BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 05:43 PM

Anybody got the text of this supposed Obama statement- and in full, in context? Not manipulated & mutilat4ed to seem to mean something he never said? Or are we supposed to take Honest Douggie's word for it? & if so, why?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 05:46 PM

And Alice: he was plenty silly enopugh BEFORE he got scared.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 05:52 PM

Eliminating the unnecessary burdens in the Medicare Advantage program does not mean that Doug's quality of care would diminish. Care that is as good as but more EFFICIENT would replace the inefficiencies of Medicare Advantage.

see this link: click here


"In this formal letter to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS), the Medical Group Management Association maintains that the variations in the Medicare Advantage program subject medical practices to extraneous administrative burdens, already an immense burden to efficient patient care. MGMA urges CMS to eliminate unnecessary administrative burdens, exacerbated by Medicare Advantage, which add to the cost of treating Medicare beneficiaries."

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: heric
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 05:52 PM

Not an Obama quote, but this:

Q: Would the proposed cuts to Medicare limit access to care and services for seniors?

A: Seniors have been vocal in expressing concern over the impact of the overhaul on their benefits. The fear comes from the fact that as part of the reform, the government intends to cut billions from Medicare.

Obama has stressed repeatedly that the cuts don't translate into reduced benefits for Medicare recipients, but America's Health Insurance Plans, the industry's trade group, disagrees.

"Cuts of that magnitude are going to have a significant impact on seniors," Zirkelbach said. "Seniors are going to pay higher premiums, lose benefits, and in some parts of the country lose access to Medicare Advantage."

The House bill has proposed some $380 billion in cuts over 10 years, with about $150 billion to come out of the pocket of Medicare Advantage plans. These are private plans that offer full Medicare medical coverage.

Critics have argued the federal government has for too long over-subsidized these policies, reimbursing them by as much as 14 percent more for the same services that traditional Medicare provides as a way to encourage seniors to pick a private option.

Another big chunk of the cuts are expected to come from reduced reimbursements for hospitals, nursing homes, home health agencies and imaging services. Reductions in benefits or payments to physicians are not on the table; in fact, the bill would give physicians more money.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/08/17/MNT4198FQ4.DTL&type=politics

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 05:57 PM

Greg F.

I watched the meeting on TV- You are now claiming that the men in black helicopters edited the realtime feed?

I guess I can't believe my own eyes and ears- I better wait until Obama tells me what I am supposed to believe before thinking about it.


If Obama is paying for this with cost savings, who is responsible for the cost overruns that there MUST have been in order to generate "2/3 of the costs" from these savings? Haven't the Democrats been in control of Congress for the last 2 1/2 years??? And nobody thought to try to make those savings before?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 06:03 PM

See my link to the letter to the Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services (CMS), from the Medical Group Management Association regarding Medicare Advantage.

The semantics used can twist this around to the idea that care will be eliminated when actually the goal of reform is to increase efficiency, not reduce care. But, those who want to keep crying wolf will continue, because it fits their partisan political loyalties.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 06:09 PM

"the goal of reform is to increase efficiency, not reduce care"

I agree- that is the GOAL.

The goal of invading Iraq was to make the US safer- so you (all) were obviously in favour of it, right?

But the effect ( of noble/desirable goals) is often different, as can be seen from the many complaints here about the last administration.

So far I have yet to see ant protests or demonstrations at the "town hall" meetings that even approaches the ones I saw during the Bush administration.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 06:11 PM

...plenty silly enopugh BEFORE he got scared.

Couldn't we cut out that kind of playground personal stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 06:12 PM

...plenty silly enopugh BEFORE he got scared.

Couldn't we cut out that kind of playground personal stuff?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 06:18 PM

"The goal of invading Iraq was to make the US safer- so you (all) were obviously in favour of it, right?"

Wrong!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 06:19 PM

My God, what a society! Squabbling about right versus left, Democrats versus Republicans - percentages of people for and against in a 'supposed' neutral poll. Why on earth can't the 'so called' protector of the Free World even protect it's own?
Because people like DougR complain that he 'may be' losing something that his countrymen (and of course those wretched Illegal Immigrants - so many of whom he knows are there because he's met them) may neeed! Shame on you for argueing what the rest of the free world already know. Universal health care is right. And it CANNOT be run by mercenaries, for that is what the insurance companies are. Wake up USA, the world doesn't start at New York and end in Los Angeles.
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 06:20 PM

Here is more about Medicare Advantage and why it needs reform:

http://www.ncpssm.org/news/archive/vp_medicare_advantage/



"...Overpayments are used to improve insurance industry profits and are not completely passed along to beneficiaries. When Congress approved the system which overpays private plans, policymakers intended that the excess payments be returned to beneficiaries in the form of additional benefits or reduced cost-sharing. It is not at all clear to what extent this is occurring. Private plans are subject to few public reporting requirements, so it has been extremely difficult to determine what percentage of the overpayments has padded the profit margins of the private insurance companies offering the plans, or has been used for marketing, rather than being returned to beneficiaries. In the case of Private Fee-For-Service plans, MedPAC found that only about half of the excess payment is used to deliver extra benefits for enrollees. The remainder of the payment is used to finance the administrative costs, marketing, and profits of private plans..."

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 06:45 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: The Barden of England
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 07:01 PM

I can say no more than what George Papavgeris (a Greek Immigrant with such a wonderful understanding of the English language that he makes me feel totally inadequate) has to say in this song:- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKeLD7KvKRM .
That says it all really. Celebrate!! We're all human for ***** sake
John Barden

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 07:08 PM

yes, "there are threads that bind us all together"

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Amos
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 07:29 PM

Bruce:

The difference is that the Obama administration has worthy goals and tries to be transparent and encourages actual dialogue even if it means the risk of some wing-nut dramatizations being thrown into the mix, whereas the Bush administration had secretive, corporation-driven goals, sought to be as secret as possible and encouraged wing-nut dramatization as a substitute for dialog.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 07:44 PM

Comparing the protests during the Mad-Dash-to-Iraq to those we are seeing in these so-called town meetings is a joke that only knothead righties get... There in no comparing the two...

The protests againt the ill-thought-out-invasion was based on logic and intellect...

The protests at these town meetings is based on immature adults showing just how little they understand either the issues or understand that they are showing themselves to nothing but puppets of the corportatists driven by hatred...

BTW, these are children and grandchildren of the folks who also protested back during FDR's days against Social Security...

Tell ya'll what... If you know any of these folks who still ahte Socail Security tell them to not apply for it...

(But, Bobert, they earned it...)

Bullsh*t!!! You look at these folks... They are all lower class people who will collect far greater amounts in Social Security than they put in (including accrued interest) becuase their kids and grandkids are out there working harder than any counterpart in any developed nation to pay into Social Security so that these ignorant people can have what they have... Yet when it comes to reforming a system that might allow their kids and grandkids to have afforable health insurance they are, in essence, telling their kids and grandkids to "Fu*k off", I got mine...

Makes this ol' hillbilly sick...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 08:21 PM

Amos and Bobert,

Must be nice to be one of the Ubermensch, and be so certain that you are always right and those who disagree with you are always wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 09:20 PM

If the cap fits, bruce, wear it

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 09:22 PM

I've lost track of the argument. Could someone summarize it for me in fewer than fifty words?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: heric
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 09:40 PM

Left good right bad Americans uncivilized ignorant uncharitable self-defeating. Politicans self dealing incompetent. Capitalistic fascist control. Spiralling unworkable unchangeable. Switzerland.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Peace
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 09:44 PM

OK. Are we mad at Switzerland for some reason other than they're Swiss?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: heric
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:10 PM

Well haven't you ever wondered what they feed their cows to get all those bubbles in the cheese? There's something very wrong there. Suspicious.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:25 PM

"Haven't the Democrats been in control of Congress for the last 2 1/2 years?"

Only on paper, Bruce...the Republicans bragged that they could & would derail any serious attempts to get thru major legislation that tried to undo the Bush legacy. From 07 to 09, that majority was very narrow, and the Republicans did exactly what they said. Now that the majority is larger, the details of the tactics have changed, and funded misinformation and scare mongers are replacing committee foot-dragging.

Tell a flat lie often enough and you WILL have many believing it.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:33 PM

"Tell a flat lie often enough and you WILL have many believing it. "

One always has to wonder which are the lies, as BOTH sides keep repeating that the other side is lying.


So, you are saying that if Obama repeats the same lie often enough, many will believe it??

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 10:39 PM

Couldn't we cut out that kind of playground personal stuff?

So, Kevin, when was the last (first?) time you called Douggie to task for much worse? He's the one thinks he's a stand-up comic.

Ta.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: heric
Date: 17 Aug 09 - 11:02 PM

They are not going to lower reimbursement rates AND cease reimbursing for "waste" i.e. unnecessary / inefficient care for which the providers have been receiving payments in the past AND fund the same level of *service.* That's easy enough to see.

Health care reform has to be about cost containment. You strive for optimal *results.* There are three apples on the table in front of me. I take away one. How many are left? TWO! How many did I take away? NONE! The third apple had worms inside and wasn't any good anyway!

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: TIA
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 02:17 AM

Yes, Bruce. Keep repeating lies often enough, and some people will believe even you.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:41 AM

Speaking of lies....

Republican Senator Grassley recently said this about the British health care system:

"In countries that have government-run health care, just to give you an example, I've been told that the brain tumor that Sen. Kennedy has — because he's 77 years old — would not be treated the way it's treated in the United States. In other words, he would not get the care he gets here because of his age. In other words, they'd say 'well he doesn't have long to live even if he lived another four to five years.' They'd say 'well, we gotta spend money on people who can contribute more to economy.' It's a little like people saying when somebody gets to be 85 their life is worth less than when they were 35 and you pull the tubes on them."

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 10:58 AM

And the problem is that these lies such as Alice cited get repeated over and over, and when you try to tell people they're not true, and counter with evidence, they tune you out.   It's almost like a lot of people have selective hearing. It's maddening.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:07 AM

This morning there was this interview and report on National Public Radio.

Is Britain's Health System Really That Bad?
This is a link to the page with an AUDIO file of the report.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:08 AM

You see the trick? "I've been told" - so he doesn't actually make the lying statement himself, he delegates it out to some unknwn source.

And it is a complete lie. With the additional somewhat questionable implicatrion in the background that the American system would provide the same quality of treatment that Ted Kennedy will have got ("the way its treated in the United States") for everyone who needs it.
Is that really true?   It would be, here in the UK.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:14 AM

And this NPR interview with a British surgeon about NHS.

Surgeon defends British system. This page has an AUDIO link. The report includes the recording of Senator Grassley, the quote I posted below about Senator Kennedy, and the surgeon's response to it. Another ad is played in the report from a TV campaign here showing NHS ending the life of a patient whose health care would be "too expensive".

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Stu
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:19 AM

"I've been told that the brain tumor that Sen. Kennedy has — because he's 77 years old — would not be treated the way it's treated in the United States."

If he believes everything he's told without providing some evidence then he's a gullible dick. To repeat this bollocks means he's a nasty gullible dick.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Amos
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 11:20 AM

Bruce:

It's not exackly nice, no; it's like the curse of Cassandra to see the truth and have good people not believe you.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 12:08 PM

You see the trick? "I've been told" - so he doesn't actually make the lying statement himself, he delegates it out to some unknwn source. And it is a complete lie.

I wonder if Grassley picked it from our own Douggie? who's used the same trick for years.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: heric
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 12:17 PM

http://www.donkeylicious.com/2009/08/flowchart.html

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 01:28 PM

"it's like the curse of Cassandra to see the truth and have good people not believe you"

I did notice that.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 06:46 PM

Yeah, Maryrrf, they do tune you out... Why??? Becasue they are not prepared to have an intellegent discussion...

But this goes way, way back... The BIG LIES that the righties have come up with over the years to scare up the morons and thugs are just amazing...

Now it's "death panels"???

And the beat goes on... And on... And...............

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 06:58 PM

Let your legislators know you feel like this.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 07:00 PM

If you support health care reform as the White House is promoting, you can provide feedback at this link:

http://www.healthreform.gov/support.htm

The screaming and ranting misinformation is grabbing all the attention.

The White House needs your feedback if you agree with the health care reform they are trying to achieve.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 07:04 PM

dang... need to fix that link

here it is:

http://www.healthreform.gov/support.html

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Alice
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:02 PM

Here is another way to add your support to the public option as part of health care reform.
http://standwithdrdean.com/ sign the petition w/Dr. Howard Dean

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Azizi
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:20 PM

A new low:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVS4Zgjm8HE

Woman Yells Heil Hitler To Jewish Man at Las Vegas Town Hall

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:27 PM

Thanks, Alice! I just signed them both.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:28 PM

I believe it is time for Obama to step out from behind his shield and just lay out what *he* wants... Letting Congress come up with a plan is a waste of time... Congress is terribly dysfuntional and not capable... Congress has had enough time to put together sevarl frameworks and Obama is wasting time if he thinks that he can get any Republicans on board... That won't happen...

Yeah, it's time for him to stand up and be who folks who voted for him thought they were getting... His poll numbers aren't dropping because he's trying to get bipartisan support... They are dropping because he hasn't stood tall in the saddle...

Screw the Repubs... They are no more than pesky gnats bhuzzin' around Obam's head...

Tell ya'll what... You know this ol' hillbilly ain't really no Dem but I did work for Obama 'cause I thought he had the courage to stand up to special interests... If he doesn't support a public option and fight fir it he will have lost me... I'll just go right back to the Green Party and never look back... This was a real iffy thing for a Greenie to support Obama and lots of us aren't gonna stick too long if this guy folds his tent becasue a few loonies show their asses on TV... That ain't courage in my book...

Obama knows exactlt where the progressive wing stand on this issue... He doesn't need to hear from me... He knows that coops won't fix anything... This ain't rocker surgery here...

No public option and no more support for this administration from this ol' hillbilly...

Square business!!!

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: GUEST,Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 08:37 PM

Lots of little punches will keep Obama off his stride. Ya think maybe that what the Nay sayers are doing?

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 09:09 PM

"Insurance Exec Turned Whistleblower Wendell Potter Speaks Out Against Health Care Industry
Thursday 16 July 2009"

This may have been mentioned before.

http://www.truthout.org/081009B

It's a long article but worth the time to read.

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 09:19 PM

Little punches can only fall a president without courage... Time for him to get going... No, it won't be purdy but it's time... I mean, Obama has the BIG microphone... In other words, he has all the left hooks on his side and it's time to punch back...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Nationalized Healthcare, good? bad?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Aug 09 - 09:23 PM

I hope he addresses the nation on TV and talks about what he has in mind. Straight from him to the people. Hell, it worked in the campaign, and these types of attacks on him didn't win it for the bad guys.