The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?

Subject: The Confederate Sub Hunley, any info?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:03 PM

Thanks to those who've made the "Curious Civil War Song" thread so interesting.

The HUNLEY. What an amazing (and eerie) story! Does anyone have any more info on it, or can you point me in a direction where I can find drawings, details etc.

The motivation of the crew must have been amazing. The TV news keeps referring to a "suicide" mission. Did the crew know that at the beginning? Were they REALLY all five foot two inches? Fascinating.

Thanks.

Rick

---

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Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: SeanM
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:05 PM

Didn't they just locate the wreckage and bring it up?

M

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Naemanson
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:05 PM

Apparently the Hunley killed two crews just in testing! And the last crew still went on board! It says something about how people can be willing to sacrifice everything for their cause. An important lesson.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:08 PM

The Hunley used an exploding device mounted to a ram on the bow. The idea was to ram a Union ship broadside,detonate the bomb,and then reverse the ram shaft out of the enemy hull. When the Hunley struck its prey, the ram could not be dislodged, and both ships went down together.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:16 PM

Rick, Here ya go

Bert

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: MMario
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:16 PM

not so... The wreck of the Confederate submarine H.L. Hunley was discovered early in May, 1995, off Sullivan's Island, South Carolina. The 40-foot Hunley sank in the aftermath of her maiden attack on February 17, 1864, after ramming the Union warship USS Housatonic with a harpoon torpedo mounted on an iron shaft extending from the bow. All nine men aboard the Hunley were lost. The wreck of the Hunley is considered priceless because of its historic significance--it was one of the first submarines, and the first to be used successfully in warfare.

Documents indicate that the Hunley was propelled by a human powered direct-drive shaft extending along the length of the vessel. The harpoon torpedo mounted on the bow was designed to be driven into the wooden hull of opposing ships, after which the Hunley would back off and detonate the charge from a distance using a lanyard. Survivors from the Housatonic, which sank in minutes, saw these events occur, confirming the success of the Hunley's attack. Their last sight of the Hunley was as she reversed her course and returned towards Charleston Harbor. The Hunley never arrived.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Mbo
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 01:41 PM

The first time I heard about the Hunley was in 1991 when I was 12, and we visited the South Carolina State Musuem in Columbia. The had the whole story and a life-sized replica of the sub. Very interesting.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 02:12 PM

Gee, I hate getting here late. That's a great site Bert!!!

Rick, you got some good info fast......The only thing I'd add is that the Turner production of the story on TV was truly pathetic. There was enough drama and heroism and cowardice and suspense in the real story without adding in the typical love interests and complete fabrications.

If you (like Meebo and I) get a chance to see the memorial display in SC, do it. Like so many other things from that time period I was overcome by the thought that this was a different breed of man......same feeling I get when I think of the forced marches prior to Chickamauga, or a lot of other CW events.

The Hunley was TINY!!!! I mean REALLY TINY!!! And it looks like an iron coffin to begin with. Guys our size couldn't have fit through the hatch!!! Engineering-wise it was primitive at best and I think the men who manned her must have had small bodies and huge nuts.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: SeanM
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 02:33 PM

OK... I unfortunately didn't have time to get to the article, but I do recall seeing something about "Civil war era sub wreckage discovered". Anyone else hear anything about this, or is this Hunley related? Or have the voices in my head gone to print? It was within the last week...

M

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 02:43 PM

I am reminded, oddly enough, of a song, not of a Star Trek episode! Anybody know The Bold Fenian Ram? Will check the Db and come back.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: jeffp
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 02:44 PM

Sean, your surmise is correct. The Hunley was discovered about five years ago by a team funded by author Clive Cussler. It was raised yesterday and will be stabilized and eventually put on display. The crew, apparently still on board, will be buried with honors in the same cemetary that contains the remains of the first two crews.

jeffp

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 02:51 PM

Sean, I believe that this week's story is that the Hunley has been salvaged (brought to the surface); it was discovered in 1995, but not salvaged until this week. I understand that they intend to restore it and put it on display. From the news account I heard, it is believed to be in remarkably good shape; apparently it was silted over shortly after it sank, which effectively mummified it. The folks who are doing this think that the contents of the sub, as well as the sub itself, may be very well preserved -- they hope to find leather boots, clothing, possibly even papers (orders, etc.), which will be very interesting to the historians. And, of course, if they find all those things they will also find nine dead bodies (136 years old; anyone want that job?). They plan suitable, quasi-military burials in that event.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Mbo
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 02:51 PM

Mrrz...think Mad Matt Decker.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Kim C
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 02:58 PM

The search engine Excite had a whole news page on the Hunley with photos, stories, etc.

As for them all being 5'2", I imagine that shorter men were chosen to go aboard submarines because the quarters were very small. But the old thing about "people were so much shorter then" is not entirely true..... the documented average height of soldiers in the Union army was 5'8" and some change. (I don't suspect Confederate army records are any different.) Maybe we're up to an average of 5'10" now, or something like that.

I wish I could have been there when they brought it up.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 03:04 PM

Sorry, GREAT Fenian Ram. Not in the Trad. Here's what I remember of it; all proper nouns are wild guesses, and some of the lines might not be in their proper verses... but here goes:

The Great Fenian Ram (Wolfe Tones)

In the town of Liscannor, in the County of Clare
Where many brave Irishman's plans were laid bare
You saw the wild seals as you stood on the beach
And you wondered and gazed at the ocean beneath
Your life of religion was never to be
You soon found your way to the land of the free
In the state of New Jersey perfected your plan
And your work was unveiled as the Great Fenian Ram
Chorus: Some men for adventure have planned for the stars
And others have hoped to see Venus or Mars
But you worked and you labored to build your wild dream
Oh, that you'd be the man with the first submarine!

Neath the waves of the ocean your craft was at home
And the Fenians had plans for the boat for to roam
For to take on the ships of the British Navy
And all would be done now from under the sea
The English, so tested, complained to Old Sam
Bout a mischievous boat called the Great Fenian Ram
"Oh, he's just an inventor, we've nothing more to hide!"
And John Bull was so angry when the Yankees replied
Chorus
(... - missing some ...)
In the Passyunk River your friends were amazed
As the ship moved so silent neath the rivers and waves
An attack on the Emperor was prevented by spies
And the cause was all crushed mid dissention and lies
But Uncle Sam's navy was so proud of your boat
That the Holland's the name of the first sub afloat!
Chorus
And here as I stand beside New York bay
I can see all the ways you're remembered today
For your name it is written on tunnels and on ships
On the streets of New York and in New Jersey slips
Be proud, sons of Erin, an Irishman he
John Holland, the first for to voyage neath the sea
Let the Statue of Liberty a beacon shine free
For John Holland, the first for to voyage neath the sea!
Chorus, repeat chorus...

Anybody know for whom the Holland Tunnel was named? Where's Dave, The Ancient Mariner? Is anything in this song actually true? Apparently he wasn't the FIRST, not if the Civil War had one, right?

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 03:06 PM

Thanks, Mbo, I'll look.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 03:12 PM

The whole matter of size is somewhat overrated (no jokes please). When I first left school I served an apprenticeship as a boilermaker at a company which made road tankers. You know those things that carry gasoline, or oil, or chemicals.

Many of them were a lot smaller than the Hunley but we could work inside them easily (and I'm 6'-2"), even the little ones that deliver your fuel oil. The smallest manholes were elliptical and were 16" by 12". No one had any problems getting in or out of the tanks.

Not to say that those Hunley guys weren't brave, because they were. Just that there was a reasonable amount of room inside.

Bert.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Gervase
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 03:14 PM

There's also some fascinating information and pictures at www.hunley.org, the official site for the recovery.
It's an intriguing and chilling tale - I've always had a terror of subs, and think that any submariner (even in a modern tin fish) is bloody brave and probably bonkers.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Mrrzy
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 03:49 PM

And if you don't agree, read Ice Station Zebra. Chilling tale.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 04:07 PM

Bert, I hate to disagree, but I've been around the tankers you refer to and they are larger than the Hunley. The size is far more confining. And bro, ain't no way I fit thru a 16x12 hatch!!!(:<))

My comments on the "different breed" I suppose just have to do with the fact that these people grew up in hardier and harder times. Drive out of Chattanooga to Nashville and look at the terrain, especially between Monteagle and Chattanooga. The Union army covered that ground in the late winter and early spring---lots of rain, lots of mud. Wool uniforms and blankets soaked through and unable to dry out. Temps in the 30's to the 70's that time of year with VERY variable weather. I don't even want to think about it.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Bert
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 04:35 PM

Spaw, you LOVE to disagree;-) Road tankers in England are generally smaller than those over here maximum size allowed on the roads then was 5000 gallons. And tankers have gotten larger over the years. Some of the water tanks were very small, about 800 gallons. They were about 3'-6" high. (multiply by 5/4 to get US gallons). Then they were split into compartments inside, some not more that 2 feet wide.

There's kindof a trick to getting through the small manholes. You put one arm in, then your head then you slide your other shoulder through.

Bert.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: GUEST,winterhorse290
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 08:34 PM

it may have been found, but the real question is"should it have been disturded" what would people think if someone raised the arizona or the titanic. brave men died on that boat. they should have been allowed to rest in peace! guess there will be a big stink when those brave sailors are buried in confederate flag draped coffins. sorry, it was a machine of war way ahead of it,s time. to think that just fourty years later, the germans had built a working sudmarine useing ideas from the confederate navy. those were truly the days of iron men , on both sides.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: ddw
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 09:56 PM

Rick,

It may take a couple of days before I can get time to hunt it down, but I have a fair amount of info on the Hunley in some of my civil war books at home. Just relying on my (often faulty) memory, I think the Hunley was actually the second confederate sub. The first, designed by the Hunley the second one was named after, sank in trials with the designer on board. Also, my recollection is that both "boats" were made from converted locomotive or industrial boilers. I'm sure I have some sketches of the plans in one of the books. I'll see what I can dig out.

david

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 09:57 PM

Interesting point winterhorse. I doubt if any sunken ship (or indian graveyard etc.) is ever going to be left alone as long as the public is curious and someone can make money on it.

You're right about the potential controversy about the re-burial of those brave sailors. My guess is that there won't be a Confederate flag on the coffins. And that there will be a lotta flack from all sides!

I guess my fascination with this is connected to my absolute fear of small confined spaces. Hoo boy, I wouldn't have been one of those volunteers!

Rick

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Mbo
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 10:07 PM

There was only one Hunley, and it was also known as The Fish. After sinking and killing it's crew AND the Hunley, the inventor, in an unsuccessful run, (where it was to drag a torpedo behind it, dive under the enemy ship, release the tow rope on the torpedo, which would hit the ship with the sub reemerged on the other side of the ship) it was raised from Charleston harbor, the dead crew and inventor receiving military funerals with all honours. It was refit and rearmed with the explosive charge on the pole boom.

It was the 2nd attempt, again the U.S.S Housatonic which was the final demise of the Hunley. The Housatonic was sunk after the crewmen could not lower their cannon low enough to shoot at the sub. All of the Union crew escaped safely to another Union ship, the Canadiagua. Unfortunetly, the Hunley crew were not so lucky. The Hunley sunk again, thus killing it's crew a second time. And it's still there now, until the raise it up here in the near future, and this crew will receive honarable military funerals just as the first lost crew deserved.

--Matt

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 10:40 PM

Excellent job Meebs......I believe it sank one other time during trials also, between the two attacks.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Mbo
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 10:56 PM

BTW the first time it sunk, killing the crew and Hunley himself, the cause was that the bilge pumps gave out. I did a 3-year extensive study on the Civil War when I was 11-14 years old. That's how I know all this stuff. I have more reference books about the Civil War than anything else too!

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 11:05 PM

Actually I was wrong....not too unusual......The Hunley had an accident prior to killing Hunley....buoyancy problem while moored. Sorry.

After I looked that up, I had another look at Bert's site which I had looked at mainly for the drawings, and the story is there also. I'm so glad I have my stuppidity to fall back on. Geeziz........

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 11:14 PM

Dammit all!!!!!!!

What I keep meaning to ask here is, are there any songs about the Hunley, especially from the CW/post-CW period? I mean a song about whizz made their hit parade......anything on the Hunley?

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: rangeroger
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 11:19 PM

The mention earlier of Clive Cussler is right on.While he is best known for his Dirk Pitt adventure novels, the reason he writes is to finance his explorations,mostly marine but also landbound.
He has a book out(CRS strikes. I can't remember the title) where a chapter is devoted to his search for and subsequent discovery of the Hunley. He includes quite a bit of historical fact along with a fanciful story of the Hunley. Interesting reading,it includes his other searches and discoveries, some of which will amaze you.

rr

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: SeanM
Date: 09 Aug 00 - 11:22 PM

I found another article in the LA times (here until the Times removes it) about the Hunley's raising. There was a picture in the paper, but unfortunately not on the website.

M

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 12:17 AM

Isn't there a Confederate submarine preserved at Jackson Square in New Orleans? I believe there were two submarines.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 01:22 PM

Hmmm... I'm sort of surprised they let this sort of grave desecration proceed. Amazing what folks will do in pursuit of the almighty tourist dollar!

Dunno why they want to bury the bodies- with those skeletons on display the museum would have a REAL attraction- nothing like dead bodies to draw a crowd.

These are the grandfathers & great-grandfathers of folks that are still allive, for chrissakes, not some ancient civilization!

In most states it is a crime to exhume a body without the consent of the next of kin. Think if I was a resident of South Carolina I'd file a class action suit.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 05:21 PM

Don't count on it not happening. I would like to make a few points. First, the crew should be buried under the flag they served under. Until the preservation crew takes a good look at the Hunley, we won't know why it sunk. We may never know but the bilge pumps would be the place I would start at if I wanted to find out why she sunk. I don't buy the five foot two story. I'm five-eight and when I was still in the Navy weighed 165-170 lbs. I was able to fit in a 12"x16" fuel cell access with no problem with full respiratory and protective gear on. The boys in the Hunley might have been a little uncomfortable but they would have had no problem fitting being of average height which as some one pointed out was 5'8" tall and approximately 140 lbs. Kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 05:46 PM

It may not have been that they needed to be 5'2" tall to fit into the sub. It might be that they needed to be that size to fit into the crankshaft. Longer legs and torsos might have gotten in the way of the crank. we'll only know when they get the bodies out.

And that is only one reason they need to exhume and examine the bodies. There are a lot of unanswered questions and only a complete examination of all the evidence can start to answer them.

Also, as to why we are disturbing the bodies. Would they have been distrubed if the Confederate Navy had the techniques and equipment to raise the sub in the first place? The first crew was "disturbed" and given full military burial. Men lost in Viet Nam are "disturbed" all the time to be given proper military burial. The passage of time doesn't change the fact that these were brave men who sacrificed their lives for the cause they believed in. They should be honored as such.

Of course, there will be people who will come down on both sides of the line on the use fo the confederate flag and honoring the supporters of slavery etc. We need to tune that out as static and focus on what they did and how they should be treated. We honor German dead from WWII. Should we not honor Southern dead too?

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 08:00 PM

Point well taken, Naemanson! Shall we just ignore these men who bravely died for a cause even if it be one we don't agree with? I had heard the rumour about being 5'2" but again, I have never seen documentary evidence to support it and let's face it, no war is written about so much as the Civil War and we're still learning about it! I seriously doubt a detail like that would escape the perusal of quite a few sharp eyed historians out there! It may be the truth but again as you so rightly point out, we won't know until they remove the remains to study and or inter them. Have a very good night and kindest reguards, Neil

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Wincing Devil
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 08:29 PM

I aggree with Greg F., It's grave robbing! It's a shame that wrecks like the Hunley and the Titanic are being desecrated like this.

Navy Hymn (Submariner's verse)

"Lord God, our power evermore,
Whose arm doth reach the ocean floor,
Dive with our men beneath the sea;
Traverse the depths protectively.
O hear us when we pray, and keep
Them safe from peril in the deep."

Wincing Devil Sorry, no witty quip today.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: rangeroger
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 08:44 PM

Went to the library today and checked out the Clive Cussler book "The Sea Hunters." Simon and Schuster 1996.

LEJ, Cussler says there were 3 submarines. The first was called the Pioneer and was designed by James McClintock with backing by Horace Hunley and Baxter Watson.When Farragut captured New Orleans, Hunley ordered the Pioneer scuttled to keep her out of Union hands.
This, supposedly, is the one in Jackson Square.Cussler says the size and shape do not match contemporary eyewitness accounts, however.

The second one was Pioneer II, or also American Diver.She sank in Mobile Bay during a squall.

Hunley then built the 3rd one with McClintock as advisor. Te Confederate Navy commandeered th vessel and promptly sank it, killing 5.

It was recovered and then sank again. killing Hunley and 7 others. It was once more recovered, and then went on to sink the USS Housatonic.

There was a story that went around New Orleans that " the Hunley would sink at a moment's notice and sometimes without it."

rr

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: catspaw49
Date: 10 Aug 00 - 08:53 PM

Thanks rr for the extra research.

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: ddw
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 12:46 AM

Rick — checked my books last night and found info that pretty closely resembled what rangeroger posted above. I also found some sketches, but there is little that can't be described almost as vividly as a picture would show it. The Hunley (according to all my souces) was 25 feet long, not 40 as mentioned in several earlier posts. It was made from a boiler that was cut lengthwise, fitted with tapered ends and welded back together. There were two small hatch/conning towers (about eight inches high), one at each end, from which the captain could see upward and forward through glass plates.

A ballast bar was fitted on the bottom that could be released by unscrewing bolts from inside and there were ballast tanks fitted on the sides. These could be flooded by simply opening seacocks and purged by hand pumps inside the sub.

Flooding the ballast tanks would take the Hunley just a few inches below the surface, then the diving planes were used to take it deeper or bring it back up — which, of course, required forward motion to make them operate.

There was a snorkle tube to bring in air while they were running shallow enough.

At the rear, mounted in front of the rudder and enclosed by an iron ring, was the propeller attached to a metal rod that was bent to resemble a skinny version of a car's crankshaft. With the full complement of crew working it could make just under four knots.

There was one other little point where my most trusted source differed with Rangeroger's. Burke Davis, in his book The Civil War: Strange & Fascinating Facts, says the Hunley was never a commissioned Confederate Navy ship. Hunley and the others involved were privateers who had license to sink union warships as prizes with the adjunct benefit of helping P.G.T. Beauregard break the blockade of Charleston Harbor. Some of her crews were volunteers from the CSA army and navy, but I believe some were civilians. Her commander when she went down was Lieutenant John Payne, an infantry officer.

david

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Sourdough
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 01:19 AM

I was lucky enough to be a part of the expedition looking for the Hunley. It was a great exerience for a lot of reasons, not the least of which was Clive Cussler.

For those of you that think that Clive Cussler went looking the Hunley for money, or even glory, I can tell you that you are wrong. Clive has a feeling about what he calls, "ships of destiny", ships that played a critical role at a climactic historical moment. He also has a great appreciation for bravery. Clive transmitted that to the sidescan sonar operators, to the divers and to all the ancillary personnel on the expedition. There were people there who had been diving on the Atocha. I remember one guy with a piece of eight he had brought up. However, these guys were diving without hope of treasure. What they wanted was a personal relationship with this remarkable vessel and the incredibly brave men who crewed her. Each time she sunk, she was raised up, the dead removed and they continued learning how to navigate in three dimensions. Remember, Man had only travelled in a two dimensional world before the Hunley. Now they had to deal with things such as neutral buoyancy, pitch, yaw, and do it all essentially blind. One man, the Lietenant who was the commanding officer of the Hunley actually survived a sinking that killed most of the crew. He immediately whent back to apply what they had learned.

Someone earlier mentioned the concern of disturbing the dead. THe NUMA folks believed, and I with them, that disturing was not the right word, "recovering and honoring" was far more accurate. I remember one evening sitting around with the divers and the subject of diving on a German submarine of the Carolina Coast came up. I thad been sunk by aircraft in 1943 or so but had only recently been located by divers. People were going down into the hull and taking out souvenirs and even pieces of the skeletons. Badges, equipment, and even a skull had shown up in a at least one dive shop. The disgust these NUMA people had for the kind of vulture who would pick over the remains of a ship and crew for personal reasons was complete. I have no doubt that they would never be a part of something that was the slightest bit like that.

Scientists will learn a lot from the Hunley but the real lesson will be learned by all of those people who visit the raised vessel, seeing with their own eyes the boat that changed the history of the world.

Clive Cussler could have taken the money he made on "Raise the Titanic" (the movie rights were very valuable) and bought all the toys he had ever wanted. Instead, he put the money into the NUMA Foundation. The first effort was to find The Bonhomme Richard lost of Scarborough Head. John Paul Jones had been raiding the English Coast to bring the reality of the American colonies rebellion to Great Britain. When his ship met a Royal Navy warship, the two started firing. THe RIchard was pounded badly, far worse than the English captain knew. When the English trumpeted through the powder smoke, "Do you wish to surrender?", Jones answered, "I have not yet begun to fight". The British, soon surrendered not knowing that the Richard had been hulled and was sinking. Jones transferred his crew to his prize and watched his own ship drift away and then sink.

The story had affected Clive and he was determined to find the ship, hopefully in time for the Bicentennial. He put his own money into the search and he pestered the Navy until they supplied him with great search equipment. Meanwhile, he and others he had caught up in his enthusiasm pored over logs, letters and diaries.

I am writing all of this to make it clear that the Hunley search was run with great deal of respect for her crew. The worst you can say about Clive and those around him is that they are selfish because they are doing something they love.

Sourdough

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: rangeroger
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 02:06 AM

Wow.

Sourdough, I'm really impressed.I had been a Dirk Pitt fan for some time, so when I read "The Sea Hunters" a couple of years ago I was doubly taken with Clive Cussler. I got that feeling about him that you described so aptly.

I'm going to reread the book now that I have it again. Is your picture in it?

rr

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 02:10 AM

Excellent info David.......and 'Dough, I am always impressed with the depth of your experiences....no pun intended!

Spaw

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 04:09 AM

Fascinating thread. When I saw this story in the press I thought( knowing you interest in Civil War and wrecks etc) Ibet there'll be discussion on the Mudcat. Now if Aine (damn, fada-less)makes it a subject for a song challenge it might qualify as a musical thread.
I've read a lot of Clive Cussler, usually while on holiday, and I'd heard of his interest.. Thanks, guys, for all the information.
RtS (now a slightly less ignorant old git)

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 05:44 AM

Thanks Sourdough,

No wonder I enjoy this site! But what was the outcome on the Bonhome Richard? Did he find it? Is he still looking?

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 08:34 AM

Let's say that my father, a much decorated veteran of WWII & heroically killed in action, was buried in the only known example of the Ace Coffin Company's Model 209- a revolutionary coffin design of its time. Drawings, blueprints, and detailed written descriptions of the coffin by those who built it exist. The same documentation is available for the Model 208 that preceeded it. But there are rumors that the 209 did not allow its occupants to 'rest in eternal comfort' as advertised.

The International Society for the History of Necrology (a listed charitable organization: they are all, all, honourable men) decides the "Mystery of the 209" and the questions about its design flaws need to be answered. The Society also wants to add this coffin to their museum exhibit "The Pine Box Comes of Age". They are supported in this by a large group of individuals who inexplicably enjoy playing dress-up in 1940's clothing and pretending to be Undertakers and Morticians of the WWII period- as long as they don't have to deal with real dead bodies, embalming fluid, etc. and only do it on weekends.

Therefore, it is appropriate for this Association to dig Dad up, chuck him out of the Model 209, rebury him (with honors, of course), etc. etc??

Wonder how many people would welcome this kind of treatment of their parents............

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: MMario
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 09:34 AM

the above is a very different situation then reverent and respectable treatment of bodies lost during an engagement during war. These are NOT loved ones who have been laid to rest under the aegis of ANY religion. The situation with the Hunley is more akin to the discovery of a body at the bottom of a well, or in a bricked up room, which is then given (what most would call) "decent burial" .

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 12:20 PM

This has been so interesting. I haven't had much luck with a couple of the "old time music threads" I've started recently (as in getting info that I didn't already have) but when it comes to historically fascinating situations, Mudcat is great. Thanks, I've learned a lot. Also, I apologise for the quip about "money to be made" regarding the motivation in raising the ship. Obviously the motivation runs through a very large gamut.

Rick

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 12:25 PM

Thanks to all for the great info on the Hunley.

Those men should indeed be given full military honors and their coffins draped with the Confederate flag. I say this as a Canadian.

All soldiers of all armies deserve the same honor. They all believed they were defending their homes, their families, and their nation. Why else would they risk their lives in a floating coffin?

I'm sure, however, there will be a whole lot of clever and highly paid lawyers who think otherwise, and they'll raise sheer bloody hell over it. Wait and see. A pox on all of them.

Subject: RE: The Confederate Sub 'Hunley', any info?
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Aug 00 - 01:24 PM

Little Hawk, I agree with you and I'm a Yank!

Rick, you can rest assured that there is a sleazy lawyer or politician somewhere plotting to make money on this. It just isn't the crew who raised her and are examining her.