BS: Created in the image of God

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: josepp
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 06:42 PM

Whether memes are real or not, it's a useful exercise. Beliefs are memes that jump from host to host. You don't make up memes, memes are simply here and you adopt them, so to speak.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:11 PM

josepp,

Someone makes up the memes. Someone always makes up (of dreams up) the stories that becomes myths. I've read Joesph Campbell too.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:15 PM

What difference does the word "Whim" make. I've witnessed people on an acid trip changed beliefs. I've seen people change beliefs watching Michael Moore. Hell Roger and Me changed some of my beliefs about corporations. People change beliefs based on TV ads and the deaths of their dogs. Is that "whim" enough for you.

People can and do change their beliefs every day. Whim shwim.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:16 PM

josepp,

Someone makes up the memes. Someone always makes up (OR dreams up) the stories that becomes myths. I've read Joesph Campbell too.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: josepp
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:25 PM

////Someone makes up the memes.////

No, in memetics, memes aren't made up. They are like parasites in search of hosts. There are always more memes than there are brains to host them so the memes are in fierce competition--looking for the first advantage to move in and set up shop.

////Someone always makes up (OR dreams up) the stories that becomes myths. I've read Joesph Campbell too.////

Myths aren't made up. They are handed down. As far back as you go, they are always there. It's like asking who was the first person to depict the heavens. We don't know. We've always been doing it. That's why older cultures refer to an Age of Heroes in our ancient past. Someone started it but it was someone far wiser than us who, for whatever reason, are no longer here.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 07:44 PM

>>>No, in memetics, memes aren't made up. They are like parasites in search of hosts. There are always more memes than there are brains to host them so the memes are in fierce competition--looking for the first advantage to move in and set up shop.<<<

Let me tell you something Earth shattering Joe. It will be especially, especially Earth shattering to one with as fine honed a BullShit detector as your self. Richard Dawkins is a BullShitter, and everything he said about memes being self replicating ideas without people is BullShit. In fairness to him, it can be described as thought experiment. But from your point of view, it is certainly BullShit, because it duped you into make that silly statement which essentially means that that ideas in society make themselves up.

I am sure that Campbell wasn't Bull Shitting you Joe. You apparently are not a careful reader. I am pretty sure that he never said that no one ever makes up myths and that those who do were in any way superior beings. He did say a lot about myths being a product of our psychology, leading to similar myths in separate cultures, but he also celebrated the storyteller in the creation of these myths implying that the myths all started with someone telling a story.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 08:31 PM

I'm having a hard time keeping score here. Would you guys type a little slower? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 09:06 PM

the guy who says that ideas make themselves up and then inflict themselves on people is losing.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: number 6
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 10:09 PM

"the guy who says that ideas make themselves up and then inflict themselves on people is losing."

No shit !

biLL   .... :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: josepp
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 10:16 PM

////Let me tell you something Earth shattering Joe. It will be especially, especially Earth shattering to one with as fine honed a BullShit detector as your self. Richard Dawkins is a BullShitter, and everything he said about memes being self replicating ideas without people is BullShit. In fairness to him, it can be described as thought experiment. But from your point of view, it is certainly BullShit, because it duped you into make that silly statement which essentially means that that ideas in society make themselves up.////

I made clear from the beginning that memes are a good exercise whether they are real or not. Not reading other people's responses thoroughly, are we? That's what generally happens when you get angry and you generally get angry when you know you were bullshitting and got called on it. You clearly never studied the meme theory very closely.

////I am sure that Campbell wasn't Bull Shitting you Joe. You apparently are not a careful reader. I am pretty sure that he never said that no one ever makes up myths and that those who do were in any way superior beings. He did say a lot about myths being a product of our psychology, leading to similar myths in separate cultures, but he also celebrated the storyteller in the creation of these myths implying that the myths all started with someone telling a story.////

I don't know what Campbell says. I've never actually read anything by him although I'm sure he's a worthwhile read. Let me explain something earth-shattering to you, Joe: Campbell isn't they only guy who writes about myths. There's Gerald Massey, there's G.R.S. Mead, there's Alvin Boyd Kuhn, there's Joscelyn Godwin, there's Albert Churchward, there's Jordan Maxwell. I like to cover my bases rather than put all the eggs in one basket.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:26 PM

Memes are ideas. Of course they exist. They aren't "parasites" looking for hosts. Of course there are more ideas than brains. Brains can and do hold many more than one idea. And no I haven't "studied" meme theory closely. But can you guess why? Because it is BULLSHIT!!!! I don't study BullShit. I don't have to. But you should continue your studies. You have much to learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,F.N Pranny
Date: 29 Jun 11 - 11:33 PM

" Joe: Campbell isn't they only guy who writes about myths. There's Gerald Massey, there's G.R.S. Mead, there's Alvin Boyd Kuhn, there's Joscelyn Godwin, there's Albert Churchward, there's Jordan Maxwell. "

I haven't read any of them.
But I probably haven't mythed much...

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 12:33 AM

Now here is a BullShitter!!

James Churchward

According to Churchward, Mu "extended from somewhere north of Hawaii to the south as far as the Fijis and Easter Island." He claimed Mu was the site of the Garden of Eden and the home of 64,000,000 inhabitants - known as the Naacals. Its civilization, which flourished 50,000 years before Churchward's day, was technologically more advanced than his own, and the ancient civilizations of India, Babylon, Persia, Egypt and the Mayas were merely the decayed remnants of its colonies.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 12:37 AM

>>Campbell isn't they only guy who writes about myths. There's Gerald Massey, there's G.R.S. Mead, there's Alvin Boyd Kuhn, there's Joscelyn Godwin, there's Albert Churchward, there's Jordan Maxwell. I like to cover my bases rather than put all the eggs in one basket. <<

Fair enough, Show me a quote from any one of them supporting this nonsense.

>>Myths aren't made up. They are handed down. As far back as you go, they are always there. It's like asking who was the first person to depict the heavens. We don't know. We've always been doing it. That's why older cultures refer to an Age of Heroes in our ancient past. Someone started it but it was someone far wiser than us who, for whatever reason, are no longer here. <<

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 12:45 AM

Maybe
this is the answer.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Steamin' WIllie
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 03:58 AM

Hey Joe;

You never make links that are wide of the mark my friend. I was just referring to the fact that three Mudcatters share an IP occasionally..

Little Hawk;

I laughed when I read it, I never take anything in a bad way. The Mr Fluids is more to do with a rather disturbing website M'Unlearned Friend went on for whatever reason he has, and found a rather disgusting sexual act which was referred to as a steamin' willie. I hadn't heard of it, but he obviously had and just to show his lack of inhibitions called me Mr Fluids as either a compliment or insult, I don't know (or care) which.

Anyway.... back to how we were created. Ewan McColl reckoned I was created with "Five steel ribs and an iron backbone, teeth that can cut through rock and black stone, working my time away in the mine, go down."

Sounds good to me, and equally plausible to anything else I have ever read.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 04:08 AM

Aw, shucks, Willie, that's a nice thing to say.
My indignation above, of course, was feigned.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 10:07 AM

I love feigned indignation. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 11:10 AM

The memes of current Christianity compared to the original Christian ideas are like wine flavored Kool Aid compared to a fine wine.

The original christian teachings included a profound concept that, " God became man so that man could someday become God." That is both social and cosmic enlightenment, that is if you really think the idea through.

Today after all the all male power and wealth hungry councils as well as fundamentalist Protestant rewrites on what to ban and what to make up in the bible, people are left with junk food and Judeo/Egyptian left overs for the spirit.

The Tao of Physics, ancient Buddism and Indian texts expand the memes of the living texture of the universe resembling truths of the greater universe. Sometiomes they are humorous. Using math I discovered the fractal equation that produces an elephant shaped creature that anyone would recognize. The image of creatures obeys universal laws or if you prefer "local ordinances".

I am surprised that no one has brought up mirror dualism or the male and female aspects of the universe.

What the F happened, did the monotheists compromise with the dualists and came up with a trinity? Meanwhile the Hindu are perfectly satisfied with hundreds of deities as well as deity within ourselves.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 01:17 PM

Right on, Donuel!

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Stringsinger
Date: 30 Jun 11 - 07:15 PM

Richard Feynman: "Those who think they know about quantum mechanics,
don't understand quantum mechanics."

Made in the image of god? Which one? The christian one? or the Islamic one?
or the Jewish one? or the hindu one? or the scientology one?

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 11:47 AM

All images you are aware of are produced in your own mind and recognized as such by your own nervous system. They all come from the same source. It doesn't matter if YOU think that source is the Christian God, the Jewish God, the Buddhist concept, the Hindu concept or the traditional Native American Great Spirit concept or anything else. That's just your chosen cultural way of looking at it, but it's all the same source, and it's within you. And it's equally within everyone else (although they may use different words to label it). And you can't go anywhere to get away from it. You will call it whatever you decide to call it, and that's usually determined by your culture, your family upbringing, etc. It pre-existed the physical you, and it will still be around long after you pass on from this mortal coil, and there's not a danged thing you can do about it. ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 09:33 PM

I love Feynman! Another great lost through puritanism...

I do wish that when people were being inclusive and saying "people of all faiths" they would add "and none" - just 2 little syllables and you actually include everybody, without lumping the faithless with the faithful.

Blair did it in his just-after-9/11 speech, and I was impressed.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Jul 11 - 09:53 PM

Everyone has faith in something. If you use the word "faith" to only mean faith in the tenets of an organized religion, I think you are misusing it, and not giving recognition to your own forms of faith...meaning: all the stuff you routinely take for granted and rely upon without having had either proof or direct experience of it.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 04:58 PM

I use faith to mean "belief in the absence of evidence" - things about which there is evidence, I don't have faith in, I can conclude about.

You don't need to have this kind of faith in anything at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 05:36 PM

Uh-huh. I know what you mean...but the world is full of people who belong to no organized religion whatsoever, who are actively hostile TO organized religion on principle, and who yet will swallow anything that their M.D., their government, various people in the the science community, their news reporters, and various other supposed civil "authorities" tell them...and without having personally seen one shred of real evidence firsthand. They take it on external authority, NOT on observation or understanding of the evidence.

They have blind faith in the word of certain others, and they look no farther than that. That's exactly the same problem many people in organized religions have, and it indicates an equal level of faith and naivete in either case. You know what it really is? It's conformity. It's the behaviour of sheep. It is the naive trust that Big Brother (whether he is a priest, a doctor, a scientist, a military commander, or a politician) knows best, and if they simply follow what he tells them they will be safe and secure.

Religion is only one of a great many commonly established ways of leading the faith-based down the garden path to what they know not.

I agree that we do not need to have faith in things about which there is no evidence. And we do not need to categorically believe so-called "evidence" which has emanated solely from statements by other people who have told us that it IS evidence. They may be incorrect. They may be biased. They may be dispensing propaganda. They may be looking to orchestrate a war or land a lucrative contract for their research facility. They may simply be mistaken in their interpretation of the evidence they have gathered.

Neither do we need to categorically disbelieve things which we have no evidence against....but plenty of religious and non-religious and anti-religious people do that here loudly and frequently. They categorically deny many possibilities that they have no evidence against. Why? Because it suits their kneejerk prejudices, that's why. They want things to be a certain way, therefore they choose to disbelieve all kinds of stuff that they have no evidence against (but just don't like), and they believe all kinds of stuff that they have no evidence for (but just like).

That is a stupid attitude, in either case. It doesn't involve thought, it involves an instantaneous reaction based on one's past prejudices, not on evidence.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: gnu
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 05:39 PM

I am fuckin lost. God help me.

I mean... in this discussion. Otherwise, I am cool.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Stringsinger
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 07:01 PM

LH, as we evolve as a species, the notion of a god might change.

I also use the word "faith" to imply addiction. Addictions have been known to
change the physiology of the brain.

It's possible that believing in Santa Claus doesn't hurt others. OTOH what does
it do to an adult who still believes?

Believing is cheap. Anyone can do it. But proving something to be scientifically
accurate is much more difficult and far more useful.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 07:48 PM

Proving something to be accurate by ANY practical means whatsoever is much more difficult and far more useful than just "believing" in it because someone else told you to...and I highly recommend seeking such direct proof for yourself...and listening to MANY viewpoints, not just the officially sanctioned viewpoint of your day. Scientific means are one of several ways to prove that something is accurate, but they aren't the only way. One way you can prove something for yourself, for example, is to DO it or experience it or witness it and use your own powers of observation. You can do that whether or not you are a scientist. People need to learn to trust themselves, not just rely blindly on secondhand information from high and mighty hierarchical authorities such as churches, governments, news services, intelligence agencies, medical authorities, and other professional authority figures. Every society is ruled by such authorities, both religious and secular. Most people trust them blindly...and are often misled by them for a variety of reasons.

In other words, "if you want somebody you can trust, trust yourself" - Bob Dylan

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 09:05 PM

Well, it may be the devil or it may be the Lord
But you're gonna have to serve somebody

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jul 11 - 10:32 PM

Yes, indeedy! ;-)

You can serve nothing but your own short-sighted and greedy self-interest (as is done by the owners of many profit-seeking enterprises, and by many governments, and by a good many churches)...or you can serve the common good of all, as is done by some others. And that's the dividing line between good and evil consequences. Dylan put it in biblical terms in that song. I put it in more secular terms, but it is both a moral and a spiritual issue of great significance, in my opinion.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Big Ballad Singer
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 12:34 PM

What if God was one of us?

Seriously, I've never understood why people can't just settle for the idea that "God" matters when "God" makes a difference to YOU, not as the cure-all for everyone ELSE'S problems.

Bibles (or Qurans or whatevers), prayer, worship, good deeds... all these things are PRODUCTS of faith, which by definition cannot be defended or explained empirically.

Let the "fact" (so-called) that you or I or ANYTHING is "created in the image of God" motivate YOU to make YOUR decisions a certain way, and you'll never have to worry about that one little piece of the universe being "right with God". You can seize your own little bit of ground for faith and "God" and "truth", and make that one place a bastion of righteousness, but you simply can't enforce belief or ask anyone else to adhere to what is ultimately a unique and individual worldview.

Even people who supposedly share the "same faith" (i.e. fellow Christians or Muslims or whoever) will never experience "God" the exact same way.

The big dichotomy exists between agreeing to the same STATEMENTS or RULES about "God" and actually EXPERIENCING somewhat of the Divine presence. Lots of people can sign a "statement of faith" or what-have-you, but that doesn't make the "facts" about God any more uniform or definable than a speed limit sign and some lines make everyone drive the same way at the same speed all the time.

"Hast thou faith? Have it between thyself and God."

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 02:44 PM

I have faith in life. It provides everything that is needed, including challenge. You step in at birth. You step out at death. In between those 2 crossings, everything is provided.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,999 I just found religion.
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 02:47 PM

I googled God in Google Images and this is what came up.

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTX0E4W0iz_JDbgfGIddWFRG6qm2yKysdindL5LUPmDFBqu8iHyWA

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 04:55 PM

Neato. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 07:58 PM

Gnu. You have probably seen Hindu people greet each over with hands together and bpw slightly. That custom is the observance of the God nature in the other person you are greeting.

What God wualities do you have? Well if you find a little fish that has become stranded in a tidal sand bar puddle, and you then take your foot and dredge a little channel for water to connect the fish to the main body of water...you are a God to that fish.

You can be a vengeful or a caring God. You can call people here insane perverts for having an idea you do not understand or misunderstood and wou will have an effect on that person. Or you can respectfully disagree or ask for clarification with respect and you will have a different effect on theat person.

Free will is your expression of your god like powers in the sphere of influence you posess. Unless you are Q you can not change the cosmological conastants in the Universe to achieve some desired result, but you can smile and encourage someone else who is along on the voyage of discovering thier influence on the world in shich they are actually fledgling gods. Even if it is only for one little fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 08:57 PM

You know if you arbitrarily change the meaning of words, especially words like "God", conversation becomes meaningless.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Donuel
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 09:48 PM

IF the most meaningful thing you hear is the parroting back of your own words, opinions and dogma you will probably never learn anything new and self knowledge will retreat from your grasp.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 03 Jul 11 - 10:10 PM

Meaning can always be found in another's words if you bother to try and understand them. If all you want to do is score some kind of point on them (fight little ego wars, in other words) then you probably will have neither the patience, the inclination nor the good intentions to even bother trying to understand them.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:11 AM

Meaning can be found in the words of others. So can BullShit. Meaning is certainly easier to find when standard vocabulary is used.

A person who digs a trench for a fish is a helpful person, not a god. Perhaps one might say that compassion or karma is involved. Fish have no concept of God. I guess it could work as a metaphor, but for what? There are no "Godlike powers", there is only a person moving a foot.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 07:20 AM

I guess if you could see all of God, with just these eyes, I guess you could make the call as what God would look like....but, being as you can't..let's make it up...even give Him a political party to belong to...even say it isn't so, and pretend to know something! Ah, the wonders of old folkies! Come, sing 'Kumbayah', and sing it like Neil Young, and maybe you can get yourself to believe...well just about anything!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: GUEST,Robby the Cod fish
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:09 PM

"Fish have no concept of God"

Oh yeah, That's what you think.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Donuel
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:16 PM

Saving a little fish from certain death is an example. One could just as easily stomp it to death. The sceario only serves as an allororical example.

To the fish, you are a god. The act may go un noticed by the fish but none the less a miracle has been performed to allow the fish to live. Perspective requires you to think outside yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:23 PM

It is not a miracle. It is just a foot a fish. The fish does consider miracles. The is just a fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:24 PM

The fish is just a fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 12:56 PM

JtS had it right: "You know if you arbitrarily change the meaning of words, especially words like "God", conversation becomes meaningless"

There's even a technical term for it in Philosophy. It is called Equivocation

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:10 PM

It is...for you...whatever you decide to believe it is, Jack. Allow that freedom to decide what to believe for other people too, and we're in a position where we can respect one another and not just quickly label someone else's thinking as "bullshit" just because it doesn't dovetail perfectly with our own thinking.

There are innumerable ways of seeing and defining "God". Yours isn't the only one. It isn't the only "right" one. It's one of many possible ones. And there is no reason why people should not be free to find many unique ways of defining what "God" means to them.

Freedom of thought is essential in order to have a free society. Agreed? Given freedom of thought, we will find many ways to describe what the concept "God" means to us, whether we believe in it or not, and if so, what that belief (or disbelief) involves.

Donuel's example is perfectly understandable. You don't have to agree with it, but neither do you have any justifiable reason to call it "bullshit", just because it doesn't match your familiar view of things.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Mrrzy
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:17 PM

To a fish you are not a god, you are either prey or predator. And if neither, you are nothing.

That's why I'm not against early abortion - at that stage, all you're getting rid of is a fish.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Bill D
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 01:34 PM

"And there is no reason why people should not be free to find many unique ways of defining what "God" means to them."

Except that so many people intend that their personal definition should be the one accepted by others. It is a bit different than defining 'antique' or 'large' ...or 'folk'. There can be disputes over those, but seldom wars waged over them.

My opinion is that within a specific discussion, the word 'God' needs to have an agreed on definition or, as JtS said, conversation becomes quite awkward, if not meaningless. I suppose it is possible to just have a discussion OF the idea of 'personal concepts of God', but that is not the usual thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Created in the image of God
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 04 Jul 11 - 02:12 PM

If Donuel is free to call a simple act of rather pointless kindness and expression of Godly qualities, why am I not free to say that is BullShit?

It is all in the context. I would use his example to point out the opposite of Godliness. A child at that sandbar might think he or she was playing God. An adult at that sandbar would think of how many fish wash up on all the sandbars of the world at any one time and realize how small that one little act is. A bear, or a hungry person is going to see that fish and think Food! Is the being that eats the fish Satan to that fish? I think not.

The fish, being a fish, is not contemplating God. The fish has no sense of creation or deliverance or good or evil. The fish is just going to keep flopping around until it finds water, or death.