BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow

Subject: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 02:46 PM

With so many politics threads lately I thought I might as well start a music thread.

A musical performance in Moscow has been interrupted by about twenty armed men taking hostages the up to 600 people in the audience. Children and Muslims (what a nice combination) have been allowed to leave.

Let's hope for a moment without hope they just didn't like the music.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Alice
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 04:23 PM

Do you have a link online to the news story, Wolfgang? World madness.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: MMario
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 04:32 PM

google news is showing quite a few stories on it now - when Wolfgang first posted there wasn't anything.

google news

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Alice
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 04:32 PM

Just found the story on some US news web sites... top story along with the DC sniper.

MOSCOW — Armed men claiming to be Chechens took a theater audience
hostage in Moscow on Wednesday and threatened to blow up the building if the police stormed it, authorities said.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Alice
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 04:35 PM

The Soviet Palace of Art was holding a performance of
                              the musical Nord-Ost (North-East), one of the Russian
                              capital's most popular productions.

                              Police estimated the hostage count to be between 700
                              and 900 people. The Interfax news agency said one of
                              its reporters was inside the theater at the time of the
                              raid. She told them in a telephone call that the men fired
                              automatic weapons into the air and were preventing the
                              audience from leaving, the agency said.

                              Alexander Tsekalo, the musical's producer, told Russian
                              television that the theater holds 1,163 audience
                              members, approximately 60 actors and 35 musicians
                              are involved in the production and about 35 theater
                              personnel are present at every performance. He
                              speculated that about 1,000 people would be in the
                              building for a regular Wednesday performance.

                              According to Izvestiya newspaper, at least 20 gunmen,
                              some of whom were armed with automatic weapons,
                              had allowed all members of the audience to make phone
                              calls and children and Muslim audience members were
                              allowed to leave.

                              A woman who made her way out of the theater said in
                              an interview on Russia's NTV television that men
                              wearing camouflage went on stage, fired in the air and
                              said: "Don't you understand what's going on? We are
                              Chechens. We are not hiding it."

                              Russian television reported the gunmen claimed they
                              were raiding the theater to draw attention to the war in
                              Chechnya and to advocate an end to the conflict. The
                              gunmen also warned police not to storm the building
                              and said that any dead gunman would result in ten dead
                              hostages.


above from www.foxnews.com

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: DougR
Date: 23 Oct 02 - 07:58 PM

It will be interesting to see how Putin handles this I think.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: EBarnacle1
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:15 AM

Some critics are just too tough.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Bagpuss
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 11:17 AM

I heard they have let foreigners go (including some Brits), but now they are threatening to kill the hostages.

Bagpuss

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: DougR
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 03:21 PM

I don't know whether or not it is feasible to do so, but I think the Cable news networks should devote more time to what is going on over in Russia. That is scary! Lots of people could get killed or injured in this terrorist action.

I think there is too much concentration on the current situation related to the sniper in the D. C. area. I guess that is the nature of cable news these days though.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 24 Oct 02 - 07:56 PM

Well... It's too bad that it takes something like this to get people talking about Ichkeria/Chechnya again. But when you invade a nation, deport the populace en masse to Kazakhstan (killing 1/3rd of them in the process), and then kill a couple hundred thousand more when they secede, things like this happen. The Russian empire has held the entire Chechen nation hostage for a century and a half, so I don't think I'll shed too many tears if, to paraphrase Lenin, a few eggs get broken in Moskva.



---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 07:25 AM

It is a hard one. If the Moscow authorities give in immediately it will save the lives of all the hostages. It will save the lives of the hostage takers. (Before I get my ass flamed - no - that's not my priority either!) It will save the lives of security staff. It will save the lives of Russian soldiers in Chechnya and it will save the lives of Chechenyan citizens and guerillas alike. It will also put everyone everywhere at greater risk of being taken hostage. Nobody agrees with the method. Many of us agree with their objectives. Why can't there be some easier ways out of these dilemnas?

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 07:53 AM

Free the hostages!

Free the Chechens!

Free the hostages!

Free the Chechens!

Free the...................

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: catspaw49
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 08:01 AM

As long as we live in a world where there is such great distinction between the haves and the have nots, even in the poorest of societies, we will keep seeing terrorism at every level. It's one of the few devices left to the have nots which they can put hope in being effective. Of course it isn't, but desperation is both a strong motivation and a sad thing.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 08:44 AM

You are dead right 'Spaw. The tragedy of the Moscow kidnapping is that it will make it more difficult for the government there to do the right thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 11:41 AM

Excuse me Lepus, but... the Chechen Nation? To the best of my knowledge, the Chechens have never been a nation. They have occupied a certain section of country for quite some time but have always been under the governance of other, more powerful countries. The Chechens are a nation only in their own minds. You might also speak of the Pashtun "Nation" or the Kurdish "Nation".
As geo-political entities, they do not exist. Whether or not they SHOULD exist is another matter altogether.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 01:04 PM

Well, first, Troll, I think you're confusing "nation" with "nation-state." The word "nation" is commony used to describe communities of people, united by various characteristics, regardless of whether they have a state or not. Don't worry, common mistake; I still love you.

Second, the Chechens declared their independence from Russia more than ten years ago, and still have an active, independent (if innefective) government headed by Aslan Maskhadov.

Third, even by the Russians, the Chechens are considered a nationality, with their own semi-autonomous Republic within Russia.

So... Oh, yeah: I'm at home now, and found the book with a quote about the Chechen conflict that I wanted to include in my first post, by the late Alexander Lebed:

"Bombardments have an unpleasant side effect: They engender wolves who for a very long time will not conceal their fangs. The most splendid soldiers are made of the people who are leaving their homes in the morning without even thinking about a war, but after returning home in the evening discover the place of their houses are now shell-holes in which their wives, children and parents had evaporated... Only one thing remains to such people---revenge."

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 01:22 PM

This isn't about rich folks vs poor folks in the third world countries. It is about pure, unabashed power and territorialism.

And excuse me, but just how, after a hundred years of terrorising the Chechens, are the Russians being prevented from "doing the right thing" now? This "can't give in to terrorists" is a bit too Thatherite and Reaganesque for my tastes. Please Putin, stop the slaughter of innocents by giving in and getting the Russian troops the hell out.

I'm on the side of the hostage takers, even though I feel very bereft about the circumstances for all involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 25 Oct 02 - 07:44 PM

The ends justify the means, eh GUEST? What are your thoughts on the Bali bombing or the bombers in Zamboanga.
Are you on their side as well?
Why or why not.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 03:25 AM

Well, glad to hear that is now over. The Russians stormed the place this morning (6 am, their time) when the Chechens started killing hostages as they had promised to do. Situation and news reports are still confused but the operation seems to have gone well, although we will have to wait and see.

Lepus Rex:

"Well, first, Troll, I think you're confusing "nation" with "nation-state." The word "nation" is commony used to describe communities of people, united by various characteristics, regardless of whether they have a state or not. Don't worry, common mistake; I still love you.

Second, the Chechens declared their independence from Russia more than ten years ago, and still have an active, independent (if innefective) government headed by Aslan Maskhadov.

Third, even by the Russians, the Chechens are considered a nationality, with their own semi-autonomous Republic within Russia."

From your three paragraphs above it would seem by your reasoning that although Troll may have been confusing "nation" with "nation-state" (personally I do not think he was), both yourself and the Chechens do confuse the two and the Russians never have.

It's all about oil of course and time is running out for the Chechens, because as soon as the pipeline through Turkey is completed Azeri oil does not have to go through the northern pipeline which passes through Russia and Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Teribus
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 03:34 AM

Sorry - a couple of things I forgot to mention.

Lepus:

"The word "nation" is commony used to describe communities of people, united by various characteristics, regardless of whether they have a state or not."

In my home town, we used to think that way until the age of about eleven - except we called them gangs. Tended to disappear once we got to High School and found ourselves playing in the same rugby team, and sitting in class beside the same sets of guys we'd spent the previous few years knocking lumps out of and getting lumps knocked out of ourselves. The form of nation you seem to hold so dear is exactly the same - narrow, destructive and disruptive.

For Bobert - should he venture into this thread - You have just seen your "Battle of Baghdad" played out in miniature.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 07:48 AM

I'm not confusing anything, Teribus. I was simply explaining to Troll three different ways in which the Chechens could be could considered a nation. "My" definition of nation is the one you'll find in your dictionary, if you own one. It's not a "narrow" definition. In fact, it's considerably broader in scope than yours, existing beyond political borders.

And it has little or nothing to do with oil. Russia has no real use for Chechnya. It's a poor, mountainous land filled with people who always have, and always will, despise them. But if they let them go, they fear that indedpendence-minded minorities in Tatarstan, Daghestan, Khalmg Tangch, Sakha Republic, etc., will be emboldened to secede as well. They've already lost huge swaths of their old empire, and don't intend to lose any more of their current one.

Oh, and the Russian did a lovely job of "freeing" the hostages. Many apparently suffocated when the Russian police gassed the theater.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 12:43 PM

At least 67 dead...........

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 12:54 PM

looks a lot worse than that sorcha

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Sorcha
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 12:57 PM

Yes, heard the 67 much earlier this morning.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 02:43 PM

"Well, glad to hear that is now over."

It isn't exactly over, and "glad" a word that doesn't really belong in a situation like this. Current figure for deaths among hostages is 90 and expected to rise, given the number seriously injured in hospital. Their chances of survival isn't improved by the refusal of the authorities to let the doctors know what the gas used was.

Nothing can justify this kind of hostage taking, but its worth understanding some of things that have led up to it. The background to this is a brutal, near genocidal, war launched by Russia, in breach of a peace settlement in a previous successful war of indepedence. The grounds for the new war were a series of terrorist atrocities against Russian civilians which there are very good grounds for believing were carried out by the Russian authorities as part of Putin's successful bid to become elected President. Essentially it was warmaking as an electoral stunt.

The nightmare is that it's starting to seem that atrocities are having to be bigger and bigger in order to get media attention.

The only sane thing to have done would have been for Moscow to preempt the whole thing by accepting the right of Chechnya to secede the same way places like Georgia, Lithuania and all the rest were able to secede. But no, power politics didn't allow that because technically, unlike those countries, Chechnya was part of Russia rather than a theoretically separate state within the Soviet Union.

Crazy.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: GUEST
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 03:18 PM

Hear, hear McGrath.

The fact that this tragedy has got so little coverage here, is further evidence of the insular nature of US citizes.

Had this happened in California, we'd have a thousand threads. 'God bless America, God damn the rest'

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 06:32 PM

"I don't think I'll shed too many tears if, to paraphrase Lenin, a few eggs get broken in Moskva.



---Lepus Rex"

So how many tears are you shedding right now, Will ? None for Bali, none for Washington DC, none for the innocents in the Moscow theater?

Getting the tear-ducts lubricated up for the first Cruise missile to hit Baghdad?

And to think I apologized for my Ramadan-a ding-dong thread a year ago.

Go, George ...

Murray

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Oct 02 - 07:50 PM

Here's a link to Human Rights Watch which has material both about this hostage taking ("a revolting, unjustifiable act") and about atrocities carried out by the Russians against Chechens, including rape, "disapearances", torture and massacre.

There's a lot of terrorism about in the world today, and much of the time the terrorists are on opposite sides to each other.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 05:54 AM

And to think I apologised for calling you a racist, Murray. I missed last years "Ramadan-a-Ding-Dong" thread, somehow, and only...5 days after we had our "racist bastard" conversation? Drinking again, are we?

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 07:25 AM

Well, the hostage body count has risen to 118, now, most if not all dead as a result of inhaling the Russian "mystery gas."

It appears to me that the Chechens were successful: They brought Ichkeria/Chechnya back to the headlines, and showed the world who the real "terrorists" are: the Russians, who once again have slaughtered their own civilian citizens for political gain. I think it's going to backfire this time, hopefully bringing Putin down and ending the occupation. Unlike the apartment bombings, this happened on TV.

Again, it's too bad it had to come to this.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:30 AM

So, someone tell us all what the Russians should have done to free the hostages. Give the world the benefit of your expertise. Keep in mind that once a nation gives in to hostage-takers demands, others will be emboldened to do the same and some of them will not have any sort of noble purpose in mind. They will be after wealth; money not liberty.
So lets hear it folks. What would YOU have done?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:54 AM

I would have given into the terrorists demands as soon as I had heard them. It would have saved all the lives in the theatre - hostage and hostage taker alike. It would have endangered no more members of the security forces. It would have ended the war in Chechenya - saving the lives of Russian troops, Chechenyan troops and both Russian and Chechen non combatants. Unlike the current ruling Kremlin cadre, I do not wish to remain in power indefinitely or curry favour with the current White House incumbet. And by the way, I believe that ending the Chechenyan war is the right course of action anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: DougR
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:09 PM

I think Russia did what it had to do. To give in to Terrorist demands only invites them to do it again. How about at the Super Bowl, or the World Series? The Olympics? Your neighborhood movie theater?

It is terrible that so many innocent lives were lost, but better 118 than 800. Does that mean I don't care about those that died? No, not at all. We are living in a different world now, and it's not easy to accept that fact.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:19 PM

If the Russians would've given in to the "terrorist" demands, Doug, Russian troops would be pulling out of Chechnya, and there would be no reason to repeat these actions. All the brutal Russian response has done is 1.Alienate and anger the Russian public, and 2.Show any would-be Chechen "terrorists" that this tactic still works very well to do just that, and to publicise their cause.

So, in response to Troll's question: I would have "given in," too. Of course, I'd like nothing more than to see the Russian empire burn to the ground, so... :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:24 PM

As I said, where does the "giving in" end? Where does a country or an individual draw the line?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: alanabit
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:29 PM

I was being a little provocative, but the irony of the situation was that Putin was holding out for the right to continue doing the wrong thing. In most situations I would put the lives of the hostages second (gasp) and consider the danger to future potential victims. I just happen to think that Putin is wrong and that he will continue to endanger more lives. No disrespect to your views Doug. I too believe that all terrorism is wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:41 PM

Any region of any country where the population no longer wishes to remain a part of that state should have the right to secede, in my opinion. In such a case, the state should "give in" and let the seperatists go. In most cases (as probably would have happened in Chechnya, eventually, if it weren't for Yeltsin's personal dislike of Dudaev), the new state would be unable to sustain itself, and return to it's mother country in exchange for greater autonomy.

In the case of Chechnya, I'm hoping for a broader revolt in Russia's North Caucasus, and a new Trans-Caucasian state. Which, yeah, will probably not happen, but, hey, if I was "Russia," that's what I'd aim for. ;)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 02:44 PM

The difference between this and September 11th and October 12th is that these were terrorists making demands. "Do this or we'll do that."

That's horrible and it's not justifiable, but it's "rational". The hijackers of September 11th and the bombers of October 11th in Bali weren't making demands. That's what is different about them, and that's an important difference to keep in mind.

And the other thing about the war in Chechnya is that it is a vicious and unjust war by Russia which should never have started, and the sooner it stops the better for everyone.

Historical analogies should never be taken too far - but imagine a scenario in which a bunch of Jews had done something like this in a Berlin theatre and had demanded a halt to the Holocaust? Would people be quite so certain that giving in to their demands would have been the wrong thing to do?

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: DougR
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 03:20 PM

I'm not convinced it is a good analogy, McGrath. I think had that happened, the Nazis would have been delighted to storm the place and kill every Jew in sight.

Accounts I have read in newspapers and seen on TV report that the Russians did not storm the theater until the Rebels began killing the hostages, so I don't believe one can say Putin did not use some restraint.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 06:39 PM

As I said, one shouldn't try to stretch analogies too far. Putin isn't Hitler, and the Chechnya isn't the Holocaust.

The point is, the demand that terrorists were making was in fact an essentially just demand - being demanded in an unjust and terrible way. And that would have been the case in an even more extreme way in the imaginary scenario that I painted, with innocent German civilians being held hostage by desperate Jews. And in both cases those making the demand would have known that there was no real possibility of it being accepted, and that the most that could be achieved would be to make more people aware of what was going on out of sight.

The latest death toll is 117 hostages (BBC News Website. And 116 of these were killed by the "rescue" gas, with one dying from gunshot wounds. It's unclear to what extent those figures might have been lower, if the Russian authorities hadn't refused to tell the medical people what poison gas it was that they used.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Gareth
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 06:55 PM

Kevin - Where do we stop ( and it's not often I disagree with you)

Picture the senario

A gang of Rabid right wingers holding hostage in the Old Vic theater thretening to kill them all unless all imigration to the UK is stopped ?

A gang of our own home grown Nutt cases in Wales threatening to kill all in the Arms Park Stadium unless all English Speakers are expelled from Wales ?? - And there are enough Nat Nutt cases around to make this a realistic senario.

The KKK demanding repeal of all civil rights legislation in the US of A ???

Now neither of us were there in Moscow - and we did
not have the responsability of the decision, or the information to make the decision. Perhaps the Russian Authorities made a bad call, and misjudged it - we dont know, but most of the hostages were saved.

and to aceeed would only have gaurenteed a repeat some where else, somewhere later.

In the early 1970's my parents were in Egypt, as employees of HM Government in the UK/Egypt educational training program. My father left strickt instructions with the fammilly - he was not to be ransomed. Fortunately it never came to that.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 07:04 PM

Well it is nice to know that the U.S. had a part in it all as it seems to be a gas we developed during VietNam...........Yes, when better weapons are developed, WE WILL develop them! Let's keep the DOW in Dow-Jones............................

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 08:21 PM

You'll notice that the Israelis don't have hostage situations. That's because it is known that, in their policy, all hostages are presumed to be dead. They then act accordingly.
The result? No hostage situations. If you KNOW that they are not going to negotiate with you, why bother? I suppose that the suicide bombs are used instead.
A lousy situation, but that's the way they do it. I guess that only the Islamic Radicals are willing to blow themselves up and that's why we don't have more bombings in the world.
It was my understanding that it was a narcotic gas that was used, not poison, and it was used in high concentration to knock out the terrorists before they could detonate the bombs the had planted or were carrying. There is no knowing how many would have died had those bombs gone off.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 09:33 PM

The difference from those imaginary situations Gareth gave is that the actual demand for an end to the war and a withdrawal of Russian forces is a demand for something that ought to happen.

It's a cruel and unjust war in which terrible things are being done. And the people who are fighting against it includes people who are ready to do cruel and unjust things as well, and the hostage taking was as cruel and unjust as can be. But that doesn't mean that what they were asking wasn't something that ought to be done.

"Not poison" when it has so far killed 116 people? Just because in certain circumstances it is believed that it (whatever "it" was) might not be lethal? Arsenic is quite good for you in small doses, I believe. But if 116 peope died after you administered it to them, I doubt if that would be seen as grounds for saying it wasn't a case of poisoning.

Well, perhaps in the circumstances it seemed the least worst thing to do. Perhaps it was bungled. But refusing to give the doctors the information about the gas that they needed, that wasn't bungling or the least worst thing to do. It seems more like cold-blooded murder.

Here's that link to Human Rights Watch I gave earlier. It's on noone's side. Or everyones's.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Oct 02 - 10:50 PM

Sounds like a no-win situation to me. Pretty miserable. Spaw, I agree with your brief comment...it's the Haves vs. the Have-nots once again...with innocent bystanders paying the price.

- LH

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 02:31 AM

The Russians have ruled that area for several hundred years. How far back do you go? Fifty years? Five hundred years? Do you tell one group that they deserve their own country and another group that they don't?
Actually, the Checheyns had self-rule after the first war. Then came the bombings of the apartment buildings in Moscow (which some claim Putin did to get elected) and the war started up again.
I have no clue as to why the Russian Govt. has refused to identify the gas. Any substance can be dangerous if used in large enough quantities. Water will kill you if you inhale too much of it but try to live without it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 05:46 AM

No need to go back hundreds of years in this case. As you say troll: Actually, the Chechens had self-rule after the first war (ie in 1999). Then came the bombings of the apartment buildings in Moscow (which some claim Putin did to get elected) and the war started up again.

And the evidence of Russian "security" (the FSB) being involved in those apartment buildings bombing seems pretty strong. In one case "local residents and police caught individuals in an apartment building planting what appeared to be explosives, which the FSB subsequently claimed were bags of sugar that were part of a security "exercise." The Chechens had nothing to gain from those bombings, and everything to k,lose; those Russians who wanted to renew the war had a great deal to gain. And so especially did those who wanted Putin to be elected.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 06:21 AM

Kevin, In the article you link to above, the guy admits that he has no evidence of Putin's involvement and later in the article he says that he has no evidence of FSB involvement. What he has done is to allude to having/making evidence/proof, but as he has had about three years to come up with it and has so far failed to do so does not make a "pretty strong case" - there is no evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 06:35 AM

And equally the evidence for the involvement of the Chechens in those apartment bombings wasn't too much in evidence either. But that didn't stop the Russians immediately starting up a second war.

All efforts at an independent investigation into what actually happened have been hindered. The principle of cui bono isn't the last word, but it's always a good thing to keep an eye on who it is who actually benefits from an event like this. And it certainly wasn't the Chechens.

Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 08:23 AM

There may even have been an unknown third group who stood to gain if the war started up again. We'll probably never know the truth.

troll