TTCM: We don't give a flying f

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: wysiwyg
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 02:54 PM

Homeless,

I would just ask you to consider that a large number of intelligent, caring people were moved to continue communicating over these matters with you... and that it is very likely that others read all of this with great interest but did not post... and that many of these issues will continue to be reflected upon by a large percentage of these people.

What you have said here may have more eventual impact than it might feel like based on the actual written responses. You see you made all of your points so... cogently, that they will now be part of the common culture of the people who are the Mudcat right now... which now includes you... and which is a new creation every day as well as a result of its past selves.

So... give it time. Give it time, for you to sink into us and for us to sink into you until there is no you and us, just a bigger us... by which time there will be more new folks in need of a helping hand. And you'll be an old habd of some 6 weeks' membership who tries to use whatever wisdom or caring or knowledge you have to make the best use of this place as possible. Which is what we all do.

And you know what? The kind of interaction people need is so completely varied... you can use your sensitivity to discover what kinds of interaction various people here want, and what kind you want, and go with that! You can be proactive about it. You can start things the way you want to start them and stick with them to lend them the air you think they should have.

It seems REAL strange to say this to someone who chose the name Homeless-- but hey. MAKE YOURSELF AT HOME, mi casa su casa, maybe you have a home here... all of that stuff.

~Susan~

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 04:22 PM

This business of people apologising when they've gone over the top, or whatever, is a new develiopment here, at least in the time I've been visiting (since September, I think). I like it, and it's already done a lot to restore civility. Of course the few really offensive people don't apologise, but you wouldn't expect them to.

Anyway, thanks Homeless, and I echo Praise's comments.

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: MMario
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 04:28 PM

Homeless, it's been a good thread. Opinions will, as opinions are wont to do, run the complete spectrum.

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Caitrin
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 09:01 PM

I can take some good-natured teasing. I'm used to that. Like Ebbie, I've grown up in a family where people tease all the time, and I've had to learn the hard way when to keep my mouth shut. (Of course, I still mess up every now and then.) However, I don't think there's any excuse for the rudeness that occasionally crops up. Direct flaming and insults are completely uncalled for. I may not like what another poster says, but that does not give me the right to verbally evicerate him or her. I think Dan's suggestion of not posting anything you wouldn't say to someone's face has definite merit.

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: The Beanster
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 10:09 PM

This thread has grown like a weed since I first checked on it! LOL Interesting stuff.

Homeless is my pal. A few weeks back when I chastised someone for being too "touchy," Homeless was very helpful in giving me another perspective regarding this person's reply and ever since then, I've been much more tolerant of folks whose posts I perceive to be "uncivil" or bordering on that. I think Homeless values harmony and I believe that's an admirable trait.

Anyway, as I've seen in my (limited) experience here, the printed word can come across as very hard-edged and sometimes, it's not meant that way at all. Sometimes, it is meant that way but we all know there are bitter, narcissistic a..holes among us (very few, IMO) and the best remedy for someone seeking negative attention is to pay NO attention.

I don't think this subject needs to be drummed into the ground this way and I, for one, have (or at least should have) (lol) better things to do than to contribute to it but I appreciate the opportunity to do just that. I may step on people's toes sometimes (as we all may) but members of the same community should forgive each other's short-comings. After all, these are not capital crimes, here.

The motto I adopted at 5-years-old is: do unto others as you would have them do unto you. I don't always succeed but I try to keep that in mind always/all ways. So there's my bit of drivel for this evening. :)

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 10:24 PM

Part of the problem relates to the Original Cliche of the western novel/movie, as first stated in Owen Wister's The Virginian:

"When you call me that, smile!"

On the internet, not only does no one know that you're a dog, no one can tell if you're smiling or not. So things not intended as insults get taken wrongly. Unless you love putting little smileys in your text (which I find rather inane) you have to be very careful not to say anything you don't want taken literally.

This is something I trip up on often, since I tend to use a lot of sarcasm - gently intended sarcasm, but sarcasm - in real-world speech. I assume others have the same problem.

Peter.

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: The Beanster
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 10:42 PM

Midchuck Peter,

If you'll notice, I put a smiley in my text right above yours. (!) heheheee I agree, they are inane and juvenile--sort of like dotting your i's with little hearts or something. That's why I keep saying there should be a special font to be used for good-natured teasing or sarcasm. Many unintentionally hurt feelings would be spared. I too, am sarcastic in real life and sometimes I'll type something into the response box, read it back and to someone who doesn't know me from a hole in the wall, it would sound awful. So I backspace and clean up my act. Pain in the neck. But as you say, one does have to be careful...

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Kelida
Date: 29 Mar 00 - 11:06 PM

I'm new here, but I have found the Mudcat very helpful and informative. My first post was a lyrics request (I think it was, anyway) and it was responded to with links to lyrics for that song as well as links to sound files for it, and I thought this was sufficient.

However, that was basically what I was asking for. It was a straightforward question that recieved straightforward answers. I recieved the information that I wanted with the least amount of trouble possible. I think the responses you recieve depend on the question you ask and the way you ask it.

If I asked a question about songwriting, I would expect posts to be more lengthy perhaps or at least more chatty depending on what exactly the question was. A certain amount of BS (loosely used term in this case) is expected in a "chatty" answer, but if people are joking in their response it should be obvious, and they should probably also include a serious answer.

On the respect thing--

In my opinion, respect is a really subjective topic. Obviously, what some people consider respect may not be taken the same by other people.

My best friend and I sometimes taunt each other mercilessly, but I would never act that way with someone I haven't known for almost 10 years and I would certainly never act that way to an adult.

The problem is that there is no way to judge what may or may not be considered offensive by people. This carries over to all aspects of society. Most notable is the sexual harassment taking place in workplaces everywhere. "Sensitivity training" teaches that even the simple act of asking someone out on a date may be sexual harassment.

On the internet, this is even harder to judge. Some people are offended by curse words, but others are offended by a sarcastic or joking comment that is taken the wrong way. There is just no way of telling.

I think the best advice to use is to get to know people before joking or being even gently sarcastic with them. Don't say anything you wouldn't say to someone's face, and definitely don't say anything that you know might offend people.

Respectfully, Keli

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 03:33 AM

I'm with you here, homeless, the points you mention are the ones that annoy me too.
As for TTCM, I'm sure (s)he's a regular in disguise. I do not at all like the way (s)he makes a point or (ab)uses the language, but (s)he's obviously annoyed by a too large number of BS postings (as I am), for the posters (s)he singles out for flames are those with an extremely low music-to-BS ratio in their postings.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: toogan
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:01 AM

Oh please Mudcatters - TTCM is just stirring the possum. Let's just ignore it - as we say in Oz, don't get your knickers in a knot. On a serious note - I also subscribe to a list called "vocalist.org" which focusses on "classical" singing. Many times I don't read a lot of the posts on it because there are a lot of wanky type people writing "I don't think this question/comment whatever should be on this list because we are dedicated to......etc." and using lots of smiley symbols to finish nasty comments. I go to the Mudcat site in relief thinking - sensible or silly, at least it's honest and tolerant. Please don't change!

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: toogan
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:11 AM

I couldn't be bothered reading all of the postings on this issue, but could I suggest that there is a bit of stirring the possum happening here? I hope Mudcatters don't get bogged down in this silliness. I also subscribe to another forum called "vocalist.org" which is for "classical"singers. Go visit this one to see how people can get bogged down in their egos,discussing whether or not certain topics should be listed, ending their nasty comments with silly symbols :) which are supposed to take the sting out of their comment. I agree with one of the mudcatters, that you shouldn't write what you wouldn't dare say face to face. I love the Forum, I enjoy the humour, genuine goodwill displayed, and the silliness at times.

So, don't get your knickers in a knot gang!

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: Chet W.
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 07:23 AM

Every time this sort of thing comes up I feel like I'm back in elementary school. To the angry ones above, enjoy, and do let us know who gets the most cookies!

Chet

Subject: RE: TTCM: WE DON'T GIVE A FLYING F
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Mar 00 - 05:32 PM

TTCM,

Regarding you message in the other thread.

I have no desire to debate with you. I would however welcome an opportunity to discuss a number of matters that appear to interest you greatly.

Speaking of interest-- isn't it INTERESTING that you use a phrase nearly identical to one I used, to communicate exactly the same concept, toward someone who flamed me in a personal message awhile back????

So we are in agreement that whatever discourse occurs will be in the open. Good. I welcome it.

To hold up your end, however, you're going to need to lose some stereotypes. Oh I'm sure there are MANY that DO apply to me, but you see you have picked the wrongest ones possible!!! If you knew me, in fact, we'd probably end up as running buddies! LOL.

Well I hope you'll write. Flames and all, if that is your choice. But out here, as you've said.

~Susan~