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BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow

Lepus Rex 28 Oct 02 - 05:10 PM
Gareth 28 Oct 02 - 07:15 PM
Lepus Rex 28 Oct 02 - 09:42 PM
Teribus 29 Oct 02 - 05:51 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Oct 02 - 06:53 AM
Wolfgang 29 Oct 02 - 08:44 AM
Troll 29 Oct 02 - 09:08 AM
Wolfgang 29 Oct 02 - 11:02 AM
An Pluiméir Ceolmhar 29 Oct 02 - 11:14 AM
Lepus Rex 30 Oct 02 - 09:10 PM
greg stephens 30 Oct 02 - 09:31 PM
Troll 31 Oct 02 - 07:20 AM
Wolfgang 31 Oct 02 - 07:56 AM
GUEST,Lepus Rex 31 Oct 02 - 10:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 01 Nov 02 - 07:38 AM
greg stephens 01 Nov 02 - 08:15 AM
Troll 01 Nov 02 - 08:29 AM
Lepus Rex 01 Nov 02 - 09:03 AM
Bagpuss 01 Nov 02 - 09:14 AM
Troll 01 Nov 02 - 12:49 PM
DougR 01 Nov 02 - 06:57 PM
Murray MacLeod 01 Nov 02 - 07:23 PM
DougR 01 Nov 02 - 10:03 PM
greg stephens 02 Nov 02 - 04:38 AM
Troll 02 Nov 02 - 05:29 AM
Murray MacLeod 02 Nov 02 - 11:38 AM
Troll 03 Nov 02 - 06:17 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Nov 02 - 04:03 PM
Troll 03 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Nov 02 - 08:52 PM
greg stephens 03 Nov 02 - 10:00 PM
Troll 03 Nov 02 - 11:00 PM
DougR 04 Nov 02 - 12:30 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 05:10 PM

I wouldn't say that the Russians have "ruled that area for several hundred years," Troll. They've attempted to rule Chechnya for several hundred years, but only annexed the entire area about 140 years ago. Even then, their grip on Chechnya was rather weak, and there have been periodic rebellions ever since. It's NOT Russia, and never has been.

The Chechens, decimated as they are, still form a vast majority in Chechnya, have declared their independence, and, legally, are not even a part of the Russian Federation, as they refused to sign the Federal Treaty in '92. What more should a nation have to be recognised as independent? They have a better case than... Belgium.

There's not much more to say here about the apartment bombings, other than that no-one who knows anything about the conflict (including many Russians) believes that Chechens were involved. While it can't yet be proven that the FSB did it, either, the evidence points in their direction.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Gareth
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 07:15 PM

Which misses the point. Tell me - do I have the moral right to take a bunch of strangers hostage - threaten to kill them if my demands (reasonable in some eye's - outrageuos in other peoples eyes) are not met ???

The answer can only be no.

As Kiplin said (roughly) If the danegeld you pay,
you'll never be rid of the Dane "


Gareth


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 28 Oct 02 - 09:42 PM

No, you have no right to take hostages, but you might not have many other options. If you were, say, Movsar Barayev, you couldn't field a million-man army, like the Russians. You couldn't send your bombers flying to Moskva, to turn it into a crater. And you wouldn't have the US, cheering your genocidal storm troopers on. It wouldn't be a fair fight, would it? So what would you do? Roll over and wait for a Russian death squad? Sit on a mountain, shooting at helicopters, 'til they drop a bomb on you? Or would you do something desperate?

This has nothing to do with "terrorism," and if these were Lutherans from Estonia, no-one would say so. These aren't Saudi playboys, miffed at US soldiers in their holy land. These are men and women fighting for the survival of a nation, and it's an awful and cruel and dirty fight by necessity.

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 05:51 AM

Lepus Rex,

When the USSR broke up and independence was claimed by the former Soviet Socialist Republics, Chechnya and other areas of the former Soviet Union were not among them. One reason for this was because they would have been totally unviable as "states".

At the end of the First World War when the Austro-Hungarian Empire was dismembered a number of "states" were created that were unviable. In order to make them viable various parts of Germany were broken off, complete with their German populations (who were never consulted on the matter), so that these new states would have some form of industrial capability, some form of natural resources, a corridor to provide access to the sea, etc, etc. Disaffection with this arrangement was one of the root causes of what became known as the Second World War.

So what would make the State of Chechnya viable - various lumps of real estate round about them - so how do they get hold of those - either by force or by persuasion - from what I can see the Chechens have little or nothing to offer so persuasion would be difficult. Perhaps their former rulers could be convinced to continue to support them - sort of like a big theme park.

Maybe large tracts of present day Poland and the Sudatenland should campaign for re-unification with Germany - it would make EU enlargement a bit simpler.

You ask:

"What more should a nation have to be recognised as independent?"
Simple it should have means to survive and thrive as an independent state.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 06:53 AM

No Gareth, noone under any circumstances has the right to take innocent people hostages and threaten to kill them, even if their demands are totally just. But even if they do so, that doesn't make the thing they are demanding any less a just demand.

That's why I gave the extreme imaginary example I did, about Jews in face of the Holocaust.

Waging an unjust war in effect means taking a whole country hostage. In fact it means taking at least two countries hostage, since the people of the home country are also held hostage, more esopecially the conscripts in the army.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 08:44 AM

I just pictured for a moment how the discussion would go if that had happened 20 years ago under Breshnew and there were rumours that the rebels/terrorists have been payed (partly) by the CIA. I could easily picture several posters defending the opposite opinion they defend now, but I'm cynical in that respect.

I think that ending the war in Chechnya and leaving that republic to itself is something that ought to happen and nevertheless think Putin was right not to give in here. If any country starts to consider what ought to happen anyway in situations of terrorist blackmail they pave the way for future actions of a similar kind. I picture a parliament deciding whether something terrorists demand 'ought to happen' and then say, 'o.k. we give in' or 'go on kill the hostages for what you want ought not to happen'.

Some among you seem to see the terrorists in a kind of rosy light and seem to think that giving in to the demands would end all danger and hostility and dying. The first end of the Chechen war did nothing of that kind. Young men who have learned nothing but killing look for other jobs then. Last time a large group went over to Dagestan (a neighbouring republic) to fight and kill there. That's what would happen and those who send them money would be glad. And of course, acts like we have seen would be repeated, contrary to what Lepus Rex has posted.

The war in Chechnya is extremely dirty. For instance, 'Pay 500 rubles or you'll get raped' (Russian soldiers being the ones giving this 'choice') happens too often to be considered single incidents. But the Chechen 'freedom fighters' are also of the worst possible kind. Have you forgotten the pictures of the four decapitated heads on poles when the Western companies did decline to pay enough money for the release of their employees?

One Chechen rebel leader said: "The relation of the Muslim to a non-believer is that of the sword to the blood.' At least some of them believe that and act accordingly. I would not like to see people with these opinions anywhere near me.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 09:08 AM

Thanks for mentioning Dagestan, Wolfgang.
Lepus, I believe that Bush criticized Putin for the war in Chechenya during the Presidential campaign. And I don't believe the US is " cheering your genocidal storm troopers on." If we are, It sure isn't making the international press. I'd appreciate a link or two.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:02 AM

Just a tiny information from a trial in Hamburg, Germany from today. It may look like thread creep at first but it isn't:

In Hamburg, there is now the first trial in Germany against helpers of the terrorists from September, 11th. You recollect that death pilots Atta, Alshehhi, Jarrah came from Hamburg? Now one man, Motassadeq, who the state attorney considers a helper is on trial.

Today, Motassadeq was questioned and said that the above mentioned Arabs had in 1999 considered to go to Chechenya to fight there against the Russians as revenge for the massacres the Russians had committed. They did train in Afghanistan for that fight but he says he doesn't know who (or what) changed their minds.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar
Date: 29 Oct 02 - 11:14 AM

Any comment from Dubya about Vladdy-boy's use of wepnsamassdersturcshn to resolve the crisis?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 09:10 PM

Ah, here's that thread... :)

Teribus: I wonder: Did you support the right of tiny, poor, devastated East Timor to secede from Indonesia? Do you recognise the Republic of Nauru, which takes up, what, 8 square miles of rock, and has an economy based entirely on mining a dwindling supply of fossilised bird shit? These are just two of many independent states on this planet that aren't viable. Chad isn't exactly thriving. The Maldives are sinking. Albania just sucks. Do you support the existence of these states? If so, why not Chechnya?

Troll: Alright, so I exaggerated a bit when I referred to it as "cheering...on." But Bush's tacit support for Putin's "crackdown" in Chechnya and new (since 9/11) willingness to refer to the Chechen rebels as "terrorists" has the same effect. Your boy, who said during the 2000 campaign that he wanted to cut off aid to Russia if they didn't withdraw from Chechnya, sold the Chechens out in return for Russian support for his "war on terror." As far as the Russians are concerned, and as far as I'm concerned, Bush now supports their genocidal war.

Wolfgang: Yeah, so what's your point, about Atta and the rest planning to fight in Chechnya? Really, I'm curious. :)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: greg stephens
Date: 30 Oct 02 - 09:31 PM

I think anybody who thinks about the decisions you might have to take in a situation like this would feel a bit daunted at the possible outcomes...will a hundred die to save five hundred? Especially when you dont have a clue yourself how many will die, you rely on your military advisers, when you know full well they dont have a clue either. in that context, I find the normally fair McGrath of Harlow's description of the Russian's actions as "cold-blooded murder" a little sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 07:20 AM

Greg, didn't you know? Political leaders are always on top of things and always make the correct decisions.
Except for those times when they don't.
Cut Kevin a little slack, please. It's been a rough couple of weeks.

troll

BTW, Lepus, Bush is NOT "my boy." I voted for bugs Bunny.

t


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 07:56 AM

I mentioned Atta boy and the others for the sake of those who don't see connections. They went to Afghanistan training camps to prepare for fighting in Chechenya and the leader of those training camps, a man called Bin Laden, convinced them he had a better use for them.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: GUEST,Lepus Rex
Date: 31 Oct 02 - 10:31 PM

Wolfgang, I guess what I'm wondering is: why is this connection so important to you? What difference does it make where they were trained and for what purpose? If they had gone to Chechnya, it would have been to fight a guerrilla war against the Russians, not to fly planes into buildings or blow up discos. To claim that someone is a terrorist (as Bush does) when one recieves aid from a terrorist organisation is like saying one becomes a baker when one buys some bread. Life isn't so black and white. I mean, if I were a Muslim rebel leader in some oppressed nation, pre-9/11, I would have been more than happy to accept financial or military aid from al Qaeda.

And Greg: Do you really think Putin was wringing his hands, sobbing about the potential loss of life, when he ordered them gassed, as one victim said, "like cockroaches?" The Russian leadership, now, as always, is cold-blooded, and their citizens are little more than pawns to them.

Oh, and "cold-blooded" could also be used to describe the summary excecutions of the Chechens in the theater, who were gunned down while they "slept."

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 07:38 AM

The "cold-blooded murder" bit referred to the sustained refusal by the Russian authorities to let people treating the surviving hostages have the information they needed to treat them. It seems pretty certain that this has resulted in many of them dying horrible deaths, when they could have been saved.

I don't think describing this as "cold-blooded murder" is any kind of exaggeration. Maybe, as I said, there wasn't an alternative to going in the way they did with the gas, but that is a very different matter.

Just imagine this had happened in London and it was the British government refusing to let doctors in the London hospitals have information about what they were dealing with.

If there were a situation where a bunch of terrorists carried out a gas attack, and refused to let the medical teams have any information about the gas used, that would quite rightly be seen as an additional act of terror.

Maybe the media here have got it all wrong, and the Russian authorities have been cooperating fully, and the doctors who have bitterly complained have been lying for some reason. In that case obviously I'd withdraw that comment. But it doesn't seem too likely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: greg stephens
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 08:15 AM

Well. McGrath, I take your point.But I dont think either of us have the medical or other knowledge to know how many of those who made it alive to the hospital (but then died) would have survived if this knowlege had been available. And anyway that's a side issue. I only queried the phrase "cold-blooded murder" in this context, from someone justly famous on Mudcat for balanced viewpoints and absence of vituperation. I really dont think Putin or anyone else set this up as a carefully planned way of of killing 100+ hostages, which is surely the implication of "cold blooded murder".
   If I send you an attractive Christmas present and it blows up and kills you, that will be c.b.m. But an unfortunate blow to your head with my guitar while pissed and arguing about horse singing folksongs would not, especially if I was aiming at someone else. It would be a very bad thing to do,but not cold blooded murder.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 08:29 AM

What is this? If Bush calls them terrorists or terrorist sympathizers they are automatically the good guys?
Do you really hate Bush so much that you would side with suicide bombers and hostage killers?
Oh, and "cold-blooded" could also be used to describe the summary excecutions of the Chechens in the theater, who were gunned down while they "slept." with suicide bombers and hostage killers?
Do you have documentation for this, Lepus or is this more of your enthusiasm and portic license.
Enquiring minds and all that.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:03 AM

(BEfore you read this message: I'm using even more quotation marks than usual today, so, please, feel free to picture me using those annoying "air quotes.")

"Enquiring minds," eh, Troll? So I guess I know where you get your news, now. :) Here's some documentation, dude. I even went to the Washington Post, JUST for you.

Oh, and no, my views on the Russian invasion have nothing to do with Bush. I've held my pro-Chechen, anti-Russian views for around ten years, and used to bitch about Clinton's position, too. Actually, Bush's election promise to "cut aid to Russia" was the ONE thing I was looking forward when he was "elected." Too bad he sold the Chechens, like cattle.

And, I'd like to point out once again: The Chechens killed TWO hostages, both killings involving escape attempts. The rest were slaughtered by their "saviours." And I haven't seen any proof that there were any real "bombs" in the theater. All those "terrorists," and not one of them could set off a single bomb? I mean, I have no experience as a suicide bomber, but aren't they usually pretty easy to set off? Like, with the click of a button?

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Bagpuss
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 09:14 AM

Well Troll, how do you think the terrorists died. Some may have died from the poison gas, but not 100%. I can't imagine any of them were still awake either. So they must have been killed while they slept. What do you think happened?


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 12:49 PM

It would appear that the terrorists indeed died from being shot and that some of them were already unconscious. I appreciate the Post article. We have not had any such in the local english language papers here in Tokyo.
I would imagine that when the Russian Team broke in, they shot first and then asked questions. That seems logical to assume. Anyone with a gun is a target. As far as the bombs are concerned, the terrotists claimed they had them and the hostages reported that they had them. What more do you want?
Why didn't they set the bombs off? I have no idea. Maybe they were fakes, which would be gross dumb. Maybe they weren't made properly. Maybe the bombers chickened out. The claim that the terrorists had bombs is not something that was cooked up by the Russian Government. The terrorists themselves threatened to blow up themselves and the building if they were rushed.
The two shooting deaths took place, according to the Japan Times, when a small boy paniced and ran crying up the aslie. The guard was taken by surprise and fired, killing two people near the boy but not hitting him. It was this shooting that convinced the Russians that the terrorists had indeed started killing hostages, an act which they had threatened if their demands were not met.
If anyone has different, credible informantio, please share it.
Sorry to disappoint you Lepus' but they don't even HAVE the National Enquirer over here in Japan.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 06:57 PM

The terrorists would be just as dead had they been concious when they were shot. I don't think the Russians were in any mood to take them prisoner anyway. Just my opinion of course.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 07:23 PM

At the risk of being chauvimistic, if this situation had happened in Britain, the outcome would have been totally different.

The SAS would never have gassed terrorists and hostages en masse. The operation would have been conducted with the intent to save as many innocent lives as possible, with loss of life among the rescuing troops being foreseen and accepted as inevitable.

The rescuing of the innocent should have been the top priority, not the safety of the rescuers.

Furthermore, shooting the terrorists while they were unconscious was totally unjustifible, even although they were Islamic extremists.

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: DougR
Date: 01 Nov 02 - 10:03 PM

But what if the Terrorists, who had announced they were going to, began killing the hostages at dawn, Murray? Would you have just assumed they were kidding?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: greg stephens
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 04:38 AM

Murray, your "it wouldnt happen here" may be credible about some details, but things like that could certainly happen here. Unpleasant decisions do have to be made sometimes. As an obvious examp[le, if some Sep 11 scenario happened, and a hijacked plane was heading for central London or Sellafield, you can be damn sure it would be shot down if there was time to organise that, full of passengers or not. And the Guardian would assuredly be full of letters saying that it was cold blooded murder and so on.Sometimes those in authority feel they have to make a lightning decision that negotiation isnt going to work. Wrong or right, that is the sort of decision that would indeed be taken here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 05:29 AM

Murray, when you are clearing a house room by room, you assume that anyone -I repeat, ANYONE- with a gun is hostile and you shoot them.
PERIOD.
You don't try to take them prisoner unless they are surrendering when you enter the room. In fact if there are no hostages in the building, you throw in a hand grenade first.
You do NOT sacrifice your own men in order to avoid killing terrorists. Since the Russian Army had no way of knowing whether or not the gas had been effective, their shooting of any armed terrorist they came across makes good tactical sense. After all, they could have been playing possum. It's happened before.
Is the SAS scenario that you cited official Royal Army policy or is it merely what you hope that policy is?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Murray MacLeod
Date: 02 Nov 02 - 11:38 AM

Doug, Greg and Troll, all that is necessary is to cast our minds back to the siege of the Iranian Embassy in London in 1981 for a textbook example of how to conduct such an operation.

The SAS put themselves at huge risk during this operation, because the rescue of the hostages was the prime objective, not the safety of the soldiers nor the death of the terrorists. So, I would hazard a guess tht yes, it is official Army policy.

Seems to me that the Russians had slightly different priorities.

I do however take Troll's point about "playing possum".

Murray


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 06:17 AM

The Russians were told by the terrorists that they would begin killing hostages if their demands were not met. Then they killed two hostages. It is possible that the Russian Govt. felt that they HAD to move or risk a bloodbath. It is also likely that the gas was a last minute grasping at anything that might incapacitate the terrorists before they could kill any more hostages.
Introducing gas into a building is iffy at best since you never know how the dispersal will run. I don't believe that the Russians deliberatly gassed the building in an attempt to kill anyone. I think they did what they believed would be their best chance at getting the hostages out alive.
If thet had gone in without the gas, the terrorists would probably have set off their bombs as they had threateed.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 04:03 PM

The refusal to give information about the gas appears to have been an official decision, backed up at the highest levels. It appears to have been determined that it was more important to preserve secrecy than to give the survivors a better chance of living.

"And anyway that's a side issue." At that time, after the siege was over, it was not a side issue. It was the central issue. There were innocent people in hospital, and the doctors were asking for information they desperately needed. I'd trust what the doctors treating the wounded said about how they felt they were being obstructed, and that people died as a result.

(NB I did not say that the decision to use the gas in the first place was cold-blooded murder, and my words just cannot be read in that sense.)

Incidentally the reports I've seen appear to case doubt on whether the captors had actually proceeded with their threats to start executing the hostages, but rather that there had been a fatal shooting resulting from some kind of panic at one point. The important thing here would be whether the Russian Special Forces were acting under the understanding that the threatened executions had started, and that that was the agreed trigger for them to move. That seems likely enough.

But a proper independent investigation into the whole thing, including how it was able to happen in the first place, what happened during the siege and the attack, and what happened afterwards, is clearly necessary. And pretty clearly it will never take place.

And that means that the lessons that could be learned from this, and that need to be learned to stop something like this happening again somewhere else, won't be learned.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 07:29 PM

And just why do you think that the aforementioned investigation will never take place?
I think that, not only will it take place, but that, indeed, it has already begun.
The likelihood of the results of that investigation ever becomming public knowledge, however, is remote. The Russian system is very different from either the British or American systems. They have a legacy of secrecy that will endure for many years. Such things as independent investigators simply do not exist in Russia.
Why do you feel that only an independent investigation can answer the questions you have raised? The Russian Govt. is probably just as interested as you, Kevin, in finding out what happened, but you seem to feel that you should have access to that knowledge; knowledge that could well contain items about breaches of national security.
Why is it so important for YOU to know exactly what happened?

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 08:52 PM

"And just why do you think that the aforementioned investigation will never take place?"

Experience. They hardly ever do. And Troll, from what you say, you don't expect to see one take place either.

Why does it need to be independent? Because there are always people who want to cover up their mistakes, and maybe worse than mistakes. (cf The Widgery report on Bloody Sunday - even a formally independent report can be twisted, so long as the people who have the responsibility of reporting are susceptible to political pressure.)

Why does such an inquiry need to be open? Because the same kind of thing could happen in all kinds of places around the world, and finding out what went wrong isn't just a matter for the Russians to mull over in secret. People with the responsibility for preventing this kind of disaster need to have that information, the same way the doctors needed the information. And they won't get it, or not until too late.

Oh, there'll be a secret inquiry all right, and it might be quite searching. And there'll be a public report which will make sure that all the blame falls in a safe place. And the doctors who spoke up will probably find their careers shipwrecked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: greg stephens
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 10:00 PM

Well. it was me that queried the "cold blooded murder", and I certainly never suggested you were referring to the gassing, I know you were referring to the witholding of information afterwards. "Cold-blooded" means "preplanned" and "murder" implies intent to kill, in any normal meaning of the phrase. I don't believe that holding back that information was a policy carefully thought out in advance to cause people to die after they arrived in hospital alive. And frankly, I don't believe that you believe that either. I think you just said "cold-blooded murder" in the heat of the moment. I think you just made a mistake.


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: Troll
Date: 03 Nov 02 - 11:00 PM

Why are you so sure the information won't be shared?
It just won't be published in the Guardian or the Times.
If I were in charge of the investigation, I sure as hell wouldn't publish my findings to the world. Why let the terrorists know that you've figured out their method. If they think you are clueless, they may try it again and you'll be ready and not only get the operatives but their support personnel as well.
As far as an independent investigation, no, I don't see that happening. As I said, the Russian system is very different from ours.
Not better or worse, just different.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Musical interrupted in Moscow
From: DougR
Date: 04 Nov 02 - 12:30 AM

I agree with Troll. I think the Russians will be very interested to know why things did not go as they probably planned. I don't think they intended to kill all of those innocent people. As far as the terrorists are concerned, the operation was a 100% success. No terrorist escaped, as far as we know.

We probably will not know the results of an investigation, but my world will not stop turning if I don't. I would hope the information will be shared with our government though.

If all of those innocent ones would not have perished, the plan would have been a good one. Free the hostages, and destroy the terrorists.
Unfortunately, it didn't turn out that way.
DougR


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 28 September 8:12 AM EDT

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