Prosecution of students pirating music

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Bill D
Date: 07 May 07 - 03:59 PM

oh..by the way...last weekend my wife & I bought several CDs, and I have my eye on several more. We have to spend what spare $$$ we have carefully, but we DO try to support artists when we can.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,wordy
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:04 PM

I agree we need new concepts, but I think there will be very few musicians making a living in ten or fifteen years time. Certainly not a lifetime's living as my generation has been lucky enough to enjoy.
Music as a commodity has been devalued so much in the last few years. It's everywhere you go as a background silence breaker. Silence is the new taboo.
"Celebrity" is the new music, meaning to the young generation today what songs meant to my generation.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:09 PM

Jim, I'm sure you wouldn't apply that non economic attitude to your own life's work would you? I bet you always feel you should be paid fairly for your labour. If music is your job, ( and I know some people on here resent those who do succeed at it) then it's the same as being a plumber or a teacher or whatever. I respect my fellow workers in whatever trade they follow and pay them accordingly for their services. Therefore if someone wishes to enjoy my services as a musician why should your attitude apply?
And when they do buy my "product" I'm pleased, not flattered, because I know it's good and worth its price, like any tradesman in any marketplace.

Apologies if I'm misinterpriting this but it certainly got me going.

By the way: I'm a damn good handyman and don't mind who uses the shower after it's installed.

As for the blogger who has put your albums up. You're entitled to be annoyed. I've said that before. It just wouldn't bother me.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:10 PM

The tell Wordy that you ARE a professional. Don't speak in general terms. I have heard your stuff--some of it, and indeed you ARE a pro. Your presumption that I haven't read the thread is erroneous. Shove that, pal.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:12 PM

And not one foul word spoken? Well done Peace. I'll go do that.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 07 - 04:12 PM

Fuckin' A.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 May 07 - 05:08 PM

New technology for the music i& recording industry has set this part of the world on fire. Based on the old rules of whoown's & has a right to "Interlectually property" was supposed to benifit the composer & the general public & enhance the creating of the arts. That's a foundation that's been faulty & failing from the start. The thief needs to take the blame but so does the industry & those that govern the industry & those that make the laws pretaining to the industry. The copyright laws are a hold over from a pat that's so far behind the present & so out of line with reality that's the only one benifiting form any of the composers are the big backers & takers & only a handful of the big time names & even they are losing control of their rights & money due them. To blame the artists is to blame the victim. To blame the thief is almost like entrapment with todays technolog. The real thieves aren't the kids downloading, it's the industry's fault for not minding the store when their main focus has been diverted from the store front & the advancement of the artist & their art form to the overwhelming profit, greed & corruption within the industry & it's bed mates that govern thee rules, rights & laws that were first inacted to protect & advance the artists & their art form. The artist & their art has been treated shamefully & they & the public have suffered. Don't through all the blame on the college kid that can't afford to buy their pleasureabe download when they are so far advanced in todays technology, blame those that are making money hand over fist & are even fighting over the scraps that don't belong to them in the first place.
When an artist spends as much time honing his craft as any doctor, lawyer, electrican or plumber does, earning themselves a good name & a good following they deserve the same percentage of their sweat as does any other working person. Would the publishers or producers like to take on artists as a partner when they sell enough? Not in this world! Would the distributors care to share a bit better that an 8 cent cut on what the market? It's no wonder Indies are cropping up like weeds it's reaction to being cut out of the money loop & their deciding to get or take their fair share of what's their's in the first place.

Barry

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 05:42 PM

Well Put, Barry.
You've done a fair job of summarising this whole thread.
It's fairly clear to me that Wordy (who has obviously been more successful than myself) and I are reacting in opposite manners to the same problem. I can only speak for myself from here on.
I believe that significant sales are quickly becoming a thing of the past. For one who has stepped away from the festivals in recent years, this is no big deal. Most of my sales in the past ten years were made in the hospitality industry where I'd get a three or four month gig, working 5 or 6 nights per week and usually selling 10 albums per night. Over and above my wages, that adds up to substantial earnings for a no frills folk entertainer. So, I've never really been in the big loop but then few of us have.
I am right in the middle of the process of trying to figure out how to turn this whole digital situation to my advantage.
I've moved my office, set up a studio for practise and performances and have ordered whatever equipment I think I'll need to do pod casts or live performances on the Internet. It is a very steep learning curve for me and I'm easily lost in the technology but not the audience. The one true constant in the folk music world is that the audience is us. We love our folk music and we don't have a lot too spend on it because we're doing things like putting our kids through college so that they can learn how to download free music.
At the end of the day though, if none of this works, we are all perfectly capable of finding venues and there will always be a need for entertainment.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 May 07 - 09:40 PM

More Id-Jets!!

The world since E-Mule, Napster, Morpheus, has changed radically.

Most exchanges are through file servers - 5-gig places that are free....for the first five. Sort of like FTP but with a password and between friends.....you give me your I-Plod , I give you my I-Pod, but distant.....or like Flicker, or PhotoBucket, or VideoJug....or making a cassett from an 33.3 album

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Thank the good lord the young are poor - it is their motivation to find a better way.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 10:51 PM

Translation please?

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 07 May 07 - 11:04 PM

Jim my Lad

Sorry to have drug you back...you should of stayed out.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Peace: I won't spend any more time on this thread

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 07 May 07 - 11:17 PM

"should of"
Yer a hoot!

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: cshurtz
Date: 07 May 07 - 11:21 PM

I say...use common sense when sharing and downloading. Don't rip off the little people out there that are trying to promote their music independently. Myself, I want anyone who wants to listen to my music to do so. I don't care if they have the money or not...but that is just me. I don't really care if Lars Ulrich from Metallica has to wait another week to put in his gold swimming pool :) Also, perhaps a compromise is these legal subscriptions like Rhapsody and Napster. My little $15/per month Rhapsody-to-go subscription has allowed me to indulge in all those great old Folkways albums and thousands and thousands more over the past few years. They are DRM encrypted so when my subscription is up, the songs won't work anymore. Talk amoungst yourselves!!!

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 07 May 07 - 11:21 PM

"Peace: I won't spend any more time on this thread"

That small print can sure mess with an ol' guy's eyesight. How the hell are you, Garg? It's been a long time.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST
Date: 08 May 07 - 03:55 AM

I'm sorry to be pedantic gargoyle, but it's ".....should HAVE stayed out." - one of my pet hates, the misuse of the word 'of'.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: stallion
Date: 08 May 07 - 05:53 AM

It is all about money and not about music, I suppose I could down load music for free, I buy it, my kids buy tracks from web sites, i buy cd's cos I can and don't need to the free downloads, I don't know why my kids buy and not down load for free, I have never asked them, it has never been an issue. When we recorded we paid our licence fee, and, although some of the arrangements were distinctly our own we didn't claim them as such. I know that many bootleg copies have been made and passed around I was even present when some were handed out, does it bother me, no, it isn't really about making money it is about making music and anyway, the people concerned probably bought a genuine copy in the end (rarity value!) For a long time the music industry has been a gravy train and a lot of people have been exploited, they were performers and their audience so the balance has been tipping with the popular music bands selling directly to their customers via the net and the middle persons not getting their vast cut, and, what really has me rolling about laughing, using tax payers money to remove the tax payers access to cheap music, now if the police charged the industries for policing it then wouldn't that be novel. It really hacks me off the amount of tax payers money is spent chasing and prosecuting the counterfeit clothing market so that the companies can maintain their profits ...at the tax payers expense and if the music industry wants to exert its monopoly on the music then let it pay for it. If a songwriters stuff is that good then there is enough legitamate income about to make a reasonable living, sad,it is only for a few of the top performers, I think the days of the "one hit wonder" keeping you for life may have passed...and why not.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Grab
Date: 08 May 07 - 08:23 AM

Not a pro myself, but anyway.

I guess it depends on where you make most money. If you're expecting to make most of your money by selling CDs, then people downloading or copying them is a major problem for you. But if you're expecting to make most of your money from people coming to your gigs, then the CDs are basically a loss-leader. You can afford to let people copy them, because you'll hopefully make up any possible losses by getting a larger fanbase and more gig revenue (and other merchandising at the gigs). Also consider that unless you've self-published, most of the CD price won't be going to you anyway!

But that's your choice for whichever way you want to go - whichever way you think will get you the most income. And in particular, if you're a songwriter who doesn't perform, you're only going to make money when other people perform or sell your songs, so people making copies of their CDs will directly affect your takings.

Incidentally, I do see a big difference between "sharing" as in people swapping CDs with their friends, or even copying friends' CDs, and "sharing" as in some Russian server holding a million different ripped songs for download by the world.

Graham.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 08 May 07 - 10:31 AM

"For a long time the music industry has been a gravy train and a lot of people have been exploited" ...Stallion.
Add to this... a lot of people have been completely stepped over. These are the same people who buy out every radio station, operator & DJ, own every spot they can get their hands on and dictate what we listen to if we can stand it. Going after our kids (the students) is just the first step. We should feel sorry for them?

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 08 May 07 - 11:27 AM

It is obviously the responsibility of the marketer/vendor of the music to ensure the remuneration of the artist as whatever the format of it's distribution, cd, lp, cassette or MP3.

Perhaps though it is realistic these days for the artist to accept that for every MP3 or CD sold, there will be two or three copies made.

The artist could in their own minds reconcile theft/sharing with the thought that they are not selling to individuals but to small groups of individuals eg groups of friends.

When I was a lad, my friends and I couldn't all aford to by lp's. So generally, one of us would have an original and the others would have recordings on cassette tapes.

We could share the burden of cost.

It was just as illegal as filesharing, but I think morally defensible.

All you artists who, rightly, have a dim view of piracy, can you honestly say that you never made or possessed cassette recordings of your favourite albums?

I don't begrudge those kind of pennies. In fact I would feel flattered if I felt a group of young 'uns were discussing and sharing my work.

Whaddaya say peace (hope all is well - this is but a fleeting visit.)

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Peace
Date: 11 May 07 - 05:45 PM

The purchase of a record or cd allows the purchaser a free copy as a back-up. Heck, I have duplicated some favourite stuff from vinyl to tape because the vinyl was 'wearing' out. If someone ripped a copy of something I did years and years ago, I don't mind. Rip a copy of something I wrote recently and that becomes a very different matter.

Great to see you again, lox. I have missed you, your wit and your humour. But I know other things are more important just now. Good luck with it all. Keep well.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 11 May 07 - 09:54 PM

To a rather dense guest- you should of stood in bed.

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 May 07 - 06:25 PM

I think that Jim has been generous in sharing his songs with others through his website. I know that he makes his living by performing and as one who has seen him live on stage, I rate him as a fine entertainer.
As a long time Mudcatter, I have expressed my views on copyright laws many times in the past and they are well known. I do not make my living as a performer or a songwriter but I do both in non commercial venues. I am flattered when others sing my creations and I have used the creations of others, Jim included, in public performance. My belief is that music and especially folkmusic is meant to be shared, and while I respect the right of others not not share, I commend those who do. I can not agree with those who sound like a pitchman for the commercial recording industry. In my humble opinion the industry fleeces both the performer and the fan!
                     Sandy

Subject: RE: Prosecution of students pirating music
From: Jim Lad
Date: 12 May 07 - 06:32 PM

And then.... just when I thought I'd made my point.... some eejit opens a thread like this!