BS: UK General election December 12 2019

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 07:58 PM

I know you're ignoring me and that's okay, Steve. It's a tactic like any other, sorta like no fairness in politics. I'm just taking a moment to point it out. There are some arguments and opinions you are not ready to respond to. Or too condescending to acknowledge.

Iain. Your post confirmed my opinion. You're getting your own back. As Homer Simpson said to Montgomery Burns, "The classy thing would be not to draw attention to it!"

So I guess neither of us are that classy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 10:09 PM

Iains is indulging in the classic tory victory dance
of continuing to kick their opponent lifeless
after they sucker punched him down to the ground...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:02 AM

A different view from George Monbiot here, talking about the way to change our broken ‘top-down’ system of politics.

‘Political Re-wilding’. Sounds good to me.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:29 AM

Worzel's winning words. REAL CHANGE (He got that all right!)


https://labour.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/11/Real-Change-Labour-Manifesto-2019.pdf
Labour's death warrant in 107 pages

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 18 Dec 19 - 05:51 PM .............................?

The prosecco kid strikes again.
The tabloids have ensured that his legacy is tarnished

I suggest you read the CV of the marxist loon, when you sober up.   His own actions condemn him. But continue self denial, it supports the valiant brexiteers.

Now for a little cheer me up posting from the gruniard:
Hidden away on page 48 of the Conservative manifesto is this: “After Brexit we also need to look at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the government, parliament and the courts”.
Never again will a rabble dictate to parliament. All the leading lights of this movement have been thoroughly rejected by the electorate, and the poison dwarf who enabled them cast from his throne.
Even bliar blair admitted compo was poison. Let us hope chew on lemons thornberry is made leader. That will guarantee another 40 years in the wilderness for labour.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:33 AM

Iains:

You need to get out of your shell. Tell people what you really think! Possibly an assertiveness training class, although if you are on the right side of the pond you might have other words for it.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:51 AM

No one is calling you racist for voting leave, Al. They are calling you racist because you say East Europeans are criminals and immigrants are scroungers. A fact you seem to be trying to avoid but don't worry, I have the two statements copied. Here they are again

People in my home county Lincolnshire are very. upset at the influx of Eastern Europeans, and the lawlessness they have bought to towns like Boston

then along comes the free movement of European citizens. they all want council houses, free education, free health care.

Rest assured that I will remind you of them every time you play the innocent.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 04:36 AM

So can we narrow that down to which European countries
don't have council houses, free education, free health care...???

..and which even better European countries we should envy and want to move to,
if we could...???

Then once that's established, determine why some Europeans have been given the impression
that ours is such a marvelous utopia to want to live in...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:36 AM

Hidden away on page 48 of the Conservative manifesto is this: “After Brexit we also need to look at the broader aspects of our constitution: the relationship between the government, parliament and the courts”.
Never again will a rabble dictate to parliament.

Nigel and I had a discussion on this quite a few days ago now in one of the two Brexit threads. I find it odd you seem to have just found out about it.

You seem to be on my side of the argument, which is that amendments to 'the broader aspects' will aim to reduce the ability of the courts or Parliament restricting what the Government chooses to do.

Nigel did not agree it meant that.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 07:56 AM

Anyone recall hearing about this bad news in the lead up to the General Election?

Me neither.

Mind you, the Tories would have just claimed it’s the fault of the last Labour government which lost power ten years ago...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:19 AM

Worst figures ever: A&E waiting times, only 75% of patients seen within four hours. The target is 95%.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:20 AM

Iains - the lefties get worse, I wallow in their defeat!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:28 AM

Bonz - does private medical insurance provide emergency cover
for older folks falling and breaking a hip..
or would they still need NHS A&E...???

Take care this winter...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:35 AM

@DMcG. Government leads the agenda, government leads the house. Parliament is there to dispute, refute,or pass legislation. The Lords is there to review legislation with a fine tooth comb. They may propose amendments, not prevent legislation.
There is an old maxim no taxation without representation. Turn this around and you come up with the idea that only an accountable body can inflict legislation on the house and subsequently on the electorate, not an un-elected rabble. The courts have no role in parliament, that is the role of parliamentarians.
Had the corrosive speaker not enabled, and had the PM retained the remit to call an election this circus of the last few months would never have happened.
The electorate voted out in the referendum.b Certain   MPs thought to frustrate the will of the people. The people are sovereign-not parliament. Those that disputed this concept are now cast to the four winds. Rightly so.
Next the meddling Courts need to be put firmly back in their place and prevented from playing politics ever again. This would be best achieved by dismantling blairs supreme court and revering to past practise.
It is not a question of the courts or parliament restricting the government of the day, it is a clear question of preventing either body ever subverting the government again. If Parliament disagrees with the government they can topple it if powerful enough. The ballot box within parliament or the ballot box of the electorate has alays resolved these questions in the past.
No one should ever try to ride roughshod over the people, or try ti frustrate a government carrying out the wishes of the people.
This election has writ this principle in letters large.
The arrogance that was Soubry,Anna Soubry, David Gauke, Dominic Grieve not onlt were booted out by the PM but infinitely more satisfying booted out by the electorate.
The only lesson to take away from this is that the people will not be denied.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:36 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:19 AM
Worst figures ever: A&E waiting times, only 75% of patients seen within four hours. The target is 95%.

Any source for that claim? Or is it just more opinion paraded as fact?

Even the BBC says: Worst ever month for A&E
Overall just 81.4% of A&E patients were seen within four hours last month - that is the worst performance since the target was introduced in 2004.
And if 81.4% is the worst since the target was introduced in 2004 then your figure of 75% seems rather dubious!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 09:02 AM

Naturally we disagree, Iains. Mature democracies rely on separation of powers. The more centralised the power in one individual, or that individual and his appointees, the nearer you get to some form of totalitarianism. It is the legitimate role of the courts to ensure the Government acts in a way that is lawful. It is the legitimate role of Parliament to insist it has enough time to properly scrutinise laws proposed by the Government.

Having a very large majority makes the Government better able to ensure Parliament goes along with its wishes, and indeed to introduce legislation to change the balance between its component parts. This large majority happens every so often in our voting system - it did for Blair and Thatcher, for example, so it is not unique to Johnson. What is unique, to the best of my knowledge, is that both Blair and Thatcher were very clear what they intended to do with such a majority if they got one. Johnson's pitch was notable for rarely looking beyond the end of Jan 2020. So until the Queens Speech was read today, we had little information of what he intended. I haven't had a chance to study in detail, but what I have read of it (after Jan) is mainly symbolism: there is no need to have a legal obligation to spend a certain amount on the NHS, for example: you can just spend it. That move is about sending messages, not actually doing something as such. Similarly the moves on detention for terrorists - certainly welcomed by some, but just how many people does the legislation actually affect? Not many. So again more symbolic than effective.


But to get back to the courts etc. It is always worth asking the question what happens if the roles are reversed. Suppose someday - a decade or more away if you like - a hard left government gets into power. Are you really happy that it stuffs the supreme court (or its replacement) with hard-left judges? Or do you think they need to be more independent than that?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 09:15 AM

"........... only an accountable body can inflict legislation on the house and subsequently on the electorate, not an un-elected rabble"

"The people are sovereign-not parliament"

Anyone like to square this circle.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 10:20 AM

An accountable body is an elected body. An elected body only exists by permission of the electorate with a mandate renewed at regular intervals. No circle to be square just a basic understanding of how your democracy works. But socialists ignore such distinctions. After all how can you have democracy with Totalitarianism?

Are you really happy that it stuffs the supreme court (or its replacement) with hard-left judges? Or do you think they need to be more independent than that?
I have already said I would prefer the supreme court be dismantled and the Lord Chancellor revert to his previous role.
Politics has no place in the Judiciary.
The recent machinations of the supreme court were entirely political and trying to deny the democratic vote to leave the EU. No other argument can demonstrate otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 10:29 AM

Before the supreme court was established the Law Lords performed a similar purpose. I think there were 12 of them, but I could be wrong. It was not the Lord Chancellor. And it is the Government suggesting there needs to be political involvement in appointments to the Supreme Court (or, presumably, whatever might replace it.)

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 10:32 AM

It is worth reminding ourselves that in the US appointments to the Supreme Court are highly political, the UK Government could go down a similar route if it wished.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 12:10 PM

"But socialists ignore such distinctions. After all how can you have democracy with Totalitarianism?"

I just think the right's obsession with 'commie socialist totalitarianism' is just extreme nutcase paranoia
if they actually believe the shite they are constantly regurgitating to demonise anyone slightly left of centre...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 12:16 PM

the UK Government could go down a similar route if it wished.

The impartiality of the Judiciary has not really been questioned until the antics of Gina Millar and the judgement of the blair construct of the supreme court. That is why I would prefer to revert to what was before. Had the PM retained the ability to go to the polls when he/she wished the circus of recent months would have been avoided.
The electorate held parliament accountable to their promise to deliver brexit. It was only because parliament thought itself above the people, and acted in defiance of them, that this sorry saga resulted.
As was clearly demonstrated the people have sovereignty. As will our country very shortly.
We, the people, took back control. It has a nice ring to it does it not? It is anathema to socialists and that makes it even sweeter.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 01:50 PM

“We, the people, took back control”

...and handed total control to the party of the immensely wealthy, powerful elite.

There’s an old aphorism which ‘You, the people’ would do very well to keep in mind - “Act in haste, repent at leisure’.

I have a very strong suspicion that many of the crowers and gloaters currently having a good time here, on social media, and elsewhere might, in the fullness of time, rue the day they decided that ‘taking back control’ by giving their votes to a party headed by a proven habitual liar, philanderer, friend of multi-billionaire tax-dodgers, and coward was in their interests.

I hope I’m wrong. I fear I’ll be proved right.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:08 PM

If we the people, having taken back control, dislike the actions of a political party we remove them via the ballot box. Ask Wurzel the goon, he has first hand experience.
We have no need to crow, we have merely to point out the salient facts:!
Democracy restored!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:16 PM

As well as the usual insane who believe they are Napoleon and Christ,
asylums may soon need to open up a new ward for the most deluded brexiteers...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Mossback
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:24 PM


“We, the people, took back control”

Excuse this from a Yank, but control of WHAT,precisely?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:29 PM

"but control of WHAT,precisely?"..


..their fantasies and delusions...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:41 PM

”We have no need to crow”

So why have you crowed so much since 13/12/19, not to mention gloated? There’s only one thing more disgusting and nauseating than a bad loser, and that’s a bad winner.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:48 PM

Well control of our money for a start. No more bloody patronising grants to build a sculpture or a mechanical clock with figures in towns like Sutton in Asfield were they need jobs since the mines and the mining engineering and hosiery industries went west.

But control of many other things.

You're not going to agree with me, but this attitude that all these people are deluded fantasists is what lost Corbyn so many seats.

Its a delusion that started forty years ago and seems very real to those of us who have been paying attention.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:57 PM

"There’s only one thing more disgusting and nauseating than a bad loser, and that’s a bad winner.

And the WORST winner is the more disgusting and nauseating Boris than than bad loser Farage. ?

You guys are funny

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 02:59 PM

Al I didn't accuse all brexiteers..

just the most nasty and hostile minority of fanatics..

[however large that minority is..]


Who won't let ordinary reasonable remainers and brexiteers try to patch up differences
and become friends again...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:09 PM

Well I was paying attention Al, and I was working in the mining and mining engineering industries which you bewail and bemoan the loss of. And I’m telling you, they weren’t destroyed by the EC (as it was then), they were destroyed by a clash of political ideologies in the UK in the case of the mines, and by underinvestment and shitty industrial relations in the case of the mining engineering industry.

You know, you keep on playing the victim, pissing and moaning about being ‘patronised’ and ‘insulted’ by those who disagree with you, but how patronising and insulting do you think you are when you constantly claim that you are the only one who lived and worked through the collapse of our major industrial base and you were the only one who ‘paid attention’?

Give your head a wobble and take a good look at yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:46 PM

"So why have you crowed so much since 13/12/19, not to mention gloated?"

Well if the fanatic fantasists of the hard left had accepted the referendum results and not attempted a parliamentary coup,I might feel a little more forgiving.


But..... Revenge is a dish best served cold

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 03:57 PM

Well you’re notorious here for your 180-deg reversals and self-contradictions, so I shouldn’t be surprised, but going from “We don’t need to crow” to “Revenge is a dish best served cold” in a single move beats them all.

Get help before it’s too late.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 04:11 PM

"Well if the fanatic fantasists of the hard left had accepted the referendum results and not attempted a parliamentary coup"

Iains - errmmm... don't you mean the Liberals...
who are a pain in the arse for both left and right...

and a fair few Tory wets as well who caused there share of delays for brexit..


But of cause, anyone slightly left of Lord Snooty of ye olde Somersetshire
is a raving lefty as far as you are concerned...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:16 PM

The only reason he keeps crowing is to wind you up. You know the drill, John. I know you will keep feeding him PFR and you have your reasons but maybe you can give the rest of us a break?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:46 PM

DtG - life is shit and I need a laugh...
and a pantomime tory is as good a distraction as anything...

.. this is BS after all.. not a safe space...
Let's leave cancelling and shouting down to the immature young folks...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 05:59 PM

"Control of our money..."

Do you actually know how much of our money is tied up with the EU, Al? Well, it's approximately one percent of our GDP. That's it. Yes we are net contributors, as we are one of the larger and wealthier members. But our poorer regions (Cornwall, where I live, for example) and our farmers, who benefit from large subsidies, get some of that money back. Once we leave, the farmers will no longer get that money and the country will be in danger of turning into a huge country park. The poorer regions will no longer get those grants. The benefit of being a net contributor is that it smooths the path for easy trade deals with EU countries via the goodwill that will now be lost, and we contribute to the stability and the maintenance of democracy in those countries, a massive benefit over half a century of the common market/ EC/EU. You've swallowed the Tory brexit bullshit hook, line and sinker, Al. And you'll realise it sooner rather than later.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 06:03 PM

He's no pantomime Tory, pfr. He's proto-BNP and he's a far-right plant. Know thine enemy.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 06:19 PM

Steve - yes.. obviously...!!!

.. 'he' [or 'they'] is probably that and more besides...
All the more to take the piss out of...

How would Britain have coped with the war if our grandparents didn't have a lively sense of humour
cruelly mocking h1tler and the n@zis...???

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 06:22 PM

You do have a point. But he's poison. That's the trouble.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 06:36 PM

Steve - fer instance..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZlFBSRrSR0

When I was just a nipper, that's one of my dad's 78s that made me the man I am now...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:20 PM

A link to the New Yorker article on the vote. Based on a phone conversation with 'David Runciman, a professor of politics at Cambridge University.' It puts a lot of responsibility for Boris' win on you guessed it, Mr. Corbyn. He's getting the same standing for the current situation as Ms. Clinton has for the current occupant.

If you try the link and it's a paywall problem, let me know and I'll include some summaries.

Right this minute there's a live debate on PBS with only seven Democratic candidates and they are doing a good job of discussing issues and standings. Any one of them would be a good alternative to the current occupant.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:42 PM

Maybe you had to be here, robo.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 08:00 AM

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 19 Dec 19 - 08:19 AM
Worst figures ever: A&E waiting times, only 75% of patients seen within four hours. The target is 95%.

Any source for that claim? Or is it just more opinion paraded as fact?

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: DMcG
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 08:05 AM

Off topic, but following from an earlier post: one of my favourite WW2 songs is The Deepest Shelter in Town. "White Cliffs of Dover" it is not. And perhaps it did make some the men who they are...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Donuel
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 08:35 AM

Yes it is trajic but it is going to happen
https://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2019/12/19/amanpour-tony-blair-brexit-uk-election.cnn

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 09:55 AM

Boris passes his Brexit bill by a resounding majority in the house.
He is getting Brexit done, as promised.

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 10:18 AM

DMcG - enjoyed that song.. I don't think I've heard it before..

she patriotically did her bit to help the war effort...

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: Iains
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 12:14 PM

Boris is said to be reviewing the Treason Act. It needs it.
Longstanding Leave campaigner David Campbell Bannerman, who is also a former UKip deputy leader, made his comment in a Tweet which reflects growing public anger at the way some leading Remainers have taken the side of Brussels in the Brexit negotiations.

Mr Campbell Bannerman Tweeted: “It is about time we brought the Treason Act up to date and made it apply to those seeking to destroy or undermine the British state.

“That means extreme jihadis. It also means those in future actively working undemocratically against UK through extreme EU loyalty.”

There is quite a long list of those allegedly conspiring with the EU to frustrate Brexit.
Trying them all for treason seems a good idea to me.
Reasserting sovereignty and taking back control, and a whole rake of prisoners in the tower into the bargain. Stirring times!

Subject: RE: BS: UK General election December 12 2019
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 20 Dec 19 - 12:53 PM

Will patriotic flag tattoos be optional or compulsory...???