Origins: A Willy Question!

Subject: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: GUEST,Ptarmigan
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 10:56 AM

I spotted this observation on another forum & just wondered if there was any truth in it

Quote:
"In Appalachian ballads, 'Willy' seems to be a popular name among murderers."

So where do all the 'Willy Murderers' come from?

I wonder, were they all English originally?

Surely Irish, Scots & Welsh Ballads would be far more likely to use another name for their hero or villain, wouldn't they?

Also, wouldn't home grown Appalachian Ballads be more likely to use a more American sounding name for their hero or villain?

I'm wondering too if Willy was more often the hero, rather than the villain?

Cheers
Dick

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:01 AM

Perhaps Elisha Maddox III didn't scan as well as Willy.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: the lemonade lady
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:08 AM

Willy did a lot of sailing too. Didn't 'alf get abaaaat!

Willy Taylor - as sung by Rika Ruebsaat
Willy Taylor brisk young sailor
Full of fun and full of glee
Up to church they went together
Dressed in silk so rich and gay


Oh the vows, oh the breezes
Vows and breezes fade away


Birds were singing, bells were ringing
Up to church they went with glee
In marched four and twenty sailors
Pressed young Willy off to sea

-------------------------------------

Pops up here too

Sal

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:14 AM

Willy in the title and guest name of Dick, sounds like a wind up to me, or am I too cynical :-)

I'll get me Sausage

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:23 AM

Also, wouldn't home grown Appalachian Ballads be more likely to use a more American sounding name for their hero or villain?
-Ptarmigan


I'm not trying to be argumentative, but doesn't Ptarmigan's question depend on what people think are "American sounding" [male] names? Wouldn't it depend on the region of the United States {I'm assuming that by "America" you mean the United States}, and the centuries, if not decades, not to mention other variables such as race and ethnicity, and probably also economic class.

Perhaps my question about Ptarmigan's musical question belongs in the BS section and not above the line, but maybe it belongs right here in this thread. Maybe my question is just rhetorical. On second thought, nope, it's not. I guess I really am in a semi-argumentative mood today, and wonder what folks think are real American names.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:26 AM

The Villan,

Oh.

Okay. I guess he got me if this is a wind up {I suppose "wind up" means something presented to spark an argument or fight}.

But this thread might still be interesting "wind up" or not.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:31 AM

A wind up in the Uk can also mean a joke.

We get so many Guest threads, and its difficult to know if they are serious or not at times.

I took the question to be about the male organ :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: GUEST,Betsy at Work
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

Willy is short for, and rhymes better than John Thomas

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:37 AM

Cory, Tyler, Clint, Brandon, Travis, Wilbur, Cody, Jesse, Kelsey, Alyssa, anything double barreled like Beth-Anne, Mary-Jane, Betty-Lou. All of those are more American in usage, and don't appear much in the UK.
Although the main girls names like Brittany, Chelsea/Chelsey, Ashley, and Courtney, are just as common both sides of the ditch.

G


I am but the ghost of your Willie-O

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Kevin Sheils
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:41 AM

Not quite sure why Ptarmigan thinks Willy is an English name.

It is very commonly found all over Ireland and Scotland, either as Willy, Willie or William. I don't know enough about Wales!

I think that he is confused because because there was a certain German chap of that name who is probabaly not too popular in parts of Ireland himself, but that fact doesn't make the name unpopular.

And he tends to be called Billy anyway!

Or maybe the Villan's first thought is correct.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:45 AM

Kaiser Wilhelm aka Kaiser Bill.


G

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:45 AM

Look up the old thread Why so many Willies? for many responses (even a few serious)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: GUEST,TJ in San Diego
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:46 AM

I have often pondered the conundrum which faced the producers of the movie "Free Willy" when they faced marketing it in the U.K. Did it, in fact, retain its original title? The mere fact that it dealt with a "whale" might clearly have exacerbated the "English Effect." Ta, ta....

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 11:56 AM

William is from the Norman language is a cognate from the German Wilhelm, and of Germanic origin: wil = "will or desire"; helm;"helmet, protection";[1] thus the Old German name Wilhelm and the Old Norse name Vilhjálmr have the same roots. The Belgian name "Guildhelm" means "harnessed with a gilded helmet".

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:23 PM

Some of these observations might exactly answer the question. In the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, some of the basic populations in many parts of the US were English, Scots-Irish, and German. (Indeed, German was so widely spoken in the eighteenth century that there was an attempt to translate government documents into German in 1795, prompting the country's first "official language" debate. It was still so widely spoken in the twentieth century that a major TV personality--Lawrence Welk--had a strong German accent, despite having been raised entirely in the American Midwest.) All of these groups used Willie or Willy sometimes as the diminutive of a common name. So it was indeed a good possibility for a "regular American" name for over 200 years.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:46 PM

Azizi:folkie American murderers have very American names. eg Stackolee, Dupree, Billy the Kid, Pretty Boy Floyd, Leadbelly, Bad Lee Brown. Mind you, the exception proves the rule: I know a very mild and inoffensive English fiddler called John Hardy, from Audlem in Cheshire.
One thing is undeniably true: whatever their names are, most murderers do have willies.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:47 PM

Thursday 24th of this month (April) Maidenhead Folk Club has another Willie Night !! Songs of , for , and about Willie in whatever guise you can find Him .

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: pavane
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:48 PM

I am sure that's Willy Important

But seriously, it was a very common name. (Gwillam in Wales, I think)

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Acorn4
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:52 PM

Also, in most Americana the chosen method of dispatch seems to be by drowning, "Banks of the Ohio", "Omie Wise" - why not more variety?

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:53 PM

Oor Wullie in Scotland. He's a national institution.

G.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 12:54 PM

Water and Willys go together.

G

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 01:47 PM

Maybe I should note that I was guessing that wind up might mean argument. I'd never heard that phrase before I read it being used on Mudcat. Maybe it doesn't mean argument at all, and only means "joke".

Also, I didn't know that "willie" in slang terms meant the same thing as "Dick', and "Peter" until I read it on Mudcat. I also had never heard any "Willie" rhymes until I read them on Mudcat. So that means I still haven't "heard" them...

As to greg stephens' point that those nicknames and double names and nicknames are quintessentially American-yeah, I agree. Needless to say, I think a lot of this is because of the heavy influence of African American culture. Not to get heavy duty, but the belief in the power of a person's name was held throughout much of ancient Africa, including Egypt. My position is that to a large extent this accounts for the custom among African Americans and other people in the African Diaspora of having at least one nickname, and often multiple nicknames throughout our lives, and sometimes having more than one nickname at the same time.

And, in the true Mudcat spirit of shameless self-promotion, I'll take this opportunity to post a link to my webpages on the origins and meanings of selected "non-standard" American personal names & micknames:
http://cocojams.com/names.htm

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Artful Codger
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 02:30 PM

Sounds like a song challenge: Cruel Williewaterside

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:00 PM

Azizi,
I think you'll find that that name business isn't specificaly or particularly Afro-American. It also used to be that one's christian name was used seldom, the surname or a nickname being prefered!
Another aspect is that unusual names make songs more interesting. Anyway, what do you say about Steeleye Span? Purely English, unless I'm very much mistaken..

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:08 PM

W#ell, Azizi, you may well be right about lots of nicknames in African American culture, but it's pretty standard in white England as well. I went through school virtually never being addressed by my given name(or variants thereof), being called Tich at one school, and Stepney or Chimp at the other. I have also been variously called Gregory(my actual Christian name, though never used except by one grandmother and occasional ironic friends), Gregor(the name with which I was brought up in family), Greg(now what nearly everybody calls me), also G, little G, big G(because I am not), Greggers and Gweejil. Also, briefly, Gerg.So I dread to think how many names I might have had if I was black.It was confusing ewnough as it was.
My first name, by the way, is Donald. But nobody calls me that. And nobody, as far as I can recall, has ever called me Willie(or Willy).

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Nerd
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:11 PM

Acorn 4,

Not so. In The Knoxville Girl he beats her with a stick, in Tom Dooley and in Pretty Polly he stabs her, in Little Sadie he shoots her, in some he uses a whip, etc.

However, drowning does have several advantages. One, it could happen by accident, so if you found a person drowned it wouldn't necessarily be foul play. Two, the person doesn't bleed, so there won't be pesky bloodstains to explain. Three, if you pick a swift river the person could be carried far from the spot where the drowning occurred, further confusing the facts of the case. This makes it a better method of murder than shooting, stabbing, or beating someone to death, especially in the days before CSI.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:22 PM

I have certainly noticed prejudice against Willies from many parts of the world.

from Scotland - 'Up and waur them a', Willie.' as sung by the Battlefield band. That's the one where they throw sour milk on the enemy.

Pretty Polly. 'A debt to the Devil Willie must pay, for killing Pretty Polly and running away.' Sometimes it seems to me that somebody must have written a manual on how to write a murder ballad. Step 1 was read up on a murder. Step 2 was change the villain's name to Willie.

'Railroad Bill, he never had a wife. Ain't no woman wants a railroad life.' Also doesn't want to be married to a bum. Turns out Railroad Bill's real name was Morris. How did they get Bill out of Morris?

'It was Willie, our darling Willie, what got drownded in the deep blue sea.' (What a wimp.)

'Tell old Bill when he leaves home to leave those downtown women alone.' (The fool!)

I believe that Johnny and Willie between them cover most of the men in folk songs. Johnny rhymes with 'bonny,' but Willie doesn't rhyme with anything, so that leaves Willies open to anything.

One exception - the Scottish ballad 'Willie's Lady,' in which Willie saves his bride from an evil spell. The world needs more like him.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:31 PM

Greg, perhaps ancient Britons and other peoples throughout the world had the same beliefs as Africans about the power of a person's true name, and that to avoid speaking and sharing that name, throughout the world, people had the custom of using one or more nicknames to refer to an individual.

But, on a less serious note, I had a uncle whose name was "Wilbur", and when we were young my sisters and I started calling him "Uncle Willie Dillie". That name was a lighthearted term of affection. We certainly didn't snicker when we said it as we didn't associate the name "Willie {Willy} with a man's sexual organ. And we didn't know any Appalachian ballads so we didn't associate the name "Willy" with any murderers.

I'm wondering-do people here agree with Ptarmigan's observation that Willy has been a common name for murderers in Appalachian ballads and other American songs?

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: GUEST,The Mole Catcher's unplugged Apprentice
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:36 PM

"Willy in the title and guest name of Dick, sounds like a wind up to me, or am I too cynical :-)"

Funnily enough I had the same reaction as soon as I saw the thread, and even after reading the whole thing, I still have that feeling.

Charlotte R

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:40 PM

I posted my latest comment before this one prior to reading leeneia's post that included examples of badman named Willy or Bill. Now as to Bill, I've known a number of males name Bill. But-it just so happens, I've known none in the Biblical sense of that word

:o} or :o(

as the case may be.

As to your question "Turns out Railroad Bill's real name was Morris. How did they get Bill out of Morris?", a person's nickname doesn't have to have anything whatsoever to do with his or her "real" name. As has been noted in this thread, rhyming's very important when it comes to composing songs. And there's many more words that rhyme with "Bill" than rhyme with "Willy" {silly; dilly; hilly, chilly, filly-what else?} and as to Morris, forget it.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:54 PM

Doris?

LTS

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:57 PM

I made the most of assorted willie jokes in the older thread but here I think a true American name is Bubba. We DO need to replace all those pathetic "Willie" songs with a real American sounding handle......and what is more American than Bubba?   

Think how great songs like Banks of the Ohio would be if it was Bubba and not Willie! Willie might crap out and not kill her but you can bet your dog's balls that Bubba would not just murder the sniveling bitch but indulge in some necrophilia to boot!

Songs, books, movies.......everything! The name works no matter of the race too. "Tell them Willie-Boy Is Here" sounds pretty wimpy whereas "Tell Them Bubba-Boy Is Here" has a nice kick-ass ring to it. Meet a Klansman named Willie and you're likely to tell him to fuck-off but if he's called "Big Bubba" you show some respect lest you find a burning cross up your ass.

Yeah.....You want American make it Bubba everytime!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Rasener
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 03:59 PM

I wonder what Wild Willy Barrett would have to say about this thread.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: catspaw49
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:05 PM

Who cares? But if he was named Bubba Barrett I might perk up and take notice!

Spaw

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Cool Beans
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:29 PM

Railroad Morris, Railroad Morris
He'd showed 'em all who's king of the forest...


Willie Night in Maidenhead??!!
Now THAT sounds like a wind up to my American ears.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:40 PM

C B - We have had (I THINK ) at least three previous 'Willy' nights , and they have all been great fun with a VERY wide variety of varied materiel !

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 04:51 PM

That cat in those tv commercials has ruined the name Morris forever. Who's afraid of anyone named Morris?

{said snarkingly}

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:36 PM

Willies can be ghillies and they can be involved willy-nilly with fillies like Silly Milly or Frilly Tillie.

For obvious reasons William was a popular name in Norman England and post-1688 Protestant Britain. There can't have been many Catholic Willies in the last 300 years.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Artful Codger
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 06:52 PM

Sort of like Monty Python doing a skit about a society of murderers: "And this here's Willie, a specialist in asphyxia; and Willie, who's right handy with a knife; and over there's Willie, our man for defenestration--and you are...? Hm, Morris--do you mind if we call you Willie?"

Didn't Morris dancing ruin the name long before the cat? We've always considered it suspiciously gay-sounding, so of course we'd change the name, unless he killed her out of fashion envy.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: olddude
Date: 15 Apr 08 - 07:23 PM

They all had a dream about a future President named Willie

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Willie-O
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:47 AM

my ears are burning.

I became Willie-O specifically when I joined Mudcat, cause there were too many "Bill Initial"s here already. Had a nice folkie ring to it I thought, plus although I'm harmless I do have a morbid side.

I think that William has always been a common surname, and its various nicknames go in and out of fashion. I've been Bill all my life--and obviously so have most of my contemporary Williams. Can't abide being called William, but a few actually go by that name in everyday usage. (The only people who call me Willie are Mudcatters who met me online--Rick Fielding used to do this in conversation, which puzzled my non-Mudcat friends) My daughter at university tells me her generation has Williams but not Bills--they're generally Wills.

Willy, though, would have been a perfectly common 19th century name in the US or Canada--more so than Gaelic or Welsh variants of William.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: SINSULL
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 08:51 AM

Our Willie has gone forth to live in a tent...
Grafted Into The Army - Civil War Song

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:22 AM

I'm Henry the eighth I am
Henry the eighth I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before
And every one was an Henry (Henry)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (no Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Henry
Henry the eighth I am

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:38 AM

See what I mean? The prejudice is endemic.

As for nothing rhyming with Morris, it's true. However, many words rhyme with Moe. So, go, no, low, pimlico...

Spaw - get real. Nobody takes bubbas seriously.

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 09:42 AM

Morris rhymes with:

boris, chloris, chorus, dorice, doris, dorris, floris, horace, horus, laurice, loris, maurus, morice, moris, norris, orris, porous, sorice, sorus, taurus, torras, voris

3 syllables:
bos taurus, clitoris, delores, dolores, fitzmaurice, fitzmorris, greek chorus, in chorus, mcmorris, montgoris, slow loris, thesaurus, tortorice

4 syllables:
brontosaurus, genus chloris, genus loris, slender loris, stegosaurus

5 syllables:
maquiladoras, tyrannosaurus


Nah - it's all Willy envy...

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 10:06 AM

Willy Willy

G

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:33 AM

Ha Ha Ha It's simply amazing what you guys an' gals will 'waste' your time slabberin' about! :-)

But seriously, well done, you are all great sports.

I found your replies most entertaining.

Cheers
Dick

{ P.S. Just for the record ..... yes, my middle name is actually William! }

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Rasener
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:36 AM

I hope your surname isn't Head :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 11:49 AM

A professional singer once told me that he started a song with the verse:

"My Willy's fair,
My Willy's rare,
My Willy's wondrous bonny ..."

He didn't get much further!

Subject: RE: Origins: A Willy Question!
From: Marje
Date: 16 Apr 08 - 12:53 PM

I remember a girl singer once starting rather tentatively on the song that begins,
"My Willie sails on board the tender..."
It's one of those "Lover's Ghost" songs, and when she got to the lines, "And there she spied her Willie standing/ His two pale cheeks as white as snow" ...the singer cracked up completely and had to abandon what is in fact a very lovely song.

The Irish version of the name, by the way, is Liam.

Marje