BS: British National Dress?

Subject: BS: British National Dress?
From: Alan Day
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 05:30 PM

What would you consider the British National Dress would consist of.Many nationalities have their own National Dress what is ours? The only thing I can think of is a Bowler hat and a rolled up umbrella.
Any thoughts ?

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 05:47 PM

Good heavens. That brings up the question of what the USA 'national dress' might be. IMO, there ain't such animal.

And as a woman, I'm taken aback at the very idea that a 'national dress' question should be so blatantly sexist.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 05:50 PM

it's unlikely you would find that style of dress outside of a small circle of male civil servants in London (circa 1950s) or possibly The Avengers :)
- whatever else it might be it's hardly British or a National Dress! - sorry

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 05:54 PM

I think it would be a burberry coat and wellies and a homeknit sweater and a sensible plaid skirt...male or female would do. mg

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Alan Day
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 05:55 PM

Well how about a Cowboy/Girl outfit Ebbie , Doris Day looked lovely in it and Gary Cooper is still watching that clock.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 05:55 PM

The only thing I can think of is a Bowler hat and a rolled up umbrella.

Gosh - no trousers?

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:02 PM

British National Dress: I'm all for it!

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:09 PM

Peace, are you sure she is not American? Put some cowboy boots on her and you couldn't tell the difference. :)

Alan Day, western gear is very regional. In Alaska they wouldn't know what to do with it; here the men dress, by and large, as they do in New Jersey. It is one of the things I miss from Oregon. In Oregon, most men wouldn't be interred in waist-high pants (I first wrote 'paints'); westerners know that men's jeans should ride on the hipbones.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Alan Day
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:10 PM

Bit overdressed Peace,be sensible !!
Al

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:11 PM

In our climate - you have to be joking!
a bit more like it

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:12 PM

Flat cap, weskit, clogs. That's the wimmin.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:14 PM

Clogs? You were lucky, lad.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:26 PM

"That's the wimmin."

possibly .....

coal brow female workers at Wigan

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Smokey.
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:32 PM

I seem to remember the English national costume to be pinstripe, bowler and black brolly. It was once virtually a uniform in city financial circles, hence the parodying of it in 60s film and TV. I was always disappointed that we couldn't have something a bit more cheerful.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: ClaireBear
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 06:58 PM

Woad?

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 07:15 PM

Traditional Welsh woman's dress
Right, betgwn, and long skirt, open at front of thickly felted homespun cloth.
Left, Red woolen flannel cloak over striped petticoat and apron worn with Welsh hat

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 07:26 PM

The Feileadh Mhor
Simply constructed of wool, often as long as fifteen feet It was boil washed so the material could shrink, bringing the fibres tighter together, making it quite water proof.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Micca
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:49 PM

Em, "betgwn, and long skirt, open at front of thickly felted homespun cloth." How very novel, didn't think the Welsh wimmen were so "casual" in there habits.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 08:58 PM

They know how to live it up
Micca

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Emma B
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 09:09 PM

Well just 'cos it's a music site here are some Wild Welsh Women :)

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 10:16 PM

Here's the bowler hat & umbrella put to use (as well as a few other examples...).

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:10 PM

Ah, but they are held by the one American in the lineup!

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Gurney
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:25 PM

My grandad and his compatriots all wore a dark suit, well polished black boots (instep too, you scruffy begger!), pinstripe shirt with white detachable collar, dogtooth-check flat cap, white silk choker, and a whippet tied to their leg. Sometimes a jack russell. Pub-going gear, this. Almost a uniform.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 20 Aug 09 - 11:46 PM

The word "British" in title ot this thread is a catchresis. With one exception, only ENGLISH has been addressed [pun intended? not sure]. The Scots & Welsh certainly have their own national dress...

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 03:17 AM

Yes in the UK only the English have not got a National Costume, Why?
Many of the Traditional costumes were regional like Gurney mentioned my Wife's Great Grandfather wore the same suit in the exact detail you mentioned. There was of course many classical suits and dresses worn, all on display at the Victoria and Albert Museum. The only traditional suit men wear these days is The Morning Jacket,striped trousers and waistcoat,but only for Weddings, Ascot etc.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Emma B
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 04:22 AM

"England was the first country into the industrial revolution creating generations of town and city dwellers who adopted an industrial form of dress which was more related to occupation and social class."

There are some excellent examples of occupational dress from the 'clothes of the cut' to the distinctive regional patterns of fishermens ganseys

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 04:26 AM

...yes: we should be discussing, rather, the national dress of Scotland (kilts?), Wales, England (Morris-like?), and, perhaps, the Isle of Man...

(P.S: the famous rugby comp. is now the 6 NOT 4 nations.)

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 04:57 AM

Gurney do not forget the Gold or Silver watch on the Albert chain proudly worn and then passed on to the oldest. I have my dear Grandfathers Watch and chain featured on his suit on his wedding day.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 05:42 AM

Well, I'm a good solid English citizen and I think my daily attire of thong, wellies, silk choker and fedora should be adopted nationally. It's a bit breezy in the winter months, mind you, but it's a good, distinctive costume and quite attractive in a sort of perverted way. Beards are optional, by the way.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 05:44 AM

"Scotland" [kilts?]" - asks WAV. Kilts in the Highlands, tartan trews in the Lowlands — regional variations important, of course. & various kinds of bonnet for the Scots: Hieland bonnet with its ribbons, Tam o' Shanter with its bobble ...

Earlier the farmworker's smockfrock, tho only worn as work dress, was a sort of English national dress I suppose, tho only among agrarian labouring-class; but that disappeared completely in early C20.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 05:57 AM

I am reminded that the trousers just above the ankles were tied up with string to prevent rats running up the legs.
The Smock ,yes I had forgotten that,is that the nearest to a National dress (no pun intended)?
Same time same place Will?
Al

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 06:15 AM

Same time, same place, Al - bring your thong.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Micca
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 06:28 AM

Based only on a cursory observation of its widespread occurance the English national dress (male)it must be Jeans (scruffy)or extremely uunflattering shorts over paty white legs, T shirt(with slogan or pop group or football club strip).This seems to be the most widespread male attire in this part of London

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: bobad
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 06:41 AM

Can someone elucidate, for an uninformed colonial, exactly what a "choker" is? A link to an illustration would be helpful. The images I get from Google are not, I believe, what you are referring to.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: theleveller
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 07:16 AM

"Can someone elucidate, for an uninformed colonial, exactly what a "choker" is?"

Usually, a short knotted scarf. In Will's case, I dread to think.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Mr Red
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 07:20 AM

Morris regalia?

Given the tradition of dressing as women (whatever your gendre category) - particularly Molly - I think we can claim that Morris is PC despite head-teacher's protestations.

Scots (& Irish) Kilts.

I think the Welsh are lagging behind a bit though.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 08:34 AM

Thong Will as well as the Fireman's Helmet?
Al

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Alan Day
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 08:37 AM

At least the Welsh have a traditionally known costume we have nothing.
Al

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 08:54 AM

"Well, I'm a good solid English citizen and I think my daily attire of thong, wellies, silk choker and fedora should be adopted nationally. It's a bit breezy in the winter months, mind you, but it's a good, distinctive costume and quite attractive in a sort of perverted way. Beards are optional, by the way." (Will)...my lunch had gone down quite nicely until I read that!

Micca - jeans are more of an American thing, surely.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 10:22 AM

Originally fishermen's slops from Genoa, Italy - hence jeans, commonly made of serge de Nimes (denim) from France. What's so American about that? But I think Micca's observations hold up pretty well even if there is strong competition from the shalwar kameez in sunny Plaistow.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 10:27 AM

I think the 3 piece suit topped off with a hat relevant to your social class was the English equivalent of National dress in Victorian times but the Empire made British modes so widespread that it ceased to be a National dress.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 10:38 AM

denim shirt, blue jeans, red Brooks high-tops and bowler hat (you think I'm kidding don't you? *LOL*

Olivia Beak (Ms)
fashionista (failed)

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Will Fly
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:17 AM

A choker is a knotted scarf - very popular with the Cockneys in the Victorian period.

At least the Welsh have a traditionally known costume we have nothing.

Yes - but who wants to be stereotyped by dress? As for Welsh dress, I can picture Welsh women in their skirts and puritan-style hats - but the men? Nothing springs to mind. Say "Scotsman" and we tend to think of kilts, sporrans, shortcake, tartan, bagpipes. How awful - to be instantly conjured up as a tourist stereotype.

Al - let's stick to our thongs and wellies. I just know the folk club bookings will start to flow in. I'm preparing fliers (illustrated) even as I type this. What colour thong would you like? And black wellies, by the way - green ones are so "county", doncha know...

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:23 AM

Is Britain so monolithic that it can have only one national dress? I think not.

If so, everyone should dress like the Beatles because they made the most money. :)

Maybe like Knights of the Roundtable replete with armor.

What the world doesn't need is more stereotypes.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:27 AM

"Well, I'm a good solid English citizen and I think my daily attire of thong, wellies, silk choker and fedora
-Walkaboutsverse

The word fedora comes from the title of an 1882 play by Victorien Sardou, Fédora, written for Sarah Bernhardt.

The fedora has to go, it's French not English *LOL*

Olivia Beak (Ms)
fashionista (failed)

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:32 AM

ooops I forgot this bit....

The bowler hat was devised in 1849 by the London hatmakers Thomas and William Bowler.

Oh jolly what me hat is English!

Olivia Beak (Ms)
fashionista (failed)

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 11:40 AM

It hhad a plunging neckline----but had been stitched shut. It also had a zipper, for convenience, about 6 inches below the bellybutton.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: Micca
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 12:34 PM

according to Dylan Thomas a couple of components of the Welsh national dress (male) might be
" Jack Black prepares once more to meet his Satan in the
Wood. He grinds his night-teeth, closes his eyes, climbs
into his religious trousers, their flies sewn up with
cobbler's thread, and pads out, torched and bibled,
grimly, joyfully, into the already sinning dusk.

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: sian, west wales
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 01:23 PM

Actually, Welsh men these days have a kilted outfit that is pretty run of the mill as these things go, but popular and available on rental from most men's outfitters. Traditionally there is an outfit comprising knee britches (clos penglin), short jacket (often blue) and waistcoat. White stockings and black shoes with silver buckle. Flat quaker-style hat.

Re: women's dress, there was an excellent exhibition in the National Library recently which brought home the major differences in regional Welsh dress. The tall hat wasn't ubiquitous, and even tall hats varied in shape where they did take hold. Not many the shape of the kiddies' version you see on St David's Day. Many working women wore cockle-shell bonnets or version of the 'Jim Crow' hat famous throughout Britain. I guess red or navy hooded capes were pretty popular all over Wales.

Re: English 'national' dress, what nation? Far more interesting to have Cornish dress, Norfolk dress, Cumbrian dress, etc.

sian

Subject: RE: BS: British National Dress?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 21 Aug 09 - 01:54 PM

my brain hurts