BS: Kids & Festivals charging

Subject: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Hawker
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 04:36 PM

I've been thinking... (oh No I hear you all cry!)
When I go to a folk fesatival, I have to take my kids - I am not blessed with having a childminder to take my place when I am not there. Now knowing that this is the case, and it is ME who wants to go to the festival, not them, I wonder why I have to pay money for them to be there? I know that festivals need to cover their costs, but are we parents subsidising childless people so they can have cheaper tickets? You may think I am being picky, not at all, I am all for kids being involved at festivals, in fact, I run workshops for kids at Folk Festivals myself, In the UK here, I would not quibble at paying for a ticket at, say Bromyard or Wadebridge, where I know there is lots of workshops and fun things for them to do, but some festivals offer nothing for the children and still charge, then, even though you have paid for your child to be there, those without children scowl at you when your child speaks a little above a whisper! Am I alone in feeling a little cross? Should folk festivals all provide a kids programme? Should we not be trying to encourage participation of our youth rather than alienation to the darkest corner of the room with a threat of death if they breathe too loudly? My Kids sing, they dance, they are though, kids - and cannot stay quiet for more than 15 mins - need some stimulation. Should we be penalised for having kids to pass our traditions on to?
Off my soapbox! What do you think?
Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:16 PM

I'm with you Lucy. We have five children between us and it can be very expensive if we have to buy tickets for them especially if they intend to spend the whole weekend hiding in a tent playing with a gameboy! I am particularly annoyed when a childrens ticket is described as being for up to 14 years! Since when did they become adults at that point?? We tend to get our money's worth with Maddie as she enjoys the ceilidhs and concerts but as you say she is only 8 and cannot sit in silence for long!! Also she cannot go anywhere unaccompanied so is not always able to go to her first choice of venue. I favour the idea of allowing children to go free but charging for workshops and specific childrens events separately. That way you pay for what they want to do but are not penalised for having to take them with you when you want to do something else!!! Bearing in mind that having children often means you can't get to all the things you would like to this would hardly be a great financial loss to the organisers.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:21 PM

In the US, there's usually a reduced rate for kids under a certain age (such as 12), and often very young kids (under 5 or so) get in free. Is this not the case in the UK?

I agree with you that folk fests should provide a kids' program. But as for subsidizing childless people so they can have cheaper tickets (LOL!), consider it a trade-off since some of their tax money goes toward public-school education for other people's children (or is this not the case in the UK either?).

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Midchuck
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:24 PM

I don't know anything about your kids in particular. It is, however, a fact that more and more people bring their kids to more and more public functions, with less and less attempt to control them and less and less concern for how much they bother other people who are paying good money to be there, every year.

It is especially annoying when you're at a function which involves a performance of music, or anything else you want to listen to, and some kid wants to compete with the performers to make more noise, and the parent can't be bothered to suppress the little monster - or, in many cases, even knows how to.

Again, I know nothing about your kids or your customs with respect to controlling them. But I think the idea of charging admission is to discourage the bringing of children who don't really want to hear the music, or whatever. Makes it a better experience for everyone if they don't show up.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Hawker
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:28 PM

Mrs Duck, Five kids! wow! I couldn't afford festivals if I had to pay for that many! we have just 2 kids. I think that the children should go free and only pay for workshops, or, there should be a full childs programme if there is a childs season ticket. Yes, I had forgot that I often have to let Kevin go to what I would like to be at, or Kevin stays with the kids missing out, while I go, because we know we cannot take our children in, even though we have paid for them to be there! It's a bugger isn't it! Perhaps I shall take mine in in future if there are no kids things and I am made to pay, after all they (or rather Me & Kev) have paid for their right to be there, if the organisers complain perhaps I'll suggest they give us our moneys worth! If we all unite perhaps organisers will think - If they alienate us too much, they will lose our custom.....I could always organise my own festival! Oh no, I wish i didnt start thinking silly things....
Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:33 PM

Yes but it also means I can't afford to go to what I want to see or hear either even if I make arrangements for them to be minded during the weekend. I NEVER allow my children to intefere with the listening of music even if it means I have to leave but why should I pay for them if they are not going to be involved. As for tax money being used to pay for other kids schooling I'll mail you my 2p.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:37 PM

Do you know Lucy that could be a winner!! Let's get all the budding folkies together and give them what they want!!

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:46 PM

Mrs. Duck: LOL! No, no, keep your money; it's just one of my pet peeves that single folk are expected to pay to support their school district as part of their "community" but, if they were to attend a public meeting concerning education, their input would be less welcome than that of the parents (the "pay up and shut up" policy). Rant off! Sorry for the thread creep!

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Hawker
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 05:58 PM

Midchuck,
I hear what you are saying, and to a point agree,
I try and occupy them if I suspect they may find things a little tedious - my kids have a festival bag, in it is paper, pens, books etc, things to keep my kids quiet, and in the main, it works, many parents have complimented me on a) the good behaviour of my kids and b) the wonderful idea that keeps them so quiet. Perhaps festival organisers could have a box of pens and paper for kids to play with at venues.
As performers ourselves, our kids have been brought up to know that they have to keep quiet when people are performing, and in the main are good, I too have experienced being in a concert with the child from hell 2 rows in front and sympathise with what you are saying, but believe me, I really do think twice about taking my kids into a concert if I have not paid for them, paying for them makes me want to take them, otherwise, I am paying for them not to be there - and me not to be there either, because if they can't come in, neither can I! If a child ticket, for example, and I quote from a booking form, is Under 15 year olds and pensioners half price..... I am paying three times for not going to what the pensioner is paying once to really enjoy - now whats fair in that?

Sharon, prices differ from festival to festival, some have under 5s free, some, like Miskin last weekend, kids were free, some are half the price of adult tickets. There is no hard and fast rule.
And I really do feel like I am subsidising the childless, LOL if you like, I personally dont find it that funny!
I'm not trying to be antagonistic, just soapboxing again!

My eldest daughter is eleven, and because we have dragged her to festivals since birth, and she has a lovely singing voice, she is now singing traditional songs with us at singarounds etc, Our youngest is 7 and has been playing the fiddle for 14 months - her choice, not ours.
Its the 'Kids half price' one that got me, with not a single thing in the programme for kids - Hmmmmm.
Leaves a lot to be desired really!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:10 PM

Lucy (Hawker): Sorry; I thought you were joking. In all seriousness, I would guess that the kid-ticket money goes toward whatever insurance must be paid to cover the possibility that a child could be injured at the fest and to cover the possibility that a child could break away from his/her parents and cause some damage to sound equipment or instruments. But that's just my guess.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Hawker
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:17 PM

Sharon,
I'd love to think you were right! maybe I am just getting a bit cynical in my old age! I don't mind paying, I'd just like to get a little something for it! Just seemed a little unfair, hope I havent ranted too much! Going to bed now, just past midnight here, sweet dreams all,catch others views in the morning!
Perhaps we could organise a Mudcat Musical Youth thing.... At least adults would expect there to be kids there, and perhaps we could keep costs to a minimum!!! any thoughts?

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:18 PM

We have an 8 year old fiddle player Lucy. Perhaps we can leave them in a quiet room together!!! Our twins age 2 are veterans of the folkscene having attended their first singaround at the age of 4 days!! Unfortunately the folk world is largely (in UK at least) populated by single or older people whose children have grown up but if we want to attract families and people of child rearing age then something has to be done to encourage them. That means either putting on activities for children and charging accordingly or allowing them to come free so their parents will feel more inclined to turn up. If a child is spoiling an event for others I see no problem in asking the parent to take them out but if the parent has paid not only for themselves but the child then they are losing a lot of money and it may not be that the child is badly behaved just little!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: SharonA
Date: 04 Apr 02 - 06:39 PM

By the way, Lucy, I love your idea of a festival bag. I'd like to see festival organizers have not just a box of pens and paper, but a festival bag of stuff to hand out to younger kids who attend (with crayons and some kind of small, music-oriented coloring book – the story of "Puff the Magic Dragon" or some such – and stickers and other craft items such as an easy origami project). At least parents would get a small bonus for their money!

But really, there needs to be some place at the festival to take the kids to let them work off their energy with some dancing and singing!

At least, as you say, the music sometimes rubs off on the kids after all that exposure... in which case the kids are enjoying the music and you're getting what you've paid for!

As for the seniors (the pensioners), I'd say that the discount is mostly just an incentive to get them to come, since they're on a fixed income and might need a bargain to lure them out of the house at all (besides, if they're hard of hearing, they may only hear 50% of the lyrics anyway!). If it's any consolation, the pensioners who used to bring their kids to festivals have already paid that "three-times-as-much" price and they're being compensated for it now!

Question: if you become a festival volunteer, is child care provided along with free admission? If so, that might be an option for you to consider.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Alio
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:21 AM

Just thought I'd add a note from a festival organiser (no boo-ing please)i.e. Saddleworth. Our festival is probably one of the cheapest anyway (£22 for weekend ticket)but as we receive no funding at all, we do have to be a bit careful. We don;t charge for under 10's, and then 10 - 16's are half price. On the other hand, we feel that to make folk music sustainable in the future, you've got to to draw young people in, and that means putting on events / activities for them.So the events cover all the age groups - young musicians, young poet of the year, song and rhythm (have I spelt that right?) workshop, session with Geoff Higginbottom etc.. When the festival had been running for a couple of years, we did have a debate in one of the meetings, that we were charging young people, but putting very little on for them, so hopefully we've put that right. In the programme we do remind parents that young people are their responsibility even if they leave them in a workshop, so hopefully the message gets across! On a personal note, if you've got a fairly large family i.e. 5 children, I think the organisers should come to some kind of agreement with you! Ali

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Watson
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:38 AM

I can think of one festival - Burntwood - that doesn't charge for accompanied under 16s. They have children's entertainment as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:14 AM

As a festival organiser, a requestor of funds from the local authority and father of 5 I do tend to have a view or two on this subject...;-)

Dad hat on. Yes I like to go to folk festivals. Yes I did like to take the brood when they were younger (At least 2 take themselves and their partners now). No I didn't mind paying for them. Yes I did expect there to be something for the sprogs.

Organiser hat on. Spending an inordinate amout of time arrange a session that does not realy have anything to do with folk music. Parents turning up dumping their kids in a session and then getting pissed up. Not turning up to pick their kids up when the session is finished. Kids who are not in the slightest bit interested. Parents stamping and shouting because little Jimmy complained that he was bored.

Local council hat on. Does your festival do anything for underprvelidged? Do you provide childcare? Is there a registered childminder for every 4 children? Do you have full creche facilities? Are you insured to mind children? Do you mind if we investigate all your committee, their husbands, wives, children parents and pets to see if there are any known sex offenders?

Need I go on?

I always felt that my children were primarily my responsibility. If there was something for them to do at a festival all the better but if not they stayed with me. If they misbehaved, which fortunately was extremely rare, we left.

I believe, rightly or wrongly, that most festival organisers are just like me. We make no money out of it. It often costs us dear in terms of time and effort and often purse! We love to see people enjoying themselves and would realy love to please everyone but it is not always possible.

We now no longer have creche facilities at Swinton. We do not charge for under 16's. Adult tickets are usualy about £6 for a full day. We do expect people to keep their children under control. We do get ones who complain that there is nothing for the children to do. I usualy suggest that if the children do not like music and dance and the parents cannot be bothered looking after them the money may be better spent on a play station 2;-)

Sorry if I have offended anyone - there is no inferrence that any of the scenarios presented apply in any way, shape or form to any Mudcatter, living, dead or imaginary. Just my views...

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Watson
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 05:17 AM

Views shared by many, I suspect, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Hrothgar
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 07:17 AM

At the National Folk Festival in Canberra over Easter, weekend ticket prices were: Adult $A130; Youth (13-17) $A65; Child (5-12 years) $A21; under 5 no charge. Camping extra, but very reasonable.

The Children's Festival programme ran from 10.00 a.m. to 9.00 p.m., with many of the acts from the main festival involved. Child minding was also available. There might have been a limit of four hours for leaving kids unattended?

I don't pay all that much attention, because I don't have kids, but I have never heard any complaints about how that works, and I know that on a couple of occasions my sister has taken her kids (for a day) and they have loved it.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Jerry Rasmussen
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 09:21 AM

I was fortunate enough to run a folk festival for seven years at the Museum where I worked. We had an operating farm and a big Nature-themed children's playground, as well as a lake and plenty of area to run around and picnic. We charged half price for kids under 12, with kids under five admitted free. On top of all that there was to do on a normal day, we did music and art workshops for the kids, so they had a ball. If people wonder why the coming generations don't embrace folk music the way that we have, they're not even going to hear it if we price them out of the market (price their parents out of bringing them, and not even coming, themselves.)

Jerry

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 12:07 PM

Long geezer ramble (safely ignored)

My only experience is with the American old time music scene, specifically old time music festivals.

In my part of the states there are two distinct but slightly overlapping groups, old time musicians & folk musicians. For example, the former will be out in force at Clifftop WV. The latter make the annual pilgrimage to the Philadelphia Folk Festival. That is not to say there the two sets have no common members, but their intersection tends to be a very small subset of each group. Mudcat seems to cater more to the latter than the former. WHICH IS WONDERFUL. NO COMPLAINTS HERE.

First,
Kid-focused stuff at festivals is one GREAT IDEA. Cheap tickets is a second, but different, GREAT IDEA The two great ideas are not necessarily economically compatible.

but...

In the old days

Whether it was the Morris Brothers festival at Ivydale WV, or Galax, or the Brandywine Mountain Music Convention there were no activities aimed at kids.

We took our kids to old time festivals because we took our kids everywhere. The festivals were always cheap. They were always campground affairs and the basic pattern was to set up camp (in an army surplus tent, or under a parachute, or in a teepee, or a converted school bus, or whatever), start playing, and let the kids loose (not necessarily in that order) . The standing order was to report in for meals and be sure to show up when it was time to go home.

This laissez-faire approach was probably partly the result of the way we boomers were raised. Our parents didn't take the "hands on" approach to our lives that seems to be the norm today. They dragged out of bed, fed us, and made sure we got to school. They dragged us to church. Occasionally they forced us to take piano/violin/whatever lessons. But often that was about it. Most of the rest of the time we were left to our own devices. We ganged up, hung out, made up our own games, and skinned our knees with a minimum of adult supervision or involvement.

(Incidentaly, to us boomers, it is not clear to us that the long term results of such an approach are bad, but that's another discussion.)

Anyway
But it was also partly the result of the way we conceptualized festivals. It was not our intention that festivals be microcosms of the real world (even if they turned out to be so). We perceived of them as alternatives. A festival wasn't supposed to be all things to all people and age groups. It wasn't supposed to be a cheap bucolic substitute for DisneyUniverse. It was supposed to be as unlike the real world of the almighty dollar as possible.

Also, letting the kids hang out and do what kids normally while we did our own music thing was part of our general approach to life. Let a hundred flowers bloom, man. It was also part of a Rousseau-ian view of the world that was popular long ago and far away in one part of the 20th century.

Finally, this approach was partly due to economics. I was once a member of the board of directors of a group that produced an annual old time music festival (now defunct). Each year we would begin planning the next festival with two key questions. How much had we lost on the last festival? How much could we afford to lose on the next festival? If we couldn't get performers to do kid oriented stuff for free, it was a luxury we couldn't afford. And we did think of it as a luxury rather than a necessity (see preceding).

Anyway, sometime during the last decade things started changing at old time festivals. By now we were all driving big SUVs and camping in huge state of the art tent cities using gear that guaranteed survival in the cold of the Antarctic or the heat of the Gobi desert. We were playing custom-made instruments. Our kids weren't kids anymore. They were teenagers (the horror). We started bemoaning the fact it looked like old time music would die with our generation. The average age of festival goers slowly but inexorably increased and we didn't seem to be attracting young people. Our kids were piercing body parts we had never thought it was possible to pierce, much less desirable. They were listening to "music" that wasn't music and made no sense (Sound familir?). They weren't going to our festivals anymore because it was like so uncool.

But recent events suggest that our laissez-faire attitude might have worked in spite of us. At least as far as American old time music is concerned, the tidal wave has hit. Some of our kids must've been listening to the music while our backs were turned. Apparently some of them liked what they heard. Clifftop WV, for example, is now awash in extremely talented extremely young musicians who are light years ahead of where we were at that age.

First point If your favorite festival is being run by boomers, and things are not exactly to your liking, perhaps it is because their ideas about festivals (and kids) are significantly different from yours. It's a point I made in great detail a letter to Rod Stradling's Musical Traditions site.

Second point While kid-focused activities at festivals are a great idea for many reasons, they do not seem to be "necessary" for the survival of the music itself.

Third point If kids are going to "turn on" to the MUSIC it won't be because of Chuckles the Juggler or certified, standardized, sanitized, day care or face painting or an inflatable bouncing room (whatever they are called). It will be because they have the chance to come face to face with the "real thing" and they are touched by it (even if they don't realize it at the time).

My adult daughter, who five years did not want to be in the same room as an old time musician, is now a crackerjack fiddler. When asked what happened (went wrong?) she explains that she came back because she remembers how much fun the festivals were (even sans kid-stuff) and how many nice, intersting, cool "old guys" (and gals) she met.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Menita
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:22 PM

Are there any 14-16yr olds out there who would like to pass comment on this subject and suggest what they'd like to do at a folk festival? I have a sneaky feeling in the back of my mind that some would rather not be there.

LA

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: SharonA
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 04:39 PM

Lucy Ann: I suspect you might get a somewhat skewed response from the young teenagers, since only those who are interested in folk and blues music are likely to read this forum at all, and the question isn't being posted on the Linkin Park or Britney forums. :^)

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: X
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 08:08 PM

"Nyquil" treats for the kiddies.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 05 Apr 02 - 11:48 PM

Not quite a festival,but: When we ran a non-alcoholic St. Patrick's day type mini-celtic concert, we wanted to encourage people to bring families. We set up a single adult rate, lap-sized kids free (we were not outdoors, so seats are valuable real estate), half price for older kids and seniors; and, a family rate so families with more than two kids could bring them all with a blanket admission. We didn't have a place parents could park their kids, we pretty much expected them to supervise their own. No problems to speak of. Kids can't learn to behave at public performances if no one takes them in the first place (they should also be willing to take them out if they misbehave). This was not a weekend event, but just one night of two or so hours. One family called and asked about the family rate, turns out four adult children brought their parents. We didn't specify otherwise and didn't fuss about that either.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Apr 02 - 11:19 PM

The kiddies use the pottys, throw trash, make noise, and drive away full-price-paying adults with their prattling tongues.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 03:12 AM

Obvious that GUEST is a child hater.... So am I. But I'm a parent... so I have a reason to hate the little sods.

I'm quite distressed by the lack of tolerance towards the younger, less able to concentrate members of the folk scene, particularly from performers. This is your audience of the future here, you chuck them out, you chuck out their paying parents too, and they're going to think twice about coming back. And if you are a performer who was last seen on TV hosting a Folk Dance programme, then of course, the child who has watched you encourage people to dance on the telly, is going to want to dance when you play the tunes in a concert. The only way to get them used to sitting in quiet at concerts, is to take them to concerts, where they get thrown out.... Getting them used to sessions is more difficult as the majority are held in pubs where they don't allow children.....

Yes, I've taken my child out when she has become disruptive, but I've also wanted to take several "adults" with me... Why is it that these adults are not treated as pariahs as my child is?

My biggest bugbear for festivals is that the activities close at 4 and don't open again until the next day.... presumably so that the children go home, have tea, go to sleep.... doesn't help those whose hyperactive kids won't sleep till midnight if there is the slightest chance of something going on..... why there are no children's early evening activities? There's that dead zone between 5-7 after the day stuff and before the evening stuff, which could be used for a children's concert. Towersey is useful, it has a mini fairground (roundabout, bouncy castle) and a proper council playground on the main field, so at least I can entertain her for a while, but there are only so many stalls I can look round before she's off somewhere else. Perhaps as someone posted above, there should be full or semi sedation provided for children at festivals.

Dranouter festival, Belgium(1st weekend in August, 15k from Ypres) has the best child facilities I've ever seen at a festival. There was a whole area of the festival field set aside for them with an activity tent, dance/disco area, adventure playground/jungle gym, water play, resident entertainers, junk play, scrap model building, singing and story games (pity we don't speak Flemish that well, but baby gibberish is the same the world over), sand pit, food stall (not just sweets), chill out/quiet nap area, and other stuff we couldn't work out how to get into, not speaking the language well enough. The numbers, because of the size of the area, were unlimited, the crayons, paper, blankets, junk etc were provided, there was no charge other than display of your festival ticket and you could stay with your child, or leave them, and it DIDN'T SHUT AT 4.00pm! But them the continent have always treated children as human beings, rather than a seperate sub species.

We brought down the colour bar and racial segregation, let's see if we can do it for children!

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: selby
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 06:36 AM

Now for my biggest bug bear what about the Adults and or Artist's who continualy talk in concerts but the only people who get critisised are young people.I have in my opinion two youngsters who play folk music, dance to folk music, generaly are well into folk music, but has as happened often, ask a question in a concert at the wrong time and wow the world comes down. I think that moderation in all things is important but on this issue don't throw the baby out with the bath water, support the kids, who knows in the near future you might just be listening to them.They are after all folk music's future!! Keith

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 10:13 AM

Some contributors to this thread claim that if folk festivals don't cater to kids at some level in an effort to build a future audience, the audience for such festivals will disappear.

My rejoinder: My own experience indicates that this is false. For many years American old time music festivals did not have kid facilities or activities aimed at kids, but we took them to the festivals anyway. In spite of that lack our kids are now skilled, knowledgeable participants in the old time music scene.

As far as I can tell, if kids are going to get interested in the MUSIC it won't be because of Giggles the balloon man or the water slide or the electronic games tent. It'll be because of the music and the musicians. The more non-musical distractions you offer them, the less incentive to experience the music/musicians.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 01:36 PM

Russ, that's why I mentioned a children's concert in the 'dead zone'.... before bedtime but after the day's activities.

I know full well that festivals will happen with or without children, but as more and more folkies reproduce, but still want to continue doing the festival scene, then something has to give somewhere. Either better facilities (or in some cases just some facilities) for children, or more tolerance from audiences and performers alike.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 07 Apr 02 - 06:01 PM

Folk week in Whitby does have the early evening concerts and ceilidhs for families and they finish around 9pm. Curiously at that particular festival it's Geoff and I that don't buy tickets as it is the same acts year after year!

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Hawker
Date: 08 Apr 02 - 03:57 PM

Hi All,

Just returned from Crediton Folk Festival, who were charging half price for children (all children - incl under 5's). We decided to buy season tickets for me Kev, but decided to pay as we went for the kids..... well it turned out to be one kid 'cos a miracle happened! Mother in law offered to have the eldest for the night and bring her up on the Saturday! We took out 7 year old to the folk club, showed our tickets and were let in, Nobody asked for money for Amber and she sat right at the back at a table with the stewards, drwing and playing with the toys in her festival bag. The stewards complimented me on how well behaved she was. We then went to the singaround, not intending to stay long, but Amber hopped up onto a large window sill, where we wrapped her in a fleece and coat, and after singing her heart out for threequarters on an hour, she went to sleep. On the Saturday she came to the harmony workshop with me & Kev, in the church, run by Sarah Morgan, she did really well and was in no way disruptive. We then had soup served by members of the church - many of whom told me it was a joy to see such a well behaved child! I met Andy who ran Miskin and he told my kids that they MUST come to Miskin again! (Miskin do not charge for kids and they put on a lot for them - story telling, pace egging, egg and spoon race, bonnet making etc.) Tamsyn and Amber and me & Kev and his parents then went to a weird battle re encatment going on in the camping field, The kids had a whale of a time letting off steam and shouting at the warriors and cheering on the goodies, booing the baddies etc. We then had a ride on a horse and cart back to the camper van site (0.7 mile away) to let the dog out, cup of tea and bite to eat then we went to the Wilsons concert in the afternoon and Mother in law kept them for a little while, then they came & sat on our knees in the concert - quietly. Went out to got to the toilet, and came back in to ask me to go outside, apologies made to our neighbours, nobody seemed to mind. I went out to find that they had plotted with Mother in law to stay at her house again! So her and Grandad took them home at about 4 p.m.! I was beginning to wonder if she has logged onto Mudcat and see my moans! In the evening, we went to the Devon Dialect and song competition, Kev entered and won the dialect competition! it was time to let the dog go walkies so we walked back to the camper, then back to the concert in the Half Moon - just in time to see the Wilsons. What pissed me off there was that I had got rid of my kids for the evening and had hoped to be able to sit and listen to a concert in peace.... what happened was apalling! I was sat next to the partner of one of the Wilsons and she was annoyed too, the people at the bar - and there were several were all talking amongst themselves, there were NO children in the room that I saw, but the noise was deafening, I couldn't hear the Wilsons - who are not quiet by any means 'cos of the babble behind me! The stewards seemed oblivious! At one point somebody was particularly loud whilst one of the Wilsons was talking and he just looked out into the audience and said "There's a Pig in here!" The pig paid no attention, and the lady next to me cringed. I know that if that had been my kids, they would have been silenced immediately by the stewards! All in all, we had a great weekend, the festival was great, the kids enjoyed what of it they partook of, and perhaps if some of you didn't agree with my comments, God was listening and guided mother in law to help!!!!!! Seriously though the worst behaviour was NOT from the kids - mine or anybody elses!
Blimey, that was a bit long winded!
Off my soap box never to return!
Well, not for an hour or so!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 10:09 AM

Glad it all turned out, Lucy (well - nearly!)

I have not yet seen anyone address the point I was trying to make earlier. It is no good just having childrens entertainment. There has to be proper child care. This must, by law, be provided by either legal parents or guardians or by someone approved by the local authority to provide that service. Imagine the uproar if, heaven forbid, anything bad happened to a child while being entertained by a folk entertainer not equiped to deal with emergencies?

Proper child care means either having the parents present, which I guess defeats the object Lucy brought up in the first place, or paying for the service. And as all parents out there know professional child care ain't cheap!

As I said before we have resolved the issue by no longer providing the facility and for that I apologise to anyone who feels they are missing out. But faced with either that or a potential tragedy i know which one I would vote for.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: SharonA
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:21 AM

Lucy: Glad to hear things went so well! But what in the world is a dialect competition?

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: MMario
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 11:27 AM

Dave - how right you are! We have run up against this with staffing of the summer camp I am involved with. EVERY SINGLE ONE of our staff (paid or volunteer) who comes in contact with the kids (virtually all of them) has to take a four hour course. Annually. If we had kids younger then 10 it would be a three day course. Younger then 5 and it requires a two week course. I forget the requirements for infant care - but I believe it is something like a three month course.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: GUEST,Amy
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 12:44 PM

I am involved with California Traditional Music Society's Summer Solstice Folk Music, Dance, and Storytelling Festival. At our festival children under 12 are free. There is a student level for at-gate tickets. Also, teenagers (and adults) can be volunteers and get in for free. We are a participatory festival and have a specific children's festival inside the festival. The Children's Area had to be moved this year because we outgrew the space we had. Children may also participate in any of the workshops. We enjoy and encourage children at our festival. Lucy, you can check out our web site at www.ctmsfolkmusic.org for more information. Amy

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 12:53 PM

I've never used the children's facilities much at festivals - partly because I don't like to leave Hamm with anyone I don't actually know. Pretty much the mums-eye view of Dave The Gnome's point.
The only times I did use them were when Hamm's friend was attending a kiddie workshop & she wanted to go too.
I prefer to have her with us - ie I see the festival as a family experience (we usually operate as a unit rather than as parents and a child anyway). But then, I was lucky that she has always enjoyed the festivals & behaved well - also that there is only the one of her......
So, for us any charge for her attendance is perfectly valid as she is taking up a seat at concerts etc etc.
I can see that the price gets out of hand where you have more than one child - so I'd like to see more festivals where a blanket affordable "family" ticket price is available to cover any reasonable configuration of adults + kids.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 01:14 PM

HAWKER ASKED:

but are we parents subsidising childless people so they can have cheaper tickets?

I think not. You (and I, in the those years when I was in a similar position) are merely (as in most relations of life) paying the (sometimes indirect or delayed) costs of decisions you have made. You decided to have the kids. You decided to bring them to the festival, surely knowing there would be a cost for them to be there. If you want to view your higher cost as a subsidy, it is a subsidy you have decided it's worth while to provide.

Although you might point out that the kids didn't particularly ask to be there, nor do they (arguably, although I disagree) get a benefit from being there, the organizers' costs are definitely increased by the greater traffic, the sheer numbers of people--portable toilets, security, trash disposal, and so forth. And I think the organizers are entitled to assume that anyone who comes, including children, is there for the benefits of the activities provided.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Hawker
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 01:54 PM

Dave the Gnome,
I maybe should have adressed your issue! I run children's workshops, I am police checked and qualified to do so - and hav my own public liability should anything go wrong, I do stipulate that under 5s should be accompanied by parents, for my protection! Perhaps I think if I can go to the bother of doing it, so do other people - maybe I am the odd one out, I was surprised that organisers have such a problem, anybody wanting work would surely be happy to comply to safety requirements!
Uncle Dave O,
I guess you are right that I am paying for my own decision to have kids, I do take issue with your suggestion that I think they do not benefit from being there - on the contrary, I think they benefit immensely and not just on a musical level, but on a social level! I would always encourage our kids to go, and am happy to pay a fair price its just there seems no fairness, some offer nothing and charge the earth, others offer loads and dont charge, I suppose its the old You can't please all of the people all of the time!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: SharonA
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 02:30 PM

Still wondering what a dialect competition is. Enlighten me, please! I'm envisioning a panel of judges saying, "Sorry, contestant #2, but your Yorkshire colloquialisms aren't up to snuff. Next!"

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Hawker
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 07:57 PM

Well Sharon, you'd be almost right, except it was a DEVON dialect competition, see an you'd bedder be earin' me well, maid, when ah zays 'ee were proper Debn! (or something like that)
Basically, for a bit of fun, they ran a Best Devon song and Best Devon Dialect competitions, The song competition was won by a wonderful lady called Margaret (sorry don't know surname) who sang beauties such as 'When vather (father) 'n me stepped out' each contestant sang about five or six songs and talked a little in between - stories of their lives, jokes and banter with the ever barracking audience. It was excellent fun!
Be there next year, whatever your accent enter, it makes it much more fun!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Willie-O
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 08:35 PM

Geez, I think there are as many different versions of appropriate childrens facilities and policies as there are folk festivals in the world.

Which makes me treasure all the more our two local folk festivals, Blue Skies (in the deep Ontario woods) and Stewart Park (in a small-town park). Blue Skies is free for kids up to, um, 13 or so, not sure really, and Stewart Park is free for everyone. Basically parenting at a festival is the same as doing it anywhere else: if you can trust them to go off with their friends and check in when they're supposed to, there is no problem. Blue Skies has excellent child activity stuff, and you can position yourself on the hill such that you can see both the childrens' area and the main stage.

Dave tG, despite your experience and excellent points, I think your being a bit, well, anal. Kids gotta run sometimes. Parents are not wardens.

One thing I learned putting on small-hall folk concerts is that half-price tickets for youth age 18 and under is a great idea. Never got that many of them anyway, the ones that do come want to be there, and it helps put bums in seats to hear music which is what concerts are about.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 09 Apr 02 - 08:49 PM

I believe any festival for which anything is charged is not a festival but is infact an "anti-festival". No matter what you charge to get in you are keeping someone out. I owe my interest and love and participation in the folk to being able to attend music festivals for free whilst a student. I would not be here otherwise yet more often than not that priviledge is now lost for many who can not come in. It is a shock to realize how many we have lost through the greed of management companies and organizers.

And a word to the wise here. Never, ever , ever volunteer to help a festival unless you know where the money is going, how much money is taken in and why it has to be collected. A famous organizer of a virginia celtic festival is famous for saying "if it weren't for the volunteers we could not do it" truth is that if it wasnt for the volunteers he could not have a few trips to europe and a home in a wealthy suburb and an imported car....And of course musicians could not cross the country in airplanes and stay at hotels. So I said to a prominent musician you were here on saturday (yesterday) then why werent you at the festival meeting and greeting....Oh didnt you know all the musicians not playing that day were at the hotel in the pool.....This we dont need!

I like to believe that festivals should be just as barn raisings and covered dish dinners.

Everyone comes together and brings to the table what they have and we call it even.

Additionally no one is paid- they do it for love.

Furthermore- Everyone is of the folk and no one is professional. Yup- get a day job or stay away if you cant afford to be there (most people can afford to donate their time every so often full time is not necessary)

If you want to sell stuff while in the festival fine. If you trust your art it will sell if not then keep working on it.

As for toilets and food- simple- pack it in and pack it out. How many park service trails have toilets and food concessions yet they go on for miles!

What about all the technicians....Well we just ask them to be as dedicated to the music and the folk as everyone else. You bring what you have. If that skill is lighting and sound bring that.

Now that should solve your questions.

Lets have a lot fewer "anti festivals" and a lot more festivals where one can simply gather and share.

And furthermore....performers do not leave real festivals right after their performance nor do they stand behind fences eating special free donated food appart from others. Mr folkman to paraphrase Ronie Regan- tear down those walls.

Real festivals are about sharing, jamming, sessioning and have to have nothing at all to do with money.

If you need money go elsewhere. If you need songs and the tradition come on down. Take a look at this link for a bit more:the oral tradition link Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: GUEST,willie-o's daughter
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 12:18 AM

so yes. as my name indicates, i am the daughter of willie-o. i'm fifteen now, been going to folk festivals since i was...ummmm...tiny? yeah. folk festivals are very awesomey. i will be the first to admit i've caused more than my fair share of trouble at them in the past (hehe...and not so past....wheeeeeeeee...)

on the other hand, i also somehow magically grew up with an appreciation for good music. and an ability to amuse random strangers.

so yes. i think i'm going to bed now. goodnightses!

-emy

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: GUEST,Shazam
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 05:23 AM

Do any of the 'kids' out there know Jan's Blackboard Van? (UK only)She has this lorry painted with blackboard paint and the kids can paint and draw all over it. Inside it is filled with loads of things for the kids to do; circus stuff, games food for the imagination. Well she had it pranged and is looking for a new chasis and cab. If you go bcfolkweekend.co.uk (sorry don't know how to do the blue clicky thing) you'll find out what I'm talking about. If she doesn't get any help we won't see her this year at the festivals.

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 07:33 AM

I know what you are getting at Willie-O and am not taking offense here at all - but it ain't me being 'anal' (I presume you mean wanting to be in control rather than anything more messy;-)) As I said earlier I have 5 kids and they wandered all over the place without coming to much harm - as did me and Mrs G when we were youngsters.

The point I must make clear is that any festival organisers, certainly here in the UK, who provide creche facilities supervised by unqualified staff, will almost certainly be guilty of breaking some pretty major laws on child protection.

To do that would place the future of the festival at risk and we, for one, were not willing to take tht chance!

Hope that clears it up.

Cheers

Dave

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: *#1 PEASANT*
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 10:16 AM

artcar alert noted.

the person with the artcar blackboard problems should contact the artcar community via my email list [e-mail]

we are all over the world and many a car owner has been helped!!

My artcar epicenter- Click here

My artcar Pages click here

I will check out the web page mentioned. Yes a van or car or truck covered with blackboard is an artcar.

Conrad

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: SharonA
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 10:49 AM

Lucy: Thanks for the info about the dialect competition. Sounds like fun! Too bad that all I have is an 'Mercun accent (you know, as in the song: "Um proud to be an 'Mercun wherrit least ah know um free!")!

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 02:55 PM

I'm not going to make myself very popular,(AGAIN) but here goes anyway. They are your children and your responsibility, nobody forced you to have them. However, childless people are FORCED to pay more income tax, with no opting out, in much the same way as pacifists taxes go towards bombs etc. If you add up how much it costs the state to educate, and otherwise facilitate your childrens growing up, sewage disposal, rubbish disposal, street lighting, education etc. No family with more than 2 kids will ever pay enough tax to cover these costs. Festivals cost money, time and loads of effort to run, they are for the benefit of all who attend, and all who attend should pay something towards it. If a festival provides facilities for childrens wellbeing and entertainment the that too costs money. I don't even want to open the Child Benefit can of worms as that could go on for ever, I'm just saying don't expect other people to bear the burden and the costs of your offspring. There are too many people on this planet as it is, and I feel that the day must come soon when there will be laws passed limiting the number of children we are allowed, so enjoy your freedom while you can, but in so doing consider others.
Sits back and waits for flak to arrive....Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Hawker
Date: 10 Apr 02 - 09:09 PM

Giok, Whenever I hear this protest I have to ask the question WHO paid for your education, sewage and trash clearance etc? Were you not a child once?
I know and am aware of the choice I made!
This discussion is not about taxes, but about whether there should be some sort of overall pricing structure rather than the vastly ranging prices and vastly ranging choice of things for kids to do. As a (and I'm guessing here) non- parent you may not quite understand what it is like to attend a festival with kids in tow. I acknowledge that it is my choice to have kids, my choice to take them to a festival, my choice to pay for them to be there, but it seems absurd the prices I have to pay at some places and not at others and bizarre that some venues offer lots of stimulating activities for the youth attending festivals whilst others offer little or nothing.
An hour or two of play A session with Dr Sunshine for example, singing traditional (and new) kids songs and games, - and I am happy to be present with my children at such events, I would rather be there then dump them, makes them feel a part of the festival, lets off some of their steam and .....if they are happy kids, believe me, everybody else will be happier too! Dartmoor festival have a great kids session on the last day during the first half of the last concert, so that parents can attend the first half unaccompanied. They also have things for the children to see and join in with like a broom dancing competition and a step dance competition, these are following a workshop to show you how to do such things - for children of all ages! Sorry if your taxes are paying for my kids, my dads may well have paid for you!
Cheers, Lucy

Subject: RE: BS: Kids & Festivals charging
From: Manitas_at_home
Date: 11 Apr 02 - 04:40 AM

Giok,

Who's going to look after you when you're too old to do it yourself but the very children you complain about subsidising? Their taxes will also be paying for your state pension and healthcare (as the government hasn't bothered to invest the money you have paid in).