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Robert Flemming, inventor of the guitar?
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Subject: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: PoppaGator Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:10 PM Well, it Black History Month here in the States, and this year is a very historical year indeed in Black American history. Yesterday, I was in my local Walgreen's drugstore and saw a display of Black History T-shirts. One displayed a long list of Black inventors and their creations. Now, I am sure that there have been many African-American geniuses who made important contributions to the modern world of technology, and that many have been uncredited or underappreciated; curiosity got the best of me, so I took a close look at all the fine-print silkscreened onto this shirt. One entry caught my eye: someone named Robert F. Flemming Jr. supposedly "invented the guitar" back in the 1880s, on a particular date in March. Now, you and I know that the guitar existed long before 1880, and probably had its origins in Spain. And the date given for Mr. Flemming's accomplishment is to early for him to have invented the electric guitar. When I got home, I did a Google search, but couldn't find any satisfactory answer. I found and read through at least 20-25 places on the web where people were asking the same question as me, and a couple of very brief mentions asserting what I had seen on the T-shirt but with no clarifying details. I found NO real answers. There is no Wikipedia entry, either, by the way. Since a particular date is listed for this man's "invention," I think it's reasonable to conclude that he was granted a patent on that date, for some special kind of guitar, or part of a guitar, or something. But who knows what? Anybody? Anybody? |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Don Firth Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:58 PM A bit taken aback by this claim, I did some googling, and the best I was able to come up with was that there are a whole bunch of people asking who Robert F. Flemming, Jr. was and how did he come to invent the guitar, or what was it about the guitar that he invented. Speculation about maybe the electric guitar, but was electricity sufficiently available in 1880 to make an electric guitar even feasible? I don't think so. Edison was patenting a lot of stuff about that time, but how many houses were actually wired? Besides, wasn't the electric guitar invented by one Adolph Rickenbacker in the 1930s, with its popularity being given a great boost by Les Paul, with his development of the solid-body electric in the early 1940s and his and Mary Ford's subsequent recordings in the 40s and 50s? This claim requires a lot of detailed substantiation. Some members of various groups, both political and ethnic, like to make the claim that a member of their particular group invented or discovered a whole variety of things first, but because they were an oppressed minority, they were shunted aside and someone else took credit for it. This sorry penchant can verge on the downright silly when it flies in the face of solidly established history. I knew a young black man at the university who, as the civil rights movement gathered steam, grew increasingly militant, and as time went on, he began to distanced himself from reality. I was in solid sympathy with his cause, but his revisionism started me worrying about him. On one occasion, while having coffee with him in a restaurant near campus, he went off on a toot, explaining to me how "the white man," who writes the history, tries to erase the greatness and the accomplishments of other races, especially his. His history lesson to me included, among many other things, his taking issue with the movie Cleopatra, with Elizabeth Taylor in the title role. "Cleopatra," he informed me, "as everyone knows, was a black African ." (She was not; she was Greek.) And, he informed me that Beethoven was black. "You can tell by his features." Really? I knew better than to argue with him. I just sat there, saying "Hmm!" and "Really!? I didn't know that!" a lot. What, I wonder, was that instrument that Fernando Sor, (1778 – 1839) was playing and for which he wrote so much music? And where did the painter Vermeer get his ideas? The Guitar Player (circa 1672). This sad bit of revisionism is certainly not limited to any particular group. This penchant was spoofed in a couple of episodes of Star Trek, TOS, when Ensign Chekov claimed that something had been invented by Russians, drawing a raised eyebrow or two from other crew members. That's a really extraordinary list. I was particularly fascinated to learn that a W. A. Lavallette invented the printing press. Eat your heart out, Johannes Gutenberg (1398–1468)!! Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Darowyn Date: 07 Feb 09 - 04:43 AM Interesting that the electric guitar was invented in 1880. I picture the unfortunate inventor wandering forlornly around, with the lead in his hand, looking for something to plug it into--- for twenty six years! Lee DeForest invented the valve (tube) that allowed anyone to design an amplifier, so any claims of electric instruments prior to 1906 are a little shaky. Paul Tutmarc has a reasonable claim to have the earliest electric guitar, and electric bass- though clearly there were many people working on the problem in the early 1930s. If it is any consolation to the African American history advocates, the person who showed everyone how to use an electric guitar was the great Charlie Christian, who was black, for sure. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Melissa Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:26 AM He appears to have been given a patent for a guitar design--March 3, 1886. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:00 AM |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: kendall Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:27 AM Even that upstart, Martin, goes back to 1833 |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: PoppaGator Date: 07 Feb 09 - 09:29 AM Don ~ You said exactly what I would have said, in greater detail. You apparently found the same stuff I did when you tried to Google(all questions, no answers). I didn't know about Rickenbacker, by the way; I did know about Leo Fender and Les Paul as major electric-guitar developers, but they both came after Charley Christian. (Maybe even after T-Bone Walker, too, for that matter.) Melissa ~ Your single sentence is the only real information I've yet found. Can you elaborate, or tell us where you found the info so we learn more? |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Feb 09 - 02:13 PM Why I waste my time on this stuff, I don't know. But I was curious to see if Robert F. Flemming, Jr., had actually developed some variation or adjunct to the guitar that could be considered noteworthy. The best I could come up with was 1. A repetition of the list with expressions of pride and admonitions about how much the world owed to multitudes of black inventors; 2. Angry but factless attempts to refute the list, posted by folks who were pretty obviously in a white-supremacist bag; and 3. The most reasonable, posted by people who identified themselves as black, who said that this list is absolutely ridiculous, and that those who insist on repeating it during Black History Month undercuts the validity of Black History Month and gives ammunition to racists. On one forum, a black man felt sufficiently incensed by the silliness of the list and what it did to the cause of credibility that he did a fairly monumental amount of work taking each claimed invention and writing a brief history of how it really came about. Unfortunately, whatever Robert F. Flemming, Jr., may or may not have done regarding the guitar was not included, but the poster certainly made his point. HERE. Scroll down to "Lurker" and his "Black Invention Myths" post. As to the guitar, I am perfectly willing to give Flemming credit for anything he may have added to the guitar that was useful or advantageous, but the claim that he "invented" it is patently (pun intended) ridiculous. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: kendall Date: 07 Feb 09 - 02:24 PM In schools they still teach that Columbus discovered America even though he was 500 years too late.In fact, he never set foot on the North American continent. Remember the story of George Washington and the Cherry tree? Total rubbish. Abe Lincoln walked many miles to return 3 cents to a woman he over charged? He read by the light of the fire place? Have you ever tried that? The most popular book of all time is full of myths and morality tales. We love our legends and myths. We also love to make heroes out of bums.Billy the kid was a homicidal moron. Wyatt Earp was a womanizer, a gambler and all around trouble maker.(He never actually killed anyone before the OK corral rumble. John Wayne (Marion Morrison) spent his adult life pretending to be someone else, as did Ronald Reagan. No wonder Diogenes gave up. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Bee-dubya-ell Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:45 PM Here's one of the lists in question: CLICK The problem appears to be that it's mainly a list of patents, which are usually enhancements to or variations upon pre-existing inventions, not the literal inventions themselves. Mr. Flemming apparently patented a variation upon the guitar, but the only description given on the list is "guitar". Apparently, Mr. Flemming invented a guitar (apparently one that was sufficiently different from pre-existing guitars to merit a patent), but some moron got hold of the list and misinterpreted it to mean Mr. Flemming invented the guitar. According to the list, a W.A. Deitz received a patent for a shoe on April 30, 1867. I don't think anyone would interpret that to mean Mr. Deitz invented the shoe, only that he received a patent for something shoe related. Everyone knows that shoes were around long before 1867. That someone would think Mr Flemming invented the guitar just indicates that he or she doesn't know squat about guitars and doesn't know how to do a bit of simple research. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Melissa Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:53 PM PoppaGator: I'll try to see if I can find the links I ran across last night. I intended to put more than one sentence..but that was the most concise way I could think of to say "I was looking at this and clicked on some damn thing that tried to start downloading something I didn't want..and it wouldn't stop no matter how many times I hit 'cancel' so I'm going to give a date before I forget and close this machine down" I might be able to find it again--looked like maybe I had found a nest of partial (yet uninformative) tidbits but I didn't get them all looked at before getting hacked off and shutting down for the night. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Melissa Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:25 PM from: http://www.elsegundousd.com/eshs/be04-05/aafcont.htm "The Guitar- Many of us love rockin' out on guitars, but very few of us know its origin. Although the invention of the guitar dates back to ancient times, Robert F. Flemming, Jr. helped to modernize it and was the first man to patent it. This was done on March 3, 1886." ****** It looks like the patent number is 338727 |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:53 PM A bit like all those people who have had a go at copyrighting traditional songs. Is it too late to get a [patent on the wheel? ....................... I>"He read by the light of the fire place? Have you ever tried that?" Yes, and I suspect most kids who grew up in the 1940s in Europe did as well. It might require more concentration than reading by electric light or candle light, but concentration is quite a good thing when reading. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:54 PM A bit like all those people who have had a go at copyrighting traditional songs. Is it too late to get a patent on the wheel? ....................... "He read by the light of the fire place? Have you ever tried that?" Yes, and I suspect most kids who grew up in the 1940s in Europe did as well. It might require more concentration than reading by electric light or candle light, but concentration is quite a good thing when reading. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Feb 09 - 09:36 PM Maybe he invented the whine Hawaiian guitar? Or the steel guitar? Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 07 Feb 09 - 09:37 PM That was supposed to be a strikeout, not an underline. mea culpa. Dave Oesterreich |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Don Firth Date: 07 Feb 09 - 10:28 PM Okay, folks, here it is! Patent No. 338727 The only thing I can figure out from the drawings and the text (which, admittedly, I haven't gone over with a fine-toothed comb yet) is that this is a cross between a banjo and a guitar. The text speaks of the head being made of "vellum," which, these days, usually means a kind of fine quality paper, but in times past was treated and cured animal skin. The word is from Old French and literally means "calf skin." I may be way off base, but what tends to support my theory is that there appear to be the sort of hooks (what do you call them?) that hold the rim of a banjo all around the periphery of the guitar body. Dinner time for me right now, so I'm giving it up for now for others to examine. But I don't think Mr. Flemming's apparent guitar-banjo hybrid caught on. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Melissa Date: 07 Feb 09 - 10:41 PM ...and the date is March 30, 1886--not 3/3. Thanks, Don. I couldn't find the patent info when I was looking and I had almost decided that I wanted to see what the thing was like. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Darowyn Date: 08 Feb 09 - 05:33 AM That's interesting. It looks like an early form of resonator guitar, using banjo technology, and it fits in well with the many pre-electric attempts to make a louder guitar, the most renowned attempt being the Dopyera brothers' "Dobro" in the early 1920s. Ignoring Dave Oesterreich's intervention (is it possible to have a thread on here without denigrating someone else's preferred genre of music?) It is possible that Mr Flemming would have been intending his invention to be played in slide style, but at that time the slide influence would have been from African sources. There are many suggestions of African derived folk instruments being played with knife handles and such. Hawaiian slide, according to legend, originates with Joseph Kekuku about ten years later, in the mid 1890s, when he slid a railway spike along the strings of a guitar donated by Portugese cattle men. It would be a big contribution to understanding the origins of slide guitar in Blues if evidence could be found as to how Flemming's guitar was played, assuming that the evidence pointed in that direction. Sadly, it does not seem to do so. The Nut is shown as low, which inplies finger fretting. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: pdq Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:29 AM One of this lists linked to (above) credits the invention of the "Super Soaker" to one Lonnie Johnson. The great guitar player, Lonnie Johnson??? When I here the term "super soaker" I automatically think of a politician. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Darowyn Date: 08 Feb 09 - 11:59 AM I thought it was the Uzi of water pistols! Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: bald headed step child Date: 08 Feb 09 - 12:02 PM Not the same Lonnie Johnson. super soaker He did seem to do for squirt guns what the other did for guitar playing in the 30's though. BHSC |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: pdq Date: 08 Feb 09 - 01:57 PM It does get a bit silly...her are some more famous inventions by Black folks {copied in order} : : curtain rod S. R. Scratton November 30, 1889 : : curtain rod support William S. Grant August 4, 1896 : : door knob O. Dorsey December 10, 1878 : : door stop O. Dorsey December 10, 1878 : : dust pan Lawrence P. Ray August 3, 1897 : : egg beater Willie Johnson February 5, 1884 : : electric lampbulb Lewis Latimer March 21, 1882 Heck, everybody knows who invented everything... The Russians! |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: wyrdolafr Date: 08 Feb 09 - 02:34 PM My favourite thing on the 'littleafrica.com' list is that H.A. Jackson invented the kitchen table. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: PoppaGator Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:09 PM It's too bad there are so many of these spurious claims, because there are some truly important little-known stories of African-American innovators and inventors. One of the most poignant involves the black doctor who had the idea for blood transfusions. Before him, I believe, medical science only knew to transfuse blood directly from one person to another ~ this man's contribution was the basis of the whole modern-day system of blood banks, blood donation, etc. This doctor was in an auto accident is a southern state (North Carolina, if I'm not mistaken) and bled to death because he was not admitted to the nearby "whites-only" hospital, which was equipped to give blood and save the life of such a victim. He died en route to the more distant black hospital. Sorry I don't have the name and other details, and don't have the time to do the research. However, I'm quite confident that this is a true story and not an "urban legend" ~ I've heard it more than once, from reputable sources. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: wyrdolafr Date: 08 Feb 09 - 03:52 PM Poppagator, blood banks and transfusions are touched-on in one of the sites linked to above. The following Link was posted on one of those sites. This matches everything I've seen so far about the transfusions and blood banks. If you were thinking of Dr. Drew, then I think it's a more a case of improving or advancing what existed previously regarding the storage of plasma. No small feat in itself, but different from coming up with or developing the actual concept. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: M.Ted Date: 08 Feb 09 - 06:29 PM It seems that the story, which has circulated widely, is not true--according to Dr. John Ford, one of the passengers in Drew's car, "We all received the very best of care...The doctors started treating us immediately." Drew didn't receive a transfusion because his injuries wouldn't permit it. "He had a superior vena caval syndrome--blood was blocked getting back to his heart from his brain and upper extremities," Ford said. "To give him a transfusion would have killed him sooner. Even the most heroic efforts couldn't have saved him. I can truthfully say that no efforts were spared in the treatment of Dr. Drew, and, contrary to popular myth, the fact that he was a Negro did not in any way limit the care that was given to him." Straight Dope on the death of Dr. Drew |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: PoppaGator Date: 08 Feb 09 - 09:28 PM You guys are better than Snopes... |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: M.Ted Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:02 PM If Snopes had come up in Google, I would have linked to it;-) |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Melissa Date: 08 Feb 09 - 10:15 PM I didn't quite understand the thing sticking out the bottom of Flemming's guitar. How did it work? (there is a LOT more information on this thread than I saw on any of the sites I visited looking for tidbits!) |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Darowyn Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:10 AM Like I mentioned earlier, this was a resonator guitar, but instead of using a loudspeaker style cone like the dobro, the idea was to increase volume by fitting a further set of strings inside the body. The extension of the tailpiece that looks like another tuning head, is another tuning head to tune the internal strings. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: wyrdolafr Date: 09 Feb 09 - 07:26 AM Darowyn wrote: "Like I mentioned earlier, this was a resonator guitar, but instead of using a loudspeaker style cone like the dobro, the idea was to increase volume by fitting a further set of strings inside the body. The extension of the tailpiece that looks like another tuning head, is another tuning head to tune the internal strings". Depending on how close the strings were to the head itself, wouldn't this be similar to a snare drum? |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Darowyn Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:43 AM The resonating strings look on the diagram to run about half an inch away from the back of the guitar body, so I don't think it was a snare drum rattle that he was going for- more of a Sitar-like sustained sound. Cheers Dave |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Feb 09 - 10:47 AM Does it work? |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM Was there ever more than the patent diagrams and/or model? Many 'inventions' never got any further than that as they either were impractical or better equivalents already were out there. Useless or hare-brained patents outnumber good ones thousands to one. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 09 Feb 09 - 11:08 AM The Patent Office presumably thought that it would, but you'd have to build one to find out how well it worked. I expect that Flemming made or commissioned prototypes, but I doubt if the invention was ever manufactured commercially. Even given the fashion for novel musical instruments at that time, it's unlikely that many potential backers would have thought there was a market big enough to justify investment: it looks to have been rather too ingenious. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Feb 09 - 12:35 PM Looking at his parent specification I see that what he patented was in fact "an instrument which I term 'the Euphonica'". "Guitar" is a bit misleading. Unfortunately, though googling "Euphonica" comes up with a lot of hits, they don't seem to have anything to do with the instrument. Maybe someone will get round to making one some time... |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Don Firth Date: 09 Feb 09 - 01:20 PM In my first post way above, I linked to a forum on the matter of black inventors, calling particular attention to a post by "Lurker," a black man, who refuted some of the spurious listings and gave a thumbnail sketch of how the invention really came about. He drew a flurry of rather vicious criticism from others who took issue with him, saying that, by contesting validity of the list, he was denigrating his own race. He responded to this posts as follows: It is posts like this that make me cringe. Blacks are the only race of people who want to be something else. We straighten our hair, bleach and whiten our skin, colour it blonde, and chase the beauty ideal of the white.I'd say that Lurker has made a pretty good point. Races, ethnic groups, or nationalities don't invent things. People do. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: GUEST Date: 17 Feb 09 - 04:12 PM DOES ANYONE KNOW WHERE I CAN FIND INFO. ON ROBERT FLEMMINGS JR.? MY DAUGHTER CHOSE TO WRITE A BIOGRAPHY ON HIM FOR SCHOOL, SINCE SHE PLAYS THE GUITAR HERSELF. ANY INFO WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED SINCE I AM COmming up short on info myself....thanks! valletribe@comcast.net |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: GUEST,victorie lozier Date: 17 Feb 09 - 08:44 PM i need to know the biography of robert flamming and how he can came with this invention ,yet the information about their family. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Don Firth Date: 17 Feb 09 - 09:58 PM GUEST, I believe if you will read the information in the posts above, you will see why there is little information to be found about Robert F. Flemming Jr. He did not actually invent the guitar. The guitar has been around in one form or another for at least 5,000 years. No one person can claim to have invented the guitar. Flemming did invent a variation on the guitar, and he patented it. I have posted the information and a link to the papers and drawings that Flemming submitted to the patent office above. You will find it at above, 07 Feb 09 - 10:28 p.m. Just click on the patent number. I did a fairly exhaustive search of the internet, and other than many unsubstantiated claims that said only that he "invented the guitar," I found nothing, so I checked the U. S. Patent Office and that's what I found. He did not invent the guitar. He invented a variation on the guitar that never became popular. Sorry, but I'm afraid that's all there is. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: dick greenhaus Date: 17 Feb 09 - 10:58 PM Before the electric guitar, we had the steam guitar....and one powered by overhead belts. Back in the days of silent radio, |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Don Firth Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:24 AM The best I can figure about Flemmings' guitar design is that it appears to be the love-child from a ménage a trois between an actual guitar (the shape), a banjo (the "vellum" head replacing the soundboard), and an Indian sitar or possibly a Norwegian Hardanger fiddle (the sympathetic strings). Flemmings didn't even call it a "guitar." He called it a "euphonica." I can only imagine the sound. . . . Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Melissa Date: 18 Feb 09 - 12:30 AM Guests: I also did quite a bit of searching..didn't turn up anything other than what can be found within this thread (which is more concerned with the "invented guitar" notion than information about the man himself) Ah..silent radio. Those were the days... |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: GUEST,cloudohana Date: 24 Feb 09 - 05:51 PM My son has to write a report on Osbourn Dorsey, the "inventor" of the door stop, and "improver" of the door knob. The most that I can find is his name, the patent #, and date on the "lists". Not even enough info for the Kindergarden report. Does anyone know anymore? |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: Melissa Date: 24 Feb 09 - 06:34 PM with the patent number, you might be able to find information on the 'invention' itself by going to the link for Flemming's patent above..and pegging in your numbers on the patent site. Good luck! |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: GUEST,pds5888 Date: 26 Apr 09 - 11:24 PM Well, there you have it folks. The white man has spoken. We can all go back to the fields now & keep picking cotton. There is no "Emancipation Proclamation". It was just a myth, a legend. We's still slaves. HYAH!! |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: M.Ted Date: 27 Apr 09 - 05:25 PM Sorry if the facts don't tell the story that you want. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: GUEST,AALDS (African American Designers&Luthiers S Date: 08 Dec 09 - 12:27 AM Robert Fleming didn't invent the GUITAR but, he invented THE guitar namely his KIND of guitar. The facts is such, he didn't have backers or investors because he was a BLACK MAN. Not one black man in the 1800 as and inventor have ever received a fair Loan or investment for his concepts. In fact when the white man wanted something back then ..he took it. The next thing that one must note, the BANJO an African invention was very popular for minstrel’s shows in those times. The sad fact of the matter was Fleming awesome concept was in competitions with his native invention of the Banjo. Of course there were no percentage or trust funds set up for Black inventors back then as black men were consider by our judicial systems as animal. So there wasn’t any TRUST-FUNDS set up to help Black inventors. Fleming also had competitions with Christian Martin Guitars.. and again more than likely white men had the money to support the business of there choice and 99 percent of the times it was there on Race. I am not a bias person but, here are some strong facts on Mr. Fleming inventions and life. |
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Subject: RE: Rbt Flemming, inventor of the guitar? From: GUEST,Songbob Date: 08 Dec 09 - 01:40 PM AALDS needs to read what was quoted from "Lurker" above. As for blacks and invention-funding, some got it and some didn't, some inventions were trivial, some were great, some caught on, some didn't, and many were stolen by richer or less-honest people. And the race of any of the people in those categories was not the issue. Did blacks get robbed of their ideas? Yes. Did ALL blacks get robbed of their ideas? Hell, no. And AALDS has Fleming's "awesome awesome concept [ ] in competitions (sic) with his native invention of the Banjo." I'm assuming that AALDS means the banjo was an invention of Fleming's race, not he himself, for if the latter were true, Fleming would have been something like 250 years old, given the earliest mention of banjos (banshaw/bango/etc.) among Africans in the New World. And, given the description of Fleming's invention, I doubt it was even an "awesome concept." The latter half of the 19th century was a time of great commercial innovation, and instruments combining concepts such as guitar fingering plus banjo heads (or banjo-anythings, really -- mandolin, ukes [later], guitar, or [who knows?] violini) were rife. Heck, if Fleming had met the Marx Brothers (no, the makers of the ukelin, Hawaiian Tremeloa, Marxophone, etc., not the comedy act), he might even have gotten financing. Was the late 19th Century hard on blacks? Yes, for sure. The end of Reconstruction brought on the Ku Klux Klan, Jim-Crow laws, "Coon" songs, and black flight to Northern cities were all part of that period. But to assume that all black inventors had no chance is to ignore evidence to the contrary, as well as to ignore the fact that Fleming's "improvements" to the guitar were not so very "improving." It is not necessary to find a conspiracy when simple facts of commercial life will suffice to explain Mr. Fleming's commercial failure. And trust-funds for inventors weren't even there for white inventors. That development in commercial product financing didn't come till probably the 1960s (if then). I don't know why I got carried away, but I did. So sue me. Bob |
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