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BS: Art ID Help?
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Subject: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 25 Dec 06 - 10:24 PM I am trying to identify a pen and ink that I recieved for Christmas. Photo of it here. We have determined that the period in it is probably Edwardian, it is probably of a 'bahnhof' or station. There are lots of horse drawn vehicles in front. Several kinds but don't ask me what kind. The words on the top of the building seem to say something like Fahar, possibly Franz Jozeph I or maybe Trans Lez....??? Date on the top of the building is 1808. It was framed by Gerhard Alter Framers in Mannheim, bus. started in 1925 but that isn't really much help. I've looked till I'm blind on Google Images. Does anyone know anything? What, where, who??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Peace Date: 25 Dec 06 - 11:02 PM Franz Joseph I wasn't born until 1830. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: katlaughing Date: 25 Dec 06 - 11:07 PM You might try posting it at Rick Steves' website. If anyone would know, he would and/or his viewers. Good luck! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 25 Dec 06 - 11:16 PM I found that out, Peace. It's probably a copy of the original, son found it at an antique store in Pueblo, CO. Matted and the paper backing is glued to the frame so I can't take it out to see if the sig is covered up or if there is any info on the back. Darn it. Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Cluin Date: 25 Dec 06 - 11:26 PM Hard to tell from the pic but it doesn't look like pen& ink. More like an engraving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Peace Date: 25 Dec 06 - 11:56 PM There are also two light poles with three 'bulbs' atop each. I don't know enough to guess whether they were gas-fired or electric. My guess would be electric. If it is electric, that would place the period of the drawing (that is, when the drawing was done) to after 1880 or so. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: mack/misophist Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:50 AM I think the lights are gas. Early electric street lights from central France to Russia usually exposed the bulbs and hung down to prevent rain from running into the socket. Something about the building is very familiar. Either it's fameous or there are 50 others like it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Stilly River Sage Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:57 AM If it is a lithograph taken from a book then visiting a dealer of old books might help narrow it down. But once the page is out of the book it becomes "art" and a lot of them won't do anything with it. I found this out recently when helping a friend try to identify a page from what is (it turns out) a rare and quite expensive book (if the book is intact). SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Peace Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:00 AM That makes more sense than my post. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:09 AM I'm guessing a bit, but the resemblence of the fountain in the background left to This one (in Vienna?) suggests that the building is the Vienna State Opera. Here A much larger image that looks like it might be gorgeous stalled repeatedly on me, but with your faster connection perhaps....: Large Image John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: GUEST,ragdall Date: 26 Dec 06 - 04:11 AM John, that is what I thought, too. It looks like the Opera house in Vienna, which would fit with Franz Josef. Sorcha, can you get better detail on the lettering on the building? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:12 AM See Postcard Depicting the Vienna State Opera House, circa 1900 by Austrian School. This picture, if one can believe the ca. 1900 attribution, indicates that Sorcha's picture was made before then, before the two equestrian statues were placed on the pedestals at the top front (or that her artist just didn't like drawing horses). A history of the opera house might give an indication of when those two statues were added, which would indicate at least a "latest date" for the original(?). About Vienna indicates "The Vienna State Opera was one of the first buildings to be built on the famous Ringstraße, between 1861 and 1869 in a neo-romantic style." That doesn't necessarily mean that the two equestrian statues were added by 1869, but it does look like, from the size of the pedestals, that they planned for something "of imposing size" there in the original construction. A slight "glitch" in the dating, REMEMBERING THE REBIRTH: Among the most prestigious opera houses in the world, the Vienna State Opera was destroyed by Allied bombs at the very end of World War II. Ten years later it was reconstructed on the original model of 1869. When it reopened on November 5, 1955 with Beethoven's Fidelio conducted by Karl Böhm, it became the symbol of cultural rebirth and the beginning of a new post-war era. This documentary brings together almost all of the main witnesses of the devastating event: Sena Jurinac, who was in the opera house at the moment of the explosion; Elisabeth Schwarzkopf, Wilma Lipp and Waldemar Kmentt, who saw the Staatsoper burning and who sang the first notes at the reopening gala ten years later; members of the orchestra and ballet, who recall the tragic moments of March 12, 1945, the reconstruction period and the early days of the new opera house. Sorcha's print certainly represents something pre-1945, but the history I've found thus far only deals with the rebuilding of the house. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: ragdall Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:18 AM There's a view similar to Sorcha's, here |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: ragdall Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:20 AM Sorcha, is it possible that the date is 1858? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 08:33 AM WOW! That has nailed the building. It is definitely the Vienna Opera. Explains the carrigaes, etc out front. I keep looking at the date..sure looks like a 0 to me. Don't see anyway it could be a 5. Now, maybe, who did it? This is intriguing! Thanks!!!! PS--Anybody know what IS engraved on the opera house??? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM Correction--what WAS engraved on it? I had a thought...1808 was when Napoleon was kicked out of Germany. Could it be that the date was put on as a commorative type thing? I can't find any good pics of the original building, just the reconstructed one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: artbrooks Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:24 AM Yes...JinK beat me to it. The uniform helmet on the dragoon is almost certainly Austrian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: katlaughing Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:50 AM I thought it looked like Vienna, but i was searching train stations only. Somewhere my brother has a slide of the opera house. If I can find it, I can read what it has engraved on it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 09:53 AM I will have to be an old one, kat. The new one looks like an ad of some sort in place of the engraving. I am hitting a dead end about the 1808. Is a puzzlement. Will try to take close up of the numbers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: freda underhill Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:04 AM My Austrian son-inlaw is here with my daughter - I'll ask him to have a look! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:20 AM The pic linked by ragdall at 26 Dec 06 - 05:18 AM is similar. The horseback heroes statues are present which puts that pic later(?) than Sorcha's. There are also rails for the horsedrawn trolleys which were not in hers. A different style of street lamps is shown. Ragdalls pic might be dated at least roughly based on years when the horsedrawn streetcars (on rails) were used at the opera house location. If that's of interest, the Vienna Streetcar Museum might be able to provide dates: "In the former Erdberg streetcar depot of the Vienna Transit System, more than 80 historical Vienna streetcars - from an 1871 horse-drawn trolley to the first of the semi-automatic trains of the 1950s - are on display on more than a mile of track." (There appears to be an address for the museum at that page, but I'd have to have a translator.) John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 10:26 AM Luigi Kasimer is the only person I can find who did an etching/lithograph of the Opera. Doesn't appear to be by him. Different view/angle. He was also born too late to do it without the horses. My angle is wrong to see if the Anchor Clock is there, but I'll bet not. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 11:08 AM OK, folks...this is really weird! We got out the mag. glass....the supposed 0 now looks like a REVERSED 6! Like the stone cutter got it backwards!! 1868 would fit with everything else....I'm going to get Font Master Bill D on this now..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bill D Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:01 PM well, to my eye it is simply an elaborate 0.... take a look at the images in this image search on the word "fraktur". In my collection of fonts, I have a number which are in the same family as that inscription, but none that I have seen (yet) that use that particular design for the numbers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:03 PM OK, Bill. Thanks. Oh, and it could be that it was the engraver who got it backwards too. Seems more likely than the stone mason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: katlaughing Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM The slide will be from the 1960's, Sorcha, should be okay. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:09 PM Yes, almost looks like a serif but in the wrong place! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: artbrooks Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:10 PM Some views of the old opera house: this one or this. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bill D Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:14 PM The inscription says "Fuhrer Franz Joseph" but I have no idea what the date refers to....perhaps just the date of the carving. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:19 PM He wasn't even BORN in 08. He was born in 1830, so why his name with that early a date, unless it is commorating kicking Napoleon out, or a mistake somewhere? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: artbrooks Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:34 PM The Vienna Opera House was constructed between 1861 and 1869. It sits on the Ring Boulevard, one of Franz Joseph I's more reasonable achievements. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bill D Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM so...the 0/8 is an engraver's mistake? *shrug*.... My impression of the inscription in the scan of Sorcha's engraving is still '1808'... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:48 PM Me too! Sure LOOKS like 08. Sorry friends, but this is the kind of stuff that fascinates me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bill D Date: 26 Dec 06 - 12:55 PM If it was a dedication to THE Franz Joseph, then it may be that the engraver just scratched the wrong way making a '6' and didn't think anyone would even notice..*grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:02 PM So, perhaps now I need either an Art or Architecture Historian??? Or, a serious Opera House buff? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:15 PM for the Dummies....you CAN enlarge it in Flickr. At the bottom of the pic, to the right, it says see diff sizes....you can see the engraving easily if you choose Large. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bill D Date: 26 Dec 06 - 01:59 PM and, I took the 'large' view, and hit ++++++++ in my browser (Opera) and enlarged it a lot more...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Cluin Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:16 PM More here than meets the eye. A lot of Masonic and Templar and Cathar imagery hidden in the scene. I suspect a code work of sorts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM Franz Joseph claimed the title of "Emperor of Austria" from 1804 to 1835. The only "event" of 1808 that I've found was his marriage, on January 6, 1808, to another first cousin, Maria Ludovika of Austria-Este (December 14, 1787 – April 7, 1816) with no issue. She was the daughter of Archduke Ferdinand of Austria-Este and Maria Beatrice d'Este, Princess of Modena. (see Wikipedia) Commissioning of "grand projects" was sometimes a rite of celebration of such marriages, so it is possible that the Staatsoper was ordered to be built by Emporer Franz Joseph in 1808, although most sources say that the actual building of it took place between 1861 and 1869. For a building of this magnitude, that's not an uncommon delay between placing the order and getting the bricks. The architect was one Edouard van der Null, but I don't find much of anything about him except that he died in 1869, the year that the original opera house was reportedly completed. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:48 PM Now wait a minuite....I thought Franz Joseph wasn't born until 1830??? "With a handwritten letter to the Minister of the Interior dated 20 December 1857, the 27-year-old Emperor Franz Josef confirmed his already discussed decision to expand the city of Vienna and for the construction of public buildings." What gives here???? Cluin....euclidate about the Masonic/Templar stuff please? I am not seeing it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: catspaw49 Date: 26 Dec 06 - 02:49 PM "A lot of Masonic and Templar and Cathar imagery hidden in the scene. I suspect a code work of sorts."...........Cluin If you believe that, then I have just the thing to develop your conspiracy Theory!!!! ********************************************************************************************************** STEP RIGHT UP AND GET YOURS TODAY!!!Get the latest in CONSPIRACY THEORIES byCREATING YOUR VERY OWN!!!We provide everything you need in our kit. DOMESTIC CONSPIRACIES have three lists that you can mix and match! Choose from Religious Conspiracies, Governmental Conspiracies, or Business Conspiriacies. You can use any number within a list or mix and match between lists.EVEN BETTER...When you buy our DeLuxe Conspiracy Kits, you can mix and match with the other categories as well. You get INTERNATIONAL CONSPIRACIES (with 5 lists), SCIENTIFIC CONSPIRACIES (with 8 lists), and ECONOMIC CONSPIRACIES (with a whopping 14 lists). Order Today and get the new ETHNIC CONSPIRACIES (with 3 lists) ABSOLUTELY FREE!!!!!!!!!!!! When you have our kit, you are free to construct, by mixing and matching Categories and Lists, over 1,275,000 different theories!!!. PLUS IF YOU ORDER OUR PREMIUM UPDATABLE SOFTWARE PACKAGE YOU GET EVEN MORE!!!Not only are you assured of getting monthly updates (renewable each year for a low, low, fee) but you'll get every NEWLY DEVELOPED category or List at half price as they become available!!!BUT THERE'S EVEN MORE!!!!If you order today you get two invaluable tools to make your arguments secure, defendable, and completely unbreakable no matter how ridiculous your conspiracy might be. First, you get the "Faux Logic Creator" which can, with a few simple keystrokes, develop any argument, peppering it with key words and phrases to assure evryone of it's might and right while making no sense whatsoever. You also get the "Straw Man Synthesizer" which adds solid credibility to any argument no matter how stupid.ALL THIS CAN BE YOURS TODAY!!!!!by ordering with ONE YEAR SAME AS CASH ($1500. down and 10 Bucks a month) How can you pass it by? We offer a complete money back guarantee! If you're not satisfied, just return the unused portion of the kit and we'll return the unused portion of your money.GET YOURS TODAY FROM:Fuckyall Bullshit Associates |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM LOL, Spaw!!! Good one! But I'm still curious as to what Cluin sees. Crosses and circles? Quite common. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: JohnInKansas Date: 26 Dec 06 - 03:21 PM Wikipedia, at the link above, says: "Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor (German language: Franz II, Heiliger Römischer Kaiser) also referred to as Francis I, Emperor of Austria (February 12, 1768 – March 2, 1835) was the last Holy Roman Emperor, ruling from 1792 until August 6, 1806, when the Empire was disbanded. He then became Francis I, first Emperor of Austria (ruling from 1804 to 1835). "He was a son of Leopold II of Austria (1747 – 1792) and his wife Maria Luisa of Spain (1745 – 1792)." He had a number of children (by 4 wives), one of whom was Franz Karl (1802-1878) , whose son became Emperor Franz Joseph I of Austria. The "son" – whom I haven't looked up, possibly was born ca. 1830? I can't be sure from the pictures posted, but it could say "Emper." rather than Fuhrer? The date "1808" looks quite clear, but then ... The possibility that this was an engraving made from a photograph can't be ruled out. Daguerreotypes of this clarity and tonal range(?) were made ca. 1839, and other processes with better speed followed quickly, esp. up to the time when construction of the Staatsoper occured. Louis Daguerre's "The Louvre from the Left Bank of the Seine" from 1839 is well known and shows comparable detail. The problem with it being from a photo is that long exposures required by the early processes might have blurred people and animals; but it was apparently common enough to transfer the buildings and scenery more or less mechanically, omitting the blurs, and add the moving stuff "artistically" during the creation of the etching plates. Of course artists skilled enough to have done the original image in question in pen and ink are well enough known too. It's just a matter of "which one?". John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Bobert Date: 26 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM Well, as fir gettin' into what the image is, that's allready been covered very well but as for the medium... Cluin is most certainly correct in that it is probably an etching and I hate to burst anyone's bubble, especially if it's Sorcha's and she thinks that it's worth a bunch of money but it probably isn't... There were thousands of very good etchers in the 19th century and thousands of books containing thousands of etcheings as etchings were the way books were illustrated... This particular one most likely was cut from a book and not produced as a work of art but as an "illustration"... Sorry, but that's my opinion and though I could be wrong I not only have lots of old books filled with these kinds of illustrations but also have a B.A. in "Painting and Printmaking".... One thing fir sure, it ain't no Durer... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 04:51 PM giggle...no Bobert...I don't think it's worth a lot of money. I just would like to know more about it. The kind of Hunt I like to do. So, no bubbles burst here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Barry Finn Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:19 PM Hi Sorcha Another way you may be able to date your picture is by looking at the other pictures they all have a horse & rider over the entrance ways sitting atop of adorned block pedestal bases, yours has the horse & riders missing. Surley there's a waty to date those differences. At first I thought I was sure it my home in a past life but then I realized I was reborn just yesterday. Good Luck with dating this BArry |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Sorcha Date: 26 Dec 06 - 05:40 PM The horses were added in 1876, so it is before that. We have narrowed the date down to from May 25, 1869(opening date) to pre 1876. I'd also like to know who did the original if possible. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Cluin Date: 26 Dec 06 - 06:12 PM `Spaw got it. Like the Civil War "Thunderbird" corpse photo. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Date: 26 Dec 06 - 06:12 PM OPERA HOUSE 1806 makes good sense. Theatre has been important to Vienna and the year 1806 is significant there was a State Theatre House before the Opera House. GOOD - Another floundering "founder of BS"- to florish with a tune and history.
Words by Haschka
Haschka Hymn Gott erhalte Franz, den Kaiser,
God keep Francis the emperor,
First performed February 12, 1797 for the birthday of the emperor in all Viennese theatres. �The Emperor's Hymn' would become as familiar as the theme of the German national anthem, which was to become one of his most popular tunes.
Haschka Hymn
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heiliges_R%C3%B6misches_Reich_Deutscher_Nation Holy Roman Realm (Heiliges R�misches Reich) was the official name for the rule range of the Roman-German emperors from the Middle Ages (962) to the year 1806. The Holy Roman Realm of the German nation expired on 6 August 1806 with the resignation of the realm-crown by emperor Franz II, Duke of Austria. (He was briefly a "double emporer" Franz II of Germany AND emporer Franz the First of Austria - 1804-1806) he continued on as Emporer of Austria) - In otherwords Napoleon caused the resignation of Germany's emperor on August 06, 1806 and ended the Holy Roman realm...however Franz continued in 1806 to be emperor of Austria...you might say that Austria gained a FULL TIME emporer in 1806 and Hofburg has been the home.
It is a delightful twisted history - even richer than those of France and England. Because of references in the Bible's - Daniel - It was believed that The Holy Roman Realm MUST NOT expire since this would hasten the anit-Christ's kingdom (Napoleon?/Third Reich?)
RE: your engraving - like tracing royal lineage let us follow theatres in Vienna. Lots of pictures since you don't like to read: STATE OPERA HOUSE "Wiener Staatsoper" - 1863 - to current
PEOPLE'S OPERA HOUSE - "Volksoper" - "Kaiserjubil�ums-Stadttheater" 1898-current.
THEATRE ON THE WEIN "Theater an der Wien" 1798 - CURRENT
What a history of performances.
What are your engravings dimensions - that will give an indication of the process (stone or steel) and if it may be from a book. Be careful, ASTONDING reproductions are now available, especially behind glass, and delightful papers including stretchable canvas. A Cannon iPF9000 just came out 5 foot by 40 foot possible. The price on twelve colors just dropped dramaticly this month. I will invest within the next year in a 5000.
As long as you enjoy - why ask? Typical of Americans many things have no value to them until they are "Road Show" or "E-Bay" priced.
Sincerely, |
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Subject: RE: BS: Art ID Help? From: Cluin Date: 26 Dec 06 - 06:27 PM Antiques Road Show, here we come! |
