Auto-Tune is for Pussies

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 22 May 10 - 09:11 AM

Almost everybody I know can sing in tune. The little kids in my family can sing in tune.

Why can't pop stars sing in tune? Seems to me it ought to be a requirement for the job.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: matt milton
Date: 22 May 10 - 09:31 AM

well by and large they can. the point about auto tune is it is used unnecessarily - it's contributing to an attitude that deems things "out of tune" that would previously have been deemed character, style, individuality.

I was listening to some Shirley Collins at work yesterday (Harvest Years anthology). She's a singer who goes a bit flat on occasion: her pitching occasionally wavers. That doesn't in any way spoil my enjoyment of her music; I don't even regard it as a fault, I just regard it as part of the experience of listening to her.

If the Stones albums Their Satanic Majesties Request or Beggars Banquet were submitted to the record company today as new albums, the record company would tell them to re-record it and, doubtless, would have suggested they use auto-tune: there's some really sloppy timing on it and absolutely tons of off notes. That's why they are such good albums.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Mr Red
Date: 22 May 10 - 10:04 AM

I would bet it has been around in Folk Sound systems for some time. I remember a drummer pick-up his violin and he seems to be pitch perfect. And that was 20 years ago. He is probably an excellent musician but it was so perfect I did wonder. Sound systems at large festivals use a lot of equipment and if they are going to get big names (especially those wot ain't exactly Folk) and get the videos on TV then they are not aiming at integrity - they are aiming at mass market and revenue.
AFAIK only Cambridge get on TV and the names of the acts look less and less Folkie. Shrewsbury will follow, as soon as I see TV footage it will prove my point. It has never been a secret that the business plan there is to out-compete Cambridge and it won't be done with Folk names. We have the evidence already. And the disillusioned Folkies that went with it. Who knows how many, it is inevitable as growth is sought, some will fall by the wayside.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 10 - 03:47 PM

Actually, I quite like some of the German heavy rock, but that track is dogshit because it is out of tune.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 10 - 03:48 PM

PS - and the riff sounds like "Wild Thing" for the tone deaf.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 22 May 10 - 04:03 PM

Crow Sister, I think many people would in fact notice if a singer had started out in A and ended up in A-flat after six verses.

I think I, for one, would hear it, and I am sure I am not alone.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 22 May 10 - 04:12 PM

Murray, thanks - I understand now. From your prior posting I thought you meant the singer sang a semitone out literally from 'start through to finish', which rather confused me!

RB - I take it from that comment, that you're not a big Amon Duul II fan then.. ;-)

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 22 May 10 - 06:39 PM

Correct. But I like Kraftwerk, Neu, and greater than them Tangerine Dream.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: greg stephens
Date: 23 May 10 - 08:01 AM

What I can't understand is, what does this process do to people who who use, for example, variable thirds and sevenths? Bessie Smith uses a complete range of thirds in the same song often..would Autotune reduce all of these notes to either a major or a minor third?
I work a lot with the singer Kate Barfield, who regularly swoops and slides on the same note, from a flat minor third up to a major third and then tails back down again to an indeterminate lower note. So, what would that come out as? I dont really knoqw what's going on here. I remember we were working with some rappers once and one of their computery professor types was processing all the singing and it came out really weird...perhaps he was using this sort of thing? Can anyone elucidate?

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Will Fly
Date: 23 May 10 - 08:10 AM

I wonder how Billie Holiday would be regarded by a modern studio producer with Autotune at their fingertips. She famously slid from note to note - often on a descending curve at the end of a phrase.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 23 May 10 - 09:07 AM

"I remember we were working with some rappers once and one of their computery professor types was processing all the singing and it came out really weird...perhaps he was using this sort of thing? Can anyone elucidate?"

Greg, from what I've been reading there has been criticism concerning the all pervading presence of auto-tune effects being used by Hip-Hop artists, to the extent that rapper Jay-Z condemned the trend (which some have felt was killing hip-hop) in his track D.O.A. or 'Death of Autotune' ("You rappers singin too much, Get back to rap you T-Pain'n too much"). In other words I imagine your intuition was probably correct and your rapping computery prof. collaborator was probably using auto-tune.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Highlandman
Date: 23 May 10 - 07:41 PM

I've played around a bit with autotune on my home rec rig-up. I use a freeware plugin (can't be arsed to look up the name of it right now, sorry) but I feel compelled to point out that the thing is ADJUJSTABLE.
It's not all-or nothing, like a switch with two positions -- Dylan or Cher.
The one I use has parameters for attack time, tolerance of off-pitch-ness (not what it's called in the manual), amount and speed of correcting. You can get the weird glissando effect or something much more subtle. And you can program it to shift in and out, not always be active full-time.
Possibly more interesting, it also has choices for various temperaments, and a way to set custom ones (if I ever figure out how to work that bit of it).
If you are only shifting a flattish note up a few cents, it works reasonably well. More than that and it's definitely un-subtle. The rationale for using it to fix a recording is that, like a mistake in a wallpapered room, you'll notice the blasted spot every day hereafter for ever and ever amen, at least until you change the wallpaper.
But in the end I find that the amount of effort needed to get the correction just right without the ugly side effects is more work than just punching in a fix or retaking the whole track.
And I wouldn't be caught dead using the live equivalent, even if I could afford one. It's bogus for anybody IMO, but especially wrong for someone like me whose musical sound has been described as "well lived-in."
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Melissa
Date: 23 May 10 - 09:43 PM

I couldn't find any before/after examples of subtle auto-tune use but I did run across this:

Original Charlie

Auto-Tune Charlie

It looks like a fun gadget to play with..

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 24 May 10 - 01:22 AM

Dear Crow Sister,
    I wasn't too much of a Christine Aguilera fan much either...BUT, I saw her do this, and it blew me away....enjoy!

Christine at the Grammys

GfS

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: mandotim
Date: 24 May 10 - 03:29 AM

The live pitch correction kit used to be really expensive, but folks like DBX and TC Helicon now make very sophisticated gear that is well within the reach of the 'Weekend Warrior' musician. People are using it, and it's becoming less noticeable as the electronics improve. That said, it's worth listening to the various 'singing contest' shows on TV to get an idea of what's going on. On the 'live' later stages of these shows, pretty much every performance is pitch-corrected, and quite heavily at that. Sometime the singers are so far out that the software chooses the wrong note.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: treewind
Date: 24 May 10 - 04:00 AM

"What I can't understand is, what does this process do to people who who use, for example, variable thirds and sevenths?"

You can adjust Autotune (and the other devices/programs that do the same) in amount of correction and speed of response. You can also tell Autotune what scale to tune to e.g. equal temperament, just intonation, mean tone, Indian (which works well for folk music too, apparently) etc.

If you have any sense though, you don't use it on a voice like that, especially when those more subtle shades of pitch are entirely deliberate and part of the performance.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: Darowyn
Date: 24 May 10 - 04:43 AM

Has anyone else noticed that there are a small number of "post-autotune" singers around who have the technical ability to sing a glissando as a series of discrete pitches rather than a continuous slide?
I was watching Michael Buble on TV last night and it is clear that he can do this at will, as well as reproducing Sinatra's scoops and sweeps when needed.
This was a live performance, and for this to be the result of real time processing would be beyond the powers of the fastest sound engineer in the west.
I have heard Craig David do a similar thing, and Celine Dion is reputed to be able to copy the Cher "Believe" pitch jumps just by vocal technique.
It is clear that the sound is interesting and attractive enough to some singers that they spend time learning to sing that way.
I wonder if there are any singers in the Folk world who can do it.
Cheers
Dave

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 24 May 10 - 04:56 AM

The thing about pitch correction is that you need to be pretty close for it to work well. It won't make a bad singer sound like a good singer. It'll make a bad singer sound like a bad singer with Autotune.

Apart from the obvious artefacts when it's used unsubtly, the thing that bugs me most about overuse of pitch correction is that no-one thinks beyond equal temperament, which is like restricting a photo to 12 colours only. I suspect that 99% of the people using it don't have a clue what most of the controls are.


If you have any sense though, you don't use it on a voice like that, especially when those more subtle shades of pitch are entirely deliberate and part of the performance. Exactly.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: matt milton
Date: 24 May 10 - 06:47 AM

"Has anyone else noticed that there are a small number of "post-autotune" singers around who have the technical ability to sing a glissando as a series of discrete pitches rather than a continuous slide?
... It is clear that the sound is interesting and attractive enough to some singers that they spend time learning to sing that way.
I wonder if there are any singers in the Folk world who can do it."

Yes, I'd noticed that. I'd say that's a hugely unwelcome development - I hate that sound.

You've reminded me of the fact that when I heard Emily Portman's recent album I briefly wondered if she was using autotune. Before concluding she wasn't.

I can't hear any of the digital side-effects of autotune on her singing. But she does have a sense of pitch that's so unerringly precise and unwavering that you'd be forgiven for thinking it was the result of autotune. Her pitch doesn't seem to alter one iota, not even one micro-micro-microtone, which is quite unusual. Having seen her live a few times, I know she's a very good singer.

Have a listen to Emily Portman's songs on her myspace:

www.myspace.com/emilygportman

(note the G in the middle of the myspace page.)

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 May 10 - 11:59 AM

"You've reminded me of the fact that when I heard Emily Portman's recent album I briefly wondered if she was using autotune. Before concluding she wasn't.
I can't hear any of the digital side-effects of autotune on her singing. But she does have a sense of pitch that's so unerringly precise and unwavering that you'd be forgiven for thinking it was the result of autotune."

I'd agree that she sounds unusually clean and tidy. It sounds like the vocals have been smoothed out somehow, though I really can't tell.. Incidentally Country is supposed to be one of the auto-tune offenders regards LIVE performances.

June Tabor has such control of timing and tuning that I found it can sound almost 'other' (I hesitate to use 'robotic' as that's too pejorative sounding). I like her vocals, but it probably wouldn't be a big leap for someone like her to make those tight shifts actually sound auto-tuned.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 May 10 - 12:29 PM

Note the 'G' sez Matt. Ah, I got a different artist last time..

Emily 'G' sounds like she has tight control over her timing, tuning, tone and ornament. There's a slight metallic edge to her tone at times, but I can do that singing from the back of the throat/nasal area sorta thing. When I was taught very briefly by an early music scholar who also sings in professional choirs, he was most strict about technical elements like timing and tuning - no fluffing, no wavering allowed!

Otherwise, I love her elegant arrangements. There's something very 'Virgoan' or Alice going on in the music personality wise. If she *does* use auto-tune to maintain precision, I don't think it compromises the music.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: GUEST,CS
Date: 24 May 10 - 12:42 PM

On a second listen, I dunno why I though the Country Emily P was smoothed out in any way.. A case of hearing what I expected to be there I think.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 24 May 10 - 12:48 PM

From: GUEST,Jonny Sunshine
Date: 24 May 10 - 04:56 AM

'The thing about pitch correction is that you need to be pretty close for it to work well. It won't make a bad singer sound like a good singer. It'll make a bad singer sound like a bad singer with Autotune.'

That about sums it up. All these things are part of the recording arsenal. They all have their place and use. Just need to point out that 'autotune' is applied to a section or even the whole of a recorded track. If doing industrial work, I would have it in line all the time (Time is money) When doing the kind of recording I'm better known for around here, we take the time and trouble to do multiple takes and to 'comp' them. I.E. If we get a good overall track, any dodgy bits are sought for in other takes and pasted in. If there is an individual note that requires attention, it is individually selected and pitch corrected by ear. This is NOT the same process as autotune.
Incidently , some three years ago, someone accosted me at a festival and started blathering on about audio manipulation on a certain track I had produced. Unable to remember how the job was done, I looked it up a week later and discovered that it was done in three takes with absolutely no manipulation at all. There are other tracks on the same album, where a small degree of skullduggery has taken place. Ce'st la vie.

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: DonMeixner
Date: 24 May 10 - 01:03 PM

I gave AutoTune at SubCat Studios in Skaneateles, NY fits. Not because I can't sing in tune but because, at the time, AutoTune had trouble with yodelling.

We found it to be a valuable learning and teaching tool. I was good to have a visual representation of where you were pitch wise when you thought you were bang on. If three voices were 2 cents flat and a fourt voice was 2 cents sharp there was an obvious issue. But if every one was a little flat against the untunables; banjo, fiddle and drums, it was not a big issue.

In the studio or in rehearsal I have not big issue with AutoTune. In performance is another story. Listen to the harmonys of The Sons of the Pioneers from the thirties and you hear some incredible work. Talent is what it takes, not technology.

Don

Subject: RE: Auto-Tune is for Pussies
From: GUEST,Phil Beer
Date: 24 May 10 - 01:50 PM

PS. I've no personal experience of autotune processing live but I don't actually think its as prevalent as people think. It would require the absolute attention of a single engineer to try and conceal that it was in use. Of course, if its being used to simply create the familiar pop 'warbles' then there would be no problem. Plug and Play!