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BS: Is 9/11 overworked?
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Subject: Is 9/11 overworked? From: toadfrog Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:14 PM For a full week on NPR there was nothing whatsoever to be heard but reflections on the World Trade Center disaster. Did television do the same thing? Does it seem that this is too much? Someone mentioned that one year after Peal Harbor, the bombing was commemorated by a moment of silence and the tooting of a whistle, and not much more. One day after the bombing, all the pundits were saying it was a "defining moment" and that the world would never be the same. I personally have not noticed the world changing all that much. It has been my observation that people are changed by their own experiences over a prolonged time. The Depression, World War II, and the Vietnam war really changed people's attitudes. Disasters change the world for people who experience them. Perhaps I am an old curmudgeon. But to me it seems like a great nation so sunk in self-pity and self-congratulation is maybe a bit decadent. The disaster was terrible. All disasters are terrible, especially for those who experience them. But disasters also happen every day. Much worse things have happened in our lifetimes. For example, in Ruanda, and at Bhopal, and in Bosnia. No one has ever said Bhopal is "hallowed ground." Really horrible things are perpetrated every day Israel. Real people are dying in Afghanistan. Maybe that's war. Maybe it is inevitable. But those people are just as human as the ones in the World Trade Center. Have we completely lost our sense of proportion? I'm sure what I've just said will be offensive. But am I wrong? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:26 PM I don't think yer all that far off the mark TF...
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:31 PM Correct. It is offensive to some, and no, you aren't wrong. It was the same on TV, Sunday evening on UK terrestrial TV, there were 3 out of 5 channels showing programmes dedicated to 11/09/01. It's another example of the media picking on one 'story' and doing it to death. The UK media has been guilty of this a lot this year. Take the 2 girls who vanished recently, and were later found dead. In the interval between their disappearance and their discovery, the media did not let up one single day, not one single hour it seemed. Yet how many other children have vanished from their homes never to be seen again? How many others have been abused, beaten and killed this year? We have a case now, of a 2 yr old who was tortured, abused and starved in this area of East London, discovered dying last January. Where was her media cover? Where are the multi thousand pound rewards for the capture of her killers? The killers were there all the time, because they were her parents. I haven't seen any front page screamers about her case, except for the local paper. I sometimes wonder if the fact that she was black and from a fairly deprived area as opposed to being white and from a middle class, middle England village has anything to do with it. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:31 PM One thing that's chamged is that every time I look up and an airliner is flying across the sky it is completely different from the way it used to be. What that must be like for people who were directly involved in this is hard to bear thinking about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:36 PM "One thing that's chamged is that every time I look up and an airliner is flying across the sky it is completely different from the way it used to be." Really? why?
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: skarpi Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:41 PM Halló all , Maybe the UN should have a memorial day for all those people over the world witch had died In wars, disaster´s from mother earth and other´s advence´s??, and why not why have all kinds a days that we remember of , then we have years of that and this . Yes I think people should talk more about the (other people that are haveing a bad things around the them ) and Tv and radio should also talk more abou it. Well the people are having bad things at their home more than less of a small group of bad people who drive their live on war . All the best skarpi Iceland. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Amos Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:44 PM Sunday evening on UK terrestrial TV, Liz -- you get extraterrestrial TV over there??? I'm coming over!! Clinton: It may have escaped your attention that prior to 9-11, most people did not think of jetliners as weapons of mass destruction. Maybe you did, but you are one in a million if so. That's why! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Allan Dennehy Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:45 PM Toadfrog, you wrote your piece in such a reasonable and contemplative way that I don't think you'll offend a lot of people. I think that you brought up a fair point and expressed it well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:47 PM "prior to 9-11, most people did not think of jetliners as weapons of mass destruction" How could ya not? Look at the damage they do when they fall out of the sky by accident... but I'm curious to see what McGrath has to say on the matter... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:55 PM So the destruction at Lockerbie didn't give anyone ideas then.... 24 years ago, half the village was destroyed by that plane exploding in mid flight by terrorist action, it was only a matter of time before someone put it all together. I hope there will be as much hype and media attention this December 21st. There aren't enough days in the year to remember all those whose lives have been destroyed, disrupted or affected by terrorism. We should be remembering ALL of them, millions of them, from all countries of the world, not just the few. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 13 Sep 02 - 02:58 PM Don't we already have a death day? It's called Halloween, no?
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,maryrrf Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:06 PM Yes, yes, yes 9/11 is overworked, overdone, overexposed and overdramatized. Certainly it was terrible but the American media and government has milked it to death. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,mg Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:22 PM We have Watchfires day after Halloween. Which is the day before November 1, All Saints Day, followed by All Souls Day Nov 2. Please celebrate it around the world. This is a very significant day in many cultures..Day of the Dead, All Saints, Samhain...Just light a fire outside, preferably by water at 9 p.m. your time. That's all. You can roast marshmellows on it if you want, sing dance, whatever. If not a bonfire, a candle. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: InOBU Date: 13 Sep 02 - 03:49 PM Yeah, maybe it should be a new york thing. Genie and I had a ramble around, sort of almost retracing our steps on that day. We thought we may do it from now on, to make real the passage of years, someday we may notice just a few old grey heads like us remembering that it is that day, but on the other hand, I would like it to be an international day of thanks to firefighters. Afterall, few days in history did 343 firefighters die in less than an hour... and their sisters and brothers did not even pause for a breath, they dusted themselves off and returned to fight the fire. That is worth remembering, not some act of war or crime or whatever. Cheers Larry PS the day after, I wrote a new song about healing for firefighters, it is posted today under the post, a little help for a NY firefighter... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Leo Condie Date: 13 Sep 02 - 04:01 PM I certainly never remember Hiroshima getting this much media attention... (mind you i was only born 17 years ago so I suppose I shouldn't be too surprised!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Mary in Kentucky Date: 13 Sep 02 - 04:04 PM I can name numerous things that changed immediately. Anyone in any kind of city services or security detail for an event can relate specifics. For obvious reasons I won't discuss them on this forum, but you can PM me for specifics. I agree that the coverage was entirely overdone...but not as depressing as reading Mudcat. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Sep 02 - 04:10 PM We live a few miles from London's Stansted Airport, which means we keep on having planes fly fairly low across the town. You see them glide on past in the distance past buildings in the foreground.
You looked up and you either thought "I wonder where they'be been fortheir holidays" or maybe "I wish they'd be a bit less noisy." Yes and there might be a thought about you get a plane crashing sometimes, and that's always the disaster scenario for any town on tey fklight path of an airport. But that's always been remote and theoretical.
But now I look up and the image of those planes flying into the towers interposes itself. More this week than ever, but it's always there.
There've always been warplanes around, and they look like warplanes, but these aren't supposed to be warplanes, guided missiles, amd now all of them are, potentially.
Rather like the way it's impossible for people in this part of the world to see an abandoned parcel in the tube without having the heart stop a second. The same image has new associations. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 13 Sep 02 - 04:23 PM "now I look up and the image of those planes flying into the towers interposes itself" Always and forever? Do you never get over anything, chum? I'm honestly not trying to be a smartass about this... I'm just trying to understand...
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 13 Sep 02 - 04:38 PM (quote) "For example, in Rwanda, and at Bhopal, and in Bosnia. No one has ever said Bhopal is "hallowed ground." True ,but that was an accidental ( as in (not* premeditated ) disaster like 3 Mile Island or Chernobyl ; how many of us bothrer to remember those brave workers shoveling sand on the smoldering core knowing their exposure would doom them. ( The U.S. Nuke industry marks these days well I can tell ya :The days that killed the commercial nuclear power hogtrough ). What's different here was that this was a *premeditated* act of war against civilians. Some may hate the symbols of World Trade ,but they were still innocent vistims of mass murder in a most spectacular way at the dawn of the 21st century and thus have struck a chilling keynote. Imagine , if you will , how much your perspective might 've shifted if *ground zero* was Parliament or "The City" ( the Lloyd's of London building would've been excrutiatingly surreal, but htere it is ) or just Big Ben or the Bridge on the Thames. Considering all of the coverage of Lady Di's accident, think what your media would've donew with that. Something about it not being in one's own backyard makes it all hit home both literally and metaphorically. (quote) "Really horrible things are perpetrated every day Israel. Real people are dying in Afghanistan." And don't you think the Afghanni's mark well their anniversaries of the day the Russian's invaded ,then driven out ,then the Day of the Taliban and then "liberation". The Afghani's well mark the anniversary of the brutal suicide-bomb murder of their general well enough. Have a care too for the wanton desecration by demolition of those twin Buddhist monuments as the whole world looked on helplessly. It's all according to one's perspective and that , taking the bad with good , is still broadened by media coverage. I am, atlasy reminded of the life-sized blow-up of a panoramic photo of Gen. Eisenhauer witnessing the discovery of the horrors of a liberated death camp with the quote emblasened over it that is something to the effect of " Let this should be photographed for the record and preseved lest some damn fools try to say this never happened ". Time will filter out the dross of commercial media coverage and the poignancies preserved in thoughtful media records will emerge as historical record. For me , I chose to allow the services at St.Paul's as closure then viewing , on C-Span , the entirety of the U.N. Assembly speech of the already almost murdered Afghani president calling to task those that blaspheme with violence the Islam they profess to uphold as well as the breath of fresh air now rid of the Talibanto was inspiring to say the least. Yeah ,were are living in *interesting times* and , for better or worse ,the media is there to capture what will become the public record. Choose your filter well. ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Kim C Date: 13 Sep 02 - 05:31 PM The scope of the media is so much larger now than it was in 1941 - we have immediate international access to anything we want to know. I think that's part of it. I listened to a little bit of radio Wednesday morning. Wednesday night, when everything on TV was 9-11, Mister and I were at the State Fair with our chums, eating ice cream and caramel apples and frozen lemonade. And happy we were able to do so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 13 Sep 02 - 05:39 PM How was the Tilt-A-Whirl, Kim? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:00 PM "I'm honestly not trying to be a smartass about this... "
I'm sure no effort on your part is involved.
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:03 PM (quote) "How was the Tilt-A-Whirl, Kim? Anything like giving the Kilt-a-Twirl ? ;-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:27 PM Taliesn, i'm curious about your choice of vocabulary. If it was an act of war, is it reasonable to say that those people in the towers were "murdered"? Would you say the civilian populations of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and Hamburg were "murdered"? And if it was an act of war, those people incarcerated in Cuba should have been accorded full POW status from the outset. In case there is any doubt, I believe the WTC people were indeed murdered. My problem is with calling it a war. I just can't see why people have a hang-up about seeing the outrage as a criminal act, albeit on a larger scale than we have previously seen. I like Larry's idea about commemorating the firefighters. And I'd say the mayor deserves whatever recognition he may have got. His policies were never my cup of tea, but from the various programmes I've been watching, there's no doubt that he showed exceptional strength of character on the day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Clinton Hammond Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:33 PM So MGoH... I guess yer answer to "Do you never get over anything" is "no" eh... That's sad...
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:44 PM Some acts of war are war crimes, and if September 11 had been an act of war it would have been no less criminal. But I don't think that calling it an act of war is the right thing to call it. And broadening the metaphor out into "a war on terror" is even more of a mistake.
A war which has no end is not a war It is an emergency which is matched by an increase in the power of the state - but with no time limit laid down. The truth is, it's a kind of coup d'etat.
"War on Drugs" "War on Drink" "War on Crime" - "War on Witchcraft" no doubt it would have been at one time. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Manitas_at_home Date: 13 Sep 02 - 06:51 PM "9/11" certainly changed the way I look at aircraft flying overhead. I work in a building next to the former site of the Baltic Exchange, destroyed by an IRA bomb. We hadn't moved into the building at the time but it was being fitted out for us. The explosion shifted the building a few inches and the pressure tore it apart from the inside. I used to dread to think what would have happened if it had been in occupation. We have bomb drills where we all go and sit on the stairs away from flying glass etc. That would be no use against an aircraft crashing into the building. And the Baltic Exchange site? A very nice looking building is being erected there, one of the tallest in Britain. What a nice target it will make. The world hasn't changed but people working in city centres are just a bit more insecure. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:04 PM Experiencing things you haven't experienced before makes you see things differently. That's how it should be. It doesn't mean you go round fearful of the world, or hung up on the events.
For most of the terrible things that happen in the world, we learn about them by proxy, we only experience them vicariously. But September 11 in a real sense wasn't like that - TV meant that we witnessed it as it was happening, as it unfolded that morning.
If experience just washes off and leaves no mark, and no learning is involved, to me that seems a pity. If in fact it ever actually does happen like that, which I am inclined to doubt.
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Burke Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:14 PM Wait a year to complain. A 1st anniversary of an event is a good time to reflect on it. If it happens again next year, I'll probably agree. Also please stop comparing it to Pearl Harbor. A year after Pearl Harbor we were at war & it did get most of the headlines.
BUT Pearl Harbor was commemerated for years after it happened. 20 years ago I was in a holiday choir of employees of the county government. Our concert was the first week of Dec. & there were several patriotic selections and a reading specifically about Pearl Harbor. I was disgusted by the pundits who got on the air Sept. 12, 2001 and said we were all changed. I noted at the time that it was too early to make that statement. Because there were so many saying that a year ago, I was glad to listen to many of the features last week that did try to see how we've really changed. Yeah, not much, but a good corrective to the hype of last year. One really important realization of a year ago was how important it is to keep in touch with our loved ones. My reflection on Sept. 11 is that I've been slipping & getting back to my old ways as well. I'm making an effort to call the family, etc.
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:29 PM (quote) "Taliesn, i'm curious about your choice of vocabulary. If it was an act of war, is it reasonable to say that those people in the towers were "murdered"?" It was an act of war in that it was an *escalation* in a chain of chain of guerilla acts of terrorism. The bombings of embassies, the first attempt at bombing the WTC, and the like. Like the war declared on representative government by the Narco-lords in Colombia's "Narcocracy" ( not my term ). Like the "Shining Path" ultra-marxist's in Peru. Like the contras the reagan administration were exposed to've supported in the Iran-contra Affair. The intent was murder of civilians not engaged in counter-warfare or even defense. When you're the premeditated target you're not just "colateral" causualties. (quote) "Would you say the civilian populations of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and Hamburg were "murdered"? Pre-meditated destruction of civilians is mass murder no matter whom does it, but then you Europeans wrote *the* manuals quite eloquently on that practice ; twice against yourselves in just the 20th century alone. You also wrote the book on how *glorious* this sport of Kings is. Need I remind one of what the name was for another struggle to control Central Eurasia; "The Great Game". How very sporting of you. Apparently strategic mass-murder was the only language you Euro's , and the oh so gracious Empire of Japan , trafficked in and understood at the time so , in order to get the message across that this *practice* had to checked , well ,when in Rome....you know the rest. It's sort of like the quote from our War Between the States by the North's Willaim Techumsa Sherman when remarking about what he caried out total war. Something to the effect of " Since the southerners have chosen the path of war , I will give them such a dose that they will think twice about doing it again". It took 2 world wars before Euro's would begin to unlearn what had been their core culture since the last collapsed Empire opened up the game that lasted well over a millenia to unite Europe under one *martial law* master. Add to the fact of the revent studies about how the Axis civilians were willing participants in the effort for supremacy. Wasn't it Gandhi whom pointed out how India would be free when enough Indians realized that their 100 millions could not be ruled by a 100 thousand Brits. The point being war *itself* is an atrocity in whatever form it takes and damn the semantics. One can only attempt a hold-onbe's-nose tolerance of its practice when it brings the crime to an end. Therefore your attempt to equate the bombing campaigns to end WW II with 9/11 is ideological gymnastics most grotesque.
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,Bloody right! Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:32 PM Is beer foamy? Right. So is propaganda when new wars are being planned. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:39 PM "Therefore your attempt to equate the bombing campaigns to end WW II with 9/11 is ideological gymnastics most grotesque."
But who said anything like that anyway? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Lanfranc Date: 13 Sep 02 - 07:50 PM I have twice been close to terrorist explosions in London, Bishopsgate and the Baltic Exchange. In the latter, a young girl was killed, sitting in a car, waiting for her father. Who now remembers her? The perpetrators, if they were ever caught, and I don't remember that they were, would by now have been released as part of the Northern Ireland "Peace Process". One death as opposed to three thousand. Will Bush and his hawks release any of the "terrorists" in Guantanamo Bay that they finally get around to convicting, or will Texas bloodlust consign them to a lethal injection or the electric chair? 11th September, 2001 (there, I've written it correctly for once!) emphasised the vulnerability of city dwellers the world over, as Manitas points out above. My daughter works in Canary Wharf, and my office will be in the shadow of a new tower planned near London Bridge. Tempting targets both. No, ClintonHammond, there are some things that will never be the same again, and the sight or sound of a low-flying aircraft will inspire paranoid feelings if not for ever, certainly for a good long time. 911 is a call for help in the US. 9/11 should have been a call for action. Action to remedy at least some of the grievances that inspire terrorism. Action to cease the construction of ego-flattering buildings with the potential for fires that no firefighting force yet created could hope to extinguish and from which escape for thousands could prove impossible. What do we get? Sabre-rattling at the "Axis of Evil". After Iraq, will Bush and Blair next invade North Korea? Or Libya? Or Cuba? Or Iran? How about Zimbabwe? Oh, and then there is Sudan.... "'Til every city the whole world round becomes just another American town. How peaceful it will be, we'll set everybody free... They all hate us anyhow, so let's drop the big one now!" "Political Science" - Randy Newman O tempora, o mores! Oh, and yes, I do think that the anniversary coverage was overdone, with the possible exception of the superb documentary about the NY firemen shot by the two French brothers. "The Bravest" indeed. Alan |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,petr Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:08 PM we live in the television age, real time cnn live coverage was 911 a world changing event? in the sense that it was a shock to the America, in that our little corner of the world was not 'safe' anymore. Welcome to the world, and its a dangerous place. (and somehow it limited the number of 'safe' places one could travel) eg. Ive always wanted to travel in North Africa, Turkey, India and now I would think twice) It was a shock because of the magnitude of the terrorist attack and the symbolism of the targets. (although we really should have been shocked in the first attempt to bomb the WTC in 93). And prior to that the most destructive terrorist attack was the Air India bombing (flight out of Vancouver, that exploded over the Atlantic (near Ireland) killing over 300 people (and two baggage handlers in Tokyo, from another bomb that was supposed to blow up a second Air India flight). The Sikh separatists that were responsible still havent been brought to justice, one is serving time for the Narita bombing, and another is being brought to trial only now (after 15years). If you didnt know that, and thought that Lockerbie was the worst terrorist incident up to that time, it just proves the point that if no Americans die, its not as newsworthy an event. (not to belittle the tragedy of Lockerbie, but to demonstrate how the US news media work. (hell prior to 911 the front page of the news dealt with whose the SURVIVOR, or Monica and Bill, OJ) The idea of crashing a hijacked airliner was not new either, Algerian terrorists planned to crash a hijacked airliner one in 94 into the Eiffel tower in Paris. Not to belittle the tragedy of 911, but in comparison in 1914 one man was killed and 10 million or more died in ww1. The bombing of Hiroshima killed over a 100,000 and a further 100,000 died of the effects of radiation (similar for Nagasaki) This was if anything, probably the most significant world changing event of the last century, since it changed the rules and implications of warfare forever. But TV was not around to show the people dying, or running from the cloud. one comment you could hear a lot around 911 was that it was 'like a movie' (it almost lasted the typical time it a movie does) except Bruce Willis never showed up. petr |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: mack/misophist Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:22 PM The people who plan and promote these things can never be trusted. They always have their own agendas and they are not the same as ours. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: greg stephens Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:28 PM Certain events shock people deeply. That's how we are. And afterwards there are always other people cleverly pointing out that we should have been more deeply shocked by something else. That's how they are. When my dad died,it meant more to me than when your dad died. Sorry, that's how it is. It's not morality, it's emotion. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Sep 02 - 08:45 PM How close we feel to the victims is one thing. What we actually see, and the context in which we see it is another.
I hope that if Baghdad is bombed there will be TV cameras recording what happened. And I hope that the TV stations show us the record without any delay. I think we are entitled to that, and that we have a duty to watch it, regardless of how we feel about the rights and wrongs of it all.
I'm sure there will be brave camera crews recording events - as that film 9/11 reminded us, with those two young French brothers who filmed it as it happened, the firefighters and rescue workers are not the only heroes in a situation like that.
But I'm a lot less confident about the TV stations. showing us the footage.
Another plane disaster to remember - the Iranian Airbus shot down by the USS Vincennes on July 3rd 1988. 290 innocent people died. But of course that doesn't count as terrorism. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,petr Date: 13 Sep 02 - 10:13 PM or the Korean flight shot down by the Russians. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 13 Sep 02 - 10:24 PM (quoting a quote quoting me) ""Therefore your attempt to equate the bombing campaigns to end WW II with 9/11 is ideological gymnastics most grotesque." But who said anything like that anyway? Fion's direct address to me: (quote) "Taliesn, i'm curious about your choice of vocabulary. If it was an act of war, is it reasonable to say that those people in the towers were "murdered"? Would you say the civilian populations of Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden and Hamburg were "murdered"? I drew the "ideologically correct" Leftist inference based upon Fion's "politically correct" belaboring of the "Chilean 9/11" anniversary as if to shame anyone and how dare you be ignorant of it. Ummm, this being the 21st cenbtury and all kind of casts this singular 9/11 event in rather high relief. That's just a fact of the way spectaclar historic events work on the collective psyche. The way the Japanese have managed to transmute Hiroshima & Nagasaki remembrances as profound ceremoies for World Peace as if to silently stress why this should *never* be allowed to happen again. As for stressing the awareness of the crimes of Kissinger , I cited that they were already aptly laid out by Chris Hitchens recent booklet . i did take this as supposed to be meant to somehow absolve Al-Queida by means of some selective moral equivalence quota. Nothing a *politically correct* dirty nuke sent up the Thames, by you know whom, that wouldn't give a reality check to. Then again perhaps it would also require several Greenpeace crafts vaporized as Al-Queida's collateral damage before this game of playing moral equivalents is rendered moot. I pray it never comes to that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 14 Sep 02 - 01:25 AM I work in a tower block in the centre of London, that is actually used as a visual marker by aircraft, both commercial and military. Anything that has to bank around London uses my office as a pivot as it's the tallest building for some distance, in the centre of London (Metropolis as opposed to City) so is highly visible. Planes flying out from Heathrow go round one side of it, north of the river, turning down past the City, over East London to go south, west and east. Planes coming into London, use the river as a marker, turning west and northwards as they pass my office to go to Heathrow. Anything military coming out of Northolt to go east, uses my office as a marker. We don't have bomb drills, because we don't have an interior staircase. Our bomb drill is to go stand by your desk with your coat on, ready to evacuate if necessary. That will really help! The building I work in is well known for being a government office. The actions of 11/09/2001 (and Lanfranc, I'd already written it properly in a previous posting) have made a lot of people in my building very nervous but even more have been made cynical by the media coverage of that tragedy. I have tried very hard not to think 'it won't happen to me' because if I started to think that, I might never get out of my bed ever. Mind you, more people die in bed, so maybe I'll just stay on the sofa but never leave my house, ever. We take a risk by just opening the curtains. Who knows what is waiting outside the window, or whether the curtain pole will fall on your head, or will you trip on the rug before you even get to the window..... see what I mean? I have enough trouble living my day to day life without having my fears and emotions highlighted, manipulated and whipped into a frenzy by the media. And yes, they did the same over the Princess of Wales. And I blanked that too. LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Sep 02 - 08:05 AM It seems to me,Taliessn, that you have read implications into what Fionn said there which weren't actually there. As take it the point being made wasn't to equate the various cases mentined, it was to say that in calling September 11 and an act of war, you have ruled out calling it an act of murder, and that September 11 was an act of murder rather than an act of war. (And incidentally, it's a point I disagree with, since in my views acts of war are often acts of murder, in the full criminal sense.)
A lot of people do that kind of thing, tearing into people for things they have not actually said or even implied. If I've ever done it, I apologise. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: RichM Date: 14 Sep 02 - 08:26 AM Since I don't watch television--except for the occasional specific special, I don't feel inundated. And yes I too feel different about aircraft now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 15 Sep 02 - 09:14 AM (quote) "It seems to me,Taliessn, that you have read implications into what Fionn said there which weren't actually there.(And incidentally, it's a point I disagree with, since in my views acts of war are often acts of murder, in the full criminal sense.)" We understand and agree with each other perfectly on the later point of *all* acts of War are ,de facto ,acts of murder ( pre-meditated killing ) since all warfare is driven by *strategy & tactics*. Since we are in agreement on this point I would further explain that what galls me is the continuation of this tradaitional attempt to continue the *clasifications* on *organized killing* , both covert & overt , and use the traditional semantic legalize for *parsing* just what is an act of war and what is not. To my mind, this is a hangover of the *Old World* with millenia of evolving the culture of accommodation that serves as the handmaiden to the older *cultture of warfare* in all its forms . I guess I'm being a staunch advocate of trying to seize the oppurtunity of this being the 21st century to act as a new time where the *world cultures* finally dispense with all of the legacy of the idelogical parsing of degrees of *organized killing* and call it for what *is*. I guess I'm waht some might call more of a New Testamentalist which , supposedly , was the last time there was a millenial oppurtunity to distance humankind from the Old Testament culture of justification for what *still* amounts to tribal anniahilation along the path to empire. This does *not* mean that I can *not * recognize self-defense or coming to the defense of another under attack , but continuing to reinforce the concept of all *organized ( thus premditated) killing* is still *murder* , regardless of the cause , and ,thus, reinforce it's adhorance by calling it what it *is*. Call it calling a spade in a spade *in spades*. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Sep 02 - 09:27 AM What's with all those asterisks? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 15 Sep 02 - 10:16 AM (quote) "What's with all those asterisks? " I've seen them used for *emphasis* on words and told they are more appropriate than "quotation marks" I'm often frustrated by the way typewritten words are extremely limited in expressing the music of the spoken word. I've often wondered aloud on the web why messageboards don't atleast allow different colorations of the text to try and convey inflections of voice in expanded meaning. This would give new meaning to the term of "colorful speech". No one has yet composed a universal system of the musical notation of voiced speech . I'm afraid the use of variations of punctuation hieroglyphs , such as ;-) , don't quite go far enough. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Sep 02 - 11:24 AM I prefer to stick with the system for communicating in print we've developed over the centuries. I can't see why the fact it's going up on a screen when we type it instead of on a piece of paper makes any difference at all, apart from making it inadvisable to use underlining as a way of emphasising words, since that looks confusingly like a hyperlink. So I stick with italics, and "quotation marks", with the occasional ! or ... or ?
Asterisks as an emphasising technique is a new one on me, though it seems to be more prevalent than I'd thought, now I've noticed it. I can't see where it has any advantage over quotes. I suppose it's marginally quicker than italics. It has the same effect on me that WRITING IN CAPITALS has on a lot of people. Or writing in green ink in a letter to the paper. The medium drowns out the message. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: dick greenhaus Date: 15 Sep 02 - 12:26 PM Overworked or not, it's doing a fine job of keeping attention away from a severely damaged economy, some flagrant governmental attacks on the environment and a frightening erosion of civil liberties in the US. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: musicmick Date: 15 Sep 02 - 10:25 PM Oh Dick, what you have wrought. You sweet thoughts of a worldwide folk music community is, so often, a haven for the kneejerk perversion of classic leftist values. Did you imagine that your digitrad dream would devolve into a coven of closeted continental America haters who are having the time of their pathetic lives covertly chortling over the chaos and fear that was visited upon us. I just love to listen to these weasely wannabes blame us for the actions of a murderous cult who care less about Palestinian rights than George W. Bush does about health care. Just to address the subject enough to refute what all those British Yank bashers offered, Americans are, for the first time, experiencing a feeling of vulnirability and peril. If we harp on the 9/11 attack, it is because we are scared and angry and, we have every right to be so. I do sympathize with all victims, but this is different and the sooner we all realize that, the safer we will be. We are dealing with a very different enemy than we have ever known. This is not a nation or a rational movement. This enemy is fanatical and fearless. They would as soon kill you as they would me and, what is most frightening, as they would themselves. Do you think that they would hesitate to destroy the earth in a spate of religeous fervor? Great nations are exploitive by nature. The USA and The USSR possesed sufficiant weapons to end civilization but they did not. The UK, France, China and Israel have terrible weapons also and none of them have shown themselves to be a true threat to the continued survival of the world. On the other hand, I wouldn't trust these Jihad characters with a book of matches. Would you? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Sep 02 - 02:02 PM So far as I've seen, the people who have been complaining about the commemorations of September 11 being overdone have been mostly Americans who don't like the way the media circus have exploited it, as they see it.
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: musicmick Date: 16 Sep 02 - 05:16 PM Mr. McGrath, you may, well, be right. Europe does not have a monopoly on America bashers. I know any number of Americans who have nothing good to say about the US but continue to live here because they are unwilling to endure the loss of freedom and lifestyle that emigration would cost. I have lived in some wonderful parts of the world and I have no illusions that the US is the only good place to live. But, if there is one thing I have found in my travels, it is that every land, every society has flaws and warts. If there is a heaven on earth, it is doing a damned fine job of hiding. Until I stumble across it, I will stay and support the land of my birth and the land of my choosing. I am an American and, warts and all, I am proud to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: musicmick Date: 16 Sep 02 - 05:20 PM Mr. McGrath, you may, well, be right. Europe does not have a monopoly on America bashers. I know any number of Americans who have nothing good to say about the US but continue to live here because they are unwilling to endure the loss of freedom and lifestyle that emigration would cost. I have lived in some wonderful parts of the world and I have no illusions that the US is the only good place to live. But, if there is one thing I have found in my travels, it is that every land, every society has flaws and warts. If there is a heaven on earth, it is doing a damned fine job of hiding. Until I stumble across it, I will stay and support the land of my birth and the land of my choosing. I am an American and, warts and all, I am proud to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: toadfrog Date: 16 Sep 02 - 06:31 PM Gee, musicmic, in what way are we "America bashers"? You are not expressing yourself very clearly. I have some ideas about what is essentially American. The recent media orgy does not seem to reflect any basic American values. You sound as if you are afraid someone will blow you up. Statistically, that's not very likely. That particular band of crazies does not have really formidable weaponry. Not nearly so scary as when the Soviet Union was pointing all those hydrogen bombs at us. Nothing like the Cuban Missile crisis. Nothing like the threats Europe lived with in the Cold War, when they were the situs of hundreds of tactical nukes. Aside from that, it's hard to tell what you are saying. Am I unpatriotic because I'm not scared shitless? Is that what you are trying to say? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Sep 02 - 06:47 PM Over in England we had a lot of TV programmes about September, most of them not bad.
But there were enough of them that weren't good, that came across as cheap and manipulative, to give me a feeling of why some people might feel fed up with TV coverage and so forth if that was what was filling your screens in the USA.
As you say, like any place, musimmic, America has its faults and warts. But surely just because people love their country does that mean they don't want to mend those faults and mustn't criticise the warts? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST Date: 17 Sep 02 - 06:52 PM "It's really not a number I'm terribly interested in." General Colin Powell, when asked about the number of Iraqi people who were killed by Americans in the 1991 Desert Storm campaign (200,000 people, incidentally) September 11th is an anniversary. And if you've watched too much telly or read too many newspapers this week, you may have been fooled into believing that September 11th is only the anniversary of one tragedy, in one nation. But it's not. On the same day in 1973, Salvador Allende, the socialist President of Chile, was killed in a violent, American- sponsored coup, led by General Augusto Pinochet. Pinochet's rise to power, dreamt-up and orchestrated by a Red-paranoid CIA and Mr. Henry Kissinger, began nearly twenty years of military dictatorship that led to thousands of deaths and countless incidences of oppression and torture. 30,000 people were massacred in the weeks following this other September 11th, as Pinochet tried to wipe out an entire layer of society who had identified with the left. Even in exile, many who had associated with the Allende government (or were vaguely perceived as some sort of communist threat) were assassinated by Pinochet's secret service. And all of this sponsored in the name of Freedom and Democracy. So when we're having a minute of silence for the people who died in the Twin Towers, why not a minute of silence for those who died at the hands of Pinochet's CIA-sponsored death squads? Or while we're at it, we could have a minute of silence for the people of the Congo, also subjected to a military dictatorship thanks to the CIA assassination of evil lefty Patrice Lumumba. Or how about Cambodia, which deserves at least two minutes of silence when one considers that America (and Britain) backed Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot to the tune of $85 million in his genocidal rampage which killed nearly 2 million Cambodians. Or what about a few minutes of silence for Nicaragua, where in 1936, the American National Guard helped Anastasio Somoza to establish and maintain a family dynasty which would rule over Nicaragua for the next 43 years. While the National Guardsmen, consistently maintained by the US, passed their time with rape, torture, murder of the opposition, and massacres of peasants, as well as less violent pursuits such as robbery, extortion, contraband, running brothels and other government functions, the Somoza clan laid claim to the lion's share of Nicaragua's land and businesses. Love that Freedom & Democracy, don't ya? The problem with this list is that it could go on and on — Brazil, Guatemala, El Salvador, Ecuador, Uruguay, the Dominican Republic, Cuba, Haiti, Iraq, Iran, Laos, East Timor, Grenada, Greece... All of these and more are countries who have suffered from oppression, torture, starvation, and death at the hands of American "intervention," whether it takes the form of bombs, sanctions, or our personal favourite, CIA sponsored military regimes. As ex-State Department employee and author William Blum writes, "An American holocaust has taken place…So great and deep is the denial of the American holocaust that the deniers are not even aware that the claimers or their claims exist. Yet, a few million people have died in the American holocaust and many more millions have been condemned to lives of misery and torture as a result of US interventions extending from China and Greece in the 1940s to Afghanistan and Iraq in the 1990s." "I will never apologise for the United States of America - I don't care what the facts are," said President George Bush Sr. in 1988, when the U.S. Navy warship Vincennes shot down an Iranian commercial airliner. The plane was on a routine flight in a commercial corridor in Iranian airspace. All 290 civilians on board the aircraft were killed. And while we're on the subject of bombs, it might be interesting to note that since the Second World War, the US government has bombed 21 countries: China in 1945-46 and again in 1950-53, Korea in 1950-53, Guatemala in 1954, 1960, and 1967-69, Indonesia in 1958, Vietnam in 1961-73, Congo in 1964, Laos in 1964-73, Peru in 1965, Cambodia in 1969-70, El Salvador throughout the 1980s, Nicaragua throughout the 1980s, Lebanon in 1983-84, Grenada in 1983, Bosnia in 1985, Libya in 1986, Panama in 1989, Iraq in 1991- 20??, Sudan in 1998, Former Yugoslavia in 1999, and Afghanistan in 1998 and 2002. To the best of our knowledge, none of the victims of bombings in these countries have ever received any apologies, memorial funds, or commemorative minutes of silence. Yes, it is a tragedy when 3,000 people lose their lives on a single day as the result of madmen. But it is also a tragedy that takes place in many countries around the world on a daily basis, often as a result of the madmen in Washington. And when this fact is not acknowledged, anniversary observances of September 11th sound hollow at best, and grossly hypocritical and offensive at worst. If we had to observe a moment of silence for all of the victims of American foreign policy, we'd be silent for the rest of our lives. So while George Bush Jr. demands that the world observe a minute of silence for the dead and injured civilians of September 11th, the 290 dead Iranian civilians of 1988 didn't even get an apology. Neither did the nearly 8,000 Afghani civilians who have died in the last year as a result of U.S. led air strikes in Afghanistan, a campaign appropriately titled "Enduring Freedom." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 17 Sep 02 - 08:16 PM (quote) "Yes, it is a tragedy when 3,000 people lose their lives on a single day as the result of madmen. " Oh how very civilized and gracious of you to state this faux disclaimer before relaunching into your hopelessly "one-sided" screed which has already been expressed elsewhere by better authors. (quote) .".But it is also a tragedy that takes place in many countries around the world on a daily basis, often as a result of the madmen in Washington.And when this fact is not acknowledged, " You're false argument of these facts not being acknpowledged renders your belabored position as merely the excuse that you've seized upon I s'pose out of some *ideologically correct* sense that it's not been acknowledged enough to *your* satisfaction. How bloated of you. (quote) "...anniversary observances of September 11th sound hollow at best, and grossly hypocritical and offensive at worst." There , feel better now? How convinient you haven't a care to make mention the Tibetians or the surviving Tiananmen Square witnesses simply because the so-called "madmen in Washington" aren't to blame. Back in your ideological box. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,petr Date: 17 Sep 02 - 09:37 PM sure the world after 9/11 may appear to be a scary place but its peanuts compared to what our parents & grandparents went through. How many people on this forum have ever been in a war? you can make your moralistic judgments on whether war is murder but it comes down to this: if your country is invaded and you defend yourself, are you murdering your invaders? the Danes or Poles for instance didnt have much choice in wwii as the Nazis overran them. When I was a kid my I watched Russian tanks surround my home town, after 750,000 Russian and warsaw pact troops invaded my country. the fact is no matter how peace loving you may be, in a war you either die for your country or preferably make someone poor bastard die for his. (and Taliesin or Merlin or whatever ) War is not exclusive to Europe.
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: musicmick Date: 18 Sep 02 - 02:04 AM You bet there is every reason to be scared of theses nuts. This gang is fanatic and willing to kill the world and themselves to make their point. If they are not stopped, no one is safe. They kill for no tactical reason, they kill for their god. I have always known that these fugitives from an old Gunga Din movie are the only, real threat to the world, not the US, not the Soviets, not the uncomfortably expanding membership in the nuclear weapons club. Their agenda is not even self interest or exploitation. It is religeous fervor. On a related topic, Americans focus on 9/11 because we identify with the victims. We understand that those 3000 died because they were Americans (or they were assumed to be Americans). We are Americans. We are the target. We will continue to be endangered until we excise these malignent cells from the body of humanity. I might add (with a sad nod toward irony) that the US bashers and the Israel bashers are as imperiled as the rest of us. It should be obvious that these zealots are equal opportunity murderers. They dont really care if you hate Jews or Americans. They'll get you just the same. Scared? You bet I'm scared. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: GUEST,Taliesn Date: 18 Sep 02 - 07:33 AM (quote) "you can make your moralistic judgments on whether war is murder but it comes down to this: if your country is invaded and you defend yourself, are you murdering your invaders?" Well, then, just what does "kill or be killed " mean? You've also not bothered to recall my equally clear point : (quote) "This does *not* mean that I can *not * recognize self-defense or coming to the defense of another under attack , but continuing to reinforce the concept of all *organized ( thus premditated) killing* is still *murder* ........" Perhaps you'd feel more at ease with the more legalistically correct "manslaughter." The *context* that you apparently need reminding of was another member here decided to take issue with my referring to the Twin Towers atrocity as *mass murder* and tried to make the misplaced *moral equivalency* case for the bombings of Dresden,Hiroshima, & Nagasaki because civilian targets were involved. I made the historic contextual case of the civilian population was a part of an already *declared* War effort and , while still an act of "organized killing" ( thus "premeditated") it was also employed to put an end to the cycle of War initiated and prosecuted by the Axsis powers. It worked. Case closed. It seems that basic historic fact was *inconvinient* to the person whom tried and failed to make that "moral equivalency" case. Perhaps some would've prefered I use the other legalistic term of *executed*. In my mind the tactical intent and result are the same. I suppose the debate really only arrises over the *cause*, the reason for justifying civilian *execution* The case for engaging in killing for self-defense or the defense of another has been made so I fail to understand why you're taking such a stance as if I had not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Sep 02 - 01:27 PM "another member here decided to take issue with my referring to the Twin Towers atrocity as *mass murder* and tried to make the misplaced *moral equivalency* case for the bombings of Dresden,Hiroshima
You sure about that, Teribus? As I recall it the post you refer to was making the point that September 11 wasn't an act of war, it was an act of murder; and that since acts of mass killing in war, such as Hiroshima and Dresden, aren't counted as murder, but as acts of war, calling September 11 an act of war serves in a way to give it a respect it doesn't deserve.
That's not a point I agree with (acts of war in my view can often be criminal, and I look forward to an effective International War Crimes Court, so that maybe that won't just be applied against the people who lose the wars) - but if my recollection is correct, thebwriter wasn't objectomh to September 11 being desrcibed as "mass murder", but to it being dignified with the term "an act of war". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is 9/11 overworked? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Sep 02 - 01:28 PM "another member here decided to take issue with my referring to the Twin Towers atrocity as *mass murder* and tried to make the misplaced *moral equivalency* case for the bombings of Dresden,Hiroshima
You sure about that, Teribus? As I recall it the post you refer to was making the point that September 11 wasn't an act of war, it was an act of murder; and that since acts of mass killing in war, such as Hiroshima and Dresden, aren't counted as murder, but as acts of war, calling September 11 an act of war serves in a way to give it a respect it doesn't deserve.
That's not a point I agree with (acts of war in my view can often be criminal, and I look forward to an effective International War Crimes Court, so that maybe that won't just be applied against the people who lose the wars) - but, if my recollection is correct, the writer wasn't objecting to September 11 being described as "mass murder", but to its being dignified with the term "an act of war". |