BS: Shooting enthusiasts only

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: 3refs
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 05:35 PM

Soldiers, Firefighters, Police Officers(I almost said Policemen)have my unwavering, fixed, enduring, resolute, whatever freakin adjective you want to use, devotion and loyalty. Provided you don't screw up, according to my standards, in the cultural atmosphere I was raised in and have come to love. Now I'll get called a bigot! Warmongering bigot!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:21 PM

Same here, 3. My beef is with the politicians. But my beef is useless... a waste of breath. I shouldn't have said any of it but it pisses me off.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Emma B
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 06:47 PM

"Now I'll get called a bigot! Warmongering bigot!"

Well MY distaste was for the video which glorified (with apalling lyrics about 'killing machines') the use of firearms to take human life at distances which served to totally depersonalize the 'target'
As was said by another 'Only the mentally sick rejoice in killing others' however the impressive the technology!

I opened the thread because I actually DO admire the skilful use of firearms for sporting activities (I have shot skeet in the past); as Rapaire commented 'I thought this thread was going to be about something else entirely.'
I AM however appalled by the presentation of modern warfare as some kind of macho arcade game and the weapons designed purely as killing machines as big boys toys and consider this video falls into that category.

As I mentioned, there has very recently been a tragic loss of 12 lives in this area by someone going on a disturbed 'killing spree' which just adds to the sense of offence when opening that video.

I can't recall using any words like 'bigot' - I reserve that for people who espouse racism etc on the forum - and prefer not to diminish such words by inappropiate usage.

Enjoy what you like but don't expect that kind of enjoyment to be shared by everyone and don't attempt to put words like 'warmongering bigot' into other peoples mouths - I don't think I can recall seeing any such comment or suggestion in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 07:22 PM

Using a Sharps .50 caliber "buffalo rifle" Billy Dixon shot Minimic, a Comanche medicine mad, at 1,200 to 1,500 feet at the Second Battle of Adobe Wells.

John Sedgewick was shot and killed by a Confederate sharpshooter at over 1,000 yards (910 meters) at the Battle of Spotsylvania Courthouse on May 9, 1964.

The Whitworth rifle, purchased by the Confederacy from Britain during the US Civil War, had an effective range of 800 to 1,000 yards (730 to 910 meters) and a "total range" of 1,500 yard (1.400 meters).

My US Rifle, Caliber .30, Model of 1917 (the "Enfield") has a rear sight calibrated to 1,800 yards; it has been fired at 850 yards (factory ammunition) and shot a group six (6) inches across (not by me!).

There have been many "mile shooters", or at least long range, shots in wars over the years (and none of the above used telescopic sights). The archers at Agincourt couldn't see the faces of the cross-bowmen and French knights; the Persian archers and slingers at Thermopylae couldn't look into the eyes of the Greeks. Even in modern bayonet training you are trained to "aim your bayonet at the throat" and never look at your opponents face.

I abhor music that celebrates killing machines and men as simple killing machines. No machine, anywhere, will kill anyone unless a human agency causes it to. I could (but don't!) keep a hand grenade on my coffee table and nothing would happen until I or someone activated it.

I respect good shooting, I do NOT respect those who think that there is joy in killing another person. And this is the last post I'll make to this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 08:02 PM

EB... "Enjoy what you like but don't expect that kind of enjoyment to be shared by everyone and don't attempt to put words like 'warmongering bigot' into other peoples mouths..."

Ahhhh... you just "put words in other people's mouths" when you said "Enjoy what you like...".

The original post from 3 made no such reference to "enjoyment" and none of the posts from 3 on this thread have done so. And none of the other posts have even alluded to said "enjoyment".

For you to put such a twist on his words is rude at best and I believe you owe 3 an apology.

And don't get all pissy... his post you cite could not be said to be aimed directly at you. But your post is certainly aimed at him. You are putting words in other peoples mouths. And why you bother to do so is puzzling to me.

If I have erred in my understanding, please edify me.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 09:13 PM

I must post a correction: John Sedgewick was shot and killed on May 9, 1864 -- not 1964.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: GUEST,Riginslinger
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 10:07 PM

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1206553/British-sniper-tells-moment-shot-Taliban-commander--TWO-KILOMETRES-away.html



b

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: olddude
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:03 PM

Rap
I will come down sometime and show ya some handgun stuff that will blow your socks off ... I like to line up empty 12 gauge cartridges but if I told ya the distance you would not believe me ... with a 40 cal glock

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: olddude
Date: 14 Jun 10 - 11:08 PM

Oh and ya don't stand them up, you lay them down, the trick is to pass the bullet through the spent tube and out the back side of the brass ..

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 03:52 AM

On the whole, and after due consideration, I have come to the conclusion that I would approve
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of the idea of shooting these enthusiasts.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 02:12 PM

From my last post "And none of the other posts have even alluded to said "enjoyment"."

I was informed by PM that EB was referring to enjoying shooting sports and not to enjoying the YT vids.

My apologies, EB, for that particular clause in my post.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: DougR
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 07:22 PM

Rapaire: Wow, I had no idea air rifles today can shoot that far. When I was a wee lad, I rarely left the house without my Daisy air rifle. Mine chouldn't shoot across the street with great accuracy.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 15 Jun 10 - 10:15 PM

Did I mention that mine sports a 4-12 x 40 scope?

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:21 PM

I'm not sure who John Sedgewick was, but the famous last words of John Sedgwick were reported as "Those bastards couldn't hit an elephant from th..." (As reported in various histories of Sedgwick County, Kansas - named for the man.)

A traditional "standard of excellence" for long range rifle shooting is the "minute of arc group." This is a feat sufficiently difficult that record books are kept on the relatively few able to achieve it.

The odds are raised a bit since one is permitted to shoot the required "five consecutive rounds" before drawing the circle that subtends an arc of one minute from the firing line.

One minute of arc at one mile is 18.43 inches.

With excellent equipment and training, and under suitable wind and lighting, a person capable of shooting minute of arc groups with resonable consistency stands a fairly good chance of hitting an "intended target" approximating a person (or live game) sometimes, but the truly exceptional individual shots include a significant element of chance.

Having once killed a viciously charging jack rabbit at a fairly accurately measured 120 yards with an offhand shot with a .357 Mag handgun, I feel intitled to claim once having made an "impossible shot." I certainly wouldn't claim to be able to do it again, consistently, on demand. (The "10" ring on a 50 ft gallery pistol target is about 3 arc minutes wide, and at the time I did have a couple of fairly recent "9 out of 10" 3 minute groups from my competitive target shooting days. But, unfortunately, all my best groups were from practice sessions.)

The combat "solo operative" (sniper) is intended to "engage targets" where there is a reasonable probability of a successful hit; but the additional intent is to keep the enemy aware that they are vulnerable, thereby limiting their ability to move freely without lookking at the hills and shrubbery at all times. A "close miss" has about as much tactical effectiveness as a hit.

The theoretical purpose is similar to deploying land mines, which are not mainly intended to kill the enemy, but only to limited enemy mobility. They are supposed to be used to deny the use of land areas. Regulations require that each and every mine placed must be accurately mapped, with maps filed with upper command echelons. Minefields must always be visibly marked until they are cleared. It is thus obvious that only the losers will ever leave mines behind by being forced to retreat without clearing them. It could be expected that the winners would maintain the markings until the maps are available to clearance people (via treaty or capture?).

[Draw your own conclusions.]

John

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 02:46 PM

At 100m, I placed a 6mm plywood board upon which I had put a 100mm long strip of duct tape. I put a 28g rifled slug in the top barrel of my 28" vent rib, full over modified, Baikal (light weight and the best shotgun I ever shouldered... even better than Bro's 30,000+ USD custom Browning). I put a hole in the centre of tape. I put another slug in and did NOT put another hole in the tape. Never "practiced" with slugs again with that shotgun.

Just wish someone had been there to see it.

I've made hundreds of great shots with hunting long guns, but after a blowback in my right eye from a split casing in a WIN 9422 (cheap Mexican ammo), I have never been the same "shot" I was with open sights. Hand guns are not allowed here.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 03:09 PM

Being a rimfire (i.e., .22) enthusiast since my totally misspent youth...

I once had a .22 single action revolver (not a very good one!). I used to walk in the woods along the river side of the levees and snap-shoot trash -- beer bottle, cans, "targets of opportunity" at various distances. I got pretty good out to about 50 yards. Then I ended up in the Army, as a Military Policeman, and had to be "familiarized" on the .45 automatic. The Operations Sergeant took me out to a range and put up a man-sized target, usually used on the rifle range, at something like 50 feet. He took up his Post Pistol Team Member stance with his super-duper accurate .45 and proceeded to fire 5 rounds, slow fire and carefully aimed, into the target (which he grouped about a foot across). Then it was my turn, and I did hit the target....

Next was rapid fire. "You'll never need this in police work," he said with scorn, "but I have to teach you anyway." (This is an exact quote -- no rapid fire is needed in police work.) So he hit the target five times. It was my turn. Using an "arms room .45 -- that is, not exactly a precision weapon -- I automatically dropped into a "combat crouch" and shot a six-inch group in the target's "head".

He grunted and didn't speak to me all the way back. He didn't care much for me before and he actively disliked me after that. Frankly, I didn't care -- I did some excellent shooting and got a break at a time I really needed one.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:42 PM

Three rural air rifle memories from my youth:I got my first air rifle at about ten, and a 22 calibre at about 13. (Don't tey any of these at home).

The first was proping shotgun shells and 22 calibre bullets up in wooden slots and trying to set them off with air gun shot, from a distance....(I don't recall us ever setting one off, though we may have)?

Second was throwing live 22 calibre shells in an open camp fire, and running behind trees before they shot off. It was scary at 13 years of age...maybe would be even now.

Third was a memory of trying to shoot a nuisance squirrel on the top of our farm barn from our back door. I had the squrrel in my sights and pulled the trigger. Just at that time, my fathers head popped up from the entry stairs...I got him top of his hairless head. I was in real trouble, and my father had a small head scar, where the air shot hit, for the rest of his life....a reminder (to me) of just how foolish it is to give a gun to a young person.

I inherited a few long guns. But, turned them all in to the police a few years back...to be distroyed. I'm not preaching. It was just the right thing to do for me, at that time in my life. I don't have any need to hunt or shoot anything. But, I now like taking pictures of animals I would have hunted in an earlier phase of my life.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 04:59 PM

Haven't read this thread- but with 72 or so posts, shooting enthusiasts seems to be a popular sport.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 05:29 PM

When I was in high school, I joined the Rifle Club. The school had a (50? 75? foot) rifle range in the gym, with target butts at the end, and covers that folded up when the range wasn't in use. .22s only, of course.

An uncle was a member of a local rifle club in town, which used this range, and he suggested I might want to try it. I was able to borrow a .22 rifle for a period, and then bought a Stevens 11-pound barrel target rifle. We were taught safe weapons handling and range procedure, and of course how to squeeeeeeeeeeeze the trigger, how to be rock-solid in any of the three basic firing positions, etc.

Incidentally, the club was affiliated as a junior club with the American Rifle Association (if that's the name), and through them we had a subsidized source of ammunition, in the end underwritten by the Army, as I understood it. The Army underwrote it because they wanted to bring along a stream of experienced riflemen.

After I left high school I don't think I ever fired that weapon again, and finally got rid of it (I forget how) maybe forty years later because my wife didn't want a firearm in the house with my teenage son.

When I was in the Army, the first day on the rifle range, I remember being for the first time ready to fire, in the prone position. An officer came by and said to me: "Now that's good form!" I didn't tell him where I got it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:09 PM

Ed T... "Second was throwing live 22 calibre shells in an open camp fire, and running behind trees before they shot off."

They don't do that. The leads melts and the powder explodes. You could get some hot lead or ashes on you, but not a bullet. Even if it did do that, it wouldn't even leave a bruise. Worst case would be the brass being propelled backwards from the powder being set off.

Now, an unopened can of beans is nasty. When that goes, there is real danger for anyone close to the fire.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 06:54 PM

Unc, that was probably ammunition supplied by the Civilian Marksmanship Program, which still runs rifle and air rifle matches. Back in the day it was run by the Dept. of the Army (and had been since 1898!), nowadays it's a separate non-profit with offices in Ohio and Alabama. It's just the place to go for a .30-40 Krag with a rusty, cracked barrel and part of a stock. They still supply (at a cost) .22 ammunition of the Boy Scouts, shooting clubs, 4-H, and similar shooting programs. Back in 1956, when I shot with a high school club which still exists a box of fifty .22 Long Rifle cartridges cost me USD 0.25, the next year it went up to 0.35, and the third year it was a half a dollar.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:03 PM

Gnu, I did not say they were lethal, but they did pop. Check out Mythbusters:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfoJAwlUopI

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Ed T
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:09 PM

Gnu, picture yourself at 13, there was no Mythbusters then, nor sources of information, like the internet. We ran like hell and heard pops, (casing or not), and it was indeed scary....and I have a few friends who were there to certify that as a fact.

We ate beans, no comparison...just smelled bad. Now, maybe an unopened can of beans (or anythinbg else) in a campfire could possibly explode.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: gnu
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:10 PM

Oh, Ed, they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jun 10 - 07:50 PM

Yes, Ed. They can. So can cans of chili, cans of Campbell's soup, and bottle of Coca-Cola. Taking the bullet out of .22 shell and some tobacco out of a cigarette, pouring the powder from the .22 into the cigarette and then carefully replacing the tobacco was another thing well-thought of in Certain Sections of the country among Certain People I could name but shan't. So was urinating on someone else's campfire. Ah, for the days of my youth!

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:05 AM

Making great shots with a rifle or handgun on a range is fun, it is no different then people who make trick shots with a pool cue ... However being in war and using a weapon on another is not the same thing at all... And people who tout that never been there or never known anyone who had. No soldier or police office that ever had to use their weapon walked away without being screwed up .. some sooner some later but you will never hear anyone talk about it. In fact what you do hear is depression, and terrible remorse eventually.   Shooting holes in a target is just a fun sport, no different than any other sport ... using a weapon in battle is entirely different. At the time of conflict you may hear them say something. It is afterwords when the realization of what they done sets in ... then it is a lifetime of baggage they carry. No amount of medals, no pats on the back or flag waving parades ever fixes it. Have a look at someone like Audey Murphy the most decorated war hero of WWII. Have a look at his later life struggles with depression and alcohol and panic attacks ..

Don't confuse the two ...

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: olddude
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 09:19 AM

Most of the folks on this thread acquired their skills for hunting. And like me hunted to put some food on the table not because we liked killing anything. A real hunter doesn't want to wound a deer they want to kill it for food. When no one in my family wanted venison any more and I was the only one eating the deer, I quit hunting .. A deer when I was growing up was a valuable source of food ... My neck of the woods kids learned firearm skills before they knew how to ride a bike ... Schools still close on the first day of deer season back home...I also have never met a "real" hunter that enjoyed killing any deer, they enjoyed putting food on the table.

Subject: RE: BS: Shooting enthusiasts only
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jun 10 - 10:35 AM

Amongst my folks, it was said that you became a Real Hunter when you had the animal in your sights, knew you could "take" it, and then said to yourself, "I have a freezer full of meat. I don't need this one." and let it pass.