BS: Gustav

Subject: BS: Gustav
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:08 AM

What the hell??????

"The US Army Corps of Engineers programme manager, Bill Irwin, yesterday warned that gaps remained in New Orleans' flood control system and that it was still vulnerable despite improvements after Katrina. The agency was rushing to install temporary flood-prevention structures, Irwin said."


3 YEARS and still gaps? Temporary flood prevention?

I repeat:
WHAT THE HELL??????

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:31 AM

The New Orleans canal system has a control board made up of local political appointees. It is not a federal system. This group of idiots have been spending federal money on landscaping (done by their relatives) and building new parks (and naming them after themselves) for years. At least 70% of every dollar the US taxpayers send to New Orleans dispears in graft and corruption. Look at William "Cold Cash" Jefferson and realize he is the norm, not the exception.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:32 AM

Gas prices tend to bounce up for the Labor Day weekend anyway, but I see a six cent increase from yesterday to today. We are being warned to have full tanks and bottled water even here in North Texas. They expect a wave of people from the Gulf Coast if the storm hits there on Sunday or Monday.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: GUEST,GM
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:35 PM

Best Gustav was Mahler

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 09:59 PM

Stay safe all you MUDcatters, etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:05 PM

The Republicans have said that they are willing to re-schedule their convention and allow all the governors and other political leaders to stay at home and direct the response to Gustav, should such a move be needed.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:26 PM

Levee repair is in the hands of the Army Corps of Engineers and the Federal Government. Completion has been side-tracked.

Costs have skyrocketed, and the Federal Government has scaled back.

A two-year-old article gives the sad news. "The change [cost] followed a surprise announcement from the Army Corps of Engineers that the levee reconstruction project, most recently estimated at $3.5 billion, would now cost $9.5 billion if insurance-certified levees were extended throughout the region." -2006 article, costs even higher now.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/03/30/AR200633001912.html

"The news shattered the fragile relationship between Washington officials and Louisiana leaders, who have assumed that the rebuilding effort would cover the entire New Orleans area."
Melancon (D-LA) said he wondered whether the changes reflected the comments made by White House officials such as House Speaker [no longer] J. Dennis Haster (R-IL) after the storm questioning the wisdom of rebuilding the low-lying city."

New Orleans is just as vulnerable to a big storm now as it was before Katrina.
The Bush government has turned its back on the region.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Naemanson
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:55 AM

True story - Back in the 1990s we had a job to do on the base in Brunswick, Maine. We (the Navy construction contracting office) were building a new Army National Guard Training Facility. We ran into some unusual problems including a couple of hundred feet of buried asbestos pipeline next to the officer's barracks. We finished on time and just a little over budget (thanks to the asbestos).

At the same time the base Morale, Welfare, and Recreation office wanted to add on to the bowling alley and make it an all-in-one recreation center complete with a movie theater. Their head office gave the job to the Army Corps of Engineers who contracted it out.

It took the contractor two years to finish the job. In the process he left the bowling alleys open to the weather and ruined the wooden lanes. He built a substandard facility and it was way over budget by the time MWR accepted the job and then asked us to fix it for them.

Before then the ACE was given the job of retrofitting a hospital at the old Loring Air Force Base. The building was being used as an office building by the Defense Finance Activity. By the time they finally finished the maintenance officer swore he would resign if ACE ever was given another job at their facility again.

Bottom line - I do not believe the ACE can do it no matter how many politicians insist they can.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:03 AM

Ah are we not forgetting something here ? who builds houses on natural flood plains ? Does logic not tell you that water always finds it's own level ?

Before any of you go bashing the government or local agencies, try having a go at those foolish enough to set up home inches below sea level.

I happen to think local agencies and government did a lot more than was expected of them. If someone sails in the wind of danger we can't be held responsible if they get into trouble.

Ask yourself this before you go sounding off, would you build a house below sea level a few yards from a coast line ? Exactly. Thank you.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: kendall
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:36 AM

A Woodchuck knows better!

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:41 AM

My (limited) experience with the Corps leads me to think that they do an excellent job when they either do it themselves or directly oversee the work. However, they are as prone to cost-plus, lowest-bid contracts as any other government agency. The Federal contracting regulations, with their priorities for (nominally) minority-owned and veteran-owned companies, don't exactly emphasize fast and competent job completion. From the AP :

"...the corps has run into funding problems, lawsuits, a tangle of local interests and engineering difficulties — all of which has led to delays in getting the promised work done. An initial September 2010 target to complete the $14.8 billion in post-Katrina work has slipped to mid-2011. Then last September, an Army audit found 84 percent of work behind schedule because of engineering complexities, environmental provisos and real estate transactions. The report added that costs would likely soar. A more recent analysis shows the start of 84 of 156 projects was delayed — 15 of them by six months or more. Meanwhile, a critical analysis of what it would take to build even stronger protection — 500-year-type levees — was supposed to be done last December but remains unfinished."

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:08 AM

Maybe they should contract all this to the Dutch. About 27% of the Netherlands and 60% of its population is located below sea level.

The trick is to build proper sea-walls, and look after them properly.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:46 AM

When did the last Cat.3 hurricane hit the Low Countries? Even the worst Channel or North Atlantic storm really doesn't compare - consider yourself lucky.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 10:01 AM

Holland and other countries of that region have very little land. Compare their areas with that of the US which is roughly the size of Europe. We are not in desparate need of land and the federal rebuilding of New Orleans should be "reasonable" in all respects.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: gnu
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:44 AM

The USACE is one of the finest and foremost Engineering organizations in the world. They could have easily defended NO against Katrina... but not against politicians.

Remember this, an old engineering saying, "Given enough time and money, we can do anything."

Engineers do engineering. They do not hold the strings of the public purse.... you do.

BTW, Art, wasn't Katrina a Cat5? I can't trust my memory anymore.

The Tragically Hip weren't Engineers.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:53 AM

Katarina was a Cat 3 at the time it hit land. It may have been up to Cat 5 for short time which is what the news-hawkers love to see. The storm was also 1000 miles across. It stalled over the southern MS-LA area and dumped huge amounts of rain. The NOLA damage by high winds was not as serious as the flood damage.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM

From: kendall - PM
"A Woodchuck knows better!"

But his cousin the beaver controls the water level.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM

The Corps of Engineers should not be blamed; the funds and ultimate direction come from the Federal Government.
The Federal government is responsible for levees along international waterways, such as the Mississippi River system, not the State and cities.
Much was written on this following Katrina, but not easily found in Mudcat.

A large percentage of the world's populations live on floodplains, and depend on them for existence.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:38 PM

The point is the Dutch have built their sea defences to match the conditions that they know are liable to occur in the North Sea, which can be pretty hairy. If it was a hurricane area you can guarantee that they'd have sea defences to measure up to the need.

That hasn't been the case in places like New Orleans. It appears to have been a matter of cut the costs and cross your fingers. In the richest country on the planet.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 02:49 PM

New Orleans Levee Board Mismanaged Levees

Wall Street Journal
Posted by: Chris Steins
28 November 2005

Investigators in New Orleans are determining that a patchwork of local agencies supposedly responsible for overseeing the levee system, called 'levee districts' are to blame for many system failures.

"Engineers and others now say substantial blame for some of those failures lies with the ineffectual patchwork of agencies overseeing the system. A big part of the problem is a colorful relic of 19th-century Louisiana: the local "levee districts" that own and maintain most of the levees and floodwalls. Held up as an essential defense against floods, they also became vehicles for government contracts and political patronage, critics say.

...The Orleans Levee District -- responsible for most flood control in the city and armed with a $40 million annual budget and nearly 300 employees -- had branched out over the years to build parks, marinas, a cash-strapped airport and a dock it leased to a casino gambling boat. Critics and some former board members say the board had lost sight of its original mission.

...Orleans Levee District officials appear uncertain about some details of their charge. Outside engineers who examined the levees after Katrina found evidence of poor maintenance along the 17th Street and London Avenue canals, both of which breached. Their report cited the growth of brush and trees on the earthen embankments, which can weaken the structures. The Army Corps says maintenance should involve removing trees or brush."

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: gnu
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:36 PM

"In the 2005 Atlantic season, Katrina was the eleventh tropical storm, fifth hurricane, third major hurricane, and second Category 5 hurricane." Wikipedia.

My memory is failing. I was sure it was a Cat5 when it made landfall... I know I watched it closely at the time. But, I got a memory like a steel trap... rusted open.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM

Katarina was a Cat 5 for a short time so it is correct to call it that. It was, however, in the upper end of Cat 3 at landfall. The news media kept hyping it as though it were the worst storm in history, which it was not. News reporting is not held to any standards nor are they held liable for "media malpractice".

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Naemanson
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 05:19 PM

You guys can defend the ACE all you want but I have never heard of ANY project they worked on that was successfully completed on time or within budget.

Please note: I used to work in this field (government contracting) and I think I know what I am talking about.

The politicians do indeed control the purse strings but the ACE designs the jobs to fit within those limitations. The problem is not the money but the lack of oversight. As stated above the ACE is as prone to poor contractors as anyone else. But good oversight and continuous pressure on the contractor can result in a good job.

If you are not on site you can never be sure you are getting what you paid for. As an example, we had a contractor building new houses in Maine. Part of the job was fencing to enclose the back yards. He chose to install the fences in the winter when the ground is frozen. The inspector (who visited the site daily) told him the fences wouldn't stay up. He insisted they would. In the spring all the fences fell over. He had to repeat the work at no extra cost. He had not installed them in accordance with the contract requirements.

Our inspectors and engineers were always checking the work. If there were any problems they were there to either work with the contractors to solve them or to ensure the contractor installed things correctly.

Another time the contractor claimed he could not get hinges that met spec and were Made In America. He was adamant about it. During a break in the discussion I drove out to a local hardware store, bought a set of hinges that did meet spec, and brought them back to the meeting. I slapped the package down on the table and told the contractor that the discussion was over.

If your people are not on site you cannot do these things. You have to depend on the contractor to tell you he has met spec. And the ACE rarely bothers to put their people in the field. They sit in their cozy offices and write contracts and accept the contractor's word and let the world go to hell in a handbasket.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 07:30 PM

The Acadian French, like the Dutch were experts in constructing dams, levys and drainage systems in claiming farmland from the sea. In Nova Scotia three hundred year old systems still hold back the tidal rivers that flow to the Bay Of Fundy. (The worlds highest tides). After the great deportation many of these people became the Cajins of Louisiana. I would suspect that they were some of the original levy builders on the Mississippi. No doubt the systems were greatly improved upon over the years but the purpose would have been to protect the floodplain for agriculture, not habitation. I can't understand the reason to build a large city in such a fragile location. Perhaps the destruction three years ago should have opened some eyes but I wonder if it really has? In any case I pray that the people will be spared this time around!

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Alice
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 08:07 PM

The evacuation is under way in New Orleans. All tourists told to leave. Buses and train transportation are set up to take people out of the city who do not have their own vehicles. Gustav is being taken seriously.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 08:51 PM

Everyone tries to simplify the New Orleans situation.
1. It was a city (American sense of the word) beginning back in the 1820s, when French and Spanish and American entrepreneurs expanded the commercial side of the economy. It was built inland, on natural levees, because the French wanted their government safe from hurricanes.
2. Historically, the Mississippi River system flooded every year, water went over the banks into low-lying prairie, woodlands and fields all along the rivers.
3. In the last third of the 19th c., attempts began to control the flooding upstream. Levees and dikes were built along the Miss. R. and its tributaries, funneling more and more of the water into the delta area.
4. As the city grew, oil and water pumped from the sediments underlying the city caused the city to sink, in part to sealevel and below. Three of the New Orleans area parishes (counties) are sinking
5. The delta grew in size, to unforseen extents, because of the sediments carried down the river from both natural erosion and the misuse of land that should not have been farmed.
6. As a result of the flood control structures upstream, natural deposits of sediment that counterbalanced the sinking were both diminished and rerouted
6. In addition to receiving the great quantities of sediment, the old river course was altered.
7. As the economic importance of the city grew, it expanded rapidly, far beyond what it had been in the 19th and even early 20th c.
8. There in no unified governing body for metropolitan New Orleans.
10. Louisiana politics is often acrimonious, the northern part at cross-purposes with the south.
11. Construction of ship canals and industrial developments further disrupted the land.

Storm surge from Katrina caused catastrophic failure of the federally designed and built levees, allowing water into 3/4 of the city.

See:
Rivers and Harbors Act of 1965
Flood Control Act of 1965
The Acts, passed by the 89th Congress, authorized the Chief of Engineers (and the Corps) to design and construct navigation, flood control and shore protection in 11 named areas.
Unfortunately the money authorized was small and never renewed to any extent. The projects were numerous, and included:
St. John River Basin, Maine
Atlantic Coastal region, New England
Long Island Sound
etc., etc., to
Lower Mississippi River Basin
Red River Basin
Upper Mississippi River Basin
San Francisco Bay area
Columbia River Basin

A real nice piece of "feel good" legislation. Unfortunately it put people to sleep, was never properly funded, and did not take into account misuse of funds by the federal government and state governments.
-----------------------------------------
After Hurricane Betsy, control of flood protection was given to the U. S. Corps of Engineers. A project was initiated, to take 13 years to complete. By 2005, when Katrina hit, the project was "between 60-90% complete" (Federal gov't paying 70% and state and parishes paying 30%). See many websites, inc. Wikipedia, for the outlines.
Shortcuts were being taken, the original plan was probably inadequate, and the storm surge, breaching a main ship canal and unfinished areas, brought the catastrophe.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 09:34 PM

"...after Katrina found evidence of poor maintenance along the 17th Street and London Avenue canals, both of which breached."

Responsibility for maintaining levee system was Orleans Levee Board. The Army Corps of Engineers would certainly come in an fix a serious problem if they were asked to. They were not asked.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: artbrooks
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 11:31 PM

Thanks for that excellent overview, Q.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:15 AM

New Orleans Levee Board-
Resonsibility was divided. There are several Times-Picayune articles.
Some of this is compiled in Wikipedia- summation:
"Investigations after the disaster revealed that the levee and floodwall system was apparently mis-designed by the Army Corps of Engineers, and that the inspections by the board were perfunctory at best."
Remember that the waterway of the Mississippi and the ship canals are under the jurisdiction of the federal government, not the parish boards.

The Orleans Levee Board did not have regular government funding or oversight.
Revenues were generated from the Lakefront Airport, a casino, leases, fees from marinas, and taxes. Some income came from investments. Without integration with other parishes, oversight of spending is poor.
The Orleans Board could act only for Orleans Parish; metropolitan N. O. extends beyond these limits. There was no coordination with other boards.
This time, Jefferson Parish is the subject of particular worry with regard to Gustav because construction is incomplete.
Now there are two new boards, one for the east bank, one for the west bank. The boards of parishes have been consolidated; the Orleans Board dissolved in 2007. It remains to be seen how these two boards will function.

In the Times-Picayune today, it is reported that conditions are critical on the west bank of Jefferson Parish, where an incomplete flood defense system leaves residents vulnerable to a surge like that generated during Katrina.

Elsewhere, the Orleans Levee District was stacking sandbags atop a low levee adjacent to the 17th Street Canal, the levee below its design elevation, and had asked for National Guard help from the state. During Katrina, the walls of the 17th Street Canal were inadequate. I don't know if the Corps of Engineers has completed work.

Bags have been placed along "particularly vulnerable" stretches of the Industrial Canal Floodwall, where construction is incomplete.

St. Bernard Parish is being sandbagged; it was flooded by Katrina's surge and if Gustav follows a similar path, could be flooded again.

Trucks and National Guard personnel have been promised by the State;
the parishes do not have sufficient equipment or manpower to deal with a strong hurricane.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 03:52 AM

sponsible for most flood control in the city and armed with a $40 million annual budget and nearly 300 employees -- had branched out over the years to build parks, marinas, a cash-strapped airport and a dock it leased to a casino gambling boat. Critics and some former board members say the board had lost sight of its original mission."

Again, the responsibility for protecting New Orleans from flood damage lies with the local city government. If $40 million dollars and 300 employees is not enough, go "public" and seek help. Fact is that this board is a little fiefdom and they spend money for landscaping near select business and houses owned by the cities "influential" people. There have been parks built and named after board members for their legacy building. Parks that had nothing to do with protecting the city from floods. This is new Orleans "business as usual".

The levees that failed were built by the Army Corps of Engineers in 1965 but used topographic maps from 1929. Land under New Orleans is basically aluvial mud. When Katarina arrived, he levees as built were 3-4 feet lower than they should have been due to subsidence (from 1929 to 2005). One might just hope that the Orleans Levee Board would have at least one engineer on staff and that somebody might notice the problem in 40 years!

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:42 AM

"The Orleans Levee District -- responsible for most flood control in the city and armed with a $40 million annual budget and nearly 300 employees -- had branched out over the years to build parks, marinas, a cash-strapped airport and a dock it leased to a casino gambling boat. Critics and some former board members say the board had lost sight of its original mission."

Again, the responsibility for protecting New Orleans from flood damage lies with the local city government. If $40 million dollars and 300 employees is not enough, go "public" and seek help. Fact is that this board is a little fiefdom and they spend money for landscaping near select business and houses owned by the cities "influential" people. There have been parks built and named after board members for their legacy building. Parks that had nothing to do with protecting the city from floods. This is new Orleans "business as usual".

The levees that failed were built by the Army Corps of Engineers in 1965 but used topographic maps from 1929. Land under New Orleans is basically aluvial mud. The levees as built were 3-4 feet lower than they should have been due to subsidence. One might just hope that the Orleans Levee Board would have at least one engineer on staff and that somebody might notice the problem in 40 years! I'm sure the US Geological Survey coud have sent a crew and told the board's directors the actual hight of the levees to 2 tenthousands of an inch. If none of the 300 employees knows what "subidence" means then there are real problems.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 08:32 AM

I live far from New Orleans but in an area where the sea is a constant reminder of the power of Mother Nature. After Katrina I was amazed that the perceivd main concern was to restore the tourist industry as quickly as possible, while flood control should have been the only concern except for aiding all of those poor folks who suffered and lost the most. Now from what I see on TV flood defense is still lacking, people are still homeless, but the tourist industry has rebounded just fine. $$$$$$$$$$ talks while the poor remain destitute.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 09:48 AM

"... flood defense is still lacking, people are still homeless..."

Not sure what you mean here. Everybody who applied to FEMA after hurricane Katrina was provided food and shelter. There are still people being put up in hotel rooms at taxpayers' expense, three years later. All US cities have a population of homeless, especially the warmer areas of California and some cities in the South.

As far as levee repair, contracts cannot be oppered on a "no-bid" basis (note the hysterical reaction to such contracts in Iraq). In a war, time is everything, but here at home, bids must be submitted, environmental impact reports made (that can take awhile), and construction firms are often investigated to see if they are really capable of doing the job. Construction can take years. In the case of freeways and major bridges, it can take decades.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Donuel
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:06 AM

The administration hope to show more sincere response to this storm.

promises left undone but excuses are finished

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: PoppaGator
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:19 AM

I wrote at some length last night but the message disappeared before I could send it. Happens once in a very great while; too bad it happened this time.

I don't have time to rewrite all that; it's time to run out the door and off to evacuate. We have a motel room in Bessemer, AL, near Birmingham.

In lieu of a rewritten rant, let me offer this informative video:

Latest from Levees.org

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:21 AM

PoppaGator: best of luck to you and friends and family.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Ernest
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:06 AM

Best wishes from here too, Tom.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 11:56 AM

Yo, PG. You weathered worse. Keep safe and keep in touch.


I hate to ask the obvious, but has anyone notified FEMA? If Katrina is anything to go by, they likely aren't aware yet. Sorry, but it had to be said. That's a serious question, btw.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: catspaw49
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:49 PM

Here's a piece to help put you at peace Peace.....so read the piece and be at a bit of peace.......uh, Peace.

Actually I think they're ahead of Katrina but the whole admin makes me nervous so who ta' fuck knows. The Shrub is making noises like he knows what he's doing but of course he doesn't. RNC is making MAJOR schedule changes according to news reports.


Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:57 PM

Thank you, Spaw.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: artbrooks
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 12:59 PM

Has anyone clued in the governor of Florida that they have the responsibility to ask FEMA to come in, and has anyone told them that FEMA has a 72 hour response time? They are not, by definition, emergency responders. According to their mission statement, "The primary mission of the Federal Emergency Management Agency is to reduce the loss of life and property and protect the Nation from all hazards, including natural disasters, acts of terrorism, and other man-made disasters, by leading and supporting the Nation in a risk-based, comprehensive emergency management system of preparedness, protection, response, recovery, and mitigation." Evacuation, care of evacuees, search and rescue, and other such immediate needs are not parts of FEMA's basic job.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:01 PM

from the Associated Press, quote in part of Bush's press conference

"After a briefing Sunday at the Federal Emergency Management Agency, he said he was assured that New Orleans' levees "are "stronger than they have ever been." But he said people across the Gulf Coast and in New Orleans need to understand there is a serious risk of flooding from a storm of this size."

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Stringsinger
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM

As I understand it, New Orleans for years has had wetlands outside their area which protected against flooding by absorbing water. This had been interfered with by the
Army Corps of Engineers who are known to divert rivers from their natural course.

As to PDQ's assertion that everyone was provided for during Katrina, this is false.
Many were subjected to poor conditions in trailers that had harmful chemicals in their construction and the incident at the Superdome has to be a testimony to the inadequacies
of the response of Bush and McCain eating cake and playing guitar at a birthday party.
Blackwater patrolled the streets of New Orleans as paid mercenaries for the Bush government.

There is unmitigated propaganda taking place as to the ability of FEMA to do its job
since the agency has been gutted by the Bush Administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:38 PM

Army Corps of Engineers has announced that levees in N.O. will hold up to a category 3. If it is more than 3, there may be some levee failures.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Alice
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:45 PM

All but 3 of the Louisiana parishes are under a declared state of emergency. The governor of Louisiana is now broadcasting dire warnings to residents of not only the coast, but inland Louisiana, warning of the wind and flooding that will also be in inland with this storm. They are warning residents in mobile homes and lowland areas inland to seek better shelter. They have requested National Guard from other states. Over 50,000 national guard troops will be activated and available for the storm area. They have sent six C1 30's to evacuate special needs people. Special needs shelters are taking in individuals, 53,000 spots in surrounding states to take in patients.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Peace
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 01:53 PM

The expression I read was gaps in the levees, not failures of them. They have holes by the sounds of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:08 PM

They seem to deal much better with hurricane emergencies in Cuba.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 02:12 PM

PoppaGator, many thanks for linking the video.

The myths about what went wrong in New Orleans are widespread, and the video presents the situation clearly and succinctly. It is a must-see for everybody.
Posts, like those by pdq, expose the lack of knowledge people have about this important region, and about federal control of waterways in America.

The federal administration and Congress direct and fund the Corps of Engineers, I felt that more blame should have been directed at them and less toward the Corps, but otherwise the video is excellent.
-------------------------------------------------------

The Sacramento area is a disaster waiting to happen. I have relatives there, their home is a short stroll from the American River, and there is no effective levee system. The Port of Sacramento is on a federal waterway. The area is open to the Central Valley, and saltwater flooding could despoil some of the most productive agricultural land in America.
------------------------------------------------

PoppaGator, I hope that when you return, you will find everything in good condition, and that Gustav is not as damaging as feared.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM

pdq stated:
"In a war, time is everything, but here at home, bids must be submitted, environmental impact reports made (that can take awhile), and construction firms are often investigated to see if they are really capable of doing the job. Construction can take years. In the case of freeways and major bridges, it can take decades."
Well in this case "time" seems to be three years. Mother Nature just has no respect for regulations.
Thanks for the video PoppaGator! I hope all will be well for you and yours!

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM

The Harvey Canal floodwall is predicted by the Corps of Engineers to be completed in April 2009, but local authorities predict 2010 or later. A private contractor, Cajun of Baton Rouge, obtained the contract. The Corps and the contractor are arguing over the cost of the 5th phase.
The first of five phases of the four mile long wall was expected to be in place in April 2008, work is nearing completion.
The wall will give important protection to the West Bank. Large sand bags have been placed, and it is hoped the storm surge will not be high enough to breach the project.
When completed, the top of the wall will be 14 feet above sea level, towering 19 feet above Peters Road.
In the latest note in The Times Picayune, August 31, it was noted that the West Bank project remains incomplete and vulnerable in some spots.

Early attempts by Louisiana to get full financing in place were stalled in Congress by debate over Iraq funding.

Several articles in the Times-Picayune, esp. one by Meghan Gordon, Jan. 5, 2008. See http://www.nola.com/hurricane/index.ssf/levees/

This and other canals, constructed under contract by the Corps of Engineers, made the metropolitan area more susceptible to storm surge, but were deemed necessary for shipping and commerce.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:28 PM

Good to read your post, Poppagator (have you packed your guitar this time?)

best wishes for a speedy return to an intact & dry home after a smaller weather event than the last one (3 years!, I can remember 1st anniversary articles about Katrina, I must have missed or forgotten later commentary)

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 06:57 PM

...for Q, et al who sometimes choose not to listen:

Orleans Levee Board

From Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

From 1890 through 2006, the Orleans Levee Board was the body in charge of supervising the levee and floodwall system in Orleans Parish, Louisiana which is intended to protect New Orleans from flooding. Over the years the Board has also taken on various activities relating to land use on and around the levees.

The Orleans Levee Board was a major governmental entity that functions independently in and around Orleans Parish, Louisiana. Orleans Parish is coextensive with the city of New Orleans. The function of the agency was to protect the greater New Orleans area from flooding and to protect and operate the equipment placed and assigned for that purpose. The board had placed its imprimatur upon and asserted control over such things as far afield as casino gambling and municipal recreational marinas, as these are tied to land use on and near the city's levees. Some critics of the board have charged its members with being more concerned with such lucrative subsidiary activities than with their primary assigned task.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 08:13 PM

The Orleans Levee Board had nothing to do with construction of walls and levees along international waterways such as the ship canals and along the River, except providing advice and some of the funds to add to the 70% provided by the Federal Government.

International waterways and shipping canals are the responsibility of the Federal Government. If you watched the video linked by PoppaGator, you saw that failures along the ship canals were a major contributor to the flooding caused by the storm surge, and caused the failure of levee and pump facilities within the parishes.

I presume that Orleans Board consulted with the Corps regarding canals and levees which are not part of the shipping waterways, but these were subject to whim and local preferences. It is evident, however that the major fault was not theirs.

Secondly, as noted before, the Orleans board had nothing to do with levee, wall and pumping facility construction in Jefferson and other parishes which are part of metropolitan New Orleans, and which also sustained damage from the surge- they had their own boards.

Now there are just two boards, one for the west, the other for the east, banks; we can hope that future projects within the parishes will be more coordinated. But these two boards do not design or control protection along international waterways and shipping canals.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: pdq
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 08:36 PM

"...boards do not design or control protection along international waterways and shipping canals."

And nowhere on this thread did anybody claim that they did.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Barry Finn
Date: 31 Aug 08 - 10:58 PM

Brett
I completely agree with you about the ACE. I worked as a project manager, project super, GC, contractor manager's inspector & was the estimator of a good number of bases, VA's & government installations in the North East including Edwards Air Force (during 9/11), Otis on the Cape, the Naval War College, both Newport bases, Hanscon AFB, major VA's in Brooklyn & a few in Boston & NH as well as some smaller projects. I got to know the inspectors & engineers & they got to know me. As long as they were totally involved with the job they were great. Their spec's were top shelf & I never found it that hard to meet them either, when designed by them it was a bit towards overkill but you knew that they were getting the best. If I had a better idea they were always willing to listen weither it was a cost or a savings, didn't matter as long as it was gonna meet or exceed their expections. On base usually no one else had a hand in the overseeing of construction, off base was a different story, at armories even the janitor had a say in what was to be (people skills was as much a qualification as reading blueprints sometimes). I give the ACE a lot of credit but I can't imagine all the hands that were digging out the fruits of the pie that went into the mess in NO. I do believe that if the ACE were the only ones to oversee all aspects of the reconstruction that it would've been far better, cheaper, stronger & closer to being more timely.

Get a politican involoved & they'll fuck up anything.
They're the ones that want to force the contractors to do something for nothing off site & the contractors have to make up the loss for that on the job that they're contracted to do, which the politican is holding the contract for over their heads. Then there's the swaps & overcharges, the back charges & additional extras that cost's the contract. This doesn't happen when it's overseen by the ACE, at least not that I've ever known or heard about. I always found them a pleasure to deal with & was delighted to be involved with them rather than city or state projects. I worked as GC on the renovation of Boston City Hall, we had to work around the Major's whim & his Louie, the city employees that invented smells so they could shut down their departments so they could take the day off but the engineers & inspectors, clerk of he works etc, the profesionals were great, it's when the bottom feeders get involved that the project starts to sink & panic sets in.

Barry

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:04 AM

Weather Underground has some interesting tracking maps (click on the thumbnail then scroll down for any of the images--it won't open in a new page).

Looks like a sloppy wet Tuesday here in North Texas, they are projecting it will be a tropical depression by then.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Mr Red
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:48 AM

As someone said

History repeats itself. It has to, because no-one is listening.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: SharonA
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:49 AM

Here we go... radar shows that the leading edge of Gustav has hit the U.S. coast. The center appears to be headed west of New Orleans, but that means that the eastern part of the storm -- the stronger part -- is over the city. Pulling water from the Gulf into Lake Pontchartrain, no doubt. Again.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 10:58 AM

Gustav's now degraded to Cat2.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:17 PM

My very wishes and thoughts to all you people over there.
Just watching the news on sky and the levee that they are filming looks pretty near to overflowing from the main canal. I just hope they hold.

The mayor of New Orleans just said that "it doesn't look good, but fotunately we haven't had a breech yet"

Got fingers and legs crossed for you all.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:23 PM

Watching video on tv of the wind whipped waves topping the canal. There is at least one barge that has gotten loose in the canal that is worrisome to possibly damage levee walls.

Lafayette and Baton Rouge will be battered as it is moving that way now.

You can see video of the topping waves at www.cnn.com.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 12:48 PM

Someone that is riding it out in a hospital down town NO just e-mailed me and it is not so bad.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: gnu
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 01:18 PM

Saw on CNN that water levels in some main levees appear to be ebbing slowly. Great news. Of course it ain't over yet. Hope things go well.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:00 PM

Looks like the ship canal walls are holding, which is very good news.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Alice
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 02:20 PM

photos and video at the New Orleans website
http://www.nola.com/

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 03:53 PM

Here's an updated link of impact images from the New Orleans area: Click here

Looks pretty serious to me although the eye of the hurricane is now 80 miles west near Baton Rouge.

The rains and flooding will still be dangerous.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: katlaughing
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 04:40 PM

Poppa, good to hear you are headed to safety. I hope things stay safe at your home and that we won't have to have any more before and after pix ala Katrina! Stay safe!

kat

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 05:48 PM

It's reported on CNN that two of the levies in New Orleans parishes are now overflowing, with eight feet of water on the inner side. The levies haven't given way yet but it doesn't look good.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Beer
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:41 PM

Lets go to the top for a minute. SINSULL says "3 YEARS and still gaps? Temporary flood prevention?".
So my question is. If the levies had been all fixed up would the city have still evacuated? If yes, then will this area continue to evacuate every time there is a hurricane? If the answer is no than shouldn't these levies be fixed up and right away.
The cost to have 2 million folks displaced, the cost to have all the help come in. And I'm sure there are other areas of cost I have not thought of. Am I missing something here? Doesn't a little common sense tell us to fix the levies?
Beer (adrien)
And good luck to all the folks that had to get up and leave.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Peace
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 06:45 PM

PG, y'OK?

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 07:13 PM

From the Aussie reporters 'live' by satellite, it seems now that - using the normal US political system - people will be screaming for blood about the 'unnecessary' evacuation.... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: SINSULL
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:26 PM

No, fool. But the people who evacuated will think twice before doing it again which is how the Katrina disaster happened. Remember the little boy who dried wolf?
Hurricanes are unpredictable. The weather men do their best. The time will come when most will stay to ride it out and die. New Orleans is only one place where this has happened. Texas, Mississippi, Florida, the Carolinas...

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:35 PM

Foolstroupe, I think you are beginning to understand Americans. Don't dwell on it too long, one could go nuts trying.

Seriously, I have been trying to find out about the Clearwater Canal, whose levee seemingly is in danger of rupture. This canal is not part of the waterways system, and the levee is "private." It protects greater downtown Braithwaite, Plaquemines Parish, a community(?) down river from New Orleans, and one on which I can find little specific data.

What is the purpose of the Clearwater Canal?
Is Braithwaite a developer's dream? Pop. some 3300 people in area.
Why is the levee "private"?

Southbys Realty offers an historic plantation house, ca. 1820, on the River and "close to New Orleans," price $1.2 million. Looks brought up to date, with indoor plumbing. "All the modern amenities," but no mention of air conditioning.
Also property offered, $56000, but no details.

Mary Plantation
------------------------

So far, water has shoshed over the federally built and partiallly incomplete levees on the industrial canals, but the walls have held.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:41 PM

Mary Plantation
Mary Plantation

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:43 PM

Won't come up direct. Sorry. It is listed in google under Braithwaite.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Charley Noble
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 08:45 PM

Q-

Those private levies seem to be holding but the real test will be tomorrow with the river flood and the tidal surge.

I seem to remember how relieved everyone was when Katrina passed, only to have the City hammered by flooding afterwards.

Still, I think the preparations were much better this time around, as they should have been.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Sep 08 - 11:01 PM

"No, fool. But the people who evacuated will think twice before doing it again"

Yeah - that's sadly pretty obvious too - even more sadly, the next time those who are so clever that they won't leave may be in even more danger of dying...

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Rasener
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 03:00 AM

Just read this 6:41AM UK time

Caution urged as Gustav weakens

I am stil keeping my fingers crossed for you all and lets hope it all settles down and you are all allowed to go home.

I personally think that the decision to evacuate was very sensible, even though, at this point in time nothing has happened.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 06:45 AM

"cried" wolf not "dried"

Not a matter of being clever, fool. Evacuating costs money, time and emotional distress. For me, sharing a cot with a few thousand others (not to mention, bathroom) in a no privacy gym or evacuation center would be a nightmare. I need my space, my quiet and my privacy. There is always the threat of looters. How may times would you evacuate, leave behind pets and then return to find it was a false alarm? It is human nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:20 AM

"Evacuating costs money, time and emotional distress. For me, sharing a cot with a few thousand others (not to mention, bathroom) in a no privacy gym or evacuation center would be a nightmare."

From what I heard, this time pets were allowed to be taken - more sensible heads had realised that many would just simply not leave without them.

"sharing a cot with a few thousand others (not to mention, bathroom)"

I hear Hell is far less pleasant - that's supposedly where I'm headed...

Of course, I suppose that people can have a right to place themselves in serious danger, but then they have no right to demand that their rescuers have to place themselves also in danger, when they suddenly decide they are not as brave as they said they were.

There are a couple more headed that way, I see on the net... if they look as threatening, we'll see what happens then.

Of course, I DO firmly believe that there was a large POLITICAL agenda this time, just to demonstrate a point that Georgie wasn't TWICE as stupid as people said he is...

"sharing a cot with a few thousand others in a no privacy gym or evacuation center would be a nightmare."

I've been to Christian Youth Camp... bunk beds and all that ... and not sharing bathrooms is pretty self centered - I do understand that some people genuinely feel distress as I did when a little kid, but my dad soon helped me get over concern about using public urinals - which is a little more confronting than what you are thinking about.... :-)

"Evacuating costs money, time and emotional distress"

Yep - drowning IS cheaper - but there was a lot of outcry about that last time... :-P

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 08:24 AM

"How may times would you evacuate, leave behind pets and then return to find it was a false alarm? It is human nature."

I put this in a separate answer on purpose.

I agree with you entirely - but in litigious USA - last time people wanted to sue for damages when they were left to drown - it was good fortune this time - there are a few more 'weather occurrences' headed that way I hear.

Either way, the powers in charge will be criticised, I suppose.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:20 AM

I'll never forget the first time I visited New Orleans. I walked across Jackson Square and over to the riverfront. Before me was a steep, high bank of grass. 'What's up there?' I asked.

We walked up. UP there was the river! Not a small river, but the Mighty Mississipp. I shook my head. 'I much prefer the Kansas City system, where the river's down and the town is up.'

New Orleans is an impractical, vulnerable place to live. If you want safety and peace of mind, don't live there.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Charley Noble
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:34 AM

I am curious if the new policy of "no pet left behind" was implemented. People do care about their pets, and it was heartbreaking that so many had to be left behind in Katrina's wake.

It seems likely this given the morning reports that flooding while threatening will be relatively minor compared to Katrina, at least in New Orleans.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:52 AM

Yesterday I drove to Arlington, TX, the next large town over from Fort Worth. On the way home we must have passed at least a half-dozen lighted signs telling Gustav evacuees how to get to the shelter set up for people travelling on I-20. I presume they chose the shelter they did because it was the easiest to direct people to with simple signs like this.

Smart bureaucrats and social service suppliers will know this wasn't just people escaping a potentially bad storm, this was a way to test the readiness of a lot of folks along the way. Though some will grumble they shouldn't have left after all, many people benefited from the practical exercise to see if the evacuation plan works.

No rain here yet, but it has moved over east Texas.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:54 AM

They seem to deal much better with hurricane emergencies in Cuba. (McGrath).

That's what they say. However, in totalitarian countries as Cuba, all reports of the press are cleared with the party and paint a picture of a succession of successes.

Am I cynical? Yes. There was too much GDR propaganda I have believed and defended as true only to find out later that I had believed lies. Not even train accident casualties (easy to count) could be believed. The whole system was based on a near continuous flow of lies (and not only about serious matters as the death penalty). That was known to most of the GDR population and had the effect that they did not even believe the papers and TV when they told the truth. (There were some bad surprises in recent years when the free market capitalism showed to be nearly as bad as it was portrayed in the GDR propaganda)

Do I imply that the Cuban leaders lie about the effect of the hurricanes? Not necessarily. They might be telling the truth. I just don't know. But a country in which "the spreading of "unauthorized news"" is prosecuted is not a country whose official statements I have much trust in.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 09:58 AM

Charley, I heard a radio interview with a woman packing pets into crates for evacuation, I assume it was at some collection point as she was not just packing her own animals.

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:28 AM

Pets can not be allowed into the large evacuation centers - allergies alone, nevermind the potential for bites, fights, etc. I don't know what facilities were available for them this time.

For the record, we are discussing the problem not disagreeing or even arguing.

I rode out hurricanes with my family as a child when common sense dictated get out. I remember watching the tide come in and cover cars on the street while we waited to see how high it would go. Howard Beach is also below sea level, a swamp drained and built up in the 40s and 50s during the post war housing boom. There have been multiple floods there over the years. The last one came on a full moon and a full tide with a heavy wind not a hurricane and took everyone by surprise. Several of my relatives were flooded out of their homes.

People will not evacuate next time - right or wrong, many won't.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:51 AM

There were shelters that allowed pets, and pet carriers were provided since many people didn't evacuate when Katrina hit because they'd didn't want to leave their pets behind.

Article in USA Today

I don't know if people won't evacuate next time. It could happen. I believe if Nagin had waited until they were SURE Gustav would cram NOLA before issuing the order, it would have been too late to get people out. It was a tough call and I respect him for making it.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: SINSULL
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 10:54 AM

Agreed, Jeri. It was a tough call and he made the right one. Certainly NOLA had a plan and carried it through.

I still can't understand why the levies, three years after Katrina, are "iffy". And if it is not safe, why allow people to live there?

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 02 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM

People can live where they want. Why are the levees allowed to be "iffy"?

Surely some part of an answer might be the Ankh-Moropork system of filling in and building up. It might get some of the town back above sea level.

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 04:51 AM

thanks for the link, Jeri

sandra

Subject: RE: BS: Gustav
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Sep 08 - 08:46 AM

Heard on the news this AM that it will be 2011 or 12 before NOLA's levees are able to withstand a hundred years storm. Hold your breath, New Orleans.