BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: beeliner
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 02:07 AM

San Jose, Illinois is pronounced "San Joe's", and New Berlin, IL is "New BURL'n"

When someone from out-of-state pronounces the 's' on the end of Illinois, an Illinoisan will make a 'shushing' motion with finger to lips and say softly, "There's no noise in Illinois!"

Internationally, Americans often wonder whether it's "CopenHAHgen" or "CopenHAYgen". It's actually not even close to either, but something more like "KURbenHOWN"

And then the age-old problem of whether the capital of Florida is pronounced "My-AM-mee" or "Mee-AH-mee". It's actually pronounced "Tal-la-hass-ee".

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:40 AM

My native city is traditionally pronounced Embro, not to be confused with Edinburg, Texus.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:48 AM

Most of the foreign places which have acquired English names seem to places of particular significance - major cities and seaports. Most of these seem to be simply mispronunciations of the native names - it is easy to see how "Firenze" might mutate into "Florence" in an English mouth, especially when it's been passed around a few times. Once it gets written down, that name tends to stick.

We should also remember that the modern pronunciation in the foreign language may have altered from the time the English version was adopted. Was the "s" in Paris sounded in mediaeval French?

I grew up in Essex not far from Billericay (Bill-er-ICK-ee, although the "ck" is usually replaced by a glottal stop these days), famous as one of the gathering places of the Pilgrim Fathers before joining the Mayflower. When they arrived in Massachusetts, they named a settlement there "Billerica" - reflecting its 17th Century spelling and pronunciation. These things aren't fixed.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Anne Lister
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:58 AM

The small black underground mammal was a mole ...the point was to avoid saying "Wally" as my first attempt in case it caused offence.

Yes, Eyebeetha is Ibiza, in the usual way that people round here refer to it for holidays and night clubs and a style of music, even. Maybe there's a connection with Eyerack?

Sometimes the English name for a place (such as Florence for Firenze) is the same in other languages (such as French), which might indicate a bit more history to the re-naming. Most languages have some different names for places in them ... in Welsh, for example, London becomes Llundain, and there are a number of other English cities with Welsh versions. So it's not just mis- or different pronunciation that's going on.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 06:15 AM

Áth Cliath for Dublin takes some beating.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 08:30 AM

Tha mi a Dun Eideann (anglicized as Dunedin) with Gaelic Dun and Germanic Burgh being interchangeable historically. Originally the British used the same form of the name, but later replaced 'din' with 'caer' which is usually the equivalent of chester (cester, caster etc).

In the west, Norse kirk and Gaelic kil were interchangeable until modern times.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 12:16 PM

Originally the British used the same form of the name, but later replaced 'din' with 'caer'

Surely "caer" would be from British/Welsh, with Dun being from Gaelic..

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 12:44 PM

The point being, British/Welsh was around in Great Britain before Gaelic speakers arrived from Ireland.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 02:54 PM

Dun is the Gaelic form and it's British cognate is Din as in Denbigh (cf Dun beag). Caer, I believe is derived from the Latin 'caster', hence it's appearance in place names where there has been a Roman fortress, eg Cramond, Caer (Chester).

Edinburgh was a din in the time of the Votadini (y Gododdin) but as I said, in Modern Welsh it has become Caeredin.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Sep 10 - 03:50 PM

how "Firenze" might mutate into "Florence" in an English mouth

It was Florentia before Rome fell, then Italicised to Firenze. It's arguable that Naples is nearer Neapolis than Napoli is. It's astounding how names persist- Nablus is another Neapolis, despite Byzantine, Arab, Norman, Ottoman, British and Israeli occupations (I almost forgot the Mongols). And London is still London, despite Augustus.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Anne Lister
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 01:50 PM

London is only still London in English, though (and German)... as I said above, it's Llundain in Welsh, Londres in French and oh, whatever it is in Spanish, Italian, Greek and so on - but not London.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 03:22 PM

Laundress in French

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:13 PM

And then there's Arkansas - which for some reason is pronounced Arkinsaw??? Why??

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 15 Sep 10 - 04:35 PM

Beause people from there are Arkansawyers.
It came from an Indian name. The French explorers gave it their rendition of the Indian name (the Mississippi River forms most of the eastern boundary, and it was governed from New Orleans in the early days). It was part of the Louisiana Purchase bought from Napoleon.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Slag
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 02:38 AM

We used "man'-ehs" on sand-whiches at our house. To me the New England accent is foreign. Why do they say "A" for "R" and "R" for "A"? They claim to live somewhere in Armericur, wherever that is.

I want my attorney to practice law (that's "La" as in La la la) and not "loy" as for those who are want to say Loy-yer.

via is vee-uh, not vye-uh

I don't mean to be de-vye-iv (devisive) nor duh-viss-iv.

May-hee-co= Mexico
Tay-haus= Texas (originally)

The Greek gets butchered more than any other language.

But I'm doing well just to be understood with my "Cali-Okie" accent so I can't complained.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:22 AM

Anne, Llundain doesn't strike me as being too far removed from London, especially in its earlier forms of Londinium, Lunderwic and Lunderburgh.

Not only have the names and spellings of places changed over time, but the pronunciation of both the native and foreign languages may also have changed. Add to that the difficulty most people have in pronouncing foreign words.

It seems entirely possible that, for example, the French "Londres" once represented a fair attempt by someone whose native language was mediaeval (or earlier) French to imitate whatever London was then called in Anglo-Saxon. Once the word gets written down (also bearing in mind that the rules of spelling weren't yet established), it will then be pronounced like that by people who have never heard it spoken by a native speaker. Over time, they diverge until they bear little resemblance to each other in the modern versions of the two languages.

I grew up calling the Chinese city "Peking". Then it was decided that the established method of transcribing Chinese into the Western alphabet was incorrect, and it became "Beijing". These are both attempts to represent the same word. I suspect that the way it's pronounced by a native of the city is different from either version.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Anne Lister
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 04:33 AM

Howard, the same can be said of all the city names we've been discussing. The OP question was why are we so inconsistent about which names and words remain true (no matter where you are) to the way a native speaker would say them and which acquire different pronunciations (spellings will follow pronunciation, generally speaking). London is definitely not pronounced the English way here when spoken in Welsh, any more than it is in Italy, France and Spain, for example - but some place names will retain their essential pronunciation no matter where you are. And it's still unclear to me at least why this is.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 10:49 AM

It's usually only the most significant locations which acquire their own names in other languages - usually major cities and seaports with whom there was regular contact from distant times. I've already put forward my theory why these sometimes differ from the local names. Once in use, these get established in the language.

Other places may only have come to our notice recently, and so the local name will be used, although not necessarily the local pronunciation. In these cases people may have come across the name first in print, and attempt to pronounce them according to the rules of their own language. It doesn't take long for mispronunciations to become established, for example Eye-beetha, Majorka and Eye-rack as mentioned earlier.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 12:09 PM

Howard ~~ I have lived for a while in Beijing and my first wife worked there for a couple of years. The natives there pronounce it as we do: Bay-djing~~ note that the J is hard as in Jack or Jazz, not soft as in French Je or as in the famous Russian dancer transliterated as Nijinsky, as some smartarses seem for some reason to imagine is correct.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 03:15 PM

Michael, you've rather proved my point - after years of calling it "Peking" we were told it should now be called "Beijing", with a soft j. Closer to the actual name, but still wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 07:48 PM

The natives there pronounce it as we do: Bay-djing

A classic example of the trap it is so easy to fall into - assuming that the "we" to which we belong is somehow the norm. Because that's certainly not how I'd be likely to pronounce it. (I might change now, assuming some indignant Chinese Mudcatter turns up and and disagrees with MtheGM on this point.)

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Joybell
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:17 PM

McGrath -- "Then there's "Celtic" which is hard when it's music and soft when it's football"
Not in our household. It's "seltic" all the way and always.
Probably the only place left on the planet.
True-Love was a linguist and he can never let "Keltic" go by. Unless people are willing to write it down and spell it with a "K". Which would fit with classical rules, but slow down the conversation.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Sep 10 - 08:40 PM

. Unless people are willing to write it down and spell it with a "K".

You can do that in English to avoid confusion - but there is no K in the Scottish, Irish,or for that matter Welsh, alphabets - and in all these C is pronounced as in Cat.

Subject: RE: BS: Foreign pronunciations: inconsistencies
From: Howard Jones
Date: 17 Sep 10 - 04:51 AM

'Celtic' can be pronounced with both a hard and soft 'c' - both are correct. The hard 'c' is probably more correct etymologically, since the word probably derives from Latin and Greek, whereas the soft c follows the convention in English that 'c' followed by 'e' is usually soft.

However, in the UK at least, for some considerable time the convention has been to use the hard 'c', except when talking about the Scottish football team.