BS: Anyone defend US gun law?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: bobad
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:30 PM

A little while ago a mother was locked up for letting her nine year old daughter go play in a park by herself yet a parent can legally bring their nine year old daughter to a shooting range and have her fire automatic weapons. WTF?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 01:43 PM

olddude's b;uster - "I can outgun the baddie even when my gun's in the safe" blablabla - is the puerile stuff of countless westerns. But even a supertrained Rambo like olddude (though Rahere seems to have undermined those boasts a bit) is no match for a nine-year-old with a semi-automatic machinegun, hehehe.

I do love that story, by the way. And what a blessing that the kid's direct hit was captured on video, so she'll have something to show the grand-kids. Let's hope she takes encouragement from such early success, and notches up a few more instructors before too long!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ernest
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 02:18 PM

Thread creep alert:

Anyone noticed the irony in gun law critics using nicknames like "backwoodsman" and "musket"?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: gnu
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:06 PM

Good gun laws are good gun laws. Bad gun laws are bad gun laws. Been lots of threads in Mudcat in the past. Thousands of posts. Lots of good info and lots of misinformation based on sensationalism. Go back and read em if ya wanna bother. If ya just wanna spew and shit... both sides... fill yer boots and chase yer tails. At least half of yas haven't a clue what yer talkin about in the first place and, thereby, can't offer meaningful solutions.

9 year old with an Uzi? I disagree. Olddude defending his family with a legal firearm? I agree. Citizens defending themselves from any aggression with firearms? I agree. Citizens open carry of any kinda gun... I... WTF is THAT shit?

Yet again, I shall say gnightgnu because this thread will go on and on, become vile and childish at times, never come to a logical and considerate consensus... essentially, it will mirror MANY such gun threads herein this forum over the years. I'll just say this. The US will solve it's gun problem when it solves it's social problems so don't hold yer breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:20 PM

Ernest. Possibly because "Musket" isn't denoting a disturbing fascination with machines designed to kill.

It was a school nickname and was fuck all to do with guns. Not my fault I have an impressibly huge willy...

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:22 PM

Under mind me Lol not in your dreams

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:38 PM

I often wondered who modelled for that guy in Viz with a wheelbarrow.....

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:45 PM

Rambo was a pussy

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:46 PM

So was James Bond even more so

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:57 PM

"Anyone noticed the irony in gun law critics using nicknames like "backwoodsman" and "musket"?"

In my case, no irony at all. I used to be 'Strollin' Johnny' until an extremely unpleasant, aggressive female member referred to me as a Backwoodsman (on the basis that I live in a small market town in a rural county, rather than in London, which was where she lived).

As she'd decided I was a backwoodsman, I decided to take it as my name. Nothing more sinister or mysterious than that.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 03:58 PM

I am a pragmatist. So I will say it again. All the countries of the western world have an annual rate of gun deaths in single, or at most low double, figures. In the USA the rate never drops below somewhere about the 2000+ mark.

How can any of you over there justify such a situation in any terms whatever?

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 04:08 PM

Yeah but if everyone is armed the playing field is level

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 04:11 PM

And if everyone is UN-armed, the playing field is equally level. And nobody gets shot.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 04:16 PM

Very true but getting them here

To do that.. No

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 04:21 PM

Then you're fucked.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 04:25 PM

Michael... NO ONE can sensibly defend or justify those figures....but **some** choose to look the other way! I can explain some of their rationalizations ... money, politics, testosterone...etc. but I never try to justify.

A real pragmatist (I studied it for 6-7 years) would start with what IS and examine both the causes and the political & legal possibilities as they might be pursued. This means... to MY pragmatic views... that such ideas as sending 'authorities' into every home to confiscate all guns is not a 'pragmatically' good idea. Neither is the idea of legislating that every household be required to own a firearm and training members to use it... as has been tried in a couple of communities.
You can no doubt list other stupid, not-so-pragmatic ideas; that's easy... please DO make some suggestions about what would help..other than the already logical, but hard to do bit of banning or restricting sales at gun shows!

I want MORE education and media focus on the issue and on every tragic event until every mind that is not already committed TO guns is horrified. Some of that IS happening.... perhaps one day there will be some NRA owned politician denied re-election because of his views... maybe... perhaps..

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 04:29 PM

Duck Baker put on his fb page that more women had been murdered in the US with guns by their partner since 2001 than all the US soldiers killed in Afghan wars.
not a good situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 04:39 PM

Back in the day you could order a Thompson right from Sears in their catalog.. Good old days

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,Rahere
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 05:20 PM

No need to ban the firearms, just the ammunition and materials to roll their own.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 05:29 PM

Now that we solved that problem can someone send money to fix our national debt

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 05:33 PM

For me a bigger problem is you can buy a shit load of gun power without any checks for most states. Sadly though no C4 that you would have to make

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 05:41 PM

Al. You are confusing cock and balls. You refer to Buster Gonads and his unfeasibly large testicals. My burden is, as the weather, changeable.

Anyway. Least said soonest mended. I don't wish to attract begging letters.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 05:43 PM

I am going to quit now before I get the powers to be pissed. You do realize I am just busting your balls anyway be good. I would like to see my thread on British catter music revived instead of troll threads

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 06:04 PM

It's hard to read between the lines sometimes and know exactly when someone is teasing or bear-baiting.... I use all sorts of **tricks** and 'emphasis' to show my intent.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: pdq
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 06:09 PM

...for Backwoodsman:


While running for president in 1968, Pat Paulsen, a comic and friend of the Smothers Brothers said:

       "Guns don't kill people, Bullets do. Ban Bullets".
         

He also said about personal ethics:

       "I've upped my standards. Now, up yours"

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 06:11 PM

I only have about six or seven pounds (about 2.95 kg) of gunpowder and smokeless powder at home. Hardly enough to even detonate.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 06:12 PM

I have the powers to get pissed. The powers of Adnams.

I assume it means something else in foreign countries eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 06:56 PM

Civil War guys were in the park this summer dressed up in uniforms etc. No kidding they must have loaded five pounds of black power in their cannon.. Damn that thing shook the windows.. It was awesome, I was jealous

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 07:01 PM

Rap did you see pawn stars with the guy who had a Gatlin five barrel cannon from 1898.it fired a one pound explosive each crank holy crap. It was rare he wanted 300k my wife wouldn't let me

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 08:07 PM

Истины свободы

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 08:14 PM

Никогда не оставляйте

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 09:14 PM

Те, кто сохранит их.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 09:24 PM

rap

Правильность моего брата

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 09:27 PM

Я не так хорошо, как в до

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 09:29 PM

Тайные дней

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 09:37 PM

rap

Они не имеют каких-либо идея моего брата

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 09:39 PM

Всегда добросовестное

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: GUEST,olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 09:49 PM

Согласны мой брат

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 10:41 PM

бомбы, пули и пьянка

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 11:00 PM

Μόνο κάποιος που έχει γνωρίσει η δουλεία μπορεί να εκτιμούν την ελευθερία.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 11:26 PM

Τόσο αληθινό

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: olddude
Date: 28 Aug 14 - 11:33 PM

старой доброй дней

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 12:22 AM

Too much powder does that to you.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 06:04 AM

? ‎מיכאל       למה זה

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 06:58 AM

Don't encourage him Michael.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Musket
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:53 AM

To be fair to Michael and with respect to his irrational fear of his newsagent, I should have said

אחות! הוא יוצא מהמיטה שוב!

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 07:53 AM

"**a society as a whole**"

I understand that Bill, and I agree about sweeping generalisations as being English I'm subject to them all the time. A good example of this is the Scottish independence debate; I'm a socialist and supporter if the yes vote, but as my country is run by a public school elite I get tarred wight he same brush. So of course individuals have their own opinions, but they are also part of the society they live in and with that comes a degree of responsibility.

At the end of the day, if people in the US thought there should be no guns then that consensus would (ideally, if it happens anywhere these days) be listened to. But the consensus amongst your countryfolk is that guns are good and the odd massacre and accidental death is a price worth paying for your 'freedom'. Here in the UK the consensus is firmly against guns except for people that use them for a living or under very strict control; the peelers (although thankfully most of our force is unarmed), farmers, sorts shooters, toffs that enjoy killing and the occasional conservationist hunter.

One of your countrymen was on the radio yesterday on a phone-in discussing the Uzi-wielding 9 year old. He made is very clear that he loves the UK because he feels safer as everyone isn't armed and can walk the streets without fear.

There's a cultural difference here too, but let's not discuss that. It's obvious if you look.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 09:25 AM

I think I'm really shit at communicating via the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 11:44 AM

Stu... very few are really good at it. We depend on voice, body language, eyes (facial expression)...etc. You at least read and respond to what you read instead of just making a quick remark. It ain't necessary to agree on everything to further education & comprehension

So... I will have a go at this:

"At the end of the day, if people in the US thought there should be no guns then that consensus would (ideally, if it happens anywhere these days) be listened to. But the consensus amongst your countryfolk is that guns are good and the odd massacre and accidental death is a price worth paying for your 'freedom'. "

Sadly it doesn't really work like that. Polls have shown that a majority of the total population actually does favor some serious revision gun laws...(not total ban, as there are still areas of wilderness where guns actually make some sense). But that majority is distributed in awkward ways in different states and cultural areas... and unless you live here, it's hard to comprehend the concept of "states rights".
   Imagine if Sussex & Lancashire and Wessex and Kent & Norfolk all were allowed to allow or ban firearms depending on changing voting habits... and if each had different rules... and if cities in each could modify the basic rules to suit local opinion. ... and if Kent allowed guns and London didn't, Londoners could just pop over to Maidstone and buy whatever they wanted.
That's what we have...even more complex... and imagine if every 10 years the voting districts in all the areas were redrawn by whatever party was in power to group voters they approved of together to maximize their representation in Parliament. That's what we have. And all those awkward legal situations are set in Constitutional law which can only be changed by a tedious process involving voting---by whom? By states which have just been redistricted by the ruling party.... who also 'may' get to appoint judges to settle complaints ABOUT the voting & redistricting system and...oh yes, on the legality of various gun laws.
Much of all this made sense in 1789 when we decided to forego being ruled by mean old King George. *grin*

So... the "consensus" among us may not be what is enacted into law in any particular place. Every 4 years we get to elect a president who has certain abilities to control stupid laws passed, but even he is not elected by pure national majority, because we have the "electoral college" where more populous states get more votes. This has twice resulted in the election of a man who got less than a majority. Guess what it would take to revise the electoral college system?

There are multi-millions of us who do NOT like gun laws, abortion laws, labor laws, etc...but the system is awkward to change... and all too many have given up trying to vote as a losing battle, because much of each voting round is influenced by huge amounts of money. We need to change the "campaign finance laws".... guess how that would be done?

ALL THAT is why I plead with Brits to at least show they SEE our problem, even if it seems crazy.... sweeping generalizations just don't cover the situation. Some of us are trying.. and we have 'some' media which are doing a pretty good job of waving the problem in the face of everyone who will listen.... (did I mention we have about umpty-eight competing media outlets?)

Our one hope right now is that the newly emerging 'minorities' will register and change the voting patterns... if they are not totally redistricted into patterns which make them irrelevant.

But.. I live here. I have to try.

Subject: RE: BS: Anyone defend US gun law?
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Aug 14 - 01:13 PM

Inescapable fact: with 300,000,000 or so guns in existence, *no* imaginable gun laws can reduce the incidence of shootings - whether by gangsters, enraged spouses, psychotics, nine-year-old girls, or the nearly nonexistent krazed kops - to anything like zero.

Is this so hard to understand?

The best we can do is to do as much as practicable to restrict gun sales to sane and responsible people who want a reasonable number of guns to protect themselves and their families. What's a reasonable number? I'd say in a four-person household, two or three would be about the limit - one for each parent (I know, it's hard to imagine the necessity) and one for the household.

But of course, no such limit will ever be imposed because the Founders, who had no concept of either semi-automatic weapons, armored vehicles, vast criminal networks, or instantaneous communication among nut groups, said (or seemed to say) that no Federal law would ever infringe the right to bear arms.

A "God-given right" some insist (though not the Founders, please note).

Getting back to the general Yank-bashing for a moment, I recall a moment a very smug British or Canadian individual ridiculed America's Constitutional Founding Fathers as a bunch of "backwoods lawyers."

A neat example of the proud ignorance and childish sarcasm of so many of his or her ilk.