Carolan or O'Carolan??

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:41 AM

turlock,the h is silent,certain letters do not occur in the irish gaelic language or are not pronounced.th is pronounced t.

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 04:44 AM

i know someone called jo o regan.but common sense[which is often not common]means everyone calls him jo regan.but written letters are aderssed to j o regan.

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:29 AM

Eh--- I was surprised to see something from Martin Ryan which referred to "Bhuchaill Chaol Dubh", and something about "meaningless" &c from a "dark, slender boy" which I take it implies "BCd"; I haven't written anything here until now!

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:32 AM

The Dark Slender Boy is Guinness, so maybe it was the beer talking.

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:38 AM

Very good! (But I thought Guinness was... "Stout")

Just in case someone has a go at me for "wasting broadband" (?), I'll not get into an exegesis of Sean Aerach's song re. "The Dark Slender Laddie" (as Donal O' Sullivan renders it), but you've hit the ale on the (frothy) head right enough. Slainte; a point made plain is your only man.

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:50 AM

ABCD

The comment was for GuestDarkSlenderBoy . I hadn't anticipated the confusion!

Regards

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 11:51 AM

(Just checked thro this thread more carefully, and saw that a GUEST had used "Dark Slender Boy" on 6th August; apologies therefore to Martin Ryan - that "DSB" isn't the one who asked about Boney & F.H. some time back - before hastily staggering away)

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: MartinRyan
Date: 14 Aug 06 - 12:35 PM

No apology needed! Thank you for the thought.

Regards

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,Terry (Terence) Carolan
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:26 PM

Wow! What a trip to see this much info and debate about a name the same as mine. I had no idea that Turlough also translated to Terence. I've oft wondered if Turlough O'Carolan was somewhere down in the twisted roots of my family tree. I'm a "pop wanna be" as was so politely mentioned in this string of messages, so I'm no afficionado of Celtic music, but I do like it and do have several recordings of T. O'C's tunes, which I like. I think if he were alive today he may be a pop wanna be too. He had a good sense for catchy hooks and songs in the 2-3 minute range.

Thank you all for the wonderful history surrounding my name.

Terry Carolan

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Paul Burke
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:24 AM

Carolan wasn't a pop wannabee, he was there.

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Declan
Date: 23 Aug 06 - 04:45 PM

Just to be pedantic (why not join in) the O in front of Irish surnames represents grandson of, or descendent of rather than Son of, which is Mac both in Irelad as in Scotland. The Gaelic version of most surnames still retain the Ó or the Mac whereas it is dropped in some versions of the Anglicsed names. Thus I know a number of people who's names are Ó Ceallaigh in Gaelic, some call themselves Kelly in English, others O'Kelly.

As far as I can remember from my History lessons, surnames were imposed on us by the British and did not exist in ancient Gaelic. The practise of using surnames became widespread only after the practice of Primo genitur was introduced in the reign of Henry VIIIth as the rule for inheritence of property. In Gaelic speaking areas many people are still known locally by their given name followed byh that of a parent and Grandparent e.g Mairtin Seamus Seosamh.

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Declan
Date: 24 Aug 06 - 03:41 AM

To be more precise, the use of Surnames (Ó, Mac etc) goes back to ancient times (e.g Fionn MacCumhaill). What changed in the 16th century was the idea of a family name which was carried down through generations.

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,Terry (Terence) Carolan
Date: 27 Aug 06 - 08:27 PM

I'm fascinated to see such interesting info, and debate, on the background of my name. Well, I guess it would be my namesake's name. I had no idea that Turlough was equivalent to Terence. I'm not certain if I am a descendant of the great Turlough but it is possible. I can't say I'm an afficianado of Celtic music, but I do own several recordings of O'Carolan tunes and very much enjoy them. I am a "pop wannabe" as someone so politely put it. I suspect that Turlough might also have been one if he were here today. He did have a penchant for 2-3 minute songs with catchy hooks. Well, thank you all for the insight and now I'll know how to spell my name in Irish... if that should ever be necessary.

Terry Carolan

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Declan
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 03:31 AM

Terry,

The modern Irish name for Terence is Traolach. A lot of spellings in Gaelic have been simplified over the years. I think there is a good chance that Traolach is a simplification of Toirdheallbhach, but I don't claim any huge expertise in these matters.

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Aug 06 - 08:37 AM

Yup, it's a simplification which reflects the pronunciation.

Its being linked to Terence is neither a translation nor a transliteration, it's the result of a process of establishing agreed equivalences, though don't ask me who did the establishing or the agreeing. Some certainly go back at least to the time of Elizabeth I - cf. Grace which is used as the English equivalent of Gráinne, as in Granuaile.

From my first week at school, I learnt to use Ruaidhrí as the "Irish for" Roger, though there is no link between the two names, and Ruaidhrí is if anything closer to Roderick, just as Éamonn is closer to Edmond than to Edward, though used for both.

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Mr Happy
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:52 AM

Was at the inaugral night of our new sesh venue last night.

M/cat terrier played Hewlett, & I remarked 'That's one've Turlough O'Carolan's greatest hits!'

& was then rebuked by terrier saying 'His name was Carolan, NOT O'Carolan!'

So I've checked it out here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turlough_Carolan

If it really is without the 'O', it certainly makes the name much easier to say!

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 06:28 PM

With or without the "O", the thing about Carolan that has always puzzled me is how the tunes survived.

I mean, he was blind, right ? So no way did he jot down the notes.

No digital recording either, I very much doubt if he even had reel to reel ...

So was there a band of faithful acolytes, ace transcribers, following this itinerant harper from gig to gig and jotting down his every note, or did he hold weekly or monthly seminars in which he would play all his latest compositions at leisure for the benefit of the transcribers ?

Seriously, how did the tunes survive ?

I can guess at how they survived, but does anybody actually know?

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: bubblyrat
Date: 16 Oct 08 - 07:27 PM

To take it to its logical conclusion -if one is determined,for whatever reason,to leave out the "O" ( surely one of the enduring and defining features of Irishness ?)in O'Carolan (which is how I always refer to him ),then perhaps we should call him "Carlan" ??

                      Ralph Cholmondeley-Featherstonehaugh

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:30 PM

Except in cases where fraud is intended, my view is that a person's name is what he says it is. If Turlough called himself 'Carolan,' then that's his name.

At college age, I decided that I did not want to use my middle initial. I felt that using it made me sound like a dentist or something. Since then, I just identify myself with my first and last names. That's my decision, and so that's my name.

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: Tootler
Date: 17 Oct 08 - 04:59 PM

According to the book of Carolan tunes that I have, his name formally was Turlough O'Carolan, but the evidence in his own writing and in that of his friends suggests that he normally referred to himself simply as "Carolan".

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: GUEST,Mo
Date: 19 Nov 10 - 07:35 AM

O'Carolan....Means Grandson of Carolan...in English translation....
McCarolan would be Son of...
an "O" prefixed Irish Names are Older than "Mac" or "Mc"...as seen in The Name O'Brien...Many of whom supposedly descent from Brian Buru..and It was around his time Irish Surnames came to exist...1000 odd years ago
Many Gaelic Dropped the O as seen in names such as "Scottish Neill"...Rielly...Rourke...Sullivan...Kane....Connor....Kelly...Lunney...Lynch ...Gorman....Boyle...Laughlin....Malley...Flaherty...Flynn....Dowd....Haire.....Madden ...Donoghue....Riordan....Donovan....Moore (More)....etc etc etc

Subject: RE: Carolan or O'Carolan??
From: mikesamwild
Date: 08 Jan 11 - 08:02 AM

In Lancashire my Granny still called me for fun, Michael o'Bessie's (my mum). It had been a common way of distinguishing people with similar names or to show parentage.


re Carolan's tunes, I often wondered about how they were passed on. I think it was the tremendous memory within the old bardic tradition which was part of the education and training.It was still alive as the Gaelic aristocarcy was fading.

I read a tale of how Carolan hid and learned a piece by a visiting musician (maybe an Italian Baroque maestro)and then played it before him claiming it as his own composition. Quite a joker!

Most traditional musicians I know have hundreds of tunes by ear and memory and most don't seem to be dot or ABC readers. Also the local repertores were probably smaller than today and committed to memory by long aquaintance.

he seemed quite happy to play for the toofs and with the ordinary people for ancing as well as listening and he certainly liked a jar.