BS: Is the Rapture Underway???

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket sanctimonious as a sailor
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:04 AM

Yeah but he is also a fellow Messiah, if you have been reading the thread Jerk himself refers to. Other than his football misgivings, oh and hatred of apple sauce, he seems to have Catholicism weighed up. Not having ever been a member of any religious organisation, I do note the serious comment behind the style. My style is to provoke thought, or take the piss as Jerk The Sea Cadet says, latching onto an off the cuff comment I made in a different thread.

I reckon it is more of "militant? I'll show you bloody militant! " although I am sure Mr Shaw can speak for himself.

I fully agree with littlehawk when he says that PMs are better for serious debate. I reckon we can all be strutting peacocks on these threads, especially when reacting to gormless comments.   No names, no loss of rum ration.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:45 AM

Obviously a jerk as well. But less coherent.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:05 AM

Steve, I am attempting to communicate with you about this subject in a friendly, respectful, and constructive manner...and to find some common ground between us. When you respond in a similar fashion, then we might succeed in actually having a real conversation. All you're doing at present is acting like a stupid bully in a 5th grade schoolyard

Then don't misrepresent me. I have never in my life said that religion contains "only bad stuff". Quite the opposite on a number of occasions. Misrepresenting someone, then knocking them down for the lie you've constructed about them, is a hundred times more the act of a schoolyard bully than any plain speaking.

you fucking asshole

Hmm. You seem to have failed in your mission to be "friendly, respectful, and constructive". Actually, you seem to have lost it completely, I'd say.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:11 AM

I tried agreeing with him on earlier threads, Little Hawk... it did about the same amount of good. I got roundly raked over the coals for being polite when conversing with Pete.

Hmm. The sooner you and Hawk decide that you are not here in order to "do good", the better off we'll be. As for pete, you're his main succour on this board. Your "constructive" attitude ("indulgent" may be more apposite) to his vile nonsense is what keeps him going. Fat lot of "good" that's done.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:38 AM

oh dear we seemed to have dragged something unpleasant over from another thread!.my consolation is that the mockers only serve to confirm that they have no constructive arguments,and only serve to confirm mine.
then there is don firth who does not resort to such gutter tactics but is strong on asserting evolutionism as an unassailable fact.
ray comfort has a new video out, in which he interviews students and profs who fail to provide evidence for darwinist belief.i have only read a review so far,and that did make the point that clipped interviews can miss out qualifying material.
meanwhile CMI's 15 questions for evolutionists are still available for evolutionist answers - if they have anything of substance to answer with,that is!.
and i found a link purporting to give "15 answers to creationist nonsense".never wanting to accused of being closed minded,i clicked on it.not only did it make me wait,it was not available when in did open!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket giggling
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:45 AM

If stupidity, senseless arguing and posturing confirms your belief pete, I'm with you on that one...

It possibly didn't open because there is no belief called Darwinism.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:39 AM

Gutter tactics include the summary dismissal, without the slightest justification, of the evidence that comes from the hard work of honest scientists. You are the past master of presenting little titbits that you haven't read properly. As I've said before, you're the laziest person on this board by a country mile. And the most pig-ignorant.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:50 AM

pete,

Here's Ray Comfort proving intelligent design, says it all really

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:27 AM

I think the pineapple refutes the banana.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 07:43 AM

Yep. Thousands of years of scientific endeavour lead us to...Ray Comfort!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 08:53 AM

.......so why didn't the imaginary deity attach a ring-pull to a coconut?

Another of the mysteries of life!

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:23 AM

If we're not here "to do good" (in this life), Steve...

What are we here for?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:35 AM

And sure, I may have misunderstood what you were thinking...we all sometimes misunderstand what the other person is thinking. If so...then just explain what you're thinking. That's what I do when people don't understand something I said.

Rather than trying to verbally destroy the people we don't agree with on some subject, Steve...which is what far too many people here on Mudcat do all the time...why not try to communicate with them in a reasonable manner and find out why they think what they do? It makes for a better conversation.

We've got a choice. We're either in this world to do good...or to do harm. (or to do nothing at all...which eventually leads to harm) The choice is in front of us at all times.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:36 AM

Special offer from Il Papa!!; http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/16/vatican-indulgences-pope-francis-tweets

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:37 AM

Shorter sentences in Hell?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:43 AM

Heh! Well, if you're a Catholic you might worry about that. Or you might not. Not all Catholics hang on every word the Pope utters.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:46 AM

""There have been some religions that didn't posit a God at all (such as Buddhism and Taoism, to mention two), but did assume a more impersonal divine order of some kind.""

Which is why I don't see them as religions at all, nor do they call themselves religions.

Talk to Buddhists or Taoists and they will talk about their philosophy or way of life, and the impersonal divine order of which you speak is within themselves, not external.

It is other religions who hang the religion tag on them, much as JtS is trying to do with Atheists.

It would seem that pigeonholing those who disagree as religions, gives the automatic right to list them as inimical to your manufactured God, and therefore inferior.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 10:55 AM

"... who fail to provide evidence for darwinist belief."

Fail? What sort of evidence does he....or you.. require? The literature of science is chock-full of more evidence than any one person can evaluate in a lifetime! The evidence comes from various different areas of science, and always confirms the basic facts. Are you willing to subject YOUR beliefs to the same standard of proof?
I just watched the beginning of this video (almost an hour long) in which Comfort does the semantic trick of saying "Upon my conversion, I came to know Jesus as the source of truth and life..." (I think I copied that correctly.) He challenges atheists to be able to make a similar claim. The atheist in the discussion says "Ok... *I* am the way. Everything I say is true". Comfort replies, "Ok..resurrect yourself from the dead, and I'll believe you."
Pete... he does exactly like you in simply stating that...somehow... in 'accepting' the divinity & message of Jesus (or, what someone TOLD you was a truth) that he thereby 'knows'. He is once again using the claim to justify the claim... the famous circular reasoning.
I am not sure he...or you.. are even trying to comprehend the difference between your subjective acceptance of a 'message' and the rational, analytic, ongoing integration of enormous amounts of scientific data... that is, *evidence*.. that evolution IS a fact and that we are merely adding details and refining our understanding of the process.

Any assertion should be subject to various forms of proof and coherence, and science does this continuously. Religion has nowhere to go after making its basic claim. Even if someone found a cave with Jesus name on a big stone, and if everyone shrugged and decided to accept the idea that there was a 'historical' preacher of that name 2000 years ago, the claim of 'resurrection' is essentially another level of claim.

You cannot simply state that "Darwinism" is 'just another type of belief system. Doing so shows a basic error in comprehension as to what a 'belief system' IS! I suspect that Comfort... and you... and most other intelligent fundamentalists... realize at some level that you cannot agree to the proper definition without weakening your position.

A sometime quoted but seldom properly attributed remark quotes an old woman as saying "Of course it was a just war, my son died in it!" (Nietzsche- "Thus Spake Zarathstra"). One can see at once the error of the judgment, as well as the naturalness of the opinion. We humans must monitor ourselves very carefully to avoid that kind of rationalization.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 11:01 AM

Fine, Don. You don't have to call them "religions" if you don't want to. Your choice. I call them religions. The Buddists have priests, rituals, and temples. They have a sense of the sacred. As far as I'm concerned, that's a religion.

All religions put forward a "philosophy or way of life". Some include a deity (or deities). Some do not.

Yes, "the impersonal divine order of which you speak is within themselves"....and it's also everywhere else, which includes all the stuff that is external to themselves. It is experienced both within and outside of the one having the experience. Within, as consciousness. Outside of, through interaction with the rest of the Cosmos.

I don't regard "other religions" as inferior, because I'm not exclusively attached in any way when it comes to religion...so there ARE no "other" religions from my perspective...there are simply many religions, all of which are at their heart a search for meaning, purpose, and truth. I look for whatever good can be found in each one of them.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:36 PM

So many religions around, wouldn't it be funny if we haven't found a real one yet? And all believers are lining up for the pits of some hell or other whilst only those who never worship any diety are allowed into the eternal pub or whatever it is, as we don't worship false idols. (Kate Bush was never false ok?)

I'd need divine surgery to wipe the smug grin off my ex face.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:38 PM

We're here (on this board, under that line) to argue the toss, not to patronise other people here by pretending we're trying to "do them good". This is not life. This is a thread on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:41 PM

A possible answer to the question; Why are we all here?

Because we're not all there!! 8-)

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:47 PM

There was a time when you got a plenary indulgence just for nipping into church, bending a knee and repeating twice more on the same day, but only on certain days (I think maybe you had to do a quick Our Father, Hail Mary and Glory Be). Shit hot it was if you were a lousy sinner but couldn't be arsed to go to confession very often. Of course, you had to be sure that none of your sins ever crossed the line into mortaldom. No indulgence got you off that rap. That simply had to be the confessional. I was never entirely sure how impure a thought had to be before it was mortal. I asked a priest that in confession once and he asked me exactly what kind of impure thoughts I had in mind. I kid you not.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 12:53 PM

""They have a sense of the sacred. As far as I'm concerned, that's a religion.""

So LH, are you saying that I, an individual, cannot have a sense of the sacred, or conversely do you contend that my having a sense of the sacred makes me a one man religion?

Those, with respect, seem to be the only two alternatives that your suggestion permits.

I don't like either, nor do I believe either.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:06 PM

"are you saying that I, an individual, cannot have a sense of the sacred"

Certainly not! I think everyone holds something sacred. For one man it might be his mug of ale....for another, his family...for another, his country...for another it might be all of life. ;-)

"do you contend that my having a sense of the sacred makes me a one man religion?"

Possibly... ;-) But I can't say for sure. I'd have to know you better to be sure about that. It wouldn't be an organized religion, mind you, but it might still be a religion in an individual sense. For instance, I'd say that both my father and his blasted older brother (the nuclear physicist with the photographic memory and the personality of a turd) worshipped their own egos to an extent that was quite clearly religious in both depth of faith and intensity. They detested each other, and it was no mystery why! ;-D Each got in the way of the other's godlike presence.

"I don't like either, nor do I believe either."

Fine. I don't say that you should. Believe whatever you want to.

****

Impure thoughts, Steve? Yikes! Yeah, I've had any number of those. ;-) They assault me every time women cross my mind, but I haven't talked to a priest about it. Sounds like that priest was just longing to hear about yours. You should've gone into great detail and been really inventive, it probably would have made his day.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:19 PM

oxford dictionary-
1- a particular system of faith and worship.
2-a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion.

"evolution is promoted by its practitioners as more than mere science.evolution is promulgated as an ideology,a secular religion-a full fledged alternative to christianity,with meaning and morality.i am an ardent evolutionist and an ex-christian,but i must admit that in this one complaint-mr gish is but one of many to make it-the literalists are absolutely right.evolution is a religion.this was true of evolution in the beginning,and it is true of evolution still today.....
evolution therefore came into being as a kind of secular ideology,an explicit substitute for christianity"
ruse,m   national post ppb1 b3 b7    13/5/2000

so there you have it- a dictionary entry,and an admission.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:19 PM

"We're here (on this board, under that line) to argue the toss"

Yes, but hopefully in a moderately constructive fashion...

"not to patronise other people here by pretending we're trying to "do them good".

It's not patronising. It is simply stating what I think are good things to do, and good ways to behave, as opposed to destructive things to do and destructive ways to behave.

"This is not life. This is a thread on the internet."

I take your point...and I don't take the stuff that happens here all that seriously nor give it much importance...but I do think everything is still part of the experience we call "life"...including chat on the internet.

***

Interesting, Steve, that you grew up (I assume) in the Catholic church community, while I grew up in an atheistic, household. It could, to some extent, account for what things tend to push our buttons, couldn't it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:34 PM

pete - There are a great many Christians and other religious people who DO believe in the modern theory of evolution. Most Christians I know believe in it.

Then too, most of the Asian religions/philosophies/etc regard evolution on a spiritual level as well as evolution in the sense of what is referred to in nature science. That is to say...it isn't just a question for them of the evolution of bodies and minds, but also the evolution of soul or spirit as consciousness working through bodies and minds...and this would occur alongside and in concert with the sort of physical/genetic evolution the scientific community is normally talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 03:57 PM

pete. You'll never go to heaven telling porkies. ..

Evolution is a scientific model that to greater or lesser degrees is consistent with findings and has yet to be fundamentally questioned. If it is, then that would be exciting. Same as Einstein showing us flaws in Newtonian physics, and especially absolute state. Science changed overnight. Just like that. No wars, no followers, just cold examination of the theory.

If some people see reality as an alternative to a religion, its a bit like real normal Christians not wanting to be lumped with delusional idiots who think biblical fantasy is more than creative writing to derive a moral stance.

Christians can be embarrassed when I point out young earth creationists as being Christian. Rational people can be embarrassed when some idiots see science as a belief system.

Science isn't a belief system and creationism isn't the same as professing membership of a religion.





Sometimes you just have to tell them to drop after whacking'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:01 PM

There are a great many Christians and other religious people who DO believe in the modern theory of evolution.

Yup, and they believe in the theory of gravity as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 04:08 PM

That is 100% certain. Kind of like believing that water flows and that pigs don't fly, right, Greg? Gee, it's nice to find a few things we can actually agree about....regardless of who is saying them. Try that sometime (looking beyond the name of the poster to the content of the post). It would require giving up your usual petty personal hatreds and feuds, but I think you should try it anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 05:52 PM

Interesting, Steve, that you grew up (I assume) in the Catholic church community, while I grew up in an atheistic, household. It could, to some extent, account for what things tend to push our buttons, couldn't it?

No it couldn't, and I must have been over all that at least a dozen times. The trouble with you is that you love to construct everything in your head to fit your rather fixed view. To pigeonhole people. We are not all the same and we do not all fit the mould in which you appear to construct your somewhat simplistic view of humanity. On top of that, you are very patronising. Perhaps you're not quite as all-knowing as you seem to think you are.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:17 PM

Pete... you get most of your 'quotes' from Creation.com

http://creation.com/michael-ruse-evolution-is-a-religion

I have to tell you that Creation.com using "admits" in a headline does NOT make that a reasonable use of the word. Not only that, you could find almost any "admission" you wanted on almost any topic...from someone.

Dr. Gish, who Ruse quotes, is an unabashed creationist who "left The Upjohn Company to join the faculty at the newly established (1970) Christian Heritage College"...which later became the Institute for Creation Research.

http://creation.com/duane-gish

Pete... those guys are a minority within a minority. Relying on such 'admissions' is like asking a couple of cat lovers to judge a dog show.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,SJL
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 06:52 PM

Something to keep in mind when interpreting scripture:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pesher

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 13 - 09:57 PM

By the way...about the Ruse quote..

"Evolution is promulgated as an ideology, a secular religion—a full-fledged alternative to Christianity, with meaning and morality."

NO... it simply is not. Not by any reputable scientist working on evolutionary themes. Could there be a few idiots who claim that evolution has 'deep meaning' similar to religious ideas? Perhaps... but YOU don't judge Christians by those who promote atrocities in the name of Jesus... do you? "Kill a Commie for Christ" was an old joke...except a very few fools thought it made sense.

Think about it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket evolving slowly
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 03:24 AM

If you want irrefutable proof of the evidence for Darwin's theory, I heard it on the radio this morning.

A man in Australia has died during a pie eating contest.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 04:34 AM

""Could there be a few idiots who claim that evolution has 'deep meaning' similar to religious ideas? Perhaps... but YOU don't judge Christians by those who promote atrocities in the name of Jesus... do you? "Kill a Commie for Christ" was an old joke...except a very few fools thought it made sense.""

Spot on Bill, and by the same token, you don't judge Christianity by the utterances of Creationists.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 08:42 AM

Evolution, in the context of science, does indeed have a very deep meaning. It is quite possibly the biggest idea ever in biology. It explains the whole of life on earth in all its diversity, complexity and beauty. It goes a long way towards describing the origin of life. For all we know, it probably explains life wherever it arose in the universe. It's as good as that. But it is not a religion. Evolution's feet are rooted firmly on the ground among masses of solid evidence, not up in the sky or beyond, the domain of some inexplicable super-being running the show. On the other hand, evidence is the enemy of religious faith. The more evidence you have, the more shaky the foundations of faith become. That is why religion has felt threatened by science for thousands of years. Of course, even the most devout believers rather like the science and technology (all of it evidence-led, inconveniently) that makes the modern world what it is, so they try to find some accommodation with science ("I do believe in evolution but God kick-started it and runs it"). Actually, Richard Dawkins called evolution the greatest show on earth. And it doesn't even need a stage manager.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 11:02 AM

Steve, it's impossible to get along with or be understood by a person who is simply determined to take offense every time spoken to and to put the worst possible interpretation on something another person says to them, and that's how you react to anything I say to you. Why not consider the possibility that I'm trying to relate to you in a positive way...discuss things in a positive way...and simply exchange ideas...rather than assuming I'm patronizing you? You ascribe all kinds of dire motives to me that are not accurate. In doing so, you make the same error you accuse me of: assuming you know exactly what I am thinking.

You don't. Neither do I know what you're thinking...but I keep trying to find out...

Keep in mind that I also talk to about a hundred or so other people on this forum, and I don't have perfect recall of every single word we've ever said to each other in the past.

In any case, are you saying that your background with the Catholic religion has not in any way affected your present opinions or the things you react to? It doesn't seem very likely that would be the case. I've known a lot of Catholics or ex-Catholics, and there hasn't been one who wasn't very strongly affected by their family's religious background, and most of them have to a considerable extent rejected much of what they were taught...or left that religion entirely. Some have switched to other religions or philosophies. Some have rejected all forms of religion. Some have remained in the Catholic church. I doubt that any of them regards the Pope as infallible!

I was very strongly affected by being brought up in a materialistic, social-climbing, competitive, atheist, money-and-status-concerned family with absolutely NO spiritual outlook on life...and I ended up to a considerable extent rejecting much of the example they put in front of me...because it didn't make me (or them) the least bit happy or address the things I ended up really caring about.

I'm trying to communicate with you here. I am NOT attempting to patronize you, to prove that I am smarter than you or to have a fight with you about anything at all. I have nothing to convert you to, no belief I want you to adopt, I simply want to communicate. Period.

****

Evolution. A very interesting subject indeed. I already was reading about it with great interest when I was a small child, due to my parents having some neat science, geological history, and biology books around the house. My father and I went on fossil-hunting expeditions, and I was well aware that the fossils we found were probably millions of years old, and far predated the development of humanity on this planet...or of mammals, for that matter. The idea of evolution is no threat at all to more advanced forms of spiritual understanding...but it does seem to bother religious fundamentalists, all right, because it doesn't fit the mythical/allegorical stories they wish to take literally.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 01:14 PM

this post is for pete.

Darwinism? What about Aristotle? Adam Smith?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 01:49 PM

In any case, are you saying that your background with the Catholic religion has not in any way affected your present opinions or the things you react to? It doesn't seem very likely that would be the case. I've known a lot of Catholics or ex-Catholics, and there hasn't been one who wasn't very strongly affected by their family's religious background, and most of them have to a considerable extent rejected much of what they were taught

All manner of things in my background have affected my opinions on all kinds of things. You appear to wish to single out my Catholic upbringing, for reasons best known to yourself. Well I don't. It was benign on the whole and I gently slid away from it. You know, I've been over this many times before. Do continue to pigeonhole as is your wont. The first thing we need to do here on the interwebby thing when communicating in this single-stranded manner is to accept that we do not know each other well enough to go around pigeonholing or psychoanalysing. Taking the piss is fine, of course. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 05:44 PM

Ok bill- i agree that quotes can be found for most anything,and i confess that in that particular- ie the religious nature of darwinism,i only know of that one.but as steve challenged me to produce it,and it confirmed the dictionary 2nd definition ,i still consider it valid.
what i could provide are many quotes by evolutionists that admit that the theory is far from being proven.i have provided a number of them in the past,so i am not intending to repeat them all again.
meanwhile what i do get from the darwin devotees here [a pursuit or interest followed with great devotion- oxford dict] ,is a lot assurances that evolution is true.why is it true-because evolutionists say it is !!!!.of course you,s expand that to say that it has evidence in all fields. and why is that true?-because you say its true!.
sounds like sone sort of circular reasoning to me.
and calls for me to fall in with churchians who have compromised the clear teaching of the bible is certainly not on my radar.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:07 PM

That is a complete mis-statement of what circular reasoning is, Pete. I could go into detail, but YOU could Google it and read the details as well.

We DO accept the reasoning because of the evidence, just as YOU would accept evidence on many subjects... if they were not about topics which your fundamentalism decrees 'already decided'.

Plumbing, the depth of the ocean, the contents of canned vegetables... etc...you would accept experts data without arguing. Carbon dating of bones is not really different.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: frogprince
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 06:25 PM

Pete, to you the Bible is inerrant because the Bible says it is inerrant (Which is the same to you as saying that God says it is inerrant.

Leviticus prohibited the Jewish people from eating a specified list of creatures which were declared to be "unclean". Then we come to the New Testament story of a vision of a sheet full of all those creatures, with God's voice saying that everyone was free to eat them. The "dispensationalist" interpretation of that is that God was repealing an old law. The much more natural sense of the story is that God is saying, "I made these things clean, just as I made everything clean in the first place; there was no reason for you to think I told you not to eat them."

Leviticus insisted that people be stoned to death for any of a number of offences, including adultery. When a woman was brought before Jesus for committing adultery, he said "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". He was not saying "My Dad just gave me permission to change the rule on that" ; he was effectively saying, "You should be able to realize that that law was never morally defensible; my Dad would never really have dictated a law like that".

I'm sure anyone could come up with other New Testament passages which effectively say that various things in the Old Testament were misguided. If Jesus, and the writers of the New Testament, didn't regard the Old Testament as inerrant, why should you have to?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Jul 13 - 09:52 PM

what i could provide are many quotes by evolutionists that admit that the theory is far from being proven.

You do not understand what a theory is and you certainly don't understand the crass stupidity of talking about theories "being proven". You come here and proudly proclaim your ignorance, despite being told squarely by others how to avoid it.

meanwhile what i do get from the darwin devotees here

There are no "Darwin devotees" here, - There are sane people who view evidence objectively and reach their conclusions. Which is a damn sight more than you ever do. One fine day you will come on here and stop dissing honest scientific endeavour.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,Musket curious
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 03:09 AM

In the meantime back to the rapture.

I was informed yesterday that our local vicar has just retired.

Why would he bother if the rapture is due? Seems a bit pointless really.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Mr Happy
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:12 PM

Does anyone know if the Flintstones were creationists?

pete,

Might this information be on your all=answers website?

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:22 PM

bill- the contents of a can and the depth of an ocean are not the same as dating methods since the former are measurable in the present,but dating relates to the past,and as i understand it involves assumptions which are not verifiable.
and if they can get the date of rock formation of known age wrong,why should we trust the method for rocks of unknown age.
as to an exact definition and technical applications,i leave that to you.i deliberately said "some sort of..."precisely because i expected you to call me on it.   my point is that instead of some clear explanation that proves darwinism to be true,i am just assured it is true.which is just what i am accused of doing because i believe the bible.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: GUEST,pete from seven stars link
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 05:55 PM

oops-that should have read "...technical applications of circular reasoning"

frogprince- yes that is my presupposition,your presupposition is that darwinism is true,unless you can say why YOU know its true.
Jesus did use the bible as authoritative,and i believe ,though not perhaps spelt out,as inerrant. the OT laws applied to israel as a theocratic people,and as you allude to - that dispensation.
paul described the law as a schoolmaster AV,a pedagogue,an appointed guardian for a child.its purpose was instructive and for the time before Christ .
but even if you look at the example of the woman caught in adultery,you have to ask where the man was!
leviticus read "...they shall both be stoned.."
but as i am sure you know really,what is called dispensationalism is not a rescue package imposed on scripture to avoid apparent clashes between the testaments,but rather built on the teaching of scripture.
it is nice to have a little diversion into theology, but i may not have the time for too many diversional posts.
regards   pete.

Subject: RE: BS: Is the Rapture Underway???
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 20 Jul 13 - 09:40 PM

but dating relates to the past,and as i understand it involves assumptions which are not verifiable.

As you understand it? Well there's a laugh. Not once in all the posts you've ever posted have you shown even the merest glimmer of understanding about anything. Do tell us more about these unverifiable assumptions. If you "have time", of course.

You bone idle git.