BS: Cursive writing outdated?

Subject: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Wesley S
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:20 AM

Imagine my suprise when I came across an elementary principal in a magazine article that proposed that learning cursive writing was a waste of time and shouldn't be taught in the schools. After all - in the age of computers who uses it anymore? And that the approximately 12 weeks spent on teaching kids this skill could be better used to teach reading skills.

If they DO stop teaching cursive writing - why not adding and subtracting? After all that's why we have calculators. The same goes for geography. We all have GPS systems - right?

I'd be interested to hear if any of you feel that cursive writing is not a necessary skill anymore.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:54 AM

Necessary? Obviously not. To convey information, we need only a common alphabet and rules for organizing it.

Value? It is pretty when done well....(NOT when *I* do it..)

I once saw an elderly gentleman set up at a table in a Mall, using a fancy pen, doing elaborate calligraphy for graduation announcements, invitations...etc.
It is a matter of aesthetics, and I suspect there will all be a few who enjoy being ABLE to 'write'......but doggone it, there is no backspace or cut & paste when you have an ink pen in hand!

(Now there ARE hundreds of fonts available for computer of various handwriting forms...but that is hardly the same as being able to make your hand do it on command)

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:57 AM

Oh...for math and geography, there are times when it is a real advantage to have 'some' ability to deal with computing bills or reading maps...but even I 'print' rather than use cursive on many of my penciled notes, simply because they are easier to read.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Becca72
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:07 PM

Personally, 90% of what I write is done in cursive. It flows better. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:16 PM

Until one has achieved a fairly high degree of skill with a keyboard, cursive writing is faster and does not impede the thought process.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Amos
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM

There is a host of important side-effects to learning to communicate through handwriting, whether cursive or not. To drop it out of educational curricula is a really short-sighted and stupid idea. Writing one's thoughts by hand involves coordinating eye, mind, and hand AND the skill of communication. It is a key personal attribute, also, and is closely associated with one's social personality. To have this aspect of civilized self-hood reduced to a QWERTY keyboard is barbaric and bruital, IMHO.

My own handwriting is execrable as pure penmanshiup, but it has a certain flair. In a world where the handwritten signature is still the token of one's word, how the hell are these Borgs going to function? BAAAAD idea.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:27 PM

What's disappearing, and shouldn't, is the ability to write neatly and clearly, whether it's cursive or print. However little you write, it does make an impression on the reader.

~ Becky in Long Beach

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: mauvepink
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 12:50 PM

We should curse the day this comes into being... if it does.

Receiving a letter/card that is hand written is a joy these days. I know we have email and texts BUT I also think while some communication is quicker and easier, other forms - cursive writing included - are actually most attractive and always welcome.

Having some pride in your handwriting is a joy for most people, children and adults alike. Heaven forbid they stop teaching it...

or am I old-fashioned?

mp

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Bettynh
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 01:09 PM

I took Russian in high school and college. We had to learn a whole new alphabet. Actually, two new alphabets, since cursive Cyrillic was taught at the same time as the print alphabet. I don't really know why this was considered necessary (it was mid-sixties. Maybe they thought they were training spies and we needed to understand notes passed to us). Having to actually think about the handwritten letters made a big change in my English handwriting - for the better I think. We could use some new cursive fonts that are designed for today's writing tools. Most of the handwriting fonts were designed for pen and ink rather than the current roller balls.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 01:19 PM

IMO, the principal has his head where the sun don`t shine. However, very very few people are actually qualified to teach cursive writing. It isn`t just a matter of connecting the letters. There`s a 30 degree slant (lower left to upper right) and specific WAYS to form the letters. I would hazard that fewer than 5% of the Mudcat population know how to cursive write worth a shit, no offence.


I worked years ago for a principal who taught cursive writing. He incorporated poetry and songs, and when the kids got to as good as they`d get for that year they did beautifully written cards of thanks to family members. Wasye of time--I think not.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: mauvepink
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 02:03 PM

The rules for Cursive Writing


mp

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 02:41 PM

Being pre-computer age, I probably wrote miles of cursive script in school, from first grade through university. Without style, or form; the thought of the rules in the link by mauvepink make me cringe.
Like bettynh, I took Russian, and also German and French- ability to read the latter two being a requirement for an advanced degree.

Now I seldom write cursively; only the grocery list, post-it notes, and my signature.
Yes, time in school could be put to better use.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:18 PM

the thought process.

The THOUGHT process? Jaysus.

Forget it- thinking is obsolete. We now let machines do all our thinking for us.

Its amazing some of the arseholes who pass themselves off as "educators", but unfortunately, people listen to 'em.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: katlaughing
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:24 PM

Amos, I totally agree with you and I am sure my schoolteacher sisters would, too. I am sure the hand-eye coordination effects reading ability, etc. Anything instructive which engages a child in concentration and active movement, as in cursive writing, has a positive effect. My grandson, at almost 7 yrs old, can't wait to learn how to write cursive; he loves writing by hand even though he uses a computer everyday.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:33 PM

Joined-up writing goes well with joined-up thinking.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:42 PM

Maybe we should all just go back to using pictographs. Or forget written communication entirely.

Next we can get rid of spoken language; what the hell do we need THAT for as long as we can "keyboard" and tweet [twat?] and text message.

Orwell & Huxley would either be gratified or horrified.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 03:44 PM

Joined-up writing and joined-up thinking puts creativity in a cage.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 06:50 PM

I went thru nightmares in primary school - was dragged out in front of the class by the Deputy Principal to exhibit my 'chicken scratches' to the rest of the class and other assorted humiliations. I was kept back after school to practice - we used pen-nib and inkwells. In the quiet, I could do what passed as "he's trying" standard cursive - but next day - chicken scratches again!

At age 40 - I've previously told other tales about the circumstances, after some tests, I was diagnosed as having a micro motor disability since birth. In quietness I can copy neatly elaborate intricate patterns. The slightest noise or distraction sees loss of coordination. the verdict was that I was scavenging brain circuitry to do these tasks, and when these circuits are needed for their primary functions, the apparent precision declines rapidly - ungraceful degradation.

A little thought - and I note Bettynh's comment about needing new cursive fonts better suited to rolling ball and fine point markers, rather than pen nib and ink - led me to think about why 'printed' & cursive' fonts differ so much. If you are pressing a wedge into clay, or pushing a stick thru sand, the physical requirements are very different!

I will never be able to do good cursive (even though I love to look at it - even the Foolestroupe 'fonts' are all cursive on the few items like hats, etc I have done!), but it seems to work smoother, as you do not have to lift the writing implement between letters as much. From my martial arts 'mucking about' I learnt that smooth circular movements produce less physical stress on the body, and are actually faster than jerky interrupted movements. They probably produce less RSI effects thus too!

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:19 PM

I've never been able to write legibly with ball points and roller points. I mean I use them, because they are there, but no one can read my writing when I do. I was brought up using italic pens, with the point cut off, and they are the only ones where my writing looks better than a spider.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:53 PM

Other than my signature, I haven't used cursive writing since 1975. I had lovely cursive when I was able to take my time, but henscratch if I was in a hurry. I found that I could print almost as fast with much greater legibility. The only times I used cursive in school or college were when time was getting crunchy. Then it was "Okay, Professor Asshole, if you're only giving me 15 minutes to answer that question then try to read this!"

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 07:57 PM

want to type in cursive? ...many, many options.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: ragdall
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:20 PM

Along with learning the skill of writing cursive letters is learning the skill of reading cursive letters. Would schools continue to teach that skill or would existing cursive documents be understood only by a few scholars who made extra effort to learn the archaic script?

Imagine, children who managed through stealth to learn cursive writing could pass notes in school that might as well be in a foreign language, nobody else would be able to decipher them.

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:41 PM

We now let machines do all our thinking for us.

No, we now let other people do all our thinking for us, or at least most of us do.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: olddude
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 08:52 PM

How sad huh, nothing makes sense. Seems to me it is a big mistake.
however, when I was a kid, I would have welcomed not learning it. I had a grade school nun that would wack the crap out of your knuckles when it wasn't done right .. Ouch .. still feel the ruler on the back of my hand.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Rapparee
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:28 PM

The nuns in MY grade school would hang you up by the thumbs. As a result almost every boy in my class has thumbs 18 inches long.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 09:33 PM

I had a friend who went to Catholic school. This was still in the days of the inkpots. In his class he had one of the brothers, who would toss his inkpot at a miscreant when he got angry. He would leave school as the polka dot kid. To make it worse, his parents added punishment and said nothing against the brother.

I asked one of my daughters who has retired from teaching. They teach the kids here to write more or less legibly, starting with printing and then cursive, but don't insist on more than that.

Iin college most develop their own method of writing, part scrawl, part shorthand of their own devising, and lose legibility for anyone other than themselves. From about grade 5 on, they are using computers.

Lots of skills gone by the board- shorthand, making stone arrowheads-

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Janie
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 10:16 PM

I wonder what the research says about the learning matrix of fine motor skills, hand-eye coordination and cognitive development.

The utility of writing cursive as an adult or adolescent may be a different issue from the value of learning and practicing skills and cognitive development that may occur from the process of learning written expressive language skills.

My handwriting is illegible, and so is my son's. I'm glad I have a keyboard. In my work I use a keyboard as much as possible, but I still have to hand write a fair amount. I try to print when that occurs as it is important that others can read what I have written. In terms of cognitive development, fine motor skill development, and hand-eye coordination, however, it may well be there is significant value in the child learning to write cursive.

I remember virtually nothing of my trig. and calculus classes. But I do know that taking those classes developed my skills at problem solving and thinking through complex issues.

Learning cursive may or may not have comparable value for the cognitive development of a latency age child. I don't have enough information to have an informed opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: mousethief
Date: 31 Aug 10 - 11:02 PM

I haven't used my cursive either, which is a good thing because it's nearly illegible. Block printing works just fine for any writing I have to do (I took a drafting course so I learned the proper way to block print). The arguments here seem to focus on "but it's what you DO". Well, plenty of people don't, and get along just fine.

READING cursive, however, is essential for reasons given.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 04:14 AM

Considering the general demographic I'm pretty surprised at the amount of people here, who say they no-longer no-longer use (joined) handwriting. Does anyone here keep a diary or journal (in a notebook). What about daily jottings in note-books if your an amateur poet or writer of fiction? Or even (gasp!) hand-written letters?

As to the OP story, I'm generally against any innovations in education which increases dependency on (expensive) technology and decreases basic skills which enable independence and self-reliance - and indeed the capacity to teach oneself new skills.

They introduced calculators when I was at school, I believe that was detrimental to my grasp of basic maths and especially mental arithmetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:08 AM

When did people start talking about "cursive" instead of "joined-up"? I know it's the correct term, and has in fact probably been around longer - but it's never been used in normal speech in my experience.

When did you last hear anyone talking about "cursive thinking"?

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:10 AM

It's a bit like the way people increasingly seem to talk about "a capella" instead of "unaccompanied" when it come to singing.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: s&r
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:28 AM

I liked italic as a cursive style; tried unsuccessfully to write copperplate, and detested Marion Richardson's dull and formless script.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:29 AM

This thread is the first time I have ever heard cursive writing referred to as joined-up writing. Maybe a UK/USA difference?

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: GUEST,Janie
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:32 AM

Yup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cursive

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: s&r
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:48 AM

We always used cursive UK 1940's-1950's. My kids in the infant school only called it joined up writing.

Stu

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Becca72
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 09:16 AM

Same here, Janie. It's referred to as "cursive writing" around these parts.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 10:57 AM

My English teacher in my primary school was very strict on handwriting it had to be slanted and joined but clear and boy did he shout if it wasn't right. He scared me to death. In the beginning we had to use liquid ink from ink wells in the desk, it was awful to use and blotted your work if you weren't taking care with it. At first it was frowned on to use a ballpoint pen but accepted by the time I moved on to the (big) school. And then it had to be a good writing pen.

How things have changed I don't know if it is the same for anyone else in the UK or US but there doesn't seem to be the same standard of writing or spelling required as it was in the early 60's. My spelling isn't perfect but it concerns me when I hear of some young people leaving school without basic writing or reading skills when they get to school leaving age.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:15 PM

My own handwriting has deteriorated since I was in school. I seldom write anything but my signature. Occasionally I write notes to myself (I carry a small notebook everywhere I go.) or I take telephone messages for someone else. I guess I'm impatient ; I tend to write too fast, and I have to mentally tell myself : SLOW DOWN! When I slow down enough to make my cursive writing legible, it feels agonizingly slow. If I need to write a person's name, or an email address, I always PRINT.

I don't write letters, or long notes. I even send email to my own wife, if I have something important to tell her, and she's not home. I'm afraid I'll forget to tell her later.

Before I retired, I noticed that in business, handwriting is becoming less and less necessary. Occasionally I had to fill in a form, but forms always tell you to write in BLOCK LETTERS. (It's a good thing.)

Oddly enough, computerization has caused an INCREASE in the use of handwriting (or hand-printing) in one area : addressing envelopes. Back when people used typewriters, it was a simple matter to type an address onto an envelope. Now that we have switched to computers, people often hand-write addresses because they can't figure out how to feed an envelope into the printer!

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Amos
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:49 PM

Jim:

That's why God gave us Dymo printers that spit out printed address labels!


A

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 02:56 PM

I used the word 'cursive' because Wesley S, who started this thread did. I don't remember it being used when I was in school.
Never heard joined-up-writing either. It was always called handwriting or script.
My personal letters are computer-typed; like Jim Dixon only the envelope addresses are handwritten, but usually print, not script.

More and more talk and video are used in personal communication so emails are decreasing. No writing necessary! No proofing necessary!

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 06:00 PM

But handwriting needn't be cursive/joined-up.

Sometimes when people talk about "printing" in this context they mean using upper case (capital) letters, but sometimes they mean using lower case, but not joining the letters.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 07:41 PM

"When did you last hear anyone talking about "cursive thinking"?"


F**&!!

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:08 PM

I've been trying for years to get the schools to teach my kids penmanship, and the teachers refuse, saying the kids can always type if they have bad handwriting. I mean, really!

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Sep 10 - 08:10 PM

They allow typing in exams? Must get noisy.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: mousethief
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:00 AM

Silly McGrath. People don't type on typewriters anymore. They type on computer keyboards, which (since the demise of the early IBM keyboards) are fairly quiet.

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:43 AM

>people often hand-write addresses because they can't figure out how to feed an envelope into the printer!<

I still keep an old manual typewriter solely for that very purpose.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 12:46 AM

As a federal investigator, I took notes every day of my life for twenty-five years. Mostly, I printed my notes, because cursive writing gave me cramps. I don't know why, but cursive writing really hurt.
Now I've been using computers since 1988, and I write even less. Now I find it difficult to even write out a check in cursive - but printing still doesn't hurt much.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 01:56 AM

When I was in school, in the US in the 1950s, we first learned "printing" and then "writing." "Printing" meant the letters were not joined up (but we didn't use the term "joined up"). Even now, you hear people say "Please print your name" when they want to emphasize legibility. They aren't talking about using a printing press; they only mean "don't use cursive."

I suppose it was called "printing" because the letters resemble those you see in printed books; they aren't "joined up." Printing includes both upper case and lower case—but we didn't call them "upper case" and "lower case." I learned those terms much later. I think we called them "capital letters" and "small letters."

After we mastered "printing," we went on to "writing." That meant joined-up. I think we were introduced to the ball-point pen at about the same time, and we were given smoother, whiter paper to write on, unlike the pencils and "manila" paper we had used for "printing." "Manila" paper was coarser and brownish.

I think the word "cursive" came into vogue later. Nowadays kids and teachers in the US always use "cursive" to mean what we used to call "writing" and what Brits apparently call "joined-up writing."

I've been scanning through the fonts that came installed with my copy of Microsoft Word 2007 (or is it Windows Vista that supplied my fonts?), and the font that most closely resembles the way I was taught to "print" is called Century Gothic.

Here's what Century Gothic looks like (if you have it installed):

Aa Bb Cc Dd Ee Ff Gg Hh Ii Jj Kk Ll Mm Nn Oo Pp Qq Rr Ss Tt Uu Vv Ww Xx Yy Zz

I find it odd that there are two very different ways to make an "a" and two very different ways to make a "g." Compare Century Gothic to, say, Times Roman (to name a font that almost everybody has). That means we were being taught to "print" those two letters in a way that was very different from the way we typically saw them printed in books. I wonder how that situation came about?

By the way, I never used an inkwell in school, but I often sat at desks that had a round hole in the upper right corner. That hole, I was told, was designed to hold an inkwell. The older desks had dark stains around the hole,

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: ragdall
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 06:04 AM

Crow Sister,
I seldom use cursive writing, which has always been the term we used when there is a need to distinguish between it and "manuscript writing", aka printing. My handwriting never was great. Becoming old and arthritic hasn't improved it. If I send a letter to my aunt I print by hand or type it on the computer and print it out on my printer. Anyone else I need to communicate with remotely has an e-mail address.

Any notes I write to myself or in my journal are in printing as well. The only times I always use cursive is when I sign my name.

rags

Subject: RE: BS: Cursive writing outdated?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Sep 10 - 08:56 AM

Two ways to write a small "e" as well. Lots of people use the open "greek" form. Two ways for a small "r" as well, and a "d". And a few more similar.
............................

I hate to imagine a world in which people will be so accustomed to using machines to do their writing that they are as paralysed when they have to manage without, in the way some young people seem to be when there's no calculator to do the calculations.