OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 07:27 PM

She stood up for: democracy,
fair elections
secular goverment
steming the tide of hateful religious fundamentalism
changing a military controled country and economy into a civilian controled country.

THESE ARE VERY DANGEROUS BELIEFS in Pakistan despite their 60% moderate secular population...

as it is in the USA !



Her father was hanged in the same province in which she died. Her brothers and sisters have also perished in their idealistic struggles.

Her family surpasses the ill fated deeds that befell the Kennedy family in this country.

I do not blame the CIA for her death even though the CIA dearly wanted her to end her self imposed exile. She knew what she faced when she re entered Pakistan.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 07:47 PM

I hate to beat a dead horse but when the governemnt of the world's #1 Super Power, the US of A, is so influenced by zealots and extremists it is no wonder that ohters in the world emmulate the big role model...

Bottom line the US needs to be a better role model...

No, I am not placing all the balme here but there are things that the US could do better to support democracy and freedom and that would be to eductae it's own citizens about tolerance and acceptance of other folks beliefs...

Does this gloss over this woman's assasination??? No, it doesn't... But we lowered the bar in the 60's when we allowed our own leaders to be gunned down...

Like it or not, we are role models and since the end of WW II we ahven't been good role models: McCarthism, Vietnam, Corportism. Militariasm, Iraq...

In the words of the late Waylon Jennings, "We need a change"...

I don't blame this on Bush as much failed and arrogant US governemnt since WW II... We really haven't had to put in the hard work and it now shows...

That, my friends, is the way I see it...

BObert

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 07:54 PM

"Religion, whether you follow a faith or not, was invariably formed, in all cases, out of respect and care for our fellow human beings."

Oh my, Jim Lad....that is just factually not the case. Do you really think our ancestors in caves put 'respect and care' above pure fear when trying to figure out what made lightning hit them?

etc...

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 08:23 PM

It seems that there is no sadness so great, no tragedy so horrendous that some atheist or malcontent will not exploit it.
Religion, whether you follow a faith or not, was invariably formed, in all cases, out of respect and care for our fellow human beings.
Religion by its very nature is extremely vulnerable to exploitation but is not the evil.

Bill D beat me to it. Those are the lines of an apologist.

Religion may have formed to teach people how to get along, how to level a playing field in a given environment. They worked as long as they stayed local. But when they become regional (or larger) and industrialized (like christianity or judaism or muslim) then they are a power game and often a power grab.

SRS

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 08:35 PM

What Bill said...

Greedy people have used religion forever as an excuse to do some purdy messed up things...

Oh, ye masters of war...

The Crusades was a terroristic war... I mean, you can forget the movie versions... It was terrorism...

Today, we have so-called Christains who think it's okay for Israel to practice terrorism on Palestinians???

Hey, Jesus wouldn't advocate colonialism...

He told his disciples that in some cases folks werwen't gonna accept what you have to offer... He never said, "Well, if they don't like it then lets fu*c them up"...

But you have perfectly well meaning people, who just never made it past the Old Testament, who think just that... This is extreme thinking... It defies logic...

No, religion in itself isn't the problem its the folks who copntrol the churches and palces or worship... Too many have agendas based on greed and revenege...

If Jesus were to come back today, these folks would have Him arrested... And you can take that to the bail/bondsman...

B~

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Jim Lad
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 10:31 PM

Religion by its very nature is extremely vulnerable to exploitation but is not the evil.

Your anger/disdain is misdirected.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 11:29 PM

Bush faith based initiatives and the many evangelical freedom forums tightly knit to the White House has always made me feel that the Bush Rove model led this country down a path of religious fundamentalism designed to divide this country.

A military state that can rely on religious zealots to believe that to even question our numerous wars is tantamount to traitorous sedition, is a miltary state sanctified by God and beyond oversight.
Some call it jihad against the infidels and others call it a war on terror.

But to clarify my previous remarks it is true that radical positions such as standing up for the poor and fair religions and oversight over hate filled religious movements is dangerous BUT not nearly as dangerous in the USA as it is in Pakistan.

Pakistan is larger than Russia. They have more people than Russia. They have some Russian missle technology and 25+ nukes of their own.
Pakistan is no small potatos.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,TR
Date: 27 Dec 07 - 11:49 PM

Religion in itself is not destructive, it is the people who use it as a shield to hide behind that are. They are the people who need to be condemned.
It;s really unfair to say that religion causes conflict...no real religion would advocate warfare and destruction; tha's just people making up excuses not to believe in something bigger than them!
Bhutto shouldn't have been killed because np matter how corrupt anyone is-and she was! she obviously had under the table dealings with Musharaff and her ultiate objective was power and glory-no one deserves to be eliminated for political gain the way she was.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: katlaughing
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 12:14 AM

Sometimes one just never knows the people closest to them. The following is a comment by the mother of a man who just helped his girlfriend murder six family members in Washington State: She told The Seattle Times that her eldest son was a "good Christian" and she was shocked he had been arrested in the slayings.

Makes one wonder how she judged him to be a "good Christian." I KNOW there are many, many good people who are also Christian. Her statement just struck me as ironic in relation to this discussion.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Slag
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:35 AM

If ever there was a person in this day where East met West it was Benazhir Bhutto. What a tragedy.

Religion, ideology, racial purity, what ever floats one's murderous little boat, the net effect is the same. Much good has been done in the name of the same, excepting "racial purity"! The answer is there and it is held by those who refrain, those who are tolerant TO A POINT! It is the imbalance which must be recognized and have an effective intervention and tight monitoring. Blanket statements such as "Religion" is responsible for the evil in the world" does nothing but inflame passions and lock people into a stance. It is as bad as stereotyping by race and just as erroneous. That is one thing the life of Benazhir Bhutto has demonstrated. What a patriot to and for Pakistan she was!

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:34 AM

It;s really unfair to say that religion causes conflict...no real religion would advocate warfare and destruction; tha's just people making up excuses not to believe in something bigger than them!

People don't HAVE to "believe in something bigger than them." They need to understand that religions have been used to bludgeon The Other when it grew large enough to encroach on the neighbors. Religions as a way to teach cooperation, a way to pass on traditions, a way to teach sustainable living in a given area is one thing--ritual is a good way to remember. A religion that is a template for existence in one region that is plopped down upon others who are then forced to accept it is another. Everyone is entitled to their own Origin Story without reference to the dominant religion, but the dominant religion (in many given areas) won't leave them alone. Those who must justify the existence of their religion by converting others are the problem. What is it in religions that creates this zeal in some groups, but not in others? The colonial enterprise is a really flawed system that rose from a combined politcal and religious partnership (i.e., the Conquistadors and the Catholic church).

Bhutto was, as was mentioned above, the person who embodied "east meets west." Musharraf has made great concessions that one doesn't necessarily expect from "dictators," and he appeared willing to work with Bhutto--don't write him off. Now my greatest fear is that the dick-head in the White House is going to stick his nose in or put his hands on the situation. The Pakistani's MUST work this out for themselves without Dubya's interference. If Pakistan goes up, you will be looking at WW III. Dubya is just the fool to walk into that firework stand with a lighted match.

SRS

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:50 AM

Just to expand on one of Geopolitic's points. Musharraf chose the west as opposed to militant Islam.
We had all better be glad that he chose it, and hope that Pakistan continues to do so. The disciples of Al Quaeda would like nothing better than to take control of a country which possesses a nuclear arsenal.
No need to worry then about them assembling a 'dirty bomb' using bits and pieces salvaged from hospital radiology departments,or Russian nuclear power stations, because they wouldn't have to go to all that bother.
If there is the SLIGHTEST chance of the militants seizing power in Pakistan, the US and her allies will be in there quicker than lightning.
Giok

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Partridge
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 05:04 AM

This is a bad thing for Pakistan and the world. I hope that there will be no need for interference from others.
I also feel sad for her children

Pat

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: goatfell
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 06:59 AM

well I Hope that the American and British Governments are happy now.

what a sad day for us all

Tom frae Scotland

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:28 AM

Obviously a hideous tragedy for Pakistan and the world.

Also a shame that some people on Mudcat seem to be so petty that they are determined to tie this tragedy to their own anti-religion hobby-horse. It should be obvious to anybody who takes off blinders for just a minute that any belief can be abused--including secularism. In fact that particular phenomenon--abuse of secularism-- seems to happen fairly often on Mudcat--perhaps a reaction to perceived powerlessness off Mudcat--since religion still plays a large role, including, still, in US politics. .

Anybody who has said that that religion should be "stamped out" has no leg to stand on in criticizing terrorism--the line between advocating that a belief be "stamped out" and terrorism is very thin. I'm sure the suicide bomber who killed Bhutto was convinced she and her ideas needed to be "stamped out"--even at the cost of his own life.

I challenge anybody, however, to find justification within Islam for what the suicide bomber did.


Another, much less significant , but still noteworthy, aspect of the Pakistan disaster is that it is likely to strengthen those presidential candidates who claim "experience"--including Hillary. Though if her opponents are smart they will point out that the bulk of her "experience" was as First Lady, not exactly a first-rank foreign policy position. And as Senator, she's not been a mover and shaker in foreign policy--more like an enabler for Mr. Bush.

But we'll see.

As to whether Musharraf had a hand in the killing, he wouldn't have to have a direct hand--just not try hard to ferret out the al-Qaeda sympathizers in his own government. Remember that Bhutto herself accused Musharraf--recently, in fact, after a failed attack on her-- of not trying hard to provide security for her appearances. She may well have been right--though it's not anything we're likely to get a clear answer on any time soon.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:52 AM

Ron-

Very well reasoned.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:53 AM

Even if, as seems likely, Musharraf is totally against al-Qaeda, and would try to eliminate its sympathizers from his government, there were other sources of plots to kill Bhutto--and he no doubt was well aware she was the most likely person to take his position. So he may not have wanted to devote many resources to protecting her. His answer would no doubt be that he did not have the resources, and that keeping her under house arrest was protecting her. (With the added, unsaid, side benefit of preventing her from effective campaigning).

But at this point this is straying into the realm of pointless speculation.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:06 AM

It is sad and tragic that this happened but it is time to face reality.
The War On Terror is being hopelessly lost and another course must be
considered. Any zealot with a few bags of fertilizer or a can of gasoline can kill many as long as he doesn't value his own life. Often he is raised in hopeless poverty and ignorance and can easily be made a tool or weapon of arseholes who control him. The answer is never simple but it must start by raising the standard of living and the education of people in the third world. This may require a whole generation or more to pass, and probably reducing the wealth of some nations in order to share the world's resources with the world's people. Democracy means little to one who has never known it. An empty belly means little to one who has never known it. Religion promises a better life dead than alive so the answer for too many is an act of desperation.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:08 AM

Thanks, Charlie.

I'm just trying to think this through.

It will also be interesting to see if this strengthens McCain--already surging-- on the Republican side.   Or whether his position on immigration--that of a reasonable man--is still poison for the Republican true believers. (And even some Mudcatters, of the Tancredo-Lou Dobbs school).


In Pakistan it's hard to see anything for the foreseeable future but--dangerous--chaos. The prospect of which will of course strengthen Musharraf.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:24 AM

"..a better life dead than alive". Still the attempt to blame religion for the world's ills. Again, where is the justification within Islam for what the suicide bomber did? It is clearly an abuse of Islam. And, yet again, any belief can be abused.

As has been noted earlier on other threads, of the 3 men responsible for most deaths in human history--Stalin, Hitler and Mao--none were exactly religious firebrands. You may want to declare nationalism to be a form of religion--very convenient for your argument--but rather transparently self-serving.

And yet again, an example of a belief which in itself is not evil--but can be abused.

QED.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 11:44 AM

(Ron, OBL would offer a reasoned argument as to the justified murder of yet another murdered Bhutto. Sadly the neocon Bush regieme has lent much creedence to OBL's argument.)

.


____________________________________________________________________

It was 25 years ago when a young CIA recruiting agent, a few years younger than I and really just a kid told me, "if you don't join the team you will be on the low road for the rest of your life while I will take the high road and assure you stay on the low road!".

I wonder if he is still alive and prosperous and if alive how much damage he has done to our country for his prosperity. I wonder if travel has broadened his mind beyond mine without as much travel.
I wonder if I could have made any difference with internal dissent to insane policies based on perception is the only reality. When our CIA gives money and weapons to a young OBL and even now gives billions to a Pakistan military dictatorship and over a billion dollars to Iranian officials who are in Iraq clothing you should be able to see how fucked up they are. These are the same guys who just happened to miss the fact that the Soviet Union had passed on. The CIA needed a new cold war and got one while they missed the golden chance to cement relations with Russia. Now Russia has half of oil in the world along with their neighbor Iran and can step all over a USA now devoid of its treasury wasted in a 18 year war in Iraq and recently Afghanistan
I wonder if there are any good shepards on the high road have any humanity or compassion for the sheeple they believe need tending.

Mr. X if you can hear me anymore, I put it to you that your high road was cocaine for money and for a few dollars left over you bought weapons for Iran. You blew up a dozen Mosques killing 800 people and missed your singular target each time. You helped support a regime than bankrupt this country. I tell you now that hiring a bad guy to catch or kill a bad guy just made bad situations worse.
You were a hired killer for a handful of banking families and not your country or Constitution.

I put it to you that you took the lowest road of all
even if your unknown name is just a star on the wall.
Perhaps you are merely a disillusioned cubicle jockey who was sidelined for being a boy scout and speaking the truth.
Here is looking down at you kid, now matter what your Swiss bank account says.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 11:56 AM

"..a better life dead than alive"
I think that I was more blaming religious zealots. OBL and the Taliban are religious zealots. They seem to have a lot of support. I don't say that GWB is a zealot but he seems to have a lot of support from the "born again" christians, and some of these I would call zealots as well.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 12:11 PM

Unlike most phoney born again christians
Bush is a REAL bored again christian.
He has learned that trading souls for money is the business of gods.
His legacy shall only be put in true perspective after 2000 years.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 12:49 PM

"Anybody who has said that that religion should be "stamped out" has no leg to stand on in criticizing terrorism..."

    "It will also be interesting to see if this strengthens McCain--...Or whether his position on immigration...is still poison for the Republican true believers. (And even some Mudcatters, of the Tancredo-Lou Dobbs school)."

    "...of the 3 men responsible for most deaths in human history--Stalin, Hitler and Mao--none were exactly religious firebrands."



                            Ron - It looks like you're phishing!

             You seem to want to avoid the reality of the dangers of religion, but don't forget, Hitler was Catholic. And when he wanted to extend his influence over the German people, he tried to resurrect
Norse Mythology. He certainly understood the down side--or for his purposes, the up-side--of religion.

               Further, anyone discussing immigration in America who can't distinguish between the motives of Tom Tancredo and Lou Dobbs just hasn't looked very deeply into the problem, I would suggest.

                      Finally, as sad as it is, Bhutto, in the end, seems to me to have become a victim of religious followers, people who are simply incapable of thinking for themselves.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Jim Lad
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:06 PM

Can you just imagine the determination & conviction that this woman must have felt, knowing that she was stepping into a boiling cauldron?
At best, her chances of success versus assassination were 50/50 and yet she still went.
That my friends, is real courage.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:13 PM

Rig--

Sorry to say, but your arguments are getting just slightly boring--you seem to have only one note on your scale. For the n'th time, Hitler abused religion--and nationalism and a host of other things. This does not negate the value of religion-- or nationalism or the others. And you have provided precisely zero evidence to contradict this.

And if you think I am "phishing", let's have some direct quotes to back that up.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:16 PM

If you have a lot of interest in learning more about Benazhir Bhutto and her family, and a lot of patience, try reading Daughter of the West by Tariq Ali, London Review of Books. Here's a link to an on-line version: Click at Your Own Risk!

The nightmare continues for Pakistan.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:17 PM

"Tancredo-Lou Dobbs school". If the shoe fits.....

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:25 PM

At the risk of egregious thread creep, however, I'd be sincerely interested in the difference between the motives of Lou Dobbs and Tancredo. Who knows, maybe others would be also. They both seem to me to be appealing to the baser instincts of fearful people--as did Hitler--and Bush. And religion is at most a bit player--except in the case of Bush.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:29 PM

Ron - Tom Tancredo is a right-wing-religious wakko, whose only claim to fame is he was right about illegal immigration in America.

                     Lou Dobbs bases his arguments on the plight of the lower and middle class American citizenry. He is sympathetic to what is happening to them and thinks the government should do something to help them. The most important thing the government could do would be to try to curtail the out-sourcing of jobs and stop the influx of illegal aliens.



                     None of this has anything to do with Bhutto, however, and probably doesn't belong on this thread.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:42 PM

Rig--

Good to hear you realize Tancredo is a wacko. That's progress.

But if Lou Dobbs is a paragon of virtue, why is he not pushing for more legal immigration? If the jobs are here, the workers will come--legally or illegally.

And if he is not pushing for more legal immigration, that raises the possibility that he is against all immigration. Why? Most immigration now is by non-whites. Is that a factor? The unjustified--and inflammatory--fear that English will be displaced in the US seems to be a feeble facade for what looks like hidden racism.

But we both agree this is egregious thread creep.

And I note you have still provided no evidence against my assertion that Hitler abused both nationalism and religion. And that his doing so does not negate the worth of either.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:45 PM

Ron - if you want to pursue this, you should probably start another thread.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:50 PM

Rig--

I have spoken to your assertion that religion and not abuse of religion is behind the assassination of Bhutto. You have provided no evidence to support your case.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:53 PM

She's dead! What more evidence do you need?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 01:56 PM

I thought Pol Pot was on the list of the biggest killers of people, too.

And I wonder how many lived in Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

But mostly, I have always wondered about Bhutto, and have never escaped a sneaking fear that the side she was most truly always on was - her own. I also have that worry about Ken Livingstone, and Goerge Galloway, but oddly I never had it about Arthur Scargill, a man whose main failing was (IMHO) bad timing.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:17 PM

Rig--

There's none so blind as...

Obviously she's dead. You say religion killed her. I say abuse of religion killed her. Can you not see the difference? If not, why not?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:26 PM

So you're right and he's wrong, is that it, Ron? Give it a break. The best you can do is represent your position. Stop insinuating that if he doesn't give you the kind of evidence you require that he is wrong.

SRS

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:34 PM

Jeez, Rig, you must be really desparate!

"She's dead! What more evidence do you need?"

That's the same kind of logic as the guy who kept snapping his fingers all the time. A fellow walked up to him and said, "You know, that's getting really annoying. Why do you keep doing that?"

"Because," said the finger-snapper, "it keeps the wild elephants away."

"Keeps the wild elephants away? But there are no wild elephants within thousands of miles of here!"

"See?" said the finger-snapper, "It really works!"

Don Firth

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 02:47 PM

Okay, in an effort to avoid being labeled a perpetual finger snapper, I'll say this: at this point in time, we don't really know the motive of the fellow who killed her. In fact, the official story from the government at the moment is, she was never really shot, she bumped her head trying to get back in the car, and the bump on the head killed her.
                   So we'll wait and see if somebody claims credit for the killing, and if-and-when they do, we'll see if some whakked-out religious weirdo did it. If, when all that has been accomplished, we can be reasonably certain that a whakked-out religious weirdo killed her, we can conclude that religion is dangerous, and she was a victim of religion.
                   Until that time, we're only guessing and we really don't know.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Don Firth
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:00 PM

In that case, to blame the religion is still doesn't follow. It's the whakked-out weirdo who killed her, not his religion, even if that's what he thought it told him to do.

The "Son of Sam" killer some years back said that God told him to kill the people he killed. The man was insane. Whatever he thought was talking to him, it sure as hell wasn't God.

You could hardly blame religion for some psycho's delusions. Or some political assassin's motives.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: robomatic
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 03:16 PM

I have a lot to say on the subject: "Religion-positive or negative?" but that is for a different thread than this.

I was a member of the international student community at my university. I remember taking an attractive Pakistani coed for her first motorcycle ride ("Please if you have an accident, make sure to kill me! I don't want to be disfigured!") We had a nice, SAFE, ride on my used but maintained 750, and during lunch we delved into politics, and in her conversation I realized that it was a matter of fact to her that political winners jailed and executed the losers, because if they didn't the same would happen to them. This was a revelation to my young ignorant self.

Much later, when ul Haq planned to execute Benazir's fater, Ali Bhutto, the student association attempted to however weakly delay the act by inviting him to be a guest speaker (he had a past affiliation with our school). The Indian Student Association quickly and decisively put the kibosh on any such action, however ineffective it would have been.

Anyhow, I had a keen sense of loss when I heard the news yesterday morning. I doubt she was perfect, but she was clearly one of "the good guys" in that environment, she showed grace, class and courage in a tough place.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:10 PM

Robo - Yes she was all of those things.


                  Don - Somebody in Alabama or Arizona must be snapping their fingers, because all of the elephants seem to be in Iowa scrapping for the nomination.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:26 PM

Rig--

You're right about Iowa (though it has nothing to do with the thread). The reason is obvious also. Something on the order of 40% of the usual Republican caucus vote in Iowa are voters who call themselves Christian conservative. As a Republican running in Iowa, to not appeal to those voters is to write off about 40%.

This is also the reason the Republicans will have big trouble if they pick Giuliani as the nominee--those true believers are also the ones who are willing to man phone banks, canvass, put up signs in their yards, drive people to the polls. etc.--and they won't do any of that for Giuliani--he's too moderate in social views for them.

The question is whether they would do it for McCain--whether having a certified national hero as the nominee--as opposed to yet another draft-dodger (Giuliani)-- would offset his moderate social views enough to make them proud to support him.

But it's just possible this is thread creep.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 04:37 PM

Ron - I know they have elephants in India, do they have them in Pakistan as well? Maybe the thread hasn't crept as far as we thought.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Greg B
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:10 PM

She was a flicker of civilization in a society of savages.

To say nothing of having a face that radiated light and
beauty, which probably didn't hurt.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 07:29 PM

Charley, I read that Tariq Ali piece when it was published a week or so ago. What's your problem with it? Too well informed?

Giok said: "If there is the SLIGHTEST chance of the militants seizing power in Pakistan, the US and her allies will be in there quicker than lightning." But how can America charge in anywhere, when they are already struggling to maintain troop levels in Afghanistan and Iraq? And WHAT allies?

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 08:54 PM

Invade Pakistan? Not too likely - they actually do have Weapons of Mass Destruction. And an invasion would probably ensure that those were in the hands of the very people who would use them, and not just in Pakistan.

I think it more likely that the USA will do whatever it can to try to ensure there is a strong authoritarian government that can sit on things - and only too likely that this will fail, and that there will be that there might be a strong populist government swept to power, which would be strongly nationalist and probably anti-Western, at least in rhetoric. Rather akin to what happened in Iran a generation back.

And in the USA itself I can see Hilary Clinton benefiting, with some of the hate against her looking a bit too close to what was said about Benazir Bhutto by her opponents.

But they'd better ensure there is pretty good security for her and for Obama in the coming months and even years - assassinations don't just happen in Pakistan.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Charley Noble
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:26 PM

PeterK-

I don't have aproblem with the "Tariq Ali piece" linked above, and encourage everyone who is really interested in understanding what has happened to read it. I doubt that many Mudcatters will do that. It's much more satisfying to just react to international events with hardly a clue of what is going on. I often do that myself.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: GUEST,Obie
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 09:46 PM

"assassinations don't just happen in Pakistan"
Too true McGrath!
"But they'd better ensure there is pretty good security for her and for Obama in the coming months and even years "
Too true as well! However, each stage of security removes such people from contact with the electorate. Democracy can only suffer from this as well. Bhutto accepted the threat in order to foster an understanding of democracy among her people.

Subject: RE: OBIT: Benazhir Bhutto Assassinated
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 28 Dec 07 - 10:21 PM

100