BS: Is the Rapture Underway???

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 15 Jul 13 - 08:10 PM

Hey, Wacko, how does that last post (I wish...) of yours chime with your constant whingeing about how people are so hurtfully uncivil and rude to you? You're not in the navy now, my lad (probably washing other men's underpants, y'owld dhobi wallah)...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 01:16 AM

Wash your mouth out Jerk. ...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 01:25 AM

Ditto, Greg. Shut yer gob, sod off, push off, bugger off, get stuffed, and go pound sand.

Steve - To the contrary, old sport. I was not being disingenous in the least when I said that. I was being dead serious. To become genuinely free a person must be willing to challenge religious mythology, political mythology, cultural mythology and every common form of social mythology that is shoved down the throats of the young by their usually well-meaning but far from omniscient parents. It is a lifelong challenge.

I easily rejected the more primitive forms of religious mythology by the time I was 5 or 6 years old, after being sent to just ONE Sunday school class. That was all it took for me to say "I don't buy this stuff." It took another couple of years maybe to see through the "Santa Claus" thing, which my parents went to some trouble to inculcate in my consciousness. It took quite a bit longer, however, for me to see through the absolute bloody mountain of social, political, and cultural propaganda that was likewise foisted on me by a well-meaning adult world, by the schools, by the government, etc.

It's a lifetime job to get free of that sort of programming, and most people don't do it all that well, because they just tend to believe what they're told as long as it comes from the higher "authorities" all around them.

But I'm sure you're far too clever to be taken in like that, right?

(I grew up in an atheist family, by the way. My mother sent me to that one single Sunday school class simply because "all the other children" were going, and she was worried what the neighbours would think if I didn't go too. I came back, said, "They're teaching crazy stuff there that can't possibly be true," and she said, "Okay, then I won't send you there anymore."

Just the sort of thing you like to hear, right, Steve? I was SAVED!!! (in your terms) ;-D And by my very own decision too. I never attended a church during my entire childhood and adolescence other than that one abortive visit to Sunday school. More stuff for you to be happy about, Steve! Light a bunsen burner and say a few "Hail Dawkins's" as you celebrate my escape from the dreadful horrors of oganized religion... (sarcasm)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 02:16 AM

BlowhardT lying about me is pretty uncivil in itself Steve and Ian. You would know that if you cared anything about lying. Also if you cared anything about civility.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:01 AM

bill - when you ask me a theological question,or make a statement relating to God,- where do you think i am going to go, other that the bible.

gfs- revolve? well in the sense of turning around to the opposite direction.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:34 AM

Wot a load of sanctimonious, soft-centred twaddle, Hawk.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:22 AM

Ho! Ho! Thanks for that kind remark, Steve. You're such a sweet fellow. Now go off and kick your dog, you rugged example of British manhood unsullied by any of the softer virtues... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 11:33 AM

Well Pete... then we can't do a lot other than compare notes, hmmm?

It is still true that in all discussions of this nature the existence of an all-powerful god and the bible as authority IS what is at issue.

It plays out this way: Religious people make claims based on what they believe...and often those claims involve telling NON-religious people that they should become religious. In the USA this is often shown by attempts to get religious **opinions** included in basic school textbooks, as if those opinions were proven. They also attempt (and often succeed) in getting laws passed which are little more than more religious opinions disguised as 'medical facts' or 'financial adjustments.
   Needless to say, NON-religious people object to having their lives affected by belief systems they are not part of. This, I gather, does not happen quite as much in the UK as it does in the US....but perhaps you can see why NON-religious people often make extra effort to explain why they are NON-religious.

It is not a matter of 'good' people or 'bad' people... at least to me. It is a matter ideas. I would never interfere with a Christian's right to go to church... or to live as he chooses... as long as his behavior doesn't impinge on MY rights. I know personally many good, decent Christians who worship as they please, and respect my wishes. We almost never even discuss these topics.... but as far as I know, none of them deny evolution or the scientific data on the age of the Earth or the Universe.

I am not sure, Pete, why YOU choose to face all the criticism here as about the only 'fundamentalist' who tries to argue for a "young Earth". It is a fairly free forum, and you are allowed to say what you wish, but you are pretty well outnumbered here, and 'strict fundamentalists' both in the UK and the US are well outnumbered by those who follow most of the wisdom and teachings of the Bible, but don't take it literally.

(ummm...I am sort of outnumbered also, as one of the few who will try to debate facts without insults...*more wry grins*. It is up to you if you want to continue this exchange under the circumstances.)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 12:41 PM

Well said, Bill.

The interesting thing is that when people take the Bible as THE one   absolute and perfect authority, which is an act of faith on their part, what they are really taking as the authority is the word of various other people to that effect. They have decided to have faith in the opinions and assumptions of certain other people regarding the Bible, and that's all.

If they'd been born in a Muslim culture, then they'd no doubt have had the same faith in the word of certain other people around them, only it would have led to a different conclusion: that the Koran is the final authority on the Word of God. And if they'd been born Mormons, then it would be the Book of Mormon. Or they might look to the Pope if they are very strict Catholics. And so on.

In every case their unquestioned faith in the book or the leader proceeds directly from their previously unquestioned faith in the various people who told them to have faith in the book or the leader.

pete - You ask "where do you think i am going to go, other than the bible?" The answer to that should be fairly obvious, pete. Go within yourself. Become silent, become very attentive, and go within. Search your own heart. That's what Jesus advised. It's also what Buddha and countless other great teachers have advised. If God lives within each one of us...and I'm sure you believe that that is so...then you can definitely find God (and peace and love) by going within. Seek and you shall find. And you can also find God in other ways, and reading the great spiritual books of the various traditions is one way that can certainly help you do so, but that is not to say that any one spiritual book is the ONLY source...or that it is a perfect source. They were all written by men, after all, and men are fallible...and easily swayed by politics, prejudice, culture, and whatever else influences their thinking at the time. That's why I look on all the great spiritual books as guides...but none of them as a perfect and exclusive source of spiritual truth.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 01:34 PM

But pete. Why just the bible? God appears in far more books than just that. Broaden your horizons! What does the Q'ran tell you? What pearls of wisdom are there in Hindu texts? Norse and Greek mythology has lots of Gods.

Whatever the question, the answer is there. And what's more, you don't have to think for yourself either!

I reckon you are flogging a dead horse there littlehawk. Ah well, your idea.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 04:50 PM

Perhaps. ;-) But the fact is, you DO have to think for yourself to make any real spiritual progress in this life. You can't ride on other's laurels or achieve "salvation by association", in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 05:54 PM

""If you can quote me expressing that emotion, you can show me to be a liar. I dare you! Try it! or you can continue to bevae as a blowhard and a clown. The choice is yours.""

I'm not, as far as I know, your f***king servant Jack, so do your own homework.

Review your posts to the first several days of the "militant atheist" thread, and count the number in which you take Dawkins remarks personally and bemoan the fact that he is mocking and belittling YOU!

He doesn't actually know you, clown, and I doubt he would want to.

Then follow through and see how you provoke responses from Steve and Ian, and then claim those responses are an attack, by them, on you.

You are, as I said a passive/aggressive who needs to play the victim and engineers the situation to that end.
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:28 PM

You are a full of crap blowhard stupid enough to try to convince people that I could not speculate about cave men by pointing to modern societies of hunter gatherers.

You are idiot enough not to know that Dawkins mocks and belittles ALL believers, including me, you are dumb enough not to see that I am not taking any of this nonsense personally and unself-aware enough to know that on these threads I have been looking for atheist evangelists to show themselves and then to hit them between the eyes with their own lack of logic. You have fallen for the bait several times, not for any ideological or moral reason that I can see, but seemingly to show off how smart you think you are.

No you are not my servant. Neither are you arguing intelligently or backing up any of your wild assertions with anything remotely resembling facts. I was offering you a chance to do that. Your adamant refusal speaks volumes about your methods and intentions. You are indeed, full of BS. But this IS the BS section so you can be forgiven for that even as I know you will forgive me for being amused by pointing it out.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:40 PM

Atheist evangelists. Priceless. That's absolutely the most amusing idiotic statement I've seen in many a long year.

Dawkins doesn't usually mock anyone who, thru their actions, foolishness, or intellectual sloppiness doesn't DESERVE to be mocked.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 06:47 PM

""I have been looking for atheist evangelists to show themselves and then to hit them between the eyes with their own lack of logic. You have fallen for the bait several times, not for any ideological or moral reason that I can see, but seemingly to show off how smart you think you are.""

Then you missed the target by a mile you dozy prat!!

I'LL GIVE YOU A CLUE:-

Try actually READING what I have said chump! If you were targetting Atheist Evangelists, you missed twice over.

1. I'm not an Atheist, because I DO believe in a Deity!

2. I'm not an Evangelist, because I don't give a rat's arse where anybody else chooses to place their trust and faith, as long as they leave me alone.

I reserve the right to my opinion that they, and you, are deluded, not for believing in what you choose as a God, but for believing that you need a bunch of blokes who can't even put a collar on the right way round to find him for you.

And, purely by the way, I have never come across an Atheist Evangelist, and as far as I know, neither has anybody else.

Anybody out there actually claiming to have seen a living, breathing, OXYMORON?

Nice try Jack, but no coconut this time!

One thing I will say. I much prefer talking to Atheists. On the whole they are much more open minded than you and your kind.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:05 PM

"You have fallen for the bait several times, not for any ideological or moral reason that I can see, but seemingly to show off how smart you think you are."

Try reading what you quote, chump.

I said you fell for it to show how smart you are and that isn't working out for you. A point well made by you in your previous posts.


Greg, say something someone says is the most stupid thing in years quite often. It is making you appear to be lazy and not very self aware. Why don't you find something more original to say?

"Atheist evangelists. Priceless. That's absolutely the most amusing idiotic statement I've seen in many a long year."

I am also sorry to read that your vocabulary education has not extended beyond a strict 18th century of the word "evangelist." It can properly be uses in other contexts besides Christian ministry.

Techology Evangelist

It can also be used ironically with a wry sense of humor to describe people who attack religion and promote atheism.

Thank you for being about the 25th person on this forum to say something stupid about Militant Atheism. The writers at Salon.com must be very proud of their title.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:30 PM

Trouble is, Wacko Jacko, the people around here who you consider to be militant/evangelical atheists would scarcely stick their heads above the parapet at all if it wasn't for you and similar pricks upping the ante all the time by starting these threads (mainly you, of course). We don't start these threads, you do. As I recall, the average evangelist/militant doesn't evangelise or militate by sitting at home on his arse keeping quiet unless some twat or other (the cap fits - put it on) pipes up with a thread accusing us of starting a new religion or something. Wacko, you're the militant. You're the evangelist. You're the bloke who can't stand it if this stuff isn't constantly upfront. Mostly we don't give a monkey's Mickey, but you're such an entertaining chap to take the piss out of, you see.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 07:46 PM

"Well said Bill" my arse, Little Hawk. Here's a snippet of Bill's that you are so in praise of:

I would never interfere with a Christian's right to go to church... or to live as he chooses... as long as his behavior doesn't impinge on MY rights. I know personally many good, decent Christians who worship as they please, and respect my wishes.

Well as long as "I'm all right Bill", that's hunkydory. But there are hundreds of millions of Christians/Jews/Muslims in the world who leave Bill alone, but they don't leave their kids alone, do they? They send them to faith schools and Sunday schools and sign them up for life in bogus institutions under pain of hell/ostracism/death for demurring and in many cases they have them ceremonially mutilated. All in the cause of a God who doesn't actually exist. I would never interfere with a Christian's right to go to church or to live as he chooses, either, as long as his behaviour doesn't impinge on other people's rights, including me and children. I know personally many good, decent Christians who worship as they please, and respect my wishes. I also know many who don't see anything wrong with making their kids sit in classrooms under a crucifix and get railroaded into chanting prayers and singing hymns which express spurious certainties about the God they happen to have been born under. These people are the true militants. Don't ask questions! The Cause is everything!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:13 PM

I don't consider anyone here to be "Militant Atheists." "Militant Atheists." is Salon.coms term. A couple of you did self-identify by taking offense to the term. I consider you a rude name caller who cares way more about religion than you pretend.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:20 PM

You're treading tired old ground, Steve. We've already covered that issue in great detail (parental brainwashing of children...which goes far beyond just their religious programming), but you only remember (or focus on) the specific stuff you want to remember and focus on...only the stuff that haunts your particular anxiety closet, and I'd be wasting my time to cover it all again. I explained how to become a freethinking person: stringently question and re-examine ALL of the conditioning you received as a child. And I have.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:24 PM

You started a thread called "Militant atheism has become a religion", remember? You didn't start a thread called "Is militant atheism becoming a religion?", did you? As you sow, Wacko, so shall you reap.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:30 PM

what you say about christianity infringing or not as the case may be could as equally be said about the religious nature of atheism.in my country i think probably most people dont question darwinism.i understand that a lot do in your country.why should their rights be infringed by this unproven relgious position being shoved at them and taught to their kids as though it were a proven fact.
i also notice,bill that you are again playing the numbers game.i expect the opponents of copernacus and galileo [ and doubtless others also] did the same. and of course the science of their day eventually gave way.
i should point out ,bill, that i hardly ever quoted the bible till you rsaied a directly theological question.previous to that i was seeking to expose the lack of proof for darwinism - often by quoting evolutionists themselves!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:37 PM

You're treading tired old ground, Steve. We've already covered that issue in great detail (parental brainwashing of children...which goes far beyond just their religious programming)...

So what? Does that justify "religious programming"? I don't regard the responsible upbringing of children as brainwashing in any sense at all. You are making a disingenuously false equivalence between that and indoctrination with a religion which is very much a bolt-on that comes from outside. Millions of parents the wide world over provide a very complete and fulfilling upbringing for their children without resort to spurious tales of prophets, miracles and deities. Without telling them lies, in other words. And don't give me that tired old ground crap. We'll go over the tired old ground, old fruit, as many times as it takes in order for religious proselytisers to realise they don't have a God-given right to do whatever they like to their kids unchallenged.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 08:40 PM

why should their rights be infringed by this unproven relgious position being shoved at them and taught to their kids as though it were a proven fact

Yet you don't attack the teaching of religious myth as truth to kids, a thousand times more unproven, you bloody hypocrite. Go to hell.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:04 PM

Pete, evolution IS a proven fact.

I am a member of a main line Christian church. I know of no one in the congregation of this church who believes that the earth is only 6,000 years old or that God sculpted Adam out of mud, extracted a rub, and made Eve.

The Universe is at least 13 billion years old, the earth is about 4.5 billion years old, and humans, as such, have been around for at least 100,000 years, gradually evolving into what we are today.

Your God is little more than a wand-waving wizard

A God who could create the Universe and all that's in it, including the earth and all that's on it, is a bit more powerful than that.

As to human beings, evolution is the way God did it.

And there is plenty of proof for evolution.

(Why do I bother? It's futile!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:07 PM

So Pete, what's the deal? Do you think you're e..e. cummings, or Archie the Cockroach?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:22 PM

HAH!!

Maybe a bit too subtle, Greg.

(But after it sank in, I had to wipe a mouthful of coffee off my computer screen.)
Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:24 PM

Great! That's going to keep me cackling for the rest of the week!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 09:58 PM

Pete HAS explained before why he uses lower case. I don't like it, and it seems a stretch to 'honor' God and make it hard for everyone to read his posts.... but *shrug*.... I doubt he will change, so I deal with it.


and Pete...".why should their rights be infringed by this unproven relgious position ...?"

I will say this only once... Accepting the basic facts of evolution is NOT a religious position! "Darwinism" is not in the same category as Methodism, or Catholicism or Islam...or "fundamentalism"...etc. It is not even a good term to describe the complex science involved.

We do not 'believe' in some cult called "Darwinism"...

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 11:02 PM

"You started a thread called "Militant atheism has become a religion", remember? You didn't start a thread called "Is militant atheism becoming a religion?", did you? As you sow, Wacko, so shall you reap. "

I QUOTED the title of the article in the title of the tread and I quoted the article in the opening post. I said about 6 times in that I didn't agree with that stance. I get that you only read what you want to read to form your insults and arguments.

I reap what I sew? Eh? I'm getting very good yield from that one little article and quote that I didn't even have to write or defend. Lots of entertaining pseudo-scientific hogwash and idiosyncratic "logic" from you and I** M*****.

Keep growing your silly illogical bile. Keep delivering it to my feet. Keep displaying your ignorance as a peacock proudly shows his tail.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 12:06 AM

Can't you guys 'discuss' something 'spiritual', and not be so fucking nasty to each other??
Same ol' shit, different flies!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 12:08 AM

You are blaspheming Shaw's faith GfS. Trashing religion is his religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Musket
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:08 AM

I know what! I shall find a quote of something I disagree with and start a thread. Then when the stance is sufficiently ridiculed, I will point out then, and only then, that I too disagree with it, and what silly twat started it?

Oh, and I shall start a few other threads on the same topic.

Just to flush out those who see through my shallow stance so I can shout at them, then look hurt when they shout back.

Do they have psychologists in your neck of the woods J**k? As you don't have universal healthcare, I am sure we can all have a whipround for you.



Hey Goofus! Don't get caught in the cross fire then. You know I know better than to take you seriously, I even write you poetry for Clapton's sake!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:08 AM

Steve, you said: "We'll go over the tired old ground, old fruit, as many times as it takes in order for religious proselytisers to realise they don't have a God-given right to do whatever they like to their kids unchallenged."

For sure! I have no real disagreement with you there. In fact, I am just as concerned as you are about parents spoonfeeding unrealistic ideas to their children, and I think those ideas should be challenged. The saving grace to that is that most adolescents go through a period of several years when they DO challenge almost everything their parents told them...and that's the age when most young people tend to at least temporarily reject organized religion.

The only real disagreement we have, I think, is this: You look at religion and you seem to see only BAD stuff. I look at religion and I see some bad stuff...and some good stuff...plenty of both, in fact...and it's the good stuff I'm mainly interested in. What's the proportion of bad stuff to good stuff? Well, that depends on which particular group of religious people you focus on...and it can vary wildly from 50/50 to 10/90 to 40/60 or any other ratio one could possibly care to mention.

As with politics, when dealing with religions you have to find a group or a philosophy whose ideas mesh positively with your own, and you have to work with the positive side of it if you want something positive to happen.

I am just as aware of the excesses and mistakes in religion as you are, Steve...and I oppose them just as you do...but I don't imagine that there's nothing BUT bad things to be found in religion.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:17 AM

Oh, and... "as many times as it takes in order for religious proselytisers to realise they don't have a God-given right to do whatever they like"

Ha! What messianic confidence! You DO know that's not going to happen, right? ;-D

We're just huffing and puffing like the Big Bad Wolf at the brick house, Steve. It's fun. It gives us something to do in our idle time here, but it's not going to change anything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:22 PM

you may say it just once ,bill,but i dont mind repeating or expanding a point.IMO IT JUST DEPENDS ON INDIVIDUAL PERPECTIVE.if your definition of a religious position has to mention a deity,then atheism and evolutionism is not a religious position.
my definition is that a god is not a pre-requisite to a position on origins ,for example, being a religious position.
i can always find a quote from an evolutionist that admits it is a religious position, should you want to challenge that.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 05:34 PM

I'm not sure what you're saying there, pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:07 PM

Evolution is NOT a religious position.

It is a scientific position and it is demonstrable.

Darwin may have made a few mistakes in details early on, but his general thesis was--and IS--valid.

It is not, in any way, a religious position.

It does not contradict the existence of God. The account in the Book of Genesis is mythology, not an actual description of how God did it.

Contrary to what they may believe, Fundamentalists are not really religious. They are believers in primitive superstition.

(Why do I bother? I've been here before and it's useless!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 06:48 PM

""Techology""

WTF is that Jack? The study of secondary schools?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:00 PM

""Can't you guys 'discuss' something 'spiritual', and not be so fucking nasty to each other??
Same ol' shit, different flies!"2

If you don't like it Goofus, there are other threads.

Please shut the door quietly as you leave.

We don't want to wake Pete.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:09 PM

Belief is fine - no matter how bizarre. It's when it captures functions of the state it becomes problematic.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:15 PM

""my definition is that a god is not a pre-requisite to a position on origins ,for example, being a religious position.""

I disagree with that Pete.

A God is a prerequisite for faith. But a group of men with a common belief, and agreed rites and rituals which they consider sacred, is a prerequisite for religion and religious beliefs.

God doesn't need religion and neither do I.

But religions need a God, and each one manufactures its own sacred one and only true God, and defends it with religious fervour and often violence.

I talk directly to the God I believe in and I don't have to kill anyone or adhere to anyone else's belief.

Just please don't ever dare to call my faith a religion because it is the antithesis of that.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:33 PM

"God doesn't need religion and neither do I."

Well put, Don T! You've stated a profound truth there.

"But religions need a God, and each one manufactures its own sacred one and only true God, and defends it with religious fervour and often violence."

True in some cases, Don. Not in all cases, though. There have been some religions that didn't posit a God at all (such as Buddhism and Taoism, to mention two), but did assume a more impersonal divine order of some kind. There have been some religions that were/are quite tolerant of other (foreign) ideas about God...such as Hinduism, the Baha'i faith, Buddhism, the North American Indian traditional religion, and many more liberal people and churches among modern Christans, Jews, etc.

"A God is a prerequisite for faith."

Again...not necessarily. One can believe in some sort of divine order or way of things without necessarily ascribing it to a deity. A Deity is an individualized representation of "someone" who is supposedly in command of that divine order. Taoism speaks of "the Way". Buddhism speaks of enlightenment. Hinduism speaks of Nirvana (while using many symbolic gods and goddesses to illustrate various archetypes of existence). North American Indian traditional religion speaks of "the Great Mystery" (or "the Great Spirit")...which is not a manlike being, but something much larger and less definable than an individualized being.

*****

I think this is what is required to have a religious sense of life: a belief in the Sacred, and a belief that there is a much higher purpose to life than mere competition and survival, and that that purpose underpins and supports all of life and gives life its true meaning. You don't have to belong to any organized religion to believe in that....but you might belong to one...and still believe in it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 07:51 PM

It seems you've stirred up the pot and raised some eyebrows, Pete.

"I can always find a quote from an evolutionist that admits it is a religious position, ..."

Well, if you can find such a quote, it proves nothing. At that point the word "admits" becomes the issue. "Admits" implies a whole lot more than "claims" or "asserts".

SOME things just DEPEND ON INDIVIDUAL PERSPECTIVE.... but words have to mean something. A 'religious perspective' is about religion... evolution is about having opinions that are NOT specifically religious. If all you mean is that you can find folks who accept evolution, but also believe in a god... sure... but then the point is that it is possible to BE religious and also accept evolution.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 08:13 PM

The only real disagreement we have, I think, is this: You look at religion and you seem to see only BAD stuff. I look at religion and I see some bad stuff...and some good stuff... Wotta bunch of utter, dishonest cobblers. Did your Aunt Sally teach you that? Ask her to teach you to read what people write instead of imagining what you'd like people to write in order for you to be able to make the next stupid point that comes into your head.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 08:15 PM

i can always find a quote from an evolutionist that admits it is a religious position

Come along then. I'm all ears.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 09:23 PM

Steve, I am attempting to communicate with you about this subject in a friendly, respectful, and constructive manner...and to find some common ground between us. When you respond in a similar fashion, then we might succeed in actually having a real conversation. All you're doing at present is acting like a stupid bully in a 5th grade schoolyard, albeit one who's learned slightly more advanced language than the average 5th grader is capable of. I have no aunt Sally...or any other living aunts, for that matter. My elders all passed on some time ago.

If there were a hell, (and I doubt there is) your fitting punishment would be stuck with your own company there. You treat other people like shit, so why should they pay any attention to anything you say?

I AGREE with some of the stuff you've said on these threads, you fucking asshole, but you're so busy just putting other people down that I doubt you ever even noticed.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 10:17 PM

I tried agreeing with him on earlier threads, Little Hawk... it did about the same amount of good. I got roundly raked over the coals for being polite when conversing with Pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:43 PM

Steve is a jerk. That was proved beyond doubt in the militant atheist thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 17 Jul 13 - 11:44 PM

4 hundred