BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 05 Jul 24 - 07:36 PM

Was the EU referendum advisory?

"In the end, the argument comes down to different visions for democracy in the United Kingdom. The conventional view is that ultimate political power lies with Parliament. The High Court came to its conclusion that the referendum was not legally binding guided by “basic constitutional principles of parliamentary sovereignty and representative parliamentary democracy”.

Cameron, PM at that time, said that he would accept the decision of a referendum.

The law may say that a referendum was not binding, but the government of the time agreed to be bound by it.
Admittedly Cameron, on getting the 'wrong' result, then jumped ship!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 02:45 AM

In a social media post, Mr Trump wrote: "Congratulations to Nigel Farage on his big WIN of a Parliament Seat Amid Reform UK Election Success.

"Nigel is a man who truly loves his Country."

Need I say more?

I truly despair at times. How can people be so blind as to not see through the facade of being "one of the people" that the slimy, grinning toad projects? Maybe it's me. Sigh...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:15 AM

A better option would be to build closer ties and work toward a long term goal of eventually rejoining on the right terms."
Agreed.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:43 AM

Referenda: They've always been a bolt-on to the UK's body politic. I believe the first one in the UK was called by Harold Wilson to confirm Britain's EU membership; comment at the time was that he'd done so to go over the heads of [some of?] his Cabinet, who disliked the Common Market.

Please correct me if I'm misremembering. It's raining here, and the rising humidity is causing my brain to throw parity errors.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:01 AM

Good (and accurate I think) piece on UK referendums in Wikipedia. Too long for the standard link maker so C&P it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Referendums_in_the_United_Kingdom#:~:text=Only%20three%20referendums%20have%20ever,and%20became%20the%20European%20Union.

Interesting item in it. I suspect it could be the only thing that Clement Attlee and Margaret Thatcher could agree on :-)

"In May 1945 the then Prime Minister Winston Churchill suggested holding a referendum over the question of extending the life of his wartime Coalition until victory was won over Japan. However, Deputy Prime Minister Clement Attlee refused, saying "I could not consent to the introduction into our national life of a device so alien to all our traditions as the referendum, which has only too often been the instrument of Nazism and Fascism." In March 1975 Margaret Thatcher also quoted Clement Attlee that referendums are "a device of dictators and demagogues" as Napoleon, Mussolini and Hitler had exploited their use in the past."

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:17 AM

Dave, this ‘Simple Linkifier’, written by a Mudcat Member whose name I’ve forgotten, makes creating Blickies simpler, and it takes care of URLs which are too long for the standard ‘Make a link (“blue clicky”)” link.

I use it all the time - it’s dead easy.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:22 AM

In a 1975 pamphlet Prime Minister Harold Wilson said: "I ask you to use your vote. For it is your vote that will now decide. The Government will accept your verdict." The pamphlet also said: "Now the time has come for you to decide. The Government will accept your decision — whichever way it goes."
Peter Shore was a cabinet minster in Wilson government who opposed Europe, There were other cabinet minsters too who opposed Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:27 AM

So Harold overode cabinet minsters WHO WERE MPS to press for joiniing Europe.
It appears I am better informed about uk politics, than our correspondent from Dover and Deal

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:31 AM

@Dave - here ya go!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 05:46 AM

The 1975 vote was not whether to Join the EEC, as it was then, but whether to remain in it or not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:00 AM

Thanks BWM - I was aware of it but had forgotten due to old age, poverty and the Tories :-D

Bookmarked now

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:11 AM

The United Kingdom European Communities membership referendum was a public vote that took place on 5 June 1975, on whether the United Kingdom should remain a member of the European Communities which was principally the European Economic Community (the Common Market) as it was known at the time.
it was not about staying in the EU.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:14 AM

The 1973 enlargement of the European Communities was the first enlargement of the European Communities (EC), now the European Union (EU). Denmark, Ireland and the United Kingdom (UK) acceded to the EC on 1 January 1973.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:18 AM

No problem Dave. I find it really useful, and very easy to use. I wish I could remember, and thank, the member who wrote it - maybe Dave-Ro?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:19 AM

Seven members of the Cabinet, including Tony Benn and Michael Foot, favoured withdrawal.
Wilson overode them

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:25 AM

I am confused, Dick. You said (06 Jul 24 - 04:27 AM) "Harold overode cabinet minsters WHO WERE MPS to press for joiniing Europe", (emphasis on "joining") implying that Wilson called the referendum to JOIN the EEC (As it was) That was NOT, as I said, the purpose of the referendum in 1975. You then go on to point out exactly the same thing that I said. It was whether to remain in the EEC. Was your first statement a mistake?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 06:49 AM

Yes, I should have said for remaining in the common market. we all know the uk joined The Common Market or EEC, NOT the EU in 1973

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 07:07 AM

Seven members of the Cabinet, including Tony Benn and Michael Foot, favoured withdrawal.
Wilson overode them

No, as others have made clear, Wilson did not override them. He gave the UK public the choice to agree with either them or him.
A totally different way of dealing with the matter. If the public had agreed with Benn & Foot, Wilson had committed to accept the outcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 07:55 AM

he out manouvered the members of his cabinet, unlike Cameron he knew what he was doing.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 10:36 AM

Thanks Dick. Glad we cleared that up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:41 PM

Well, Labour have only been in power one day. The Rwanda nonsense has been cancelled and England are in the Euro semi finals. What more can people want? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 03:50 PM

Southgate and Starmer seem to have something in common, both play a boring game but win

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Jul 24 - 04:45 PM

:-D Nice one Dick

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 07 Jul 24 - 04:16 AM

Well, Labour have only been in power one day... What more can people want?

What they seem to be doing, namely appointing ministers with some knowledge of the subject of their departments. For the most of last 14 years, ministerial appointments have been about party management, which is how we ended up with something like 10 Education ministers in 14 years, with them tending to be in place for shorter and shorter terms. That was a pattern of all the ministries.

One newspaper had a moan that the ministerial appointments we just removing the 'shadow' for ministers. Obviously, the writer wanted excitement rather than people who had actually spent time thinking about the relevant ministry.

I am particularly taken with the appointment of Patrick Vallance to a a role in the Department of Science, and James Timpson to a role in prisons.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Jul 24 - 05:58 AM

Good to see that Starmer has filled the Cabinet to a great extent with the people who had covered their ‘shadow’ briefs whilst in opposition, and thus have experience in their areas - in contrast to, for instance, Johnson’s weeding out of those who disagreed with him in 2019. Country first, party second - way to go.

And I strongly approve of the appointment of James Timpson - a man who has spent a lot of time in prisons, working with prisoners on rehabilitation projects, and who actively employs ex-prisoners in his shops.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 05:21 AM

From 2016 (when it was topical)

It still seems topical now:

BOJO (ET TU GOVE)
Nigel Parsons 2016
Tune: Bobby Shaftoe

Boris Johnson, Dearie me.
Oh dear, the ignominy.
Will Gove prosper? Wait and see.
(But) Boris has been shafted!

   Boris Johnson, bright & fair.
   Can't control his shock of hair.
   Like a cuddly teddy bear.
   Bonnie Boris Johnson

Boris fought against Remain.
Thought he might the 'top job' gain.
Gove reneged, and, oh the pain.
Boris has been shafted!

   Boris Johnson, bright & fair.
   Can't control his shock of hair.
   Like a cuddly teddy bear.
   Bonnie Boris Johnson

Michael Gove has gone astray,
Let's support Theresa May.
Possibly he'll rue the day -
That he shafted Boris.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 12:19 PM

:-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 08 Jul 24 - 01:49 PM

I've just read this in John Crace's latest column:
Still, I suppose there are a lot of unemployed ex-Tory MPs, so maybe they might like to retrain for the construction industry. I can just see Liz Truss as a plasterer. Jacob Rees-Mogg as a chippy.
when I suddenly recalled those posters suggesting ballet dancers retrain in IT.

I might see if I can mock up an equivalent.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 02:54 AM

Dave the Gnome posted in the American Presidential thread:

"Far right kicked out in the UK
Far right kicked out in France
Come on, USA. Give us the hat trick! :-)"

Probably more accurate to say that the Far Right did not get in in France, at least not yet. It remains to be seen how things are going to work out there.

I would not call the Tory party Far Right, especially this last government which had ended up with some policies which were not the usual Tory fare.

I don't think the Far Right has been kicked out in the UK. The vote for the Right was split between the Tories & Reform. We are in an unhealthy position, especially when you consider nearly 40% did not vote.

Labour are in a position to be able to improve things and hopefully convince more people to vote for them at the next election. It will not be easy, especially dealing with the immigration issue. There are no easy answers for dealing with that, as can be seen by how other countries are trying to deal with it.

I wish Labour the best of luck.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 03:27 AM

It was a bit of hyperbole to gee up our American friends :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: MaJoC the Filk
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 09:53 AM

> I can just see Liz Truss as a plasterer. Jacob Rees-Mogg
> as a chippy.

Slapdash is what they were. I wouldn't trust either of them with any building-trade tool.

.... I wonder if they were responsible for the front room in our first house: every wall leaned slightly in or out, and there was not one corner of the room that contained a true right-angle. The entire row of houses was built on a slope, and they were only kept from sliding down it by the tops of the porches, like a row of drunks propping each other up.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 10:33 AM

Did they lean to the right? :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 10 Jul 24 - 05:20 PM

In the finals now. Starmer is doing great :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 11 Jul 24 - 01:25 PM

Mr. Control Freak starts to make his move.

Nigel Farage stirs tensions in Reform UK as he ousts deputies

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 17 Jul 24 - 02:19 AM

Article in The Guardian today.

Labour divided over calls to scrap first past the post after landslide win

"Sandy Martin, a former Labour MP who now chairs the Labour Campaign for Electoral Reform, says thinking about a move to PR should be a priority for the party, despite the way it benefited so handsomely from the current system.

“It would only take Reform and the Conservatives to unite and they might have a majority on the same scale we had this year,” he said. “But under PR, Labour would most likely be able to form a government quite comfortably with the Liberal Democrats or the Greens, and this would be preferable to a Conservative-Reform government.”

As well as self-interest, Martin said, first past the post felt increasingly inappropriate when only 58% of the vote share went to the main two parties: “In England we now have five parties, and in Scotland and Wales you have six. You can’t run a first past the post system – where one party is basically trying to beat the other party – when you’ve got five or six parties to play with.”"

++

Probably unlikely to see any changes during this government's term of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Jul 24 - 09:35 AM

I think you are right with your last line, Rain Dog, but it is a step in the right direction as far as I am concerned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: DMcG
Date: 17 Jul 24 - 11:02 AM

I am afraid Proportional Representation always looks less attractive to those who got a big majority under FPTP ...

I was interested to read in the King's Speech that "Legislation will be brought forward to introduce a duty of candour for public servants.”

That remains to be seen. I am strongly reminded how Blair wanted to introduce Freedom of Information for the same reason, got the Green paper, realised that it could lats of problems for the government and set Jack Straw to produce the White Paper who cut a lot of it out. Even so, I have heard comments that he regrets the idea.

Much more recently, Sunak promised to bring integrity to the government, and we know how well that lasted.

I hope Starmer follows through with strict rules on 'duty of candour', but it would not surprise me if this went the way of similar ambitious ideas.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 18 Jul 24 - 08:19 AM

Some interesting reading in the Hallet Covid enquiry findings. Nothing surprising though seeing as the whole pandemic was managed by a set of spivs out to get what they could and a prime minister who was only interested in furthering his own career and those of his cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 05:52 AM

Advocates of capitalism are very apt to appeal to the sacred principles of liberty, which are embodied in one maxim: The fortunate must not be restrained in the exercise of tyranny over the unfortunate.”
— Bertrand Russell, Sceptical Essays (1928), Essay, XIII: Freedom in Society, p. 103

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 20 Jul 24 - 07:16 AM

It is one of those classic experiments - to prove once and for all how bad the pandemic was handled is to have another, equally virulent and lethal one, but get the response right. even then this des not eliminate the covid pandemic providing the learning curve as we cannot revert back to the same experiential baseline.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 06:29 AM

I was unsure which thread to post this message in. It is about the Post Office/Horizon inquiry. I have posted on this topic in the Belief in Technology thread. I thought this thread might be more appropriate.

It is from the Nick Wallis blog Post Office Scandal.

Ed Davey: Chocolate Teapot


It is a fine example of how the Government and Civil Service acts at times.

A word of warning for those of you who are not too fond of Tories. A well known Tory MP makes repeated attempts to get answers on behalf of a constituent to no avail. Sometimes those we are not fond of do try.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Rain Dog
Date: 23 Jul 24 - 08:31 AM

Article from The Press Gazette June 25th, on Tristan Kirk

The Evening Standard‘s Tristan Kirk has been fighting a lone campaign to shine a light on nearly a decade of secret criminal trials.

"Kirk, who is the Evening Standard’s courts correspondent, won the Private Eye-run Paul Foot Award this month for his work exposing how the “single justice procedure” for Covid-related offences had created a “conveyor belt” justice system and led to miscarriages of justice.

Under the single justice procedure, introduced in 2015 for those accused of minor crimes, there was is no longer an automatic hearing. Instead, a letter sent to the accused specifies the dates between which their case will be dealt with by a magistrate and features a form they can use to respond to the charge.

The form has three options: the accused may say they are guilty and do not want a hearing, that they are guilty and they do want a hearing or that they are innocent, which automatically results in a hearing.

If there is no hearing, there is nothing for reporters to sit in on, meaning decisions are made with little, if any, scrutiny."

++

It is another example of how in this modern age we are getting less coverage of court, council proceedings etc. Not a healthy state of affairs.

I used to look at Tristan Kirk's Twitter page before Elon Musk limited access to non-users like myself.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 06:05 AM

I started a thread about the Southport tragedy and subsequent riots but things have progressed now and the right wing thuggery needs to be called out here instead.

It is despicable how these thugs are using the tragedy for their own nefarious purposes. Yet I am seeing people on Faceache trying to justify their actions as patriotic and even necessary because "Muslims are taking over the country" or we have a "2 tier police system which favours immigrants". I have even seen an erstwhile poster on here (long since banned) saying that the vile Yaxley-Lennon is right and proves that the government are hiding things from us.

WTF has happened to people? Where has common sense and decency gone? Rhetorical of course as I know that the vast majority of people fully understand that the right wing shite is just that - right wing shite.

Trouble is that while the nicotoned stained man-toad, Farage, and his cronies are given the facade of respectability, we are going to see more of this. Maybe it is a good thing that Reform UK is supporting the "protesters". As long as they do there is a chance that they will be classed as a terrorist organisation and banned from holding office. We can but hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 07:00 AM

Here is an example of how gullible people are -

Go to the Twitter page of Tommy Robinson, see the videos, listen to his documentaries. This man is NO racist, but he stands firm against muslim terrorists. Don't you? He knows more about the cult of Islam than most. He's the man who was telling the police for years about the muslim grooming gangs...and police ignored, leaving thousands of young girls to be raped by these evil men. Watch his doc. on the evil 'Hope Not Hate' group who malign him all the time. They are truly wicked, paying people to tells lies about those they seek to destroy. He has repeatedly called for peaceful protests.

This person genuinely believes this. There is little hope for us while the hard of thinking are allowed to post their vile nonsense. Social media sites need to step up to the mark and fact check posts like real news outlets do.

Talking about fact checking, have you seen "10p Lee" Anderson's latest faux pas? Would be hilarious if it wasn't for the fact that this idiot has a say in running our lives :-(

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 04 Aug 24 - 05:31 PM

Its a very weird situation. Riots on Weymouth seafront tonight. Just watching it on telly. Most of the rioters look well struck in years. Used to they would blame this stuff on teenagers.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 02:34 AM

Some very dark humour around, concerning the rioting and looting currently happening around the UK on the pretext of protesting the murder of three children in Southport.

In one cartoon yesterday, a young boy asks his father, “What did you do in support of the three murdered girls, Dad?”. Dad’s response - “I broke into Gregg’s and looted a Steak-bake, son”.

The likes of Farage, 30p-Lee, and Yaxley-Lennon have a great deal to answer for.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 03:16 AM

one of the classic ways to divide society is to divide and rule
whipping up anti immigrant feeling falls in to this category imo
.Why was someone who was mentally disturbed allowed to be unsupervised and attack and murder.
Farage, 30p-Lee, and Yaxley-Lennon are not to blame for that, but i agree their behaviour in whipping up racial hatred is despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 05:18 AM

The only thing we currently know about his mental state is that he is diagnosed as having an autistic spectrum disorder. There are currently nearly half a million people with that diagnosis in the UK and it is estimated that between half and one million are on the autistic spectrum but undiagnosed. Do you think that they all should be supervised, Dick?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 05:20 AM

”Farage, 30p-Lee, and Yaxley-Lennon are not to blame for that, but i agree their behaviour in whipping up racial hatred is despicable.”

And they are far from being alone in that. There are plenty of other well-known figures doing precisely the same - including at least one challenger for the position of Tory Party Leader. They are all utterly reprehensible and despicable.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics - 3
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 07 Aug 24 - 05:21 AM

A-a-a-and…..700.