 - 10:51 PM

If I were to be totally honest, I'd stay miles away from the internet!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Art Thieme
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 12:12 AM

"Some people have tact, others tell the truth."
------------Jeffrey Dahmer to John Wayne Gacey in a CIA taped phone conversation.

If I was totally honest, I would've had no gigs at all. Part of my show was always telling tall tales. Augusta Heritage Workshops in W.Virginia hired me in '95 to teach a LIARS CLASS for a week. I hated doing it.

That's a lie.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 12:15 AM

Sorry. I got in a bit late. The title of the thread is a bit of a puzzle to me though. If you are honest, aren't you "totally" honest? It's a bit like being half pregnant. You either or, or you aren't seems to me.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 12:24 AM

"Love without honesty is sentimentality. Honesty without love is cruelty." Great quote, Jerry!

I think it was you also that mentioned self-delusion as a means of defense. But it seems to me that also the more one truly knows oneself, the less defenses are needed. Defenses are needed against seeing one's own faults and failings, weaknesses and blind spots. I always examine my motives when someone makes me very angry...before putting it all on their behavior I try to find the trigger that may be buried there... something of mine I don't want to own.

I agree with all who have said that honesty, like charity, like love itself, begins at home. If I'm being really truthful with myself I will know from where my honesty to others is coming: concern for others or self-agrandizement and/or self-importance.

And in all honesty I'd have to say for me this is a goal, not always an achievement.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 12:28 AM

As regards the "half-honest" question I think t is perfectly possible to be able to accurately detail all kinds of true facts about one's life and actions, and still be deeply hidden from others as a whole person -- there is a kind of emotional dishonesty which runs deeper than the factual details of external action.

So I think there are degrees of honesty to be found.

But there is probably a world of difference between those who essentially strive in the direction of honesty and those who do not.

A

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: GUEST,glen2Glenn
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 12:37 AM

Moderation in all things.
Moderation in honesty, moderation in dishonesty.
If we all knew everything about everyone, life would be like elevator music.
It's the discords that make the concords remarkable.

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 01:00 AM

I think still that there are two important things surfacing throughout these two chapters.

One is that we all seem to consider it highly important to communicate in ways that others can experience easily.

At first glance this may seem like untruth; but on the other hand if you are just slinging out statements of fact without considering the recipient and blow him/her away, you aren't really communicating much truth anyway, because youhave smashed your audience!

The second point is that there is one line which seems to be commonly held as important, as far as truth is concerned, and that is being honest with oneself about what one really sees, thinks, and feels.

Pretty deep stuff, though. Two years later I am still perpplexed by some of these points.

A

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Blackcatter
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 01:06 AM

I'd be honest and say I think it's weird for someone to revive a BS thread started a year and a half ago...

pax yall

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 05:42 PM

Perhaps so, Blackcatter, but totally honest!

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Mudlark
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 06:02 PM

With regard to "half-honesty"...if there were no degrees of honesty there would be no mixed messages. We've all received them, honest on the surface, but totally dishonest about the real message being conveyed, i.e. damning with faint praise...

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 07:14 PM

Wisely put, Mudlark!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: John O'L
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 07:37 PM

Yes there are some bad effects of greyness but there are also good ones.
Humans are social animals and in order for any society to work there needs to be compromise and, as mentioned earlier, moderation.
If we were all brutally honest about everything we would not be able to stand each other.
Good or bad greyness, I suspect, would be decided by intent rather than degree of shading.
One can also protect with "faint praise".
Glenn

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 08:19 PM

Brutal honesty to my mind is an oxymoron; fact telling which is harmful is not the truest communication one can muster because it is predicated already on the great untruth of hostility.

WYSIWYG is fond of the expression "love and truth are never far apart" and I think she may be onto something.

Thing is, I think, there are any vectors in a communication in addition to the straight literal semantics of words chosen, and maybe our greatest art is to make all those vectors harmonize in a truthful way. I would consider that a much higher honesty than a mere ability to recite facts; but sure, the ability to see and say what is is a major step, too. One that some folks have a real problem with.

A

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: John O'L
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 09:35 PM

"Love and truth are never far apart" - Agreed, but my point is that they do not always occupy the same space.
Children are often the most vulnerable to receiving mixed messages, but if we did not lie to them, (yes, lie to them) there would be a lot more youth suicide than there is, I'm sure.
Obviously this causes confusion and resentment later on, but this would probably be the lesser of the two evils.
Glenn

Subject: RE: BS: If You Were Totally Honest, Part II
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jul 02 - 09:56 PM

Interesting paradox. If you take the ability of the receiving person into account, and modify the truth so it is acceptable, are you being less honest than if you bluntly detail the grim facts of some psychotic story which is itself already riddled with huge falsifications? I think not. The example of explaining the world to a child is telling.

The question is where the line is drawn between "positive modulation" of truth and simple self-deception or direct lying, and the rationalization that persuades that one is actually the other sometimes. Another peice of the paradox is that we are often called upon to communicate about things of which we do not know the truth. A little humility goes a long way as was mentioned earlier in the thread.

A