A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 12:53 PM

For f--k's sake!

that's the answer - if you want to be considered for a radio 2 award - buy yourself a cackophone! Study it night and day.

Its no use blaming Mike Harding. He's just a servant of the folk music industry. A pawn in the great game of life. bringing you morris dancing the way it is out there on the street....sweaty, ferral, sexy...

this year cackophones are in. Get yourself one - preferably a big one. Go out on Dartmoor for inspiration.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:35 PM

Al, I hate to say this, but a lot of your posts have more than a whiff of very sour grapes about them.


If you're not happy with how things are, get out and change them. But the perpetual whingeing and slagging off gets really, really tired after a while.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Cotswold Maid
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:53 PM

Has anyone else watched the alleged video of the Folk Awards on the BBC2 website? All it features is snatches of the award presenters' speeches with a 2 second clip of the Demon Barbers at the end. It would really confuse anyone wanting to hear samples of the award winners' music. Does anyone care what Barbara/Mel/Harry said, or why it should be preserved for posterity?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,JM
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 01:59 PM

"How that cacophany performed by J.Moray qualified for any award is beyond me but its inclusion does back up the "Mockery" reference."

Blah blah blah bored now.

If I got a slice of your license fee I'd gladly refund you, but I didn't get paid for Monday night so I can't. Sorry.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:06 PM

Apropos of nothing, isn't it interesting how infrequently the young folkies who are doing fab things and - gasp shock horror - winning the odd award waste their time adding their voices to the whingefest that is the UK branch of Mudcat?

Just sayin', like...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:17 PM

Well, the one above you just did, SpleenCringe. :) But at least he has a shiny new award to cuddle up to tonight for solace...


The only thing that disappointed me about Jim's performance on Monday night is that he wouldn't let me put a beard on and sing in the Pretty Boys' chorus. Now that IS worth chuntering about.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:20 PM

Yup, I cross posted with Mr Moray. Sigh... almost famous...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:28 PM

Hi Sunray, I guess the point I worry about is that if you took all the people here on Mudcat who have complained about the folk awards by the BBC how many people would this total? I guess less than 100….. will this worry the BBC or Smooth opps…don't think so.

We got our fans to send in over 1000 email requests to play one of our songs on radio two but the still refused to play it. Head of music Jeff Smith replied

Dear Tony

Thanks for your e-mail.
We are frequently contacted by people urging Radio 2 to support their music.
I believe we operate a very fair music policy here at Radio 2. This allows us to pick what we believe to be the best music to appeal to our very broad audience.
Radio 2's playlist committee is very democratically run and we consider all records as championed by supporting producers who attend the meeting.
To get to the stage of even being considered for playlist, your record needed a champion and thus I put you in contact with the specialist shows that I thought would consider your music.

We take seriously every listener request and even though your 1,000 requests represent a very small percentage of the overall R2 audience I believe we have really considered it fully across our network.
Once again I wish you well and we will certainly consider any future material you produce.
All the best
Jeff

So there you go………unless a select band of producers champion your music you have no chance………………so much for democracy.

Happy new year!!!!

Tony

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:36 PM

It's one thing (though not very polite) for someone to take a cyberswipe at Ms Carthy, not knowing that she was lurking, whereupon she materialised and gave the poster a right bollocking.

It's quite another for some disgruntled Guest to make potentially hurtful but (more importantly) ludicrously untrue comments when the artist is already contributing to the thread.

I call that extremely sour grapes. Mind you, I wish I could get in on a "pretty boys" chorus too . . .

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

Tony, the BBC is completely within its remit to excercise an internal process of quality control. If they couldn't find a producer who would champion your music, maybe they simply didn't think it was of the standard they were looking for. It's not just a quantative process - it's a qualitative one as well. Personally, I'm not sure that everyone who gets 1000 signatures on a petition has a god-given right to national airplay.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 02:43 PM

Had a listen on the Youtube and I like Morays's All You Pretty Girls. Good stuff.

M3 T00. I, um, refamiliarised myself with the XTC version first, & I got an inkling of what you could do to it, but Jim M's version surpassed all expectations. The brass is genius.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Sarah the flute
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:31 PM

I am confused ....why did JM pick up the gong for best song when he didn't write it...am I missing something?

Sarah

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:32 PM

Hi Ruth,
       Just a couple of points in reply firstly it was not a petition it was 1000 individuals sending email requests into radio two using there time and there own words
Secondly the reason people sent in the requests was because we accepted that the powers that be need to filter the good from the bad. Our fans were trying to show them that there is a market for our music the question posed was how many unsigned performers can get over 1000 requests……….

answers on a post card.



But you could be right maybe we are crap! WLD can we come and sit in your corner!!!

Tony

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Barden of England
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM

I've not bothered to read too much of this thread but one thing struck me from the knowlegeable Derek Schofield, and I have deliberatley pulled this particular part from his earlier post:-
But it's only an hour, there are as many opinions as there are folkies (certainly on Mudcat) and the programme, I am sure, has all sort of pressures from the BBC. Those pressures are probably financial (have you seen the cut backs throughout the BBC?) and no doubt artistic in order to keep up the ratings.
My view of this is that the BBC is a public broadcaster,and should not be chasing ratings. How many times has a well known pop star been on the BBC promoting their latest single/album/fitness video at our expense? Is it because these people are on there so often that the BBC cannot, and does not, fulfill its charter?
John Barden

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,cardboard cutout
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:50 PM

"I am confused- why did JM pick up the gong for the best song when he didn't write it?"

Possibly because Andy Partridge hadn't turned up - because of the snow, or for whatever reason.

Even just before the ceremony, He (JM) didn't know whether AP was there or not, and had to strive to discover..

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 03:55 PM

I didn't say you were crap, Tony - I suggested that there is an internal editorial process which isn't simply about who can get the greatest numbers of their fans to write in to the station. I think that's a bit of a slippery slope as a programming policy, to be honest, and I can see why it's not a road the BBC would necessarily wish to embark upon.

Sarah the flute: the criteria for Best Original Song was discussed exhaustively in the run-up to the awards. All you Pretty girls falls quite safely within the parameters of the award as defined by the BBC. Moreover, this is not the first time that a song has won in the category which was not written by the performer.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:05 PM

Just to try to put things into perspective...

Yay! Lovely, talented, Jackie Oates won an award! About time too!

Whingers! Stop whinging and go and buy a copy of the Violet Hour! Even better, go and see her live!

Hooray for Jackie! Well done, mate!

(Sorry to come over all Lizzie, but really - some of you need to get a life and get a grip. And listen to what that nice Mrs Archer has to say).

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: robomatic
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:07 PM

Is this a kind of English 'grammy' for folk?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:12 PM

robomatic: pretty much, yes.

I agree with Spleen Cringe: I heart Jackie Oates.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:28 PM

Just listening to the replay of the Awards.

I wasn't offended by Rob Bryden's comedy.

Yeppers! Oates is good and new to me.   
Think I am in love with Chris Wood. Shhhhh! Don't tell my partner.

Burt Jansch and Ralph McTell - WOW!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 04:48 PM

VT... that's possibly because Rob Brydon is an honest-to-goodness comedy genius. If you ever want a fab night in get hold of Human Remains, the mockumentary series he did with Julia Davis an few years back...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:14 PM

Sorry to come in late to this one since I have a passionate interest.

Once again - how many have written to the Beeb with your opinions? It is absolutely no good bleating on here. They do take notice if you go about it in the correct way. I have proved it. Yes they also block and frustrate you. They must have an archive a yard high with my letters. If there was a thousand archives like that it might have helped.

Here is an alternative.....

Find your local community radio station and get them to have a folk music programme. No community station? Go and start one. It is easier to talk about doing it on here than actually going out and doing it. That's how Sheffield Live! started, a bunch of people passionate about radio set it up.

The recipients this year were not the "usual suspects" as people have come to call them - some of whom make great music. I have still never worked out why Eliza's version of her Uncle's song "Jack Frost" didn't win a few years ago.

I happen to think this second record of Jim Moray is superb and I'd like to have been on the chorus of Pretty Girls too.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:15 PM

SOS. Same Old Shite.


we're all bitter, got sour grapes,

Not really .....we just can't understand how you can be so blind as to think SOS is the folkmusic of England.

It matters cos a freight train without coaches can't really prove its a freight train and your lot has long enough and opportunity enough (usually public funded) to prove its a freight train.

Nobody in any numbers is singing its songs or dancing its dances.

We want a sea change ...something strange and beautiful.

there isn't another voice like Una's of NFA on the folkscene. Qualitative judgement from that gang of wankers, give me a break.....

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:23 PM

Hi Spleen

I was just referring earlier posters complaints about comments that mock folk musicians coming from celebrities who are not folk.

I am familiar with Brydon. I have seen him on QI, Jack Dee at the Apollo, and Annually Retentive. Very funny guy.

Now back to the crucially important stuff. We got the free download of Anji tribute to Davey Graham by Jansch and McTell. It is only available this week.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:24 PM

So Al, can you tell me which of the entrants has done anything to deserve your contempt? And what exactly it is they've done?

Why should people like Jackie Oates and Jim Moray be subjected to such unsubstantiated hostility? Have you even listened to their albums? Or heard them play live? What basis are you judging them on? The fact that they aren't 60 year old singer songwriters who've spent the last 40 years "earning their dues"?

For god's sake, get a grip, give the bitterness a rest for once in your life and let them enjoy their moment. Surely you don't begrudge them that?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:33 PM

Just thinking back on Brydon's folk jokes and all the typical associations set in a pub punch up. Broken pipe, someone's finger permanently stuck in their ear, etc. He forgot one. Instead of somone getting glassed, they could get tankard.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:37 PM

snerk!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:48 PM

Al is winding people up.

Stop biting folks. He doesn't mean it.

How do I know? Because he never backs his opinions with anything remotely like a fact.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 05:53 PM

Fair point, Dave. I still think it's pitiful behaviour though.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:00 PM

"Not really .....we just can't understand how you can be so blind as to think SOS is the folkmusic of England."

As someone who spends an awful lot of time listening to the folk music of England, Al, I feel pretty qualified to make my own judgements, thank you. My eyes are wide open.

"there isn't another voice like Una's of NFA on the folkscene."

There isn't another voice on the folk scene like Jackie's, either. From a purely personal point of view, I would rather listen to Jackie. And you know what, Al? That's all any of this is - collective personal tastes, not one person or band necessarily being "better" than another. Those kinds of qualitative absolutes are meaningless when it comes to artistic expression.

I remember your rant on the YFA thread, where you were quite abusive about some of the entrants and the winners. You seemed to genuinely begrudge these kids the opportunities they were getting - and like it or not, the subtext was "Me and my mates have never had these opportunities, why should these kids get them? We're MUCH better than they are." But that is the cumulative effect of a lot of sour grapes, I'm afraid. And the thing is, life ain't fair. Some people get opportunities, others don't. That's just the way it is.

I'd like to offer a bit of advice. There are an awful lot of people who read this forum; not all of them contribute. If you think that the sort of campaign you've waged on behalf of some of the bands you champion is a good way of getting them gigs, I may have to disagree. No one likes being told that their taste is shit, or that they MUST book someone, or being generally abused and harangued, or seeing some performers being repeatedly obnoxious about other performers and insisting that only the bands that they like are any good. This approach may well do yourself and the bands you champion more harm than good, because the business isn't just about what you put on stage, it's about people that are easy and affable to work with. Given the huge weight of very talented people who ask me for gigs, for example, am I likely to book someone who I think is going to be a difficult, miserable git? Well - would you?

Just something to think about.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:44 PM

(usually public funded)

FFS Al have you ever succesfully applied for public funding for the Arts? Any sort of Arts? And even better ever applied for Private funding?

My wife applied (successfully) for a lottery grant and nothing to do with folk music I might add.

Probably for £5,000 worked out at £10.00 per hour. About the same as people get busking.

The idea that public funding is just waiting there to be given out can only be referred to by someone who has never succesfully applied for it.

Now Al, you have had a bite from Ruth and one from me against my own better judgement.

Give it a rest.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 06:45 PM

Not really Ruth. I'm not waging campaigns on behalf of anyone. You won - hands down.

the middle classes always do.

Mary Maccarthy used to have this apothegm - naked power always discomforts the cerebral.

Maybe Mary was right, but its not going to stop me thinking my thoughts.

However I'm entitled to my opinions. And they are shared by virtually everybody outside the charmed circle.

People don't like being the dog that is waved by this stump on the rump of a once great artistic movement. You can't make us like it.

It offends our intelligence.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:01 PM

"In 1649 on St George's Hill
There was tis band they call the Diggers . . . "

. . . who were at least turning the world upside down to some purpose.

Al, give it a rest. You're spouting totally meaningless bollocks.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:20 PM

"I'm not waging campaigns on behalf of anyone."

That isn't how it looks.


"the middle classes always do"

Don't presume to wave your prolier-than-thou, "My council estate was rougher than your council estate" crap at me. You have no idea about my background.


"However I'm entitled to my opinions. And they are shared by virtually everybody outside the charmed circle."


Waiting for this great weight of opinion to manifest itself, Al. So far it seems to be largely you, moaning because you and your mates don't get enough recognition. I reiterate that I think this is a piss-poor way of trying to achieve it, and the stench of sour grapes eventually pervades these threads.


"You can't make us like it.

It offends our intelligence."

Like whatever you like. Or not. I don't really care, and as I said, these things are about personal taste and not qualitative absolutes. But taking pot shots at those who are doing well just looks petty and small-minded.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 07:33 PM

Put it another way.

Folkie dave and Spleen cringe

I have not contempt for the people who got the awards. On the contrary I have respect. You don't get that good without a lot of practice etc.

But they don't set my mind on fire. Some people do. Most of 'em are dead, after having been driven into exile. Others hang around to pick up the crumbs tossed to them by the English folkscene.

You people don't feel even a twinge of remorse for the geniuses you have neglected and driven to the edge.

All i know is on the few occasions I get asked to do a gig on the folkscene it always seems to be with second generation - the sort of trainee mediocrities. And its quite embarassing - you get people from the audience thanking you for not ignoring them - like all the other proponents of this great tradition - the one that somehow bypassed everybody you know.

I'm sixty as you point out. I have no future on the folkscene or anywhere else, because of my heart condition, but my heart bleeds for the me of twenty five years ago and the people like No Fixed abode that I see in the same position now.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 06 Feb 09 - 11:21 PM

You're still making absolutely no sense other than a very nasty wail of bitterness, envy and jealousy.
A few musicians get honoured by some of their peers. That's all it is. Sure, it boosts their careers but what, other than your own selfishness, prevents you from being happy for them and their achievements?
Other lists of awards are available. The Folk Awards are not (as Ruth says) qualitative absolutes and you may continue to like whoever it is you want even if no-one else has ever heard of them.
To describe these people as "geniuses neglected and driven to the edge" is ridiculous, arrogant hyperbole.
They may not be seeking this sort of recognition but for anyone who is, the criteria and examples to follow are quite clearly delineated and not travelling these routes does not indicate, necessarily, that an artist is "no good".

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 03:26 AM

"You people don't feel even a twinge of remorse for the geniuses you have neglected and driven to the edge"

Can't speak for anyone else (though it seems to me that Dave's radio show is pretty inclusive), but as a paying punter, and little more, I'm not sure how I can do the dastardly deed you describe. I haven't got the time or money to buy every folk record that comes out or go to every gig. So I do what any other listener does and I pick and choose those artists who's work moves me. Sometimes I take a gamble on stuff I don't know - sometimes it pays off and sometimes it doesn't. If I think someone's really good I'll tell people about it.

I can't feel remorseful about the "geniuses" I've somehow neglected if I don't even know who the buggers are! Instead of carping, why not tell us about them? People can then make their own minds up. So far from you I know about John Kelly (love his album), Jack Hudson (not my cup of tea), No Fixed Abode (singer has a good voice, but that 70s country-pop thing isn't really my bag, though I know people who would probably like it and will recommend it to them) and, um, that's about it. Which other unsung geniuses do you want to tell us about? And why are they in hiding?

Meanwhile you may say you respect the winners of these awards (and of course its your right not to enjoy their music), but if you reread your own posts surely you can see why it looks like little that you say confirms this?

I don't know about the you of 25 years ago, because back then I was a 20 year old who liked his post-punk music LOUD! A 35 year old folk singer certainly wouldn't have been on my radar then... sorry!

Personally, I'd rather hear further positive recommendations about people you think we are missing out on than popshots at people.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:06 AM

(though it seems to me that Dave's radio show is pretty inclusive),

I do try and the playlist is there for anyone to take pot shots at - should they think that is the way forward.

I even gave up the show one week for Tony from NFA to play his choice with no restrictions as to his choice of music (apart from the structure of the show). That's really exclusive Al.

So FFS don't accuse me of being exclusive,

I am prepared to bet my toilet was further down the yard than yours to show my working class credentials if you think it would be of help. And I can think of no genius from the UK folk scene I have ever neglected. But you seem to know.

Now I am off to an important football match at Beautiful Downtown Bramall Lane. UTB.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:14 AM

I don't think I can take this relationship any further.

I don't ask you to share my point of view. You obviously don't. But my views are not based on bitterness and negativity but the vision that keeps my music sharp. Its as much about what you reject as what you warm to.

I don't ask you to share my vision - merely - try and respect the right of other people to have a different point of view and to express that point of view.

The fact that YOUR point of view seems to be based on sucking up the powers that be, and a reading of AL Lloyd that is minimalistic, divisive and suppresses the voices of the English people should occasionally give you pause for thought.

However someone else is going to have provide the pauses. I am finding the temperature on Planet Mudcat a tad unpleasant.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:21 AM

Al, it seems to me that you're trying to have three separate arguments at once: one about middle-class traddie purists taking the folk scene away from its working-class roots, one about cliques running the BBC and one about how singers you like can't get a hearing. The clique stuff is vague, the class stuff is even vaguer, and you keep trying to stand them both up by referring back to stuff that you personally do and don't like.

Take Jack Hudson. I'm sure he's terrific at what he does, but what's so working-class-music-of-the-people about doing covers of LA Freeway and Dixie Chicken? It says nothing to me about my life, and it wouldn't have said anything to my Dad about his. It's personal taste, it really is.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:44 AM

Al, can you not just accept that I have different musical taste to you?

Why do you extrapolate from this to make assumptions about what I read, my family background, my relationship with the music industry and on and on?

And how come you can puff and bluster like a wounded bull but as soon as anyone challenges you act all hurt and huffy and threaten to take your ball away?

If I was to play your game I would extroplate from your posts that you are an emotionally sensitive extrovert who steams into conflict situations yet conversely can't stand conflict.

I do have the good grace to say in advance that I might be talking completed bollocks when I say that, though...

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 05:52 AM

"I don't ask you to share my vision - merely - try and respect the right of other people to have a different point of view and to express that point of view."

Al, if you frame your arguments with "everything that is currently doing well is shit, and the only stuff of any quality is what I like", it is hard to have respect for that point of view. If you want respect, it helps to give some.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 06:21 AM

Stepping aside for a moment (because I think it's about time) from Al's convoluted, whingeing paranoia, I'd like to return to what someone (who was at least investigating the earlier output of this year's FA contenders) mentioned about Jim Moray's April Morning on YouTube. This recording was put together six years ago as part of Sweet England, Jim's music degree finals dissertation, pro-tooled together in his bedroom. The music files didn't see a studio until Simon Emmerson decided to help out with mastering and it thus became Jim's debut CD, released on his own label.

On that particular track he did, I think, use a mate for the drumming but otherwise, all instruments (including pedal steel) were played by him and Jackie added violin and multitracked backing vocals. From there, they are where they are now, successful and acclaimed as a result of their own hard work. What's not to congratulate?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,John from Kemsing
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 07:38 AM

Why so much huffing and puffing? The term "Mockery" must be very upsetting for the people worked on the show. I feel the BBC are to be congratulated on their production of Folk Awards 2009. I listened to the whole Wednesday night progamme and am sure I heard some material that touched on folk music.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: MikeofNorthumbria
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 08:42 AM

BBC Radio Two provides easy listening for mass audiences. It's there to calm frustrated motorists stuck in traffic jams, and to cheer lonely home-makers struggling with mountains of dirty laundry.

On the whole, R2 does this job pretty well. So why be astonished if its "flagship" folk programme (and the associated awards list) is usually a tad bland? Blandness is what the majority of R2 listeners appear to want. And what's bland is not always bad – though something's wrong with radio if bland is all it ever has to offer.

Viewed from this perspective, it's encouraging that some unfamiliar and challenging material does get aired on the Harding show, along with all the predictable items from the official play-list. What's more worrying is how little coverage of folk music there is elsewhere on BBC radio.   (Compare the quantity, the range, and the quality of the jazz programmes on Radio Three, and ask yourself – or your Controller – why folk doesn't get similar attention.)

As to the question of whether this unfortunate situation is part of a wider middle-class conspiracy to deprive the workers of their rights – well, I have serious doubts about that, but lack the time to debate the issue here.   Musicians of all genres - amateurs, semi-pros and professionals - have known hard times before this.   Individuals may fall by the wayside, but the music survives. And it will continue to survive, if we care enough about it.

Wassail!

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: GUEST,No Fixed Abode
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 10:29 AM

Spleen Cringe
Which other unsung geniuses do you want to tell us about? And why are they in hiding?


Last year we did 130 gigs......hardly hiding..........

But then again true we tend to take our music out into the real world so I guess that could be the problem.

Tony

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 10:34 AM

Hey Tony. Reread my post, will ya?

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: Marje
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

Great to hear Jackie Oates and Chris Wood getting their gongs.

And to "Guest" up thataway who wondered why there were no Irish musicians - this is the British Broadcasting Association's awards, funded by British licence payers, so they relate to (mainly) British music. In any case Irish radio stations are already awash with Irish music, which also gets plenty recognition from its own establishment in a way that English music (as distinct from Scottish) does not.

And Mike Harding's programme, to which you are apparently not a regular listener, often features Irish music, in fact probably more often than English or Scottish. This is the cause of frequent complaints by English listeners, many of whom who would like just one hour a week's national radio dedicated to English traditional music, but have to make do with the mix of English, Scottish, Irish and American music on the Mike Harding Show.

Marje

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: evansakes
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 11:06 AM

The trouble with the folk scene that there are far too many people who think that they have a god-given right to make a living from it.

Many of these people also feel they ought to receive widespread recognition, accolades, awards etc while they strive to achieve this.

Some of this number then have the audacity and cheek to moan, groan and complain about those among them that actually DO receive some or all of the above.

It now seems once in a while an embittered self proclaimed "unsung genius" sticks his head up over the parapet.

I suggest it might be more gracious and constructive for all aspiring folk pros or semi-pros to celebrate those who whether by great artistry or good fortune (usually it's a combination of the two) have been lucky to receive the odd laurel or two.

So congratulations to Chris Wood, Chris While and Julie Matthews, Jackie Oates, Tom McConville, Lau, Andy Partridge, Jim Moray, The Demon Barbers. Not all of them would necessarily have got our vote but we wouldn't begrudge any of them their successes. Hats off also to all the others lucky enough to get nominations. Extra special kudos to Judy Collins, James Taylor and not forgetting the Black Swan Folk Club all of whom were being getting recognition for great work over many decades.

Subject: RE: A Mockery (BBC Folk Awards 2009)
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 07 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM

Hi Diane

I'd like to return to what someone (who was at least investigating the earlier output of this year's FA contenders) mentioned about Jim Moray's April Morning on YouTube. .........

Thanks for the info. Guess I might have been a little harsh. Perhaps on that particular track I felt let down because it started so clean and crisp with just his voice and that lovely guitar.

I have a penchant for simplicity, especially re certain types of song. I was quite excited at first listen because the only version of April Morning I've heard is by Folly Bridge. (I am still very new to this music scene). Though the FB harmony is fun, JM's version (at the beginning) was thrilling because of the purity. I cannot help that the entire arrangement is not to my taste. But I am impressed at how it was arrived at. Thank you for sharing that information with me.

I beleive my daugher Andie would have loved the whole piece and I daresay much of his work. She would be still young enough and was musically trained (majored in vocal performance, minored in music education at uni) to appreciate all the fine points, lost on an ignorant old lady like me.

Maybe someday, when time and money and health permit, I will be able to see JM live.

Regards

Tam