BS: Is the Rapture Underway???

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:09 AM

An aside. The rapture was mentioned on the radio yesterday afternoon.

The person being interviewed, a member of the general synod, says the rapture isn't mentioned at all in the bible. S day of reckoning is in there towards the end of the book but the rapture as described doesn't feature and that it was a Victorian story.

Anybody know about this? It might serve to end the thread and put this silly nonsense to bed. You see, when you take the piss out of nonsense, some people get all protective over it, which just serves to increase their absurdity. ..

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: open mike
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 04:12 AM

I have seen bumper stickers that say
"In case of rapture this car will be unoccupied"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 10:11 AM

My q above re the Flintstones isn't frivolous.

I asked because they've a pet dinosaur; 'Dino'

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 11:37 AM

Pete------"...the former are measurable in the present,but dating relates to the past,and as i understand it involves assumptions which are not verifiable."

They ARE verifiable. read the details (yes, I know it's beyond either of us to understand ALL the math and chemistry, but basic facts can be found. You may read as much as your brain will tolerate...but don't get hung up on all the math...just note that they are constantly refining both measurement techniques and analysis parameters! They have no interest in making their data fit pre-established goals. They want correct answers.

Here is the basic quote:(I have highlighted the main point) ". When an organism dies, it contains a ratio of 14C to 12C, but, as the 14C decays with no possibility of replenishment, the ratio decreases at a regular rate. This rate is known as the half-life of 14C. The measurement of 14C decay provides an indication of the age of any carbon-based material (a raw radiocarbon age).[4] However, over time there are small fluctuations in the ratio of 14C to 12C in the atmosphere, fluctuations that have been noted in natural records of the past, such as sequences of tree rings and cave deposits. **These records allow for the fine-tuning, or calibration, of the indications derived from measuring the carbon ratio.** A raw radiocarbon age, once calibrated, yields a calendar date."
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Next relevant quote:"The above calculations make several assumptions: for example, that the level of 14C in the biosphere has remained constant over time.[15] In fact the amount of 14C in the biosphere has varied significantly, and as a result the values provided by the equation above have to be corrected by using data from other sources, using a calibration curve, which is described in more detail below."
---------------------------------------------------------------
It goes on to explain the various ways that calibration is cross-checked to avoid serious errors. The experts do know that 14C variation must be accounted for... and they take special pains to deal with it!
The point is- No one claims this is accurate to exact days & weeks, but given known laws of physics and chemistry, combined with VERY accurate calibration against absolute known ages...such as in tree rings... it IS possible to reduce the possible errors to a very small range.


--------------------------------------------------\\

Later in the article:"The 2004 version of the calibration curve extends back quite accurately to 26,000 years BP. Any errors in the calibration curve do not contribute more than ±16 years to the measurement error during the historic and late prehistoric periods (0–6,000 yrs BP) and no more than ±163 years over the entire 26,000 years of the curve, although its shape can reduce the accuracy as mentioned above.[47]

In late 2009, the journal Radiocarbon announced agreement on the INTCAL09 standard, which extends a more accurate calibration curve to 50,000 years.[48][49] The results of research on varves in Lake Suigetsu, Japan, which was announced in 2012, realised this aim. "In most cases, the radiocarbon levels deduced from marine and other records have not been too far wrong. However, having a truly terrestrial record gives us better resolution and confidence in radiocarbon dating," said Bronk Ramsey. "It also allows us to look at the differences between the atmosphere and oceans and study the implications for our understanding of the marine environment as part of the global carbon cycle."[50]

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:08 PM

The Flinstones were characters on a wretchedly stupid and crass cartoon show that basically promoted the most vapid sort of California/Beverley Hills suburban 1960s affluent lifestyle (mindless consumerism and mind-numbing idiocy) with a thin veneer of "caveman" stuff pasted over it for laughs...and to provide a theme.

If you wanted to find out what a dark sickness lay at the heart of the American Dream, one way of doing so was to study the most basic assumptions that underlay shows like "The Flintstones"...shows written and produced by shallow minds FOR shallow minds in one of the shallowest moral tarpits in the entire world: Hollywood.

It was funny at times...if you could stand digesting the overall moronic outlook of the show and what (little) it was saying about life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:27 PM

"as i am sure you know really,what is called dispensationalism is not a rescue package imposed on scripture to avoid apparent clashes between the testaments,but rather built on the teaching of scripture."

No, Pete, that is not something I "know really"; if it were, I wouldn't have explained what I do believe in that regard. I know, and have known, numerous fundamentalists who, like you, believe in a young earth because they realized that that is the conclusion to be drawn from a strictly literal reading of the Bible. But the tendency has been that the more one of those individuals has studied the Bible for himself, rather than depend on what has been interpreted for him, the more likely that person (remember, I'm speaking here of strictly fundamentalist, young earth people) has been to reject dispensationalist interpretation as non-Biblical.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:33 PM

Dino was included in the show simply because people like animal mascots. He served a similar purpose to Snoopy in the comic Peanuts, but he didn't go nearly so far, because Peanuts was a far more perceptive comic (at least in its early days) and had a lot to say about life.

The Flintstones had nothing to say about life beyond...

"suburban men are morons, sad little boys who never grew up, they like to party and belong to weird social clubs, they are loudmouths looking for a good time, they like expensive toys, they are tyrranized by their horrible bosses, and they're secretly scared of their very demanding wives, who are greedy, shallow, brassy women who like going on shopping binges at the mall"

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:43 PM

Little Hawk, does satire simply go over your head?

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM

thanks bill for distilling the more understandable bits of the wiki entry.i note that significant variation of carbon 14 is acknowledged but that recalibration is effected by recourse to other attempted methods,as tree rings and varves.this of course depends on the interpretation of that data.i was not able to locate any info in that article that disclosed that method.
the assumption is that there is little,if any ,variation in those methods over the millenia,and that the estimate of the rate of varve deposits,tree rings annually,etc are relably accurate.
as you might suspect- CMI scientists have tackled this before and published their findings on their site.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:44 PM

thanks bill for distilling the more understandable bits of the wiki entry.i note that significant variation of carbon 14 is acknowledged but that recalibration is effected by recourse to other attempted methods,as tree rings and varves.this of course depends on the interpretation of that data.i was not able to locate any info in that article that disclosed that method.
the assumption is that there is little,if any ,variation in those methods over the millenia,and that the estimate of the rate of varve deposits,tree rings annually,etc are relably accurate.
as you might suspect- CMI scientists have tackled this before and published their findings on their site.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 02:53 PM

I love satire, Don. I loved the Satire in the Rocky and Bullwinkle Show, for example. Or in the comics Pogo, Bloom County, and Calvin & Hobbes. There was some clever and subversive satire in the Donald Duck Comics, the golden age of Mickey Mouse comics and cartoons, and some of the Popeye stuff.

Yes, there was satire in the Flintstones too...clumsy satire, but I think the show sucked bigtime. It was satire on a really stupid level. I could say the same of all the Hanna-Barbera cartoons. They were weak, not very funny, obnoxious, pretty much lacking in any kind of satire that held any interest for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket getting nostalgic
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 03:23 PM

Oy!

I always said that Betty was a foxy chick and was wasted on Rubble without a Clue. ..

I loved the bit in the film where Fred said something along the lines of "well if I'm not good enough for you, there are two thousand other people on this planet. "

On a serious note, looking at the pastiche of California living, for us this side of the pond with post war austerity still influencing lifestyle, Flintstones were aspirational!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:11 PM

I can see how they might have been, Musket, in a material sense...certainly not in a philosophical sense. ;-) Yeah, Betty was kind of foxy, wasn't she?

I think Hanna-Barbera probably more or less patterned the Fred Flintstone character on Ralph Kramden of the Honeymooners. In the Honeymooners, however, you had great ensemble acting by Jackie Gleason and the rest of the very talented cast, and therein lies the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 05:37 PM

frogprince- what i meant was that you are probably aware that there is a shift from OT to NT,as i described.i was under no illusions that you accepted it as one dispensation to another.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:00 PM

I didn't really watch them all that much. Or the "Jetsons." I'll usually give a cartoon show a look, but unless it has some outstanding features to it, they usually don't grab me. "SpongeBob Squarepants" is pretty funny.

"The Simpsons?" Nah.

I guess I'm sort of a TV snob. "Nova." "Nature." "Masterpiece Theatre." "Downton Abbey." "Lark Rise to Candleford." Mysteries like "Inspector Morse," "New Tricks." Comedies like "As Time Goes By," "Good Neighbors."

A little susbstance there, not just designed to sell soap.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 13 - 06:12 PM

The Jetsons was considerably weaker a premise for a show than The Flintstones, so you didn't miss much not watching it. The stuff you do mention watching regularly sounds pretty good to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 10:30 AM

Yeah, well the people in Dubai don't like Flintstones repeats but the people in Abu Dhabi DOOOO!

OK, pete, old chum, you've duped Bill into another patient explanation of radiocarbon dating, which, of course, you'll pretend to take on board but which you won't. He'll be back with that one, folks, don't you worry. What next? Another pot at irreducible complexity? For the still-unamused, here's a typical pete-ism, gleaned from his last post, for you to savour:

i was not able to locate any info in that article that disclosed that method...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 10:52 AM

Don't worry about it. Bill enjoys explaining things. It helps him clarify his own thinking. (at least I presume it does) That's why I enjoy explaining things too.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 11:31 AM

i watched the "atheist experience" interview with guest ray comfort.
i must admit to not being over impressed with ray comforts performance.on the other hand the best evidence the atheists cited for evolution was a breed of flys exactly like the forbears except for being unable to interbreed with each other.so if you should develop a condition that renders you infertile, careful you dont get labeled as a new species!
not sure if you thought that was the video i was referring to,bill ,but it was quite interesting,albeit disapointing,considering comforts prominence on the media.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 11:45 AM

The atheist experience is not as pete said above.

The atheist experience is spending Sundays washing the car, nipping down the pub, eating without mumbling an incantation first. It is doing the pots, debugging the computer, debugging the dog, watching Top Gear on the telly. Its scratching your groin, breathing, going to bingo, getting your bunions sorted, doing a big shop in Tesco, putting the kettle on, popping down the chippie, buying a scratch card from the newsagent, giving the car its annual service, giving the missus her weekly service, ringing your relatives, having a hair cut, listening to good music, half listening to trashy radio, clearing the ashes from the log stove, opening a tin of beans. ...

That's the atheist experience.

It isn't wondering about creationism or science. It isn't trying to understand why some people feel smug about being er.. pious.

If some people do debate such things it is because they are interested in the subject, not because they may or may not believe in group delusion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 11:50 AM

Sigh; I bet a cookie, without seeing the presentation, that the reference was not to flies that had become infertile, but to flies that had become unable to breed with their hereditary "cousins" because mutation or gene drift had separated the lineages to that extent.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 12:09 PM

Exactement. As I've oft said, our pete understands nothing about anything and he loves to come here and show off about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 12:29 PM

"If some people do debate such things it is because they are interested in the subject"

Exactly! That's why most 'believers' talk about it too, Musket. They're interested in the subject.

Sometimes (certainly not always) I do pause for a moment of silent reflection and thanks before eating a meal. Why? Well, I'm thankful that I got to eat today. I'm thankful to Mother Nature for providing the meal. I'm thankful to the farmers who grew the food and the people who cooked it (if I'm in a restaurant or whatever). I'm just thankful, period. If I think about how thankful I am for half a minute, I find I enjoy the food even more! ;-D (But I don't consider it obligatory to render such thanks...just helpful to increase my awareness of my dependence on the rest of life.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:11 PM

"The atheist experience is not as pete said above.

The atheist experience is spending Sundays washing the car, nipping down the pub, eating without mumbling an incantation first. "

As usual, the Ian Mather-centric point of view first and foremost.

Never mind that pete put "Atheist Experience" in quotes and was obviously referring to a broadcast, probably this one.
The Atheist Experience

It is not an issue that Ian Mather has his own idiosyncratic opinions on what certain words an phrases mean to him. But trying to get others to adopt them seems to be a symptom of some sort of egomaniacal grandiosity.

Obviously the people in Austin have different experiences, from Ian's and they care enough about their experiences to produce the show. While Ian, one again shows himself to be a fool by implying that pete was wrong in invoking the title of the show.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 01:51 PM

"Bill enjoys explaining things. It helps him clarify his own thinking.

Yes.. true. However: If someone simply does not wish to accept the basis of ANY explanation, there is little anyone can do.

(and sorry Pete, but the following includes references TO you as I try to explain MY position)

Pete is not alone in this, and the problem exists way beyond religious disagreements, although there are hundreds of millions of people who also have religious positions I have 'some' issue with. I guess I an glad they don't all try to post here!

Those who work hard to deny climate change often have financial interests in the industries that would be limited if scaling back of fossil fuels were implemented.
   Those who have a financial interest in gun manufacture or have a fear (real or imagined) for their security will rationalize about new laws to control firearms.
Even people who are constantly under time pressure to 'get to work on time' will rationalize about their tendency to exceed the speed limit.
People who overeat and become obese will find all sorts of reasons why they 'can't control' their weight.

The list goes on into political realms, personal areas about friends & relatives...etc... it even extends to 'edited' memories about the past.
NO ONE is immune to ALL the ways in which 'truth' and 'fact' can be distorted, sometimes honestly and understandably...no matter what others say to try to 'explain' things.

Faith in the tenets of some religious doctrine is one of the oldest human mindsets, from the earliest humans looking at lightning causing fire to the most complex writings of Jewish, Islamic or Christian theologians.
We are debating with Pete because he represents...as I recently posted... a "minority within a minority". In order maintain his beliefs in a 'young Earth' and deny evolution, he MUST also juggle concepts of what 'proof' actually consists of and must also (from Wikipedia) "Move the goalposts" (raising the bar) – argument in which evidence presented in response to a specific claim is dismissed and some other (often greater) evidence is demanded."

There are several other different logical fallacies which we have often tried to pin on Pete, and I 'could' go back and try again to make a list and say "see there? You made this error and that error!"... but the point is that he ***BELIEVES*** his basic position to be ***TRUE***, which means that all I can do is "explain things" as best I can. In the process *I* learn a lot about how to identify various fallacies and how to best illustrate and translate them. It does NOT mean I am expecting to convince Pete about the bottom line, nor does it mean that Pete is stupid of dishonest. It just means that I consider the discussion interesting and important.

Anyway... a fellow needs a hobby to keep him off the streets. ☺

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 02:20 PM

"a fellow needs a hobby to keep him off the streets"

Yes! And even moreso with Dachshunds. You wouldn't believe the trouble an idle Dachshund can get into when he ventures beyond the front door.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 03:35 PM

Are you sure? I don't wash the car, I let the Albanians over in Keadby do it. I don't service the missus once a week and I don't go to bingo or get my bunions sorted.

But you could guess that.

No. Either you deliberately misinterpret my posts to make me look silly whilst just making yourself look a twat. Or I have been wrong and you need pitying and humouring due to your low intellectual function.

Of course, you have repeatedly tried to pigeonhole all rational people with no religious hangups as being common purpose Dawkins disciples. Well the millions and millions of people who have no imaginary friend and would accept the title of atheist haven't heard of Dawkins. Increasing numbers of people have a decent education without knowing anything about Jesus, Mohammed or the bogey man.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 06:11 PM

We are debating with Pete...

Nah. The only person round here "debating" with pete is you. One fine day you'll realise that his only interest is taking the piss out of you. He hasn't got the least interest in what you're saying. That's why the same twaddle comes up again and again. He thinks we've forgotten about the last time he brought it up. And you are giving him that strong impression, that we've forgotten. More fool you. Still, it's fun to watch.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 06:43 PM

"The only person round here "debating" with pete is you."

Perhaps so... which is why we seem to be insulted simultaneously, though in different terms.

Would you mind TOO much if Pete & I continued talking over our differences of opinion in gentlemanly manner when the notion strikes us... with sarcasm from the gallery omitted? Thanks awfully in advance.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 08:22 PM

Nope. You'll get sarcasm from the gallery as deserved. That's the interwebby thingie for you. We all put up with it, even Wacko. You want a little chat with no risk of sarcasm? Well, you know what to do. There's no law that says you do it in public.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 08:47 PM

If Pete had an easy way to register, we would do it by PM.

I'm not surprised you intend to continue in your usual 'helpful' manner.

I may have a surprise for you.... we shall see.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Jul 13 - 10:28 PM

>>Nope. You'll get sarcasm from the gallery as deserved. That's the interwebby thingie for you. We all put up with it, even Wacko. You want a little chat with no risk of sarcasm? Well, you know what to do. There's no law that says you do it in public. <<


There are rules in this form. There is common decency and manners. Both should be sufficient reasons for you to cease and desist your rude and childish behavior.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:32 AM

What a Paine!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:34 AM

Aye. Common decency? You may ask for dozens of your posts to be deleted then.

You hurl insults and when you get them thrown back you go crying to the mud elves.

Steve is right to say that in an open forum anyone can post and either throw their opinion or comment on the opinion of others.

Before anyone starts getting shirty and calling for rational debate, may I remind us all that this thread is about people who believe that they are going to some mythical heaven and those who laugh at them are going to be left behind to fight each other.

Rational? Sorry, I thought the idea was to marvel at the power of group delusion?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 06:11 AM

You don't care about the rules?

Why don't we both just knock it off for the sake of manners then?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sans Ian
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 07:13 AM

Done









I'll even look after your parrot when you get called up.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 12:20 PM

point to you frogprince.after I posted that little joke,it occurred to me that someone would comment on it not being a straight analogy.and admittedly I would not have put it as precisely as you anyway.
of course I expected the usual suspects would chime in with their usual scientific ! and intelligent ! contributions,and demonstrate how much of worth they can contribute.
but if we stick with the flys,- as they reproduce so rapidly ,why is it unreasonable to expect some kind development far beyond what is offered,if evolutionism were true.
on the contrary many ,if not most supposedly MYO fossils are virtually identical to the modern organism.stasis seems to be the order of the day = or deep time!

bill- just to clarify,-I should have thought that even though an expert like you may pull me up on a logical fallacy, it does not follow that the overall argument is wrong.
it seems sort of like the brilliant lawyer that can get a crook off the hook by aguing technicalities.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:22 PM

Pete... "... many ,if not most supposedly MYO fossils are virtually identical to the modern organism."

Simply not a fact. The only way anyone can reach that conclusion is by defining anything that seems 'different' as not related to the same modern organism. It is clear that we DO have older fossils that are both different AND related.

As to fallacies: it is true that someone **may** obtain a 'correct' answer, even though their reasoning is totally confused.

" ...it does not follow that the overall argument is wrong." It does, though. The criteria for valid, logical reasoning is not the same for evaluating data. If I tell you that mixing orange juice into concrete will produce strong concrete, and you add some and get strong concrete, it does not follow that the juice was the key.

What fallacies show is that IF we find fallacious reasoning, we should suspect the answers. If two conclusions are contradictory, at least one must be wrong....perhaps both.

By analyzing the DNA of fast breeding insects (and some other organisms), we can SEE certain mutations taking place in order to maximize odd of survival.
There was a beetle which was proven to have changed its coloration to avoid detection by predators on certain colors of tree bark..... this was a case of GENETIC mutation, not just 'lucky beetles' or some other guess. They proved this.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 01:45 PM

The real question is, Bill...do the genetic mutations occur in a random fashion...with the most favorable changes being perpetuated by survival....or do they occur as a result of an actual intention on some level of consciousness? In other words, is evolution an intelligent process or is it a random process?

That is the part that really interests me. In other words, are we the result of random changes in genes...some of which turned out to be beneficial...or are we the result of an indwelling intelligence and purpose which brought about the favorable gene changes seen in the process of the evolution of species?

If so, this intelligence could be attributed to a "God"...that's one way of looking at it. Or it could be attributed to the intelligence within the organisms themselves. Or those 2 factors could be one and the same, given the fact that an ifinitely existing intelligence would be found individualized in ALL living beings, and working through them.

I've always said that the essential difference between the materialist viewpoint and the spiritual viewpoint is this: materialists seem to prefer to believe that everything we see around us happened by natural law...but without conscious intention...meaning randomly (by accident)...whereas spiritually-minded people seem to prefer to believe that everything we see around us happened by natural law...but WITH conscious intention and intelligent purpose.

That is the real dividing line between the materialist and spiritual philosophies. Both of them respect natural law (that goes without even saying)...but only one of them thinks that natural law is working through an indwelling intelligence and purpose, rather than as an unthinking system of mere random, purposeless causes and effects.

And there's no way, I submit, of proving either proposition, as we have no way of observing the source or operation of the indwelling intelligence, assuming it's there.

Since the materialistic viewpoint wants to PROVE everything, this presents materialists with a proposition they don't like, and they tend to react with denial of even the possibility. Spiritually-minded people, likewise, don't like the idea of a system that is devoid of meaning, and driven only by blind causes and effects attributed to Natural Law.

Neither group are opposed to Natural Law, but they see it from differing perspectives.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:05 PM

"The real question is, Bill...do the genetic mutations occur in a random fashion...with the most favorable changes being perpetuated by survival....or do they occur as a result of an actual intention on some level of consciousness? In other words, is evolution an intelligent process or is it a random process?"

Oh my... that issue takes many pages to answer. All I can suggest is to read Stephen J. Gould.

"Ever Since Darwin" and/or "The Panda's Thumb"

The actual answer seems to be that it is 'not exactly' random, but certainly is not 'intelligent' in the common sense of the word..... I simply can't type enough to show the complex answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 02:15 PM

I daresay. It's not a simple matter to either ponder or explain.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 10:46 PM

an informative essay on The Rapture

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Jul 13 - 11:00 PM

Good article, Jack.

The last sentence says, "We could say, then, that the realest thing about the Rapture is that it's an idea with the potential for making the earth into a graveyard." (by encouraging a reckless foreign policy that leads to uncontrollable wars in the Middle East, with unforeseen consequences for the entire world)

I think the author is quite right about that. (I added the part in brackets as further explanation to those who have not read the article)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 03:34 AM

Panda's Thumb

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 04:43 AM

And there, Mr Happy, is a perfect example of how scientists treat the emergence of an unexpected anomalous process, against the general divergent trend of evolution.

They accept it and incorporate it into the general knowledge of the subject.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 11:45 AM

For those who care to follow complex links...here is the WikiPedia article on Stephen Jay Gould.
The article contains both biographical data and brief examples of his important contributions.
One of his ideas/claims is that Science & Religion have Non-overlapping_magisteria....the idea "that science and religion each have "a legitimate magisterium, or domain of teaching authority," and these two domains do not overlap." (This is not to say that they do not impact each other!)

It is interesting to note that, although not all scientists agree with Gould in all interpretations or 'style', Gould is never dismissed, as the breadth of his research and careful analysis is seldom matched.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 01:57 PM

""One of his ideas/claims is that Science & Religion have Non-overlapping_magisteria....the idea "that science and religion each have "a legitimate magisterium, or domain of teaching authority," and these two domains do not overlap." (This is not to say that they do not impact each other!)""

Which comment would seem to be entirely justified.

A pity, isn't it, that some followers of some religions want to teach their religion in science classes, as scientifically proven by a bundle of fairy tales in an ancient collection of parables and homilies.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 04:25 PM

yeh, I suppose it was an interesting article,or at least an interesting take on those who believe in end times biblical teaching.
being a brit, I cant really comment on whether such beliefs engender such politicized mindset in americans as is described.it seems an entirely alien way of applying the scriptures to me.

bill-your beetle thing sounds interesting,especially as it seems to indicate the volition of the creature in adopting camouflage.i don't know if that's why hawk raised the question.i had always thought the theory was that the beetles that survived would be the ones that had the best disguise, and their progeny that had that advantage passed on.there is certainly nothing in that, that is against creationist thinking.no one is denying mutations happen,and that they may be benrficial to the organism sometimes.that is however,far and away from the addition of information needed for the evolutionary pathway.beetles have only been turned into beetles , despite observation over numerous generations.
and I must disagree if you are claiming that there is no stasis in comparisons of modern creatures with fossils of supposed deep time.
how many examples would you like?
that is not to say that every organism has survived,as even in modern times some face extinction.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 05:54 PM

"....i had always thought the theory was that the beetles that survived would be the ones that had the best disguise, and their progeny that had that advantage passed on."

Oh, that IS essentially what happens...[NOT to be confused with Lamarck's theory]....but what has been shown in beetles, as well as other fast breeding creatures that we can observe many, many generations of, is that the process of adaption IS one aspect of an evolutionary process!

Here.. read about one beetle that is at the center of the debate

first, the creationist take
then the scientific answer


then an article about how beetles in general help us comprehend what is happening


What is evident is that those who do not wish to accept evolution are doing what I referred to earlier.... they are doing what is often called "armchair science" and claiming that "it couldn't have happened that way because.... (insert some arbitrary pseudo-fact here". They 'prove' that such & such characteristic MUST have been designed by making up facts that are simply not factual.... or if factual, are not relevant to the case.

"...comparisons of modern creatures with fossils of supposed deep time.
how many examples would you like?"

Fire away with examples... but be aware that I can guess ahead of time that they will be as I mentioned above...non-facts or irrelevant facts. There are just too many interlocking bits of science that support each other in showing that diversity IS a product of evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Jul 13 - 06:01 PM

I see that we're almost to 500, but I am not going to bother fighting for it





,,,oooops