BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:25 AM

McCain's not a Catholic. He's always been an Episcopalian (a kind of Protestant), but lately he's taken to calling himself a Baptist.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:27 AM

Who gives a rat's ass what religion they are.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:28 AM

The bigots do, number 6.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:32 AM

You are correct on that one Carol C. :)

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:44 AM

Rabbi Sol

If attacks on Israelis are your only concern, you ought to go and vote there. Certainly the government there has a lot more say in preventing those attacks than any candidate here.

Maybe you should try to remove the veil of hatred for Muslims from your eyes and try to see things from their point of view.

I pray for Israel. I pray that it will stop its course of expansion repression and theft before those sins consume that country beyond redemption.

If Eretz Isreal is the goal behind this madness, I urge you to remember that as a promise from God. It is only God's to give.

No number of modern day would be Joshuas in F16's will make that come to pass. Prayer and a quest for peace is the path. Not conquest using my tax money.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:52 AM

"I woke up this mornin' and none of the news was good
And death machines were rumblin' 'cross the ground where Jesus stood
And the man on my TV told me that it had always been that way
And there was nothin' anyone could do or say

And I almost listened to him
Yeah, I almost lost my mind
Then I regained my senses again
And looked into my heart to find

That I believe that one fine day all the children of Abraham
Will lay down their swords forever in Jerusalem

Well maybe I'm only dreamin' and maybe I'm just a fool
But I don't remember learnin' how to hate in Sunday school
But somewhere along the way I strayed and I never looked back again
But I still find some comfort now and then

Then the storm comes rumblin' in
And I can't lay me down
And the drums are drummin' again
And I can't stand the sound

But I believe there'll come a day when the lion and the lamb
Will lie down in peace together in Jerusalem

And there'll be no barricades then
There'll be no wire or walls
And we can wash all this blood from our hands
And all this hatred from our souls

And I believe that on that day all the children of Abraham
Will lay down their swords forever in Jerusalem"

.... Steve Earle

Sorry ... just had to post it.

JTS ... good post.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:15 AM

Thanks for the Lyric, Six. I had to go find the song. Its a good song, combines some of the best attributes of Bob Dylan, Woody Guthrie and Bruce Springsteen.


Steve Earle - Jerusalem

Cool that I have a guitar like too, that except mine is has dots marking the frets instead of blocks.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:21 AM

Thanks Jack ... When I first heard this song by Steve it really moved me ... I can certainly relate to it ... especially the first 2 stanzas.

Here is an article that some might find interesting ... especially relating to this thread. It's an Israeli's view concerning this U.S. election.

2 Americas

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:21 AM

bILL

That was such a good song, I'd like for you to hear this one.

Billy did this well before Obama's run for President. But if anyone can preside over the "barn raising" that Billy is talking about its Barrack Hussein Obama.


The Price of Oil

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: number 6
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:43 AM

Great song ... much thanks Jack.

The only hope the "barn raising" for the U.S. and for the world (as for we all are one community) is Barrack Hussein Obama.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:48 AM

Thanks for the Article. Excellent.

Here's another Bill Bragg. Bet you a quarter you laugh out loud, albeit nerviously at the end of the first verse.

Billy Bragg - Waiting For The Great Leap Forward

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:50 AM

Great article, number 6!

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:53 AM

Pretty weak stuff, Sol...and Moaz really has done nothing nothing more than quote other articles written elsewhere. He does attribute, so I guess you can't call it plagiarism.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Donuel
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 10:11 AM

Well drop my jaw and pee in my socks, I heard Rove is working on...

McCAIN & JEB BUSH 08! (look for the trial balloons in June.)

Rove thinks it will energize the base more than Romney or Lieberman.
(Rove has been wrong before)




Bill, Amos & others, I think the fear within the Jewish community is that Obama is not just that he may not be a friend to Isreal, but that a real withdrawl of US troops will put Isreal in a more precarious position. That is probably what is behind the hyperbole of ficticious anti sememetic claims.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 12:24 PM

From the first article that Rabbi-Sol posted.

>>>Several concerns leap out at us. Until this speech, Sen. Obama maintained that he hadn't heard or known about Rev. Wright's controversial comments. This claim plainly did not pass the smell test. <<<

This plainly is untrue. I saw Mr. Obama is several interviews before the speech and I have seen old recordings of Rev. Wright since then.

Mr. Obama was careful to refer to those statements that were currently playing on youtube and elsewhere when he made those statements. And it is plain to me that Wright said plenty of controversial things, critical of US policy that fall short of the inflammatory rhetoric which has caused the controversy.

Also they point out that Obama told a group in Cleveland that Wright was upset with Israel because of their support for apartheid. But the Jewish press says this was a lie because he was upset about the oppression of the Palestinians. Why couldn't both be true? Certainly it is a lie to say with certainty that Obama was lying.

This article plays fast and loose with the truth and is plainly a smear job.

If this website wants to support McCain because they feel that he is an aggressive war mongering hawk, then they out to say so. The shouldn't resort to lies and smears and false accusations of racism.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 01:30 PM

Jeb Bush will not be McCain's running mate. After the fiasco that Dubyah has perpetrated on us for the last 8 years, the GOP realizes that any name of Bush on the ballot would hurt them big time.

Too bad that Arnold was born in Austria and can never run for President. He took a literally ungovernable chaotic situation in California and turned it around. He would have been the best choice.

As far as Obama is concerned he is an eloquent speech maker who can paint a picture with words as no other candidate can. However he lacks substance. He has yet to tell the American people what specific steps he is going to take to bring about the "change" he is talking about.

African Americans are voting for him because, "he is one of us and we want to see history made in our lifetime", as one of my close Black friends (a former Hillary supporter) told me recently. Even they can not point to any specific accomplishment that he has done since he has benn a Senator.

                                                         SOL

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 02:25 PM

Rabbi-Sol,

I agree that it won't be Jeb.

I think, it almost certainly will be an evangelical Prodestant, probably a Baptist. Mccain has to appeal to the "Left Behind" readers."

I have to say that my mouth is agape with your support of Arnold.

I am I correct that you are against Obama at least partly because his estranged father was part of the Muslim faith and his preacher sometimes rails against US policy including its support for Israel, but you can support Arnold whose father was a member of the NAZI party. By your standards can I also call the Governor a "liberal" because his wife is a prominent member of the Kennedy clan.

I am certainly not that way. I am for judging the Senator and the Governor both on what they themselves say and do, not on the actions of friends and family.

You have started out here saying that you do not support Obama because of his support of Anti-semites, now that that argument has failed to gain traction, you don't support him because of his lack of experience.

It is obvious, to me at least, that your mind is made up for reasons you are not directly sharing. Since you have said that you are a one issue (support for Israel) voter. I think that you are against him because he has not expressly shared your desire to expand Israel at the cost of peace. Since McCain has, you already have your man.

Me, I don't share the view of some of McCain's backers that expanding Israel from the Nile to the Euphrates so that Armageddon will happen and the Messiah can rule for a thousand years is a good way to conduct foreign policy or a good reason to kill millions and bankrupt this country.

I am sorry to say this, but Israel's "right" to behave as they have been is not worth 4000 young American's lives, ten of thousands maimed and trillions of dollars. Not to mention dead and maimed Iraqis. My religion tells me to love my neighbor. I don't get to choose which neighbors to love based upon political expediency. Other Christians are my neighbors, saints and sinners alike, as are Jews whether they be peace loving, militant fanatic settlers or likudniks, as are Mulims in Palestine, Iraq or Dearborn.

We cannot make peace through war and we cannot solve the problem that Likud's allies in the Neocon movement have created in Iraq by throwing more lives and money at it.

It is time for the Iraq war to end. It will end soon despite what Likud and Aipac want, because that what 70% of America wants. This is a very good thing and it gives me hope. It is change we can believe in.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 02:38 PM

Jack,
       Go to www.braunsteinspeaks.com

Read his top, (most recent), post about Obama.

Then read the post below it about the Palestinians and the blood libel.

                                                 SOL

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 02:59 PM

Rabbi,

His post on Obama is decidedly lacking in substance and more than a little condescending and racist. It is uninteresting to me. If you wanted me to gather that Braunstein is a buffoon, then you have succeeded.

I agree that what Braunstein and the Hamas people are saying about each other is deplorable and has no place in civilized conversation. Israel has www.braunsteinspeaks.com, Likud and the idiotic "conservatives" have Faux News The Palestinians have Hamas. I pray for the hate mongers on both sides.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 03:55 PM

Looks like Richardson is sucking up to Obama in hopes of getting picked for the VP slot.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 03:57 PM

This column from yesterday's Jerusalem Post has a somewhat different perspective. It was written by Andrew Silow-Carrol, editor of the New Jersey Jewish News,

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 07:00 PM

I do not think Richardson would be a good VP for Obama...as much for stylistic reasons as not..I would like to see him perhaps go back to energy if he has a good grasp of it all. Darn, I liked that gov. Granholm of Michigan on first glance, although she is for Clinton and I don't know her role in the Michigan vote fiasco..but she impressed me. But she can't be vp anyway because she was born in Canada. mg

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 07:26 PM

I think Richardson would make a good Secretary of State. If Obama would pick Edwards as his running mate, and put Richardson on his short list for Sec State, he'd be pretty hard to beat.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 07:30 PM

Jack, the Sailor, I agree with you whole heartedly.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 07:33 PM

Edwards is a good choice because their messages are similar. Hillary would be a bad choice because she is too fat a target for the 527's.

I like the idea of Richardson campaigning to Hispanics. He'd be good in Debates and he makes a good speech. It would be an interesting campaign for sure.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 07:34 PM

Thank you Ebbie, I appreciate you saying that.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:01 PM

Edwards is certainly on the short list, if he would take it. I am not sure he would, but if not, I would think he would be a wonderful Attorney General. I think Richardson has probably cemented his position with Obama as Secretary of State. I had always thought he would be VP, but the events of the last week have changed that. By his endorsement, he accomplishes the same thing as he would as VP, bringing the hispanic vote. And Obama would not have to worry about exacerbating the 5% to 7% natural race based loss. For those that are not political hacks, that is the threshold we use in evaluating an African American candidate. S/he must be able to win with the addition of a 5% to 7% loss factor for those that simply will not vote for a person of color. Obama has skewed that somewhat in his favor by virtue of the young voters he has attracted, but it is still reasonable to expect that kind of defection. He also, to his credit, has done all he can to run on the basis of position, and to place the historic nature of his candidacy in a strong, but secondary place. If he makes it to the nomination, always remember that the VP's positions have less to do with the nomination than what s/he brings to the table. His choice will be based on what the polls show as a place that needs shoring up.

It is going to be a very interesting 3 months.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 08:17 PM

The Vice Presidential choice will be much more critical for McCain than it will be for either Hillary or Obama. That is because McCain is already 72 years old and had had a history of melanoma. Both the Democratic hopefuls, particularly Obama, are much younger and much more likely to survive 8 years in office.

                                                 SOL

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 09:08 PM

"The most effective thing Obama could do in selecting a running mate is recruit Colin Powell."

Another moderate Republican that would do the same thing would be Bill Cohen, a former Republican senator from Maine who served as Secretary of State under Clinton.

But probably Obama will plunk for a governor from one of the big swing states. That would be the strategic thing to do and the game is to win.

Richardson for Secretary of State. Edwards for Attorney General. Hey, the next four years could be damn good!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 09:30 PM

Throw Waxman into EPA, and we got a dream team.

Sorry to throw a wet blanket on all the dreaming going on here, but there isn't going any moderate Republican on the ticket, and you sure aren't going to see Lieberman on any Democratic ticket. I stand ready to consume all the crow you can dish up if I am wrong, but that just is not going to happen. There is no need. McCain is the one who needs across the aisle help, not Obama or Clinton.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 09:32 PM

You may well be right, Big Mick, but Lieberman's body language is certainly signalling a sure thing of some sort.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 09:38 PM

Ebbie, I am referring to Lieberman on a Democratic ticket. He may end up on the McCain ticket, because he is the one that will need help.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 09:53 PM

Oops. :)

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 10:12 PM

Edwards as AG?
Wouldn't Law and Order type be better?
How many Governors of big swing states are Democrats?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:13 PM

If you just stop and think for a moment, Lieberman would not be travelling around the country stomping for McCain unless he was promised something in return, that being the VP slot on the ticket.

                                                       SOL

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:44 PM

SOL,

Might he simply be doing that if he thought that a McCain presidency was the best thing for Israel?

Wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Amos
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:44 PM

A lot of other names have been mentioned -- including Tom Ridge, the hapless Homeland Security agency guy. But if McCain really wante dto make Obama jump hoops he would tap Condi Rice.

A

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Mar 08 - 11:48 PM

Well Condi would sew up the tight assed conservative skater vote for the GOP.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:29 AM

Democratic governors of bog swing states?

Ohio
Pennsylvania
Michigan depending on definition of swing

I've probably missed one or two.

Not Texas or Florida or California.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:42 AM

score of 2 on U.S. Campaign to End the Israeli Occupation ? Give me a break! And why is it that Jew haters and Israeli haters always mention Israeli expansionism but never mention any of this: What's the score on the campaign ending constant rocket attacks and killings of civilians in Israel? What's the score on ending incitement of hate towards Jews and complete destruction of Israel from it's neighbors? It's pretty clear from the Jewish perspective that Israel's surrounding Arab countries are gathering momentum for a major showdown to finish Israel off once and for all, and the rest of the world is accepting this possibility and now condoning the Arab violence as acceptable. Israel cannot afford to lose one time- another holocaust could be in the works, and just like the last one most of the world might just sit back and go along with it. That is why American Jews must be careful as to who they vote for - it's a matter of survival!!! Also a matter of gaining peace or having a major war- it will be a critical time.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: artbrooks
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 08:48 AM

It seems to me that a McCain/Rice ticket would have one big advantage for Obama (if he is nominated): the single-issue racists would all stay home rather than voting for McCain.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:00 AM

Jack,

Re Lieberman:

Might he simply be doing that if he thought that a McCain presidency was the best thing for the US?

Wouldn't you?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:31 AM

What's the score on the campaign ending constant rocket attacks and killings of civilians in Israel?

The campaign to end the occupation and the campaign to end the rocket attacks and killing of civilians (both in Israel and in Palestine) are the same campaign. They cannot be separated.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:36 AM

However, that was not the point in brining that one up, as I'm sure you are aware, Arnie. If Senator Obama is such an enemy of Israel, it seems to me he would have gotten a much higher score on that one. Don't you think?

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 09:40 AM

I should rephrase that one: "enemy of Israel" as defined by Rabbi Sol and those who share his perspective on this subject. Definitely not as defined by those who are working to end the occupation.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Arnie
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 10:22 AM

I really don't believe Obama is an "enemy of Israel". He's an remarkable candidate who promises much hope with his eloquent words. I do believe that Israeli's and the Jewish community are very paranoid at this time, and worried- trying to figure out the real politics of the candidates.
Here is something from the editor of The Jerusalem Post called "Editor's Notes: The challenge of the would-be presidents"
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1205420743245&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
It may give some insight into some of the thinking that's taking place in this regard.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 10:34 AM

I sure do miss Molly Ivins - she would dislike the reality of some of what is going on, but she'd love the spectacle. Cheers.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:13 PM

Jack,
      Lieberman is NOT a very wealthy man. With the high cost of fuel today airline prices are very expensive. If he has to pay out of pocket to travel all around the USA, he has to be getting something in return for it. I am sure he is not going by Greyhound. On the other hand, if the McCain campaign fund is paying the expenses they must consider Lieberman a very special person who is important to their efforts; important enough to be VP.

Would I do it? Only if someone paid my Amtrak fare. I don't fly.

SOL

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:44 PM

Bruce,

The point I was making was about Rabbi-Sol. Not about Lieberman. I was trying to present to the good Rabbi, the possibility that Joe could be supporting John for reasons other than the VP slot.

But to be perfectly honest with you Bruce, having watched him in the news for nine years, I don't believe that Lieberman is capable of separating Israel's interests from America's. And like many many others he seems to see Israel's interests from a Likud viewpoint, as a zero sum game, that everything that the Palestinians gain must be at Israel's expense.

I think that he, as McBush has done til now drive this country to division and financial peril for the sake of very dubious, small gains, in Israel's security.

Subject: RE: BS: McCain/Lieberman Vs. Clinton/Obama?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Mar 08 - 01:48 PM

Rabbi-Sol,

I am certain that McCain is paying Lieberman's expenses when our tax dollars are not. John has planes and busses and there is always room for someone as distinguished and controversial as a former Democratic VP candidate stumping for the Iraq fiasco.