1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 05:27 AM

Xenophobia is a morbid fear of strangers, sorry; fascism is against democracy and socialism and, thus, I'm against it.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 06:18 AM

WAV - Fascism is the suppression of individual liberty to one absolute law in the name of a Greater National & Cultural well-being with any amount of bogus Volkishness invariably thrown in for good measure. This is precisely what you believe. You have no interest in the glorious realities of what people are doing, only what they should be doing according to your bizarre alien misconception of what constitutes English Culture. This is Fascism.

You are racist because your concept of English Culture refuses to take into account the multiplicity of ethnicities that constitute that culture or yet the multiplicity of influences on which that culture is founded. You are racist because you continue to publish and promote dangerously inflammatory lies founded on your misgivings regarding immigration and cultural process.

Take for example your perplexing notion that English culture is taking a hammering and when people lose their culture society suffers . No one but a Fascist and a Racist would ever write such a thing, let alone promote it as being a truth. Indeed, reading through all your other WAV MESSAGES it soon becomes evident that your only interest in folk music is to front your Fascist & Racist concepts of Culture. I'm not talking Xenophobia here, but a deep festering hatred of anything that doesn't comply with your frighteningly narrow misgiving and misunderstandings that you pass off as a good way forward for humanity.

*

Otherwise...

Barbour Shop Citterns (a foreign import like every other aspect of English Culture) were the ukes of their day; a re-entrant tuning facilitated the easy playing of CHORDAL ACCOMPANIMENTS to songs that were WRITTEN ESPECIALLY for waiting customers in barber shops to entertain themselves. No one has done this since the 18th century, so hardly a tradition in any sense of the word - unlike the UKULELE, which whilst being no less English than the Cittern, has been well-established in England for 100 years or more thus lending itself to many aspects of English musical life and capturing the imagination of a broader cross-section of English society that the Cittern ever did.

The Uke Phenomenon is a Cultural Reality - it is happening, it is making people happy, it is creating some fine music and musicians in the process. That it is also pissing off Misanthropic Racists and Fascist such as WAV is also A Very Good Thing; thus will I continue to play mine in celebration of the Common Goodness of Human Music.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 08:29 AM

S.: it is you not I that repeatedly referred to a recorder made in Japan as an "Engrish frute," and told us of your friends who make "racist jokes" at the pub. You will NOT find suchlike from me in my Messages (above) nor anything else I have published.

You also told us that the mods have now stopped you from changing your nickname yet again - I'd appreciate if they also question your posts/tactics more closely, too.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 09:43 AM

Small point WAV....The Cittern (Baroque version) wouldn't even be noticed outdoors.....It's very quiet.
S'o P....Well said.
But you can't argue with him...I've seen his website, heard his music. Don't think he'll be headlining the Pyramid stage at Glastonbury (A Good English Festival if ever there was one!) anytime soon....
And not a "Good English Cittern" in sight.
I think we should just give up on this one. Changing his mindset is like trying to knit fog.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 11:57 AM

I'm recalling, R., a BBC documentary series, where historians were trying to farm according to 18th century technology; they had a visit from a period musician with a 10 wire-string English cittern, and I'm sure someone mentioned that it projected relatively well, as above.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 12:05 PM

"It is always nice to meet another recorder player. I'm going to use a theme by Handel which I found on the Mudcat (now known as 'Did you see my lady') for an offertory tomorrow at church. On an alto recorder." (Leeneia)...sounds good - an offertory on a "little organ" (Shakespeare, Hamlet).

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: s&r
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 05:42 PM

"I've been well into folk music since the spring of 2004"

Says it all really.

Sean's education is so much better than yours WAV. His posts are better researched, his knowledge greater, and his English so much better than you display..

Stu

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 07:55 PM

Shakespeare was perceptive. What is a pipe organ but many, many recorders turned upside down? With breath not from lungs but from a bellows?

Although there are certainly sizes of pipes which cannot be duplicated by recorder players, such as the one that causes the entire church to reverberate and the floor to undulate underfoot. Cool!

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:25 AM

Yes, L. - rather than lots of fipple pipes of varying length, recorder players vary the length of one with (sometimes tricky!) fingering. And, as with you, I really like the sound of both.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:49 AM

The general feeling is that Shakespeare wasn't meaning an organ as such, rather using the term simply to mean musical instrument. There is a modern English text HERE that says little instrument, and other notes (HERE) would support this. Maybe the confusion is brought about by Hamlet referring to the recorder holes as both ventages and stops, which serves to underline the metaphorical nature of the text, which doesn't lend itself to any sort of literal clarity as Hamlet is using the recorder to make a point which isn't in the least bit musical.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 12:19 PM

Hamlet: Why, look you now, how unworthy a thing you make of me! You
would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would
pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my
lowest note to the top of my compass; and there is much music,
excellent voice, in this little organ, yet cannot you make it
speak.

'Sblood, do you think I am easier to be play'd on than a
pipe? Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me,
you cannot play upon me.

[Enter Polonius.]
God bless you, sir!

=============
I believe Polonius' 'God bless you, sir!' is the Renaissance equivalent of the modern-day of the 'May I help you?' which is uttered in an icy tone with hooded lids.

In other words, he thinks Hamlet's nuts. Who wouldn't think so, confronted with so many frenzied metaphors?

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 12:42 PM

...and "stops" is almost certainly organ stops there - agreed now S.?

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jack Blandiver
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 12:59 PM

I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, WAV, simply reporting that it's almost certainly organ as in musical instrument. What's the problem? The study of musical instruments is organology. If someone in this day and age referred to their little organ we'd probably take pity on them; maybe this level of meaning is buried in Shakespeare's text too.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 02:07 PM

"And for the final time the Cittern is NOT AN ENGLISH INSTRUMENT...Geddit?"
- GUEST,Ralphie

Ralphie, most of what WAV blathers on about isn't English, as I posted elsewhere even the English language isn't English, there's just no telling WAV though, he's stuck inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues, Again...to quote Bob Dylan (who also isn't English *LOL*)

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Will Fly
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 02:13 PM

Charlotte - if you haven't seen them, there are previous other threads either posted by WAV (David Franks), or containing numerous posts by him, which propound the philosophy that we should be in thrall to an English "culture" that never actually existed.

David never answers a direct question with evidence from sources other than his own. He merely includes a link to his own previous writings on his website. It is pointless to expect a clear, direct, evidential answer from him to clear, direct questions posed by posters on these threads.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 02:18 PM

Will
I've had the questionable pleasure of reading WAV's other postings, like Guest Ralphie has said, why do I bother? *LOL*

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

who is also not English.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 03:56 PM

It's correct that Hamlet isn't actually talking about music. He is worried that someone wants him to talk, and talk unwisely. Unfortunately, he can't decide what instrument he is in the metaphor.


you would seem to know my stops; (organ)
you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; (stringed instrument, or maybe virginal)

you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass; (? anybody understand this one?)

and there is much music, excellent voice, in this little organ (organs come in many sizes)

yet cannot you make it speak. ( Could be a reference to the flute. I had a flute teacher who spoke of making the flute 'speak,' meaning to play a musical note.)

'Sblood, do you think I am easier to be play'd on than a
pipe? (must be as in 'pipe and drum.' Bagpipes are hard.)

Call me what instrument you will, though you can fret me,
you cannot play upon me. (lute or similar)
=============
No doubt the audience and actors revelled in all this word-play.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:34 PM

I've seen a TV production of Hamlet, L, and an actor had a recorder in hand.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 04:42 PM

Any musical instrument "speaks" when it is sounded. And both wind instruments and stringed instruments can be "stopped" in various ways to sound different pitches.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: M.Ted
Date: 24 Aug 09 - 11:51 PM

Incidentally, the ukulele is derived from the Portuguese braguinha, and, given that the traditional cittern is directly related to the Portuguese guitar--they are equally "English"--

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 01:54 AM

In other words M Ted..If I understand you correctly....They are both Portuguese!
Somehow I don't think that the facts are going to get in the way of WAVs increasingly bizarre notions...No doubt we'll find out later, when he regales us all with his encyclopedic knowledge of all things musical. Must say I can't wait!

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 03:25 AM

That's definitely over-simplistic, Ted and Guest, and, frankly, the following leans a bit that way, too - but less so ("wait" no more):

The lute evolved into several instruments in several lands - the mandolin in Italy, the bouzouki in Greece (which, pleasingly, the Greeks bore as musical-gifts during the Athens Olympics), the cittern in England, the balalaika in Russia, the guitar in Spain, eventually, the ukulele in Hawaii, etc. (All elements of our beautifully multicultural world, that's for sure.)

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 04:03 AM

Previous Guest was me sorry.
M Ted. What did I tell you? At least we've been spared the links to his site this time.
Still would like to know how he's going to get enough cittern players to fill the Albert Hall!
And anyway, who really cares where an instrument originated? Yes, there is some scholastic purpose for such a quest which is tangentially interesting, but, to me it's frankly immaterial. I play the instruments that I play. They could come from Iceland for all I care. But, if they sound good..I'll use them.
That to me is truly multicultural. Not some rose tinted spectacles version of village greens, Haywains, milkmaids. whatever. Even if they ever existed, all that is long gone, and will not return.
Mind you, one aspect of the idyllic rural eay of life seems to have survived...The village idiot!!

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: s&r
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 04:06 AM

WAV - about 90% of the posters on Mudcat are skilled musicians, musical technicians, teachers of music, musical historians. Many of them are formally qualified to a high level. Many are qualified to an equal or higher level by their own studies and researches.

These are the people who have taken you to task for some years now in an attempt to correct your mistaken ideas, as part of your education, and to disassociate Mudcat from your unschooled and unresearched ramblings (reading Wikipedia and listening to BBC radio don't count).

Apart from the friendship and social aspects of Mudcat this has become an international forum of things musical. Your postings are as irritating as graffiti in the Tate gallery or notes written all over the Library copy of the reference book.

Many people have extended a friendly helping hand to you, as to any newcomer. Sadly, you don't take advantage of this.

In your head you're a nice guy, well read, intelligent, fair minded, humanitarian, knowledgeable, artistic, musical etc. It should disturb you that either your ideas are so wrong as to require constant rebuttal and correction, or that your communication skills are inadequate to convey your ideas to the rest of us.

I live in hope


Stu

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 04:19 AM

In other words, Stu doesn't want positive English, Scottish, etc., nationalism.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:02 AM

'Did you see my lady'

I think WAV might mean Handel's Did you NOT hear my lady, more properly entitled Silent Worship though not of the sort manifestly suitable for a church service.

This tune has been recorded by Barry Dransfield (vocal + guitar) with two cellos and four violins overdubbed, a sublime example of a musician using what it takes to produce the required effect, regardless of the actual provenance of the instruments.

In a specific context, nationalism with a view to self-determination is one thing. Instruments are not, however, gunboats.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: s&r
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:13 AM

Oh Go On WAV. Take me through the tortuous logic that leads you to your las post from my last post.

I think it probably demonstrates a lack of reading comprehension.

How did you pass your fork lift truck course when the instruction manual is so difficult?

Stu

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:33 AM

Stu - I did a fork lift course in case, when employed as a production manager or supervisor, the fork lift driver (whose work does involve a considerable amount of concentration and skill, yes?) is away. And, speaking of "concentration" and being "away," frankly, I've no idea what The Borchester Echo is on about re. "my lady"; but, as for "Instruments are not, however, gunboats"...they have been, though, use for signals, motivation, etc. in battles (whether or not we agree with those battles).

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 05:45 AM

Did you NOT hear my lady / Silent Worship

Just to be absolutely clear:

(1) You got the title completely wrong
(2) It's about a bloke ogling a woman singing in the garden
(3) BD performs it using three "non-English" instruments.

It's an entirely non-nationalistic, secular theme and it is irrelevant which instruments are used so long as the arrangement works MUSICALLY.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:04 AM

I never mentioned such a title, TBE - I have, however, occasionally got a nickname/name wrong here on Mudcat, and I think that's what you have just done..?

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:36 AM

Give us a break WAV. You announced yourself that you were going to play Did you hear my lady (sic) on alto recorder in church. Why was unclear.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:45 AM

That was Leeneia, Echo - and how did it go, by the way, L?

(If this was a comedy sketch, I think it would be going quite well!)

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: s&r
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:50 AM

Eat your heart out WAV listen to a singer

Stu

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: s&r
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 06:58 AM

If this were WAV - subjunctive...

Stu

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 07:02 AM

From: WalkaboutsVerse - PM
Date: 23 Aug 09 - 12:05 PM

It is always nice to meet another recorder player. I'm going to use a theme by Handel which I found on the Mudcat (now known as 'Did you see my lady') for an offertory . . . blah blah . . .

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: s&r
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 07:06 AM

This is the WAV copy/paste technique - the original post was someone else's (Leenia). It's hard to keep up with his copy/pasting sometimes

Stu

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 07:08 AM

It is. And what's the bleedin' point of trying?

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 07:08 AM

Echo: if you scroll back and check, as sure as eggs are eggs, you will find that I put "(Leeneia)" after a quote, in quotation marks, by Leeneia (a fellow recorder/English flute player), before "..." and my own words.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 10:12 AM

Oh Walkie, you have pierced me to the heart! Surely you don't think I said 'blah blah' ?!    :)

To tell you the truth, I chickened out on 'Did you see my lady.' I felt it would last too long and it required the packing of another instrument. So I played a Norwegian hymn, 'In Heaven Above,' on the soprano instead. It's a jaunty tune and it went well as people shook hands and greeted one another.

Here's what I took:

guitar
guitar tuner
guitar pick
guitar neck strap
soprano recorder in bag
hymnal
copy of 'In Heaven Above' made on Noteworthy
special spectacles
bottle of lukewarm water
check for offering
cell phone


All this to participate in a service whose point is to meditate on the eternal verities and leave this busy world behind. So perhaps you can see why I didn't feel like packing another instrument.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 11:16 AM

Is it just me? or is Wav talking to himself now??
He's certainly not communicating with the living.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 11:34 AM

And anyway, to get back to the original topic of this thread. The Ukes were Brill. Wav.. The Uke Ork of GB have more talent between them than you could ever dream about with your "Good English Cittern"......Oh by the way apropos of nothing...Do you actually own a "Good English Cittern?".. Can you play one?...Indeed have you ever seen one? I own One...I can Play one...And I mainly use it for middle eastern music..Oh, what a swine I am...Should be playing Dowland...Take him off to the gallows immediately.

Quite honestly mate, and with a heart full of sorrow. You are really out of your depth here. You plainly have no idea of the subjects that you preach about. I wonder what vicarious (look it up) joy you get with your incessant ramblings.
You have been offered years of advice for information on various topics. All ignored. I'm beginning to wonder for your sanity. I'd go and seek professional help.
This is is not a joke.

We've all treated you like a clown over the past few years, and you keep coming back for more. I'm as guilty as anyone.
So, Mate..Go and seek some advice about your problem. And when you get it sorted, you will be welcomed back by your former adversaries with open arms.
It's up to you. But, carry on as you have done, and you will get eaxactly the same treatment...(Thinks..That is maybe what you want anyway?)
Whatever. Good Luck with the therapy, and we'll see you on the other side.
Ralph

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 12:10 PM

Ralphie: e.g., several English folk clubs of the 50s and 60s DID have a perform-your-own-culture rule - are you saying they were also "insane", or are you just getting a tad carried away with the mention of Hamlet?

Leeneia: you could have "pierced...to the heart" your meditative cong. with "God be in my head" (Davies; Pynson) on the your soprano recorder...but perhaps that would have been a tad brief, and a tad risque for likes of Ralphie.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 01:56 PM

"Is it just me? or is Wav talking to himself now??
He's certainly not communicating with the living."
- GUEST,Ralphie

No Ralphie it's not just you, I've had this feeling, for a while now, that WAV is communicating with the dead/mythical. Even they're getting bored!

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

memo to the office: the cittern isn't bloody ENGLISH!!

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 02:23 PM

The point of the thread - and I was the originator of it - was that the sound of the Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain, plus the 1,000 ukes brought in by the Promenaders, was a wonderfully joyous musical moment. and what could be more "English" (as well as other things) than the Promenade Concerts?

One of the things that WAV has never, ever explained to us, in all his numerous posts, is precisely why separate musical environments - separate musical traditions in separate countries - are a GOOD THING.

WAV - say WHY. What is essentially better about such a state of affairs than the present musical environment? I can pick and mix music from all over the world without losing my identity, my heritage or my love and knowledge of English traditional music. So what's the advantage of your viewpoint? Please explain. If you can.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 02:28 PM

"the Ukulele Orchestra of Great Britain, plus the 1,000 ukes brought in by the Promenaders"
-Will Fly

any idea on a release date for the Prom DVD, Will?

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Will Fly
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 02:40 PM

No idea, Ollie B - but I shall keep a lookout for it. I saw them in Dorking last year - wondrous stage performance.

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 02:49 PM

Just checked the UOGB official website and found this:

"PROMS DVD
We filmed the whole Proms performance and are currently producing a DVD that you will be able to buy only from our website. Please join our mailing list by clicking here and we will send you and email when it becomes available"

I've just signed up.

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: Jamming With Ollie Beak (inactive)
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 02:57 PM

Just found this as well:

Ukulelescope

Charlotte Olivia Robertson (Ms)

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: M.Ted
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 03:03 PM

WAV, you're the one who oversimplified--not me. You'll never learn anything about music, or instruments, if all you do is cut and paste.

The English cittern that you champion, but have obviously never seen, much less played, is, or was, pretty much identical to the Portuguese guitar (why this is true is the subject of spirited debate, among people who care about such things) whereas, the modern, Steven Sobell-type cittern is a cross between a mandolin and a bouzouki.


The great man has, in fact, suggested that his instrument be called the "Irish Cittern"--So your are talking about making an Italian/Greek/Irish instrument the centerpiece of an
English cultural revival--

Subject: RE: 1008 ukuleles at the Albert Hall
From: WalkaboutsVerse
Date: 25 Aug 09 - 04:49 PM

"without losing my identity, my heritage or my love and knowledge of English traditional music." (Will)...as I just posted on the RIV thread, the last Durham Folk Party (all unaccompanied) singaround i attended was both traditional and enjoyable, but, at 43, I was probably the youngest there.

"One of the things that WAV has never, ever explained to us, in all his numerous posts, is precisely why separate musical environments - separate musical traditions in separate countries - are a GOOD THING." (Will)...I've said it LOTS of times - because I love our world being multicultural, and I'm sure positive nationalism (WITHOUT imperialism and conquest) is the best and most peaceful way forward for humanity.

And Ted: I have, e.g., mentioned a few times watching a BBC series, where hands-on historians, trying to farm according to 18th century technology, were visited by a period musician with a 10 wire-string English cittern, which he said would have been plucked with a feather plectrum.