BS: The British who fought for Hitler

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jul 06 - 02:56 PM

Guest Bob,were any of those in the photos under age !

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:00 AM

Just a side note:   After the war the invasion of England (Operation Sealion) was played out as a war game by senior military members of both sides. The Germans (Adolf Galland Luftwaffe fighter ace, was one of the Germans who participated) they all admitted that the invasion would not have succeeded with the type of troop barges and boat transport they planned to use to transport across the channel. After an initial victory on the beaches their supplies would have never been landed in enough quantity to support a main force for more than two or three weeks; even if they captured the ports of Dover, Folkestone or Shoreham they would not have been in usable condition to large shipping for months. The German Airforce could not supply enough heavy equipment and munitions to support the airborn landings, and the whole thing would have failed before reaching London. There is a book on the subject it makes interesting reading.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 10:12 AM

Sounds quite plausible to me, Dave. A more effective line of attack for the Germans to mount would probably have been this one:

1. Continue to prepare and threaten an imminent invasion on England to tie down British forces...but don't make it.

2. Go all out in the Mediterranean instead. Invade and take Malta. Leave Russia alone. Win in North Africa. Persuade Spain to join the cause and take Gibraltar. If Spain will not join willingly, then blitzkrieg them right quick from southern France and take Gibraltar anyway...I figure it would have been a 3 to 5 week campaign to do that. Seal off the Med. Advance on Egypt, and thence into the Middle East. Seal off the Suez Canal. Take the oil-producing areas then and shut the British out of the Med entirely. This all could have been done, and it would have avoided Hitler's key error in the war: attacking Russia.

3. Then work toward a negotiated settlement with the UK, which probably would have been achieved eventually, and wrap the whole thing up for awhile.

The above approach would have been both workable and reasonable...but, of course, Hitler was not a very reasonable man! ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,ancient Briton
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:28 PM

just one thing, LtHawk - there was no guarantee that Stalin would not have pushed westwards whilst Adolf's lads (no doubt helped by half a dozen brits) were doing the business in the Med. The Nazi-Commie war was inevitable.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 01:30 PM

HMS Penelope was in Malta, they would have had a tough time there too. The Maltese were good shots, and my dad was a tough old bastard mate ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:17 PM

Malta wouldn't have been easy, but I'm pretty sure they could have taken it in early '41 with a full effort. It's very close to Italy, and the Italian navy's major base at Taranto. To stage a heavy invasion attack with strong air support would have been very feasible for the Germans and Italians. For the British to defend adequately would have been very difficult.

Anceint Briton - I agree that the Russo-German conflict was inevitable...in time. As inevitable as the Cold War that came after '45. However, it was not inevitable in '41-42. Far from it. Stalin did everything possible to avoid war with the Germans. He desperately wanted to avoid such a war. He happily supplied them with everything they wanted in trade, and worked hard to avoid provoking them.

Therefore, I higly doubt that the Russians would have pushed west while the Germans were occupied in the Med. 1941 would have been the crucial year...and the Germans would only have needed about one third of their available forces to take the Med...in my opinion. Another third could have been used to tie down the British in western Europe (by still threatening an invasion of the UK). The remaining third could definitely have secured the Reich's eastern borders against an attack by the Russian army which was at that point inefficient, mostly inexperienced, and poorly commanded (all of which was amply demonstrated in the initial German attacks on Russia in June-November '41). The Russians would have been clobbered had they tried to attack the Reich in '41, and I think the chances of Stalin wanting to risk it at all would have been virtually nil. Stalin was a cautious man when it came to such adventures, and the Russian attack on tiny Finland not long before had been a bloody and embarrassing disaster where the Russians lost probably ten men for every Finn they killed. You think he would have risked attacking the whole German Reich after that? Not bloody likely.

As for Hitler, it was asinine to get into a 2-front war against 2 major powers, which is what Hitler did when he attacked Russia in '41. It was the most idiotic decision in the whole war, I'd say. The time to attack Russia was much later....AFTER the west and the Med had been secured, and the war with the UK brought to an end. The way to secure the west was to put the British in such a bad position that they would wish to negotiate their way out of it. The way to do that was: take the Med and hold it. This would have put the British under a tremendous strain, Churchill would probably have been voted out, and a new government would have bargained with the Germans and reached a settlement, agreeing on their respective spheres of influence...which was what Hitler had actually anticipated would happen after the fall of France in 1940.

Hitler had always seen the British as his natural ally against Communist Russia. He was no doubt bolstered considerably in that notion by the friendship of a few upperclass Britons such as Unity Mitford, and by the fact that every government in the west in the late 30's (with the exception of the shortlived Republican government in Spain) was extremely anti-communist anyway prior to the beginning of WWII. Churchill, for that matter, was extremely anti-communist...UNTIL he needed them! ;-) Such are the vagaries of Realpolitik. Churchill quickly returned to being extremely anti-communist as soon as the Nazis were defeated. I believe it was he who coined the term "Iron Curtain", shortly after the war in Europe had ended. I think he hated the Russians just as much as Hitler did.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:29 PM

The British attack on Taranto was studied by the Japanese as a model for Pearl harbour. Swordfish biplanes were so slow, modern anti aircraft guns were not programmed to deal with 90 knot air speeds, so the Italians and Germans had a hard hitting them.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:41 PM

Actually the kind of anti-aircratft guns that would be firng at the Swordfish would be light guns of 20mm to 40mm. They don't have predictors.

One of the reasons for the success of that mission was that the Italians didn't rig their anti-toredo nets.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 02:47 PM

Yeah, the Bismark had trouble targetting the Swordfish torpedo planes for the same reason. Too damn slow! Focke-Wulf fighter planes that were attacking these same Swordfish during the famed "Channel Dash" by Scharnhorst and Gneisenau actually lowered their flaps AND landing gear in flight to try to slow down enough to make accurate firing runs on the clunky British biplanes.

It's funny how using obsolete equipment can occasionally become an advantage of sorts in a war situation.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 03:57 PM

Les, The air defense of Taranto was mostly shore based, and they had predictors for each group of lighter AA guns. The lighter ones set to be directed in teams of four or six guns. Both the italians and Germans were experimenting with directed patterns to boxed area saturation.

Here are the actual statistics Antiaircraft defenses fully active and including: 21 batteries armed with 101 mm guns, 68 machine-gun installations for a total of 84 barrels both on fixed and floating positions 109 light machine-guns both in fixed and floating positions.

Antiaircraft obstructions consisting of 27 round balloons, 16 moored west and north of the ships on the Tarantola jetty. 11 moored along the eastern part of the same jetty.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

All six swordfish were shot down in the channel dash though, without scoring a hit. Only 5 of the 18 crew survived.
They all saw it as a suicide mission.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:29 PM

Indeed. It was a suicide mission to all intents and purposes. The Germans provided very thorough air cover for those ships, and the swordfish should never have been sent against them at all.

The Italians were rather unlucky at Taranto, and the British airmen were clearly very well trained and did their job superbly. It ended up causing no little grief to the Americans when the Japanese used it as their inspiration for the Pearl Harbour torpedo attack.

The Bismark was also unlucky...but then, so was the Hood!

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM

Herr Bob. Sieg Heil Siezer Bush, you really ought to get out more and read the news.

Not too many years since I read the Orange Order hired a Scottish Butcher to dismember a Catholic WOMAN they had executed by crusifying her on a wooden door.

The Nazis couldv'e taken lessons from such monstrous bastards!

Long live freedom, free speech and the free people of the world, which means you scum are fair game any day ...now.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 04:55 PM

They should not have been sent. And no one was prepared to order them to go to certain death. Esmonde was "asked" how he felt about going in.
Gleave, the Wing Commander, said that when he wished Esmonde luck,
"Although his mouth twitched automatically into the semblance of a grin and his arm lifted in a vague salute, he barely recognised me. He knew what he was going into. But it was his duty. His face was tense and white. It was the face of a man already dead. It shocked me as nothing has done since"

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:16 PM

Thanks for the detail about Taranto Dave. I've really only heard it from the British side, who reported inaccurate flak. For all the guns they didn't hit much!

On the Channel Dash attack the Swordfish were supposed to be escorted by Spitfires but they missed each other. The Swordfish decided to go it alone.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Jul 06 - 05:42 PM

A sad, sad story, about Esmond, Keith. These are the miserable things that happen to people in wartime.

Most of the German sailors on the Scharnhorst died miserably too, much later in the war, when their ship was surrounded, battered into a wreck, and sunk in the freezing Arctic waters at the Battle of the North Cape. Very few of them were rescued.

It's a rotten business all the way around.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 12:48 PM

Rather odd, if the Axis powers could not successfully invade across 21 miles of water in 1940, why is it thought they could have easily invaded an island with very few suitable landing places across 62.5 miles.

When Italy entered the war on 10th June 1940, Winston Churchill wrote to Lt. General Sir William Dobbie, Officer Administering the Government:

" You may be sure we regard Malta as one of the master keys of the British Empire. We are sure that you are the man to hold it and we will do everyhting in human power to give you that means."

This was done at horrendous cost in terms of ships, aircraft and men - but it was done successfully enough to convince the Axis powers that Malta would cost too much to take.

With the Afika Korps on the border of Egypt, Erwin Rommel was well aware of the importance of Malta and the threat posed by it remaining in Allied hands. Hitler did order the invasion and capture of the Island on the 30th April 1942 during a meeting at the Obersalzberg with Mussolini. The priorities were given as follows, "Tobruk in June, Malta in July". Hitler really should have put them the other way about because it left Malta a threat to Rommel's supply lines and gave the defenders of the island enough of a breathing space to re-equip and go over onto the offensive. Thereafter the fate of the Africa Korps was sealed.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 01:25 PM

You're quite right, Teribus, Hitler should have put those priorities the other way around. He should also have gotten the idea to invade Malta a whole lot sooner than he did. Time is always of the essence in such matters.

The Germans did succeed in taking the island of Crete...a similar proposition to taking Malta...and across a similar stretch of water...but it was a much bigger island than Malta. It cost their paratroopers dearly, but they took it. I believe they could also have taken Malta, with a combination of paratroops and seaborne assault, but specially the seaborne assault. They just had to do it soon enough, and with sufficient resolve, that's all.

It was foolish (or at least impractical) of them to attempt to successfully conclude a North African campaign without taking Malta...although...Rommel came close to pulling it off, even as it was.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 03:57 PM

While we're on the subject of who died for what and who supported what, I read in an earlier thread in this forum that de Valera, PM for Ireland during WWII, sent condolences to the German Government over the death of Hitler.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM

That is correct robomatic he did. He also gave Churchill permission to fly the Sunderland bombers based on Lough Erne in County Fermanagh to fly across County Donegal in the Irish Republic to attack the u boats in the Atlantic. If he had not been given permission the Sunderlands would have had to fly north and then left which would not have allowed them to be in the air long enough to search. When Hilter bombed Belfast twice in the early years of the war, it was Dev that rang the then P.M. in the north, Mr. J.M. Andrews and offered fire engines, they arrived all through the night from the Republic. Much has been said about Churchill offering Dev the north in 1939 if he came on board in the fight against Hilter. I am sure there must be something about it on the net, hearsay on my behalf.So it's funny the points people care to remember.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 04:47 PM

In April 1995 Taoiseach John Bruton spoke at Islandbridge and paid tribute to the 150,000 Irish people North and South who "volunteered to fight against Nazi tyranny in Europe, at least 10,000 of whom were killed while serving in British uniforms…In recalling their bravery, we are recalling a shared experience of Irish and British people…We remember a British part of the inheritance of all who live in Ireland."


Bruton's speech was interesting because of its implication that there is more to the issue of the volunteers than simply assimilating their role as an aspect of neutral Ireland's contribution to the allied cause. His words were uttered in the context of the unfolding peace process in Ulster, and in front of representatives from Northern and Southern Irish political parties. His allusion to a shared Irish and British experience and to the British inheritance were an obvious gesture in the direction of a concept of Irish identity or identities incorporating a plurality of loyalties, experiences and traditions.


From being a marginal and excluded group in Irish society in the 1940s the Irish volunteers of World War II had by the 1990s come to represent historically and symbolically an aspect of a refashioned and broader concept of Irish identity. There is a certain poetic justice in all this since the most frequently reported volunteer experience of loyal service in the British armed forces was that it made them feel more Irish and more patriotic. Notwithstanding this strengthening of their Irish identity most volunteers did not feel very welcome when they returned to postwar Ireland, nor for many more years to come.

I believe these statistics do not include the many thousands of Irish nationals who served as non military Merchant Seamen on allied ships, and are not included in the role of honour. Lest We Forget.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 05:05 PM

The 26th Battalion of the IRA were called up and armed in 1939 to guard the streets of Dublin. They were men who fought in the rising of 1916. If you search the new you will find them. I have a medal to them. At this time Dev was also jailing the IRA ! Hitler also bombed Dublin.
Last year in Donegal Sinn Fein were involved in the unvailing of the memorial to the Irish 10th Division who fought in WW1.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 05:15 PM

Dave, isn't your post a quote?

Ir reads very like something the Irish Times would publish.

Anyway not drifting too far away from the point of the thread, and mentioning the ROI - where BTW you could NOT be conscripted to serve in HM forces against the Axis - I recall mention in the 1950's of gentlemen from the North who had absconded to the Republic for the duration of the ...err hostilities, and of note were those in the majority, Orangemen, who preferred the Church Of Ireland's hospitality as opposed to the rough reception offered by the Civil Defence. Now that is a story well worth the telling, ...these days.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 05:29 PM

The Challenge Of The Irish Volunteers of World War II

Geoffrey Roberts

Sorry i was in a hurry and forgot to edit the post...

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 05:51 PM

The Orange Order cancelled all of their public events from 1941 to 1945 including the 12th July demo's. They said it was because the did not want to bring so many onto the streets in case the bombers came over !

Could have had something to do with the fact many asked questions why so many of them had not joined up as they paraded in their thousands in 1940 !

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jul 06 - 06:41 PM

my grandad was approached by germans in the war in south africa where he was stationed to ask him to cross over. He was a member of the BUF, so it just shows what intelligance was around at that time by the germans. He of course refused and was eventually killed in the war fighting the germans.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 02:50 AM

True enough LH the Germans did take the island of Crete, primarily by Airborne Forces, they were very lucky, the Allied Command remained convinced that this attack was a feint and did not counter it effectively enough. Axis had air superiority, with the Royal Navy managing to retain control of the waters around Crete for sufficient time to effect the evacuation, at great cost to the fleet. With regard to Malta, Axis naval power was never strong enough, nor determined enough, to carry out the operations required to take the island.

On Crete, German losses were such that, on Hitlers orders, operations of this type were never to be repeated or proposed again. On losses, when Admiral Andrew Cunningham was receiving the loss reports from his Fleet and for pleas to withdraw his ships from the evacuation of the allied troops from Crete, he sent the following signal:

"It takes the Navy three years to build a new ship. It will take three hundred to build a new tradition. The evacuation will continue."

Like Nelson, Cunningham was well known for sending signals. The signal that Cunningham was most well known for was his signal to the Admiralty on the 8th of May 1943:

"Be pleased to inform their Lordships that the Italian Fleet lies at anchor under the guns of the Fortress of Malta."

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,ancient Briton
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 03:49 AM

Little Hawk:

My father served in the Royal Navy in WW2 on LSTs (the 3,00 tonne tank landing ships). He was present at all the major opposed landings in Africa, the Med and NW Europe, and at many smaller affairs that were never reported. He never talked about his experiences until late in life. The bits he told me suggest that seaborne landings are never ever a pushover and are far bloodier, more expensive and messier affairs than any of the news/propaganda, current or historical, would have us believe.

The first landings were completely chaotic and even by the end of the war with loads of experience, better support and a weakened enemy, there was a very high attrition rate in men and ships.

Dad served on a relatively modern (for its day) american-built ship with at least a token level of escort and air cover at the big landings, though usually not at the smaller ones. Although built in america the defensive armament was to Admiralty spec, consisting of an ancient 1914 Canadian Pacific 4" gun and about 4 small anti aircraft guns. They regularly got hammered on the beaches and on their way there and back. Forget the opposing artillery air forces and naval units, the passive beach defences (which could never be cleared effectively) probably did most damage. Beaching was very like the charge of the light brigade, going at full ahead toward hurdles of obstacles and mines, watching sister ships blow up alongside in the race to the beach, whilst the proper warships sat safely out to sea (as they must) bombarding farms and cattle and the occsional enemy. Dad (and the ship) were very lucky to survive the war.

With this in mind I can't believe that the Germans could have pulled off a successful seaborne invasion of Malta in 1941 with the levels of equipment, training and protection they then enjoyed.   

I never entirely believe what military historians tell us.

AB

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Large Taws
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 06:13 AM

The Curragh is a 5,000 acre open plain, 35 miles from Dublin, just east of Kildare town. During the Napoleonic wars in 1854 a military camp for training soldiers was established here. To this day, the Curragh is the headquarters of the Irish Army.

During World War two the Curragh military base was used as an internee prisoners camp. Between the summer of 1940 and the latter half of 1943 there were about forty RAF internees and about sixty members of the German Luftwaffe. The RAF men were British, Canadians, Poles, Free French and an American who had enlisted in the volunteer force attached to the RAF known as the Eagle Squadron. In the early 1940s there were also dozens of IRA men interned in the Curragh. So here we have Irish army soldiers guarding a very diverse group of prisoners - strange bedfellows indeed! They were all held in their own separate compounds.

With the sanctuary of Northern Ireland so close it was easier for the Allies to escape than the Germans. The latter forces made only one known escape bid which took place in February 1942. Nine of them managed to confuse the guards into letting them out when only eight of them had signed their parole form. One man made his way to Dublin and succeeded in boarding a ship bound for Portugal. Obviously German luck bore no comparison with the proverbial luck of the Irish, the ship made an unscheduled stop in Wales and the German was arrested and imprisoned. Surely a case of jumping from the frying pan into the fire!!

The prisoners were allowed to leave the camp each morning, on condition that they signed the form promising to return that evening!! This parole applied equally to RAF and Luftwaffe and IRA internees alike.

Nowhere else in World War Two did opposing sides find themselves "prisoners of war" together.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 09:49 AM

Well, guys, you may be quite right about Malta. We'll never know for sure, will we? I think that with a full effort the Germans and Italians could have established air superiority over Malta. Once that had been achieved, they could probably have managed the rest. But it's all just speculation at this point.

If I'd been commanding the German forces, I would have moved heaven and Earth to take Malta, and I would have started doing so in 1940, not in '41. And I would NOT have attacked Soviet Russia at all. I would have continued peacefully trading with the Soviets until the conflict in the West had been brought to an armistace between England and Germany...however long that took.

Hitler was emotionally committed to attacking Russia. That was his downfall, militarily speaking. His downfall politically speaking was his paranoid and hateful attitude toward just about everyone except "Aryans" (as he called them). Take a politically insane concept, wed it to a militarily very powerful and efficient nation, and you have an utter disaster on your hands.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Les from Hull
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:13 AM

'Take a politically insane concept, wed it to a militarily very powerful and efficient nation, and you have an utter disaster on your hands.'

I wonder who we could apply that to today.

On the Malta thing, air superiority is only useful as a first step in gaining command of the sea, as proved by Admiral Cunningham in the Crete campaign.

(A small anecdote about Admiral Cunningham. After the war he was was Chairman of the Planning Committee on a Local Council (South West England), and the Clerk to the Council had the annoying habit of saying 'Yes Admiral', 'No Admiral' to Cunningham, who then said 'I don't use my service rank in civilian life, but if you must it's Admiral of the fucking Fleet!'

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 10:40 AM

Yeah, Les! (grin) I wonder who......?

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 07 Jul 06 - 01:07 PM

He also spent time studying the Italian fleet and noted that they rarely spent any time exercising at night. He timed his attacks at early evening or before dawn and won victories over numerically superior forces. Fine man, Fine Naval Officer.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:56 AM

"If I'd been commanding the German forces, I would have moved heaven and Earth to take Malta, and I would have started doing so in 1940, not in '41. And I would NOT have attacked Soviet Russia at all. I would have continued peacefully trading with the Soviets until the conflict in the West had been brought to an armistace between England and Germany...however long that took."

Not an option, Little Hawk,in 1940 the German Army had far more important and immediately pressing things to concentrate on. The Axis at this time deemed the Mediterranean to be an Italian theatre of operations. The Germans did not put in an appearance there until after the Italians had been routed in North Africa and needed to be rescued in Greece, which takes you to the summer of 1941 as the earliest you could have acted, and even then you would not have had the naval strength to do anything. Mussolini's Navy was considered to have served its purpose purely by existing, "a Fleet in being", a presence that required a great deal in terms of ships and manpower to counter the threat it posed. While it existed it tied down allied resources that could have been used far more effectively elsewhere, the same was true of the capital ships of the German Fleet.

To anyone who had read "Mein Kampf" at the time, war between Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia was inevitable. In 1936, Hitler was told that if he was going to attack Soviet Russia he had to do so BEFORE 1944 in order to have any chance of success. Hitler never believed that he would have to fight in the west, so firm was his belief in the power and attraction offered by the appeasement lobby. Staff's cover all contingencies, Hitler was told that if he had to fight in the West that had to done BY 1938 at the latest to have any chance of avoiding having to fight on two fronts.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: HuwG
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:00 AM

Admiral Cunningham was also known for some of the most memorably terse signals in RN history. After the successful attack by Swordfish torpedo bombers on the Italian fleet at Taranto, the commander of the carrier group signalled:

"Operation Judgement executed"

A few hours later, after seeing air reconnaissance photographs of Taranto which showed three battleships sunk at their moorings, Cunningham signalled back:

"Manoevre well executed"

This latter signal was only a two-letter group in the standard signal book. In a war which was later to become too well known for verbose self-congratulatory speeches and messages, this was a classic.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:23 AM

My favourite (although maybe not attributed to Cunningham) was.

" Requirements on arrival Malta, Admiral woman"

when questioned. "Insert washer between admiral and woman"

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM

You're again quite correct, Teribus, Hitler's war with Russia was absolutely inevitable, given Hitler's peculiar personal philosophy, and you are also correct regarding the Med being considered (by the Germans) to be an Italian theatre of war until their defeat in North Africa and Greece.

Hitler clearly was not expecting a conflict in the West to erupt when he attacked Poland...and the whole rest of his misadventures stemmed from that decision, since it triggered an unexpected (from his point of view) declaration of war by both the UK and France. Major screwup for the Germans! (and for the Poles, needless to say...well, and for the French too, as it turned out...)

I'm simply saying that if I had been commanding German forces following that turn of events, and following the fall of France, I would have indefinitely shelved all ideas of fighting Russia, and would have concentrated on fighting the UK effectively...and that would have involved really 3 major efforts:

1. continually threaten to invade the UK to tie up the majority of their forces in a defensive posture (this was done for a while, but not for too long)
2. relentlessly attack merchant shipping supplying the UK (this was most definitely done)
3. Go all out to take the entire Med, North Africa, and the Middle East and spare no resource to do it. If not involved in a war with Russia, I believe the Axis could quite readily have accomplished this in 1941-42.

And LEAVE the Russians alone!

I'm saying that that's what I would have done, if faced with a major war in the West. I'm not saying Hitler would have ever done it.

I agree that with Hitler in charge of Germany there was no way that that would ever happen, because he was determined to attack Russia some time before 1944, as you say, regardless of what else was going on. He was a man who could always blithely ignore reality when it didn't suit his personal obsesssions...

And that's why he got into that foolish war to begin with and ended up dead in a bunker in Berlin.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 10:07 AM

Corporal Hitler made the same mistake as Corporal Napoleon ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 10:18 AM

Teribus, an armistice between England and Germany would have been impossible as England is not a nation state and has no powers to deal in this respect.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Ronald Healey
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 01:48 PM

Any information on HMS Bellona would be welcomed guys.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 02:22 PM

Bellona Class Light (Anti-Aircraft) Cruisers
Displacement: 5,950 tons standard ; 7,200 tons full load
Dimensions: 485 pp, 512 oa x 50.5 x 15 feet
Propulsion: 4 shaft Parsons geared turbines, 4 Admiralty 3-drum boilers, 62,000 shp. = 32 knots
Range: 1,500 miles at 30 knots, 4,240 at 16 knots ; 1,100 tons fuel oil
Complement: 530
Armament: 4 dual 5.25-inch / 50 QF Mk 1 DP ; 3 quad 2 pdr ; 6 dual 20 mm AA ; 2 triple 21-inch TT.
Armour: 3 inch belt ; 1 inch deck (2 inch over magazines) ; 1 inch bulkheads
aka Dido Group 2
Modified Dido design with only 4 turrets but improved AA armament.
HMS Bellona (C63)
Built by Fairfield, Govan. Laid Down 30 November 1939. Launched 29 September 1942. Completed 29 October 1943. Loaned to the Royal New Zealand Navy 1946-1956. Returned to RN April 1956. In reserve 1956-1957. Broken up by Ward, Briton Ferry, 1959.
Bellona was a modified Dido class cruiser named after a Goddess of War. Her motto was 'Battle is our Business'.

She participated in Murmansk convoys and played a role in supporting the US landings at Omaha Beach. She also had a role in electronic warfare during D Day radio jamming I believe.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: GUEST,Ronald Healey
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 04:59 PM

Thank you for taking the time to write this sir. I am very grateful.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 05:07 PM

You are welcome Sir, I cut and pasted the technical data from a website. According to the site the BBC mentioned her on a program recently, but the details were no longer available. You can get pictures of her if a relative served on her and you are interested here is the data site url:http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/bellona_class.htm
Just scroll down and she is the first photograph you come to.

Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Jul 06 - 06:38 PM

GUEST 08 Jul 06 - 10:18 AM

Your point is extremely well taken, but the point you make should be taken up with our Canadian cousin, Little Hawk, who stated that:

"I would NOT have attacked Soviet Russia at all. I would have continued peacefully trading with the Soviets until the conflict in the West had been brought to an armistace between England and Germany...however long that took."

As a Scot who regards himself as being British I have always been perfectly aware of the fact that since 1707 there has been NO England and NO Scotland in terms of international politics or history, I believe that Little Hawk actually acknowledges the same distinction.

Subject: RE: BS: The British who fought for Hitler
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 06 - 12:44 AM

I do indeed acknowledge it. ;-) Guest, I was using the word "England" only in the common colloquial sense, as one might in an informal conversation. What I meant in that context, clearly, was "the United Kingdom". If Teribus said "England" somewhere back there in a similar regard, I imagine that he too would have meant "the United Kingdom".

It is fairly common for people outside the UK to refer to ALL its inhabitants as "English", although technically they are not all English by any means.

One is best guided by context when interpreting such statements.