BS: Men in their 'proper places'

Subject: Men in their 'proper places'
From: gnomad
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 04:33 AM

The thread "Women in their proper places" got me thinking; the women and the men both seem to have strong ideas (not always identical) about the proper place for women, but apart from "Keeping women happy" there seems little comment on the proper place for men.

Could it be (as I have been assured by more than one woman) that we have no business asking? Or is it as a more forthright woman told me, and man's place is "In the wrong"?

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 04:39 AM

Your place is neither in front of us nor behind us, but at our side. We're all just people, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 06:00 AM

gnomad
If you don't know you certainly have no business asking! That's for you to find out!
right now my proper place is negotiable (for once in my life) and that's why I proudly proclaim I am "jumping with Joy" - at every ceilidh and cajun hop in the locale.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 06:14 AM

May I suggest two proper places?
1. Barracks 2. Marching with the band

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From:
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:05 AM

Keeping the women happy sounds like a good start.....

KRis

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: kendall
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:09 AM

What Carol C said.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:50 AM

Well, most men like to believe their proper place is inside women, but they don't talk about it much. I don't think this idea is as widely shared on the distaff side!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:08 AM

Although I might have to agree with this idea of Amos'... given the right circumstances. (Ahem... )

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:34 AM

If a man's place is keeping a woman happy, it would seem to foller that a woman's is keeping a man happy. It is EVEN possible that these postulates are incorrectly bounded by gender, and the general abstract principle should be that a human's place is making humans happy.

Wodda concept!!! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:39 AM

Side by side, guys, side by side. We're all in this together.

Linn

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: RichM
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:46 AM

What Kendall said (What CarolC said...)
And keep yerself happy, first of all. Then you can share that happiness with someone else, male or female. If you so choose.

Rich

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From:
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:50 AM

well said, Amos

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 01:44 PM

People should not try to make each other happy. That can become an unhealthy co-dependency. Happiness is a byproduct, not a goal. Reach for some good goal and happiness often results.

The most inspiring thing I have heard on that subject-- tho it is hard to live-- is that real intimacy comes not from being close, it comes from standing side by side and looking out towards something else the two people care about and commit themselves to.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 02:03 PM

Well, really, there is no other way to make anyone --even yourself --happy, other than by winning your way to a goal of SOME kind, even if only partly known. That's where the big H comes from, after all!

Sharing that condition certainly fulfills the requirement.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 03:08 PM

No, the point was the effort, not the win. The change in affect from joining with someone for something greater than themselves or one another. Perhaps even greater intimacy comes from not winning, yet persisting.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 03:09 PM

For either a man or a woman, finding one's "proper place" can become a lifetime occupation. I think that to become enlightened means (among other things) to become aware that one is always in one's proper place, regardless of exterior circumstances.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 03:37 PM

Agree to Side by side. Happiness is something we find by sharing the joys and the travails of life with those we care for (Of either gender) There are times when each of us must step back however so the other might shine. Kindest regards, neil

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 04:18 PM

Intimacy is not the same thing as happiness. Happiness is wholly dependent on taking action toward some envisioned or sensed goal and communicating in the direction of that goal. Efforts which do not overcome SOME obstacle toward the goal are not conducive to happiness. Too many loses and even the desire to communicate goes away.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: harpgirl
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 04:52 PM

...hmmmm, men "in their proper places?????"

under........ or over........behind.......in front.....sideways....

gosh, am I missing any places????

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 04:55 PM

Accordong to my cousin Rufus, a man's place, and I quote: "Why, Bobberz, I'll til ya wadz a manz place. Eny danged place hez happenz ta be, dats where. Ef eats behindz da Sweet Sprengs Store drenkin wid Clets and der boys den dats where hes place es, an ef Iz driving en my Chevette den dat's where Iz es, an...."

Ol' Bobert goinna stick with CarolC since she is leading Amos by a score of 3 to 2, No, make that 4 to 2 now...

Actually, most men know the answer to this one, but just (play) dumb (wink, wink). Right, boys?

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: wysiwyg
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 05:49 PM

Amos, I am speaking narrowly to the point you raised about mena nd women "making" each other "happy," not debating whether winning is part of happiness. I am speaking to the concept that intimacy is one goal that poften leads to the byproduct of happiness.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: alanabit
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 05:55 PM

I like it when me and my girl both get into the right position...

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Mr Red
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 06:53 PM

WYSIWYG
I beg to differ - we should be allowed to try to make someone happy. Provisos abound - are we doing it to please ourselves, does the target want to be made happy, if not then don't!
and will it be done in a way that actually gives happiness?
clearly it is not for everyone and not at all times but not "never" either. I work on the principle if I don't know if, why, when or whether I have no business trying.
but when happiness can be given properly it rewards the givers too.
sensitvity is what I am saying.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: khandu
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 07:45 PM

But if we are dependant of someone else to make us happy, we will not be happy.

I cannot speak for others. I can only say that my place is exactly where I am at the moment. Tomorrow is another day, another set of circumstances, another pile of challenges. Hopefully, I will be in the "proper place" to meet them.

Each man must find their own "proper place".

khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: The Pooka
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:03 PM

I believe WYSIWYG Susan is suggesting that there are higher values that personal happiness---my own *or* my loved one's (which, if enhanced by me, in turn enhances my own as noted above, & thus is not altogether unselfishly pursued). This is a tough lesson. Most good ones are.

With Mr Red, Susan, I would respectfully demur on the ex cathedra proclamation (fergive me fadduh) that "People should not try to make each other happy." Putting it that way is a wee bit absolute, there. And while such effort indeed "can become unhealthy co-dependency", it does not *necessarily*.

But I agree that there are far more important things than happiness. Fortunately--given that *un*happiness, like sin, so pervades this world. (Saaay - is there a connection there?)

Now what all this says about A Man's Place, I forget right now. However, I just remembered I gotta go wash the dishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:08 PM

All this talk about side-by-side reminded me that I found out how to make love back to back the other day. The missus wern't impressed when I told her though.

Invite another couple...;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:24 PM

Ya know, sometimes I just want to throw up my hands. If you will read what I said, instead of whatever the confusion was you were reacting to, you will find we are not that far apart. JEEZ, Louise!!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to make others happy. Of COURSE it isn't an end in itself. It is still a perfectly good thing to do. Making people rich is, also, even though they still have to clear up what good being so will do them and how to use it best.

A.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: GUEST,Lyle
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:32 PM

I was going to give you my opinion on this, but my wife won't let me.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 08:32 PM

Maybe the distinction that's being missed is "need".

If I enjoy doing things for others that add to their happiness, and they enjoy having me do them, we've probably got a pretty healthy situation going on. Especially if it's a two way street.

However, if I need to do things to make them happy... if I am attached to the idea that I can control how other people feel, and if they need someone else to make them happy, and they make other people responsible for their feelings, we probably have an unhealthy, co-dependency situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:52 PM

Nicely turned, Carol. Pardon me for snapping! :>)

A

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:58 PM

Way to put Amos in his place, CarolC. Jus' funnin. Really. Hey, like Rodney King said, "Can't we all just get along?"

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: kendall
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 09:59 PM

Happiness comes not from having what you want, but from wanting what you have.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Amos
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:21 PM

Bobert,

A great line, really, however illusory...

A

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:31 PM

You can't MAKE someone happy, any more than you can make someone love you. IMHO the thing to strive for is to know the person you care about, and make their happiness possible by not getting in the way with selfishness (a lesson some men I know have yet to learn).

Other than that, I second Kendall's statement.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Deda
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:39 PM

What really makes me happy is teaching kids Latin. Unfortunately there's no money in it, so I do it on weekends as a hobby and drag myself, mon-Fri, 8-5, to an office job at which I am none too good, and none too loved. As a Latin teacher I was much more talented, and much more appreciated, and my whole body and my heart and life felt much lighter. I spent many evening hours getting ready for the next day, and felt creative. Now I've fallen into the great American stereotype of dragging myself to a job where I watch the clock and long for weekends.

Terrible thread creep -- sorry. Fortunately I have a wonderful man who gets home from his day job just a little after I do -- so I make supper and he cleans up, and the day ends passably well, with us in our place together.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Mar 02 - 10:45 PM

Amos: I know. This thread is just so entertaining, that I jusy can't help from playing with it. I remember back a million years ago when I was in college and there was this guy by the name of Norman who used his old Volkwagen bug as his soap box. About every month or so he would repaint the entire car and then start over with lettering it from top to bottom with his latest tirade. Well, one day he showed up with a new editorial freshly painted about his relationship with an ex. Well, he started on the roof and went thru the entire thing about gender roles and ended up with the words, "WHAT DO WOMEN WANT?" Well, Amos, he left the car and went off to class and when he returned, the ex had painted over "DO WOMEN" and painted in " DOES NORMAN"... Now, I'm not sure what this has to add or detract from this thread, but it fits in some how.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: GUEST,Diesel
Date: 12 Mar 02 - 02:01 PM

Personally - I think Harpgirl (and Amos) got it right - if side by side is good - On top or below is infinitely better.....

As for other good places - Sitting room is good, kitchen is fun .... the list goes on !

Diesel

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Essex Girl
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 10:29 AM

While I'm willing to agree with:-

"Well, most men like to believe their proper place is inside women, but they don't talk about it much. I don't think this idea is as widely shared on the distaff side!!"

And

"Your place is neither in front of us nor behind us, but at our side."

This could cause some practical difficulties, unless some men are built differently !

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Amos
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 09:29 PM

Essex:

I think the only solution is an algorithm that proves for alternating prepositions and a mad rate....

A

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Mark Clark
Date: 13 Mar 02 - 11:12 PM

I have no trouble at all understanding my my proper place. The women in my family were kind enough to post the explanation on the wall.

      - Mark

The Rules

1. The female always makes the rules
2. The rules are subject to change at any time without prior notice.
3. No male can possibly know all the rules.
4. If the female suspects the male knows all the rules, she must immediately change them.
5. The female is never wrong.
6. If the female is wrong it is due to a misunderstanding which was the direct result of something the male said or did. The male must apologise immediately for causing said misunderstanding.
7. The male is always wrong.
8. The male may be right if he agrees with the female, unless she wants him to disagree.
9. The female may change her mind at any time.
10. The male may never change his mind without the express written consent of the female.
11. The female has every right to be angry or upset at any time.
12. The male must remain calm at all times unless the female wants him to be angry or upset.
13. The female must under no circumstances let the male know whether she wants him to be angry or upset.
14. The male's always expected to mind read.
15. If the female has PMT all the rules are null and void.
16. The female is ready when she is ready.
17. The male must be ready at ALL times.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:07 AM

I'll be seeing you
In all the proper places-
Or else!

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 12:56 AM

Hell, Mark, I couldn't even be happy living in a household with rules like those, and they are supposedly for my benefit.

I'm having a difficult time trying to describe the effect that reading those rules is having on me. Sort of a cringe that extends from the top of my brain, all the way down through all of my innards, and making my teeth itch on the way, and ending up as a big knot of queasy frustration in the middle of my gut.

Run away, Mark! Get away from that place as fast as you can! It's evil!

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 01:02 AM

Run Away? No Hiding Place Down Here!

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 01:09 AM

Oohhh... That's too bad. Have you tried the Walter Mitty approach?

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: kendall
Date: 14 Mar 02 - 07:40 AM

There is only one necessary rule, and it is golden.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: Mark Clark
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 12:45 AM

Carol, I'll take your advice under consideration. <g> I should have added that “The Rules” aren't actually in force in my house. My wife, Jan, and daughter Kate thought they were funny and so did I.

Those rules are in the same vein as the philosophical question: If a man is all alone in the forest and there's no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?

Nobody gets uptight at my house... well, that is except for the cat now that we have a dog.

      - Mark

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 03:23 AM

Well that's certainly a relief, Mark.

Re: your question, "If a man is all alone in the forest and there's no woman there to hear him, is he still wrong?"

I don't know. What do you think?

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: kendall
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 08:27 AM

he is if the tree falls on him, stupid sod.

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: KingBrilliant
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 09:01 AM

He's ALWAYS wrong - no question.

Kris

Subject: RE: BS: Men in their 'proper places'
From: hesperis
Date: 21 Mar 02 - 01:14 PM

Great one, Kendall!!!!!! That's going to be one of my favorite jokes now.