After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Mrrzy
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 10:27 AM

I agree that he was available and American first, and that him being Jewish was just the icing on the cake. And I thought they slit his throat.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: M.Ted
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:55 AM

Read the thread, GUEST, Feder says he was given permission to post the article--

> With her permission, I posted an article written by Catherine Ford for the Calgary >Herald, a mainstream newspaper in a large Canadian city.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 12:01 PM

Okay, DougR, tell us about the American/Canadian War. There seems to be 3000 miles of agreed upon border which was negoitiated civilly. You are mistaken when you imply that all conflicts are solved by armed conflict. There will be no "answer" in the "Isreali/Palestinian question", which it isn't. It is a war and there will be two losers. Sure Isreal will kill a lot more Plaestinians because they are better armed, thanks to the US, but will they be any more secure? No. They are just breading a new crop of folks who feel put upon, hopeless, helpless and powerless. And we, the US, are doing less toward trying promote peace in the Middle East than we did unde that last 4 administrations, going back to Jimmy Carter. And we're not doing anything to promote peace in the Kasmire/Pakistani/India conflict, either. This administration is Hell Bent on a World War, is drawing up plans as I write this, and will call anyone a traitor who questions them. Sound familiar?

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:07 PM

bobert...ever hear of "54/40 or fight"? That was the US battle cry after Lewis and Clark declared the latitude and longitude of the US north western border with Canada upon their survey of the Louisiana Purchase. Britain refused to accept this, because they coveted the harbors in and around Vancouver and present-day Seattle. I'm fairly sure a limited war was fought in the area before resolving the issue.

Primitive hunter-gatherer societies seem,in some cases,to have been able to live together peaceably side by side when an over-abundance of resources were available, so that tribal competition was minimized. Historically, as these tribes developed into kingdoms, the accompanying demand for resources to meet growing population needs increased pressure to dominate or absorb neighboring tribes or kingdoms. As kingdoms reached the status of nation-states, the need for the expansion of territory and power has historically increased. Periods of expansion and war have been limited not by communication and compromise (Chamberlain and Hitler), but by military defeat and domination by a power which imposes peace from above and according to its own terms.

Now, it may be that the population of the world today stands apart from all other people in the history of this world in regard to war and peace, but I certainly see no signs of it. My deduction is that we have a simple choice : be aware of the history of human interaction as demonstrated over thousands of years and make the very best of it, or believe in the general peaceful nature and good will of humans toward one another and proceed in a well-intentioned but completely ineffectual way.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: InOBU
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM

Well, in fact, we seem to have evoled into an animal which committs war. Now, it is time to evolve again or become extinct. It is a choice up to each of us as individuals, join our Neander cousins, or reach for the future. CHeers Larry

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 01:32 PM

Yes, I'm pretty sure there was a limited war, LEJ. But why would we want Canada anyway? :>) **GBG** (Don't want to start another war).

DougR

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM

Danged, Lonesome EJ, guess you got the ol' bobert on that one. Guess ol' DougR is right after all. All issues have to be solved thru war or threats of war. Heck, I'm going down to the recruitin' office and sign up. Gonna go an' kill me some... ahhh... Arabs, no make that so Phillipinos...and some Irans and some Koreans commies... And then... ahhh, maybe if I have any bullets left, some Somalians... Some Iraqis... some, ahhhh, heck, might as well just kill a few Cubans... and, ahhh, heck, after that big ol' stinck with the Lympics... maybe a few French folk and some of them commie Ruskies.... BOBERT! BOBERT! You got a Ruskie on the payroll. THAT ONE DON'T COUNT. HE'S ONE OF THE GOOD EN' RUSKIES. Sorry folks, ol' bobert just funnin' and got a little carried away. But now that I'm back, I'm stcickin to the ideal that peaceful resolution is not only possible but on this shrinking planet.... necessary. Peace. Bobert.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 06:09 PM

An over-generalized appraisal of the world, as you see it, Bobert, is you see it as you wish it were. I wish it were that way. Unfortunately, it is not. Maybe someday.

DougR

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 07:53 PM

"I have a dream...." Martin Luther King. Yeah, DougR, if we don't aim for high ideals, we'll get nothing. No goals, no progress. I don't want my kid and his kids to have to clean up the mess we left because of the "Well, that's the way it is" mentality of the folks on this watch...

"You may call me a dreamer, but I'm not the only one..." John Lennon.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 09:00 PM

Yeah, Lonesome and Doug, there was an altercation between the US and Canada over the boundary in the west. There was a joint occupation agreement in effect. Pres. Polk was elected on the Oregon question and his "Fifty-four forty or fight" slogan. There was much argument on paper from both sides, with the usual posturing, but finally Britain acceeded to the current boundary with the Treaty of Oregon in 1846. Their reasons were several- In a war, Britain stood to lose Canada to a powerful neighbor. The British Navy could not participate in defence because of the location. The territory between the 49th parallel and the Columbia was small. Many American settlers (as well many from the British Isles) had come to the area, and were opposed to any conflict.
There was some sort of conflict on one of the islands- members of a ships crew coming ashore for water or supplies? - and I think some pigs paid the supreme price. Can't remember now; this is trivia that isn't in the better history books.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 10:44 PM

bobert, although I think I'm right, I hope you are.

Thanks dicho, for the history lesson. I suppose our earlier altercations with English Canada during the 1812 War could also be considered a quarrel over boundaries.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: mack/misophist
Date: 07 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM

"They make a desolation and call it peace". "War is diplomacy, continued by other means". "Ultima ratio regis".
All different. All the same. All true. all false.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: WyoWoman
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 12:32 AM

Welp, I'm not saying pax romana is always a bad thing. Depends on the romana. Whatever keeps people from each other's throats -- particularly when one or both parties have nuclear or biological weapons. But ... keeping that kind of "peace" perpetually through arms without working on the underlying affronts to justice will never be anything but an expensive and ultimately resource-exhausting proposition. Justice is the key, but when it's been denied and bungled and tangled from so many directions for so incredibly long ... it's pretty hard to see how much untangling can occur.

A pax on all y'all!

xo/ww

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 04:59 PM

I hesitate to confront a historian such as dicho, but during the berlin blockade I thought a few other military and civil aircraft helped with the ferrying of essential suppplies - not just Americans.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM

"Opposing sides sit down at the table after one of them has defeated the other in a war."

Noone defeated the other side in Northern Ireland. Both sides realised that if they didn't find a way of stopping the fighting it would go on for ever.

Not a perfect peace, not a safe peace - but a peace of sorts. And if there is going to be an end to the bloodshed in the Holy Land, that is how it's going to come, not through the stronger side crushing the weaker side until the violence stops, because that is never going to work.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:54 PM

I stopped out of even reading this thread for the last few days, because from experience, so often they turn into dispiriting and destructive quarrels. Reading through it today I was really pleased to see that it hasn't happened, and it's stayed as a honest attempt by people to explain their different points of view.

Wars drive people crazy, and "irregular wars" drive them crazier still. People do things and feel things and say things that just don't make sense, and that they never would in ordinary life. The consequences is horrible atrocities, like the obscene killing of Daniel Pearl, with its accompaniment by a style of anti-semitism borrowed from European history, which has nothing to do with the culture of Pakistan.

"Turning the other cheek" doesn't mean giving in to violence.It means refusing to be drawn into the embrace of violence. I am sometimes surprised at how freely people sneer at the expression - more especially people who generally might say they have a lot of regard for the man from whom the expression comes.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 05:57 PM

Well, McGrath, I suppose we will see who is correct and maybe soon, eh? It certainly appears to me that Israel and Palestine are headed for all out war. I hope not, but it doesn't look good.

As to Northern Ireland, it doesn't appear to me that total peace has come to that Island yet, but only appears to be a lull in the unrest.

DougR

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 08 Mar 02 - 07:08 PM

No it doesn't look good for the Holy Land, and it looks as if it only too likely to get even worse. But if (and I hope its when) peace comes, I am sure it will have to be through an agreement by people on both sides that they have had enough, not through any military victory short of genocide.

As for Northern Ireland, true enough there's no total peace, and there's always the possibility that things could slip back into war once more. But there's always that risk after every conflict, and it's balanced by a hope and a determination that it will not.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: michaelr
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 01:18 AM

Wyo - the pax romana you describe was known in recent history as the Cold War. I'm not sure the current state of affairs is better, but I still would not want to revisit THAT one.

Regards,
Michael

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 03:31 PM

The fact that at the end of a war imposed conditions are laid on the table and agreed upon- whether they end hostilities for a period of years, or whether they lay the groundwork for more war in the foreseeable future - by its very nature implies a period of peace. Why, then, is it necessary for war to be fought? In other words, since we know that communication will eventually become essential, why haven't we evolved enough to head unerringly in that direction?

I think that when two or more countries cannot agree upon crucial points and decide to make war against each other, only the governments should meet on the battlefield.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 03:35 PM

Because the peace that ensues after war invariably favors the point of view of the victor, the victor gaining concessions from the loser that would not have been granted without coercion.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 03:55 PM

Or, as Klausewitz said, the purpose of war is to bring about a more amenable frame of mind on the part of the enemy.

A

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: DougR
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:05 PM

Yep, LEJ, and Amos, I think you both nailed it.

DougR

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:25 PM

And that doesn't work in some conflicts. Sometimes you have conflicts where the weaker side is never going to give in, no matter how many times it's been beaten. Ireland was one such cases. I suspect Palestine is another.

I'm not saying "Isn't that heroic." The kind of thing that comes out of that kind of conflict is likely to be very ugly. But ending that kind of conflict can't be achieved by thinking in terms of victory.

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: Amos
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 07:31 PM

Interesting point, Sir Grath. In the absence of a partisan victory, I would imagine we get back to Ebbie's point - the only victory would be some kind of two-sided re-invention of terms which would provide a plus-sum resolution (win for both sides).

But for that to occur, a certain amount of new, fresh attention, unburdened by old deposits, would have to come into play, and there's such a bloody shortage in the world, donchaknow?

A

Subject: RE: After Pearl's murder: I Am A Jew
From: toadfrog
Date: 09 Mar 02 - 09:38 PM

Feder, old GUEST, there is a convention on this site that when you post stuff not related to music, it is appropriate to designate it with the initials BS. So far as I am concerned, it is NOT appropriate to copy inflammatory stuff from extreme rightwing publications and paste it into threads. Or to past political stuff into threads at all. That is called "trolling." It is an abuse of hospitality.

And kindly explain just why is it relevant that the author of this stuff gave you permission to jam it down our throats?