Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Penny S. Date: 23 Feb 03 - 08:16 AM Which, I believe, they don't. One is one and all alone, and ever more shall be so. Song link. Penny |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Neighmond Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:43 AM God is my father, and Jesus my savior. That being said, I think the powers that be (so called) ought to read The Revelation of Saint John the Devine(Last book in the new testiment). Therein, they are told to worship at home and not make a Public issue of it. If I want to testify to God's glory, I can find as many revivals and church services as I wish in no time. That is because there are many, many Churches who are in the business of salvation, and the related arts. Our government is in the business of running a country, and must never handle matters ecclesiastical, it is illegal for them to do so. As such, the very act of "my" government (I pay their saleries, along with all of my fellow citizens-so we own them) imposing an unfunded mandate reguarding something clearly out of their line of work is an insult to me and all of my brethren. I, for one, refuse to have my name associated with those who would legislate the use of my God's name as though it were their right to do so. Furthermore, by illegally ordering the placement of God's name in schools and public places, they smear God's good name, by making some folks believe that all Christians are like the minority who force their will upon others, without reguard to the teachings of God and all of his prophets. A true Cristian never forces his Christian will upon others, but rather sets an example for others to willingly follow, should they wish, for all salvation (of any faith) derives from grace and nothing else. The placement of God's name in these places may also unfairly prompt people of other beliefs to do things (civil disobedience things, standing up for their beliefs, as is perfectly right) contrary to their beliefs, and thereby jepordize their own being. It could happen. I am 100% with Bobart, Matthew 24 27-8 is also very fitting-I wish I had the sence to have found that one. Here are two more appropriate mottos: Do as you will, harming no other Do unto others, as you would have others do unto you. Sorry for the ramble. This has got me all in a rave. Chaz |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Amos Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:48 AM It is possible, as has been suggetsed by Penny et al, that while there are many paths up the mountain, the view from the top is the same. But when you see how complex some folks make the scrabbling around down at the bottom among the brush, it seems equally possible that not only is it more than one mountain, the mountain climbers are speaking from widely separate planets altogether! A |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Bill D Date: 23 Feb 03 - 11:59 AM if someone, of whatever religion/denomination truly believes that their wishes,prayers,blessings etc., can intercede with some higher power in MY behalf, they are free to try....privately, please! If it is going to do any good, it will work without it being said 'at' me, I'd think. It makes me uncomfortable to be offered 'blessings' by someone who has no idea what my beliefs are, and even more uncomfortable if they are aware that I am not a Christian. Those who toss 'blessings' about to all and sundry every day seem to me to be merely repeating platitudes with little content. I often have need to say consoling things or offer wishes for happiness to various friends and acquaintences, and I have learned many ways to assure them that I care and am concerned about them. Just a simple note that says "My thoughts are with you" or "I will be here if you need me." feels deeper to me than offering the ambiguous solace of a deity that may, or may not be paying attention. If someone's intercession for me by prayer or blessing actually does ME some good, *smile*...well, fine...that's nice. I'll never know, but those who pray for me will feel better. I have always been fascinated by the saying "God helps them who help themselves"...one of the few religious sentiments that I like, as it can be taken two ways...straight, or tongue-in-cheek. |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Feb 03 - 12:02 PM But in the case of Chritians, Jews and Muslims, all three would say that they worship "the God of Abraham, Isaac and Joseph" - three branches of the religion. A severe case of sibling rivalry. |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Cluin Date: 23 Feb 03 - 02:27 PM Oh come on, folks! It's just a more or less generic blessing and indication of goodwill and more of a habit. I doubt very much if everybody who says "God Bless You" means it as an insult to everyone who doesn't believe as they do. I'm a general heathen who thinks most "Pagans" are way too preachy for my tastes anyway... damn near as bad as a lot of born-again Christians in their way. And for the record, if you want to get pedantic about it, the whole tradition comes from an old superstition that your soul was in particular jeopardy of being stolen or lost during the instant of a sneeze. Ectoplasmic snot? Very Christian, non? |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:04 AM People more typically say "Bless You" anyway. |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Nigel Parsons Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:10 AM Dave Allen, the Irish comedien always finished his tv shows with "Goodnight, and may your god go with you". Strictly non-denominational, and encompassing a large percentage of people, even if their particular god happens to be a tree. Unlike some of his jokes, I doubt that his parting line could have offended many Nigel |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Gervase Date: 24 Feb 03 - 09:24 AM I worry when anyone quotes from any 'sacred text' to back their argument - be it the Bible, Qu'ran, Torah or the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy. To seek some sort of divine endorsement for one's actions is simply a cop-out. Bush, Rumsfeld & Wolfovitz seem to be making far too much of this "God" malarkey in their efforts to justify the overthrow of a secular state - is it any wonder that many Moslems see them as latter-day crusaders? A shame, really, that the fundamentalist administration doesn't hark back to the beliefs of Tom Paine - "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." That would look far better on a plaque. |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 24 Feb 03 - 02:10 PM So you just quoted from another sacred text to back your own argument... |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: jeffp Date: 24 Feb 03 - 03:31 PM You can't blame the McCarthyites entirely for "In God We Trust." The motto was coined by Salmon P. Chase in 1863 for use on coins, and was approved by the Congress for that purpose in 1864. It was first used on the 1864 two-cent piece. It has appeared on all coins minted in the U.S. since 1938 (it took a brief hiatus from a couple of denominations). It DID become the NATIONAL MOTTO |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: jeffp Date: 24 Feb 03 - 03:33 PM (Continued from above) of the U.S. in 1956 and has appeared on all paper currency since October 1, 1957. source: U.S. Department of the Treasury |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: DougR Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:03 PM Big deal. DougR |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Joe Offer Date: 24 Feb 03 - 04:50 PM I think that if somebody takes offense at my saying "Merry Christmas" or "God Bless You," that's their tough luck. I was wishing them well, not proselytizing. However, I'm more likely to say "Gesundheit," which is probably offensive to some son-of-a-bitch or another. My point, though, is that my meaning is altruistic, not religious. Using "In God We Trust" or "One Nation Under God" as national slogans is another thing. Seems to me that the God referred to in this situation is one that is utterly pro-American and pro-war, and probably an Anglo-Saxon born-again fundamentalist Republican. I'm a church-going, patriotic, pacifist Catholic, and that's not the kind of God I subscribe to. I'd just as soon see God dropped from the Pledge and the dollar. But if you don't like what I say when you sneeze, well, for God's sake, stop sneezing on me! Or at least, use a handkerchief, willya? -Joe Offer- |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: GUEST,just a few thoughts (again...) Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:47 PM To me, saying "God bless you" is a way of saying "peace" or "be well"... My definitions of God and my relationship with Him are MINE... i do not pretend to force on anyone what God never forced on me... When I say God bless you, a person with different religious beliefs may take my statement to mean any God they see it fit to mean... I'd rather SEE someone's faith than hear about it, and in that way, our gov't has failed to show me much except a love for "gods" like war, racism, money, corruption etc. Peace on you, That guy again P.S. any Christian musicians in NJ who want to help me with a demo that a label has requested or might be interested in joining a gospel rock band, email me... Guitar1973@hotmail.com |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: GUEST,Just some thoughts AGAIN... Date: 24 Feb 03 - 05:57 PM SORRY... That email is GuitarFatty1973@hotmail.com Ignore the previous email address. Peace on you, Him again |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: TIA Date: 24 Feb 03 - 06:01 PM In A Gadda Da Vida |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: GUEST,An Pluiéir Ceolmhar sa bhaile Date: 24 Feb 03 - 07:02 PM Dyslexia re-run:In God we strut (in David Trimble-style, coming down the road from Drumcree Church). There are efforts afoot to insert a reference to God in the Constitutional-type thingy currently being drawn up for the EU, but it'll hardly fly. All these ranting American bible-thumpers are made of the same cloth as Ben Ladin and Sharon's little friends. Some of them have even crossed the Atlantic to stir things up here pre-emptively. Put them all in a box and float it out to sea. |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Gervase Date: 25 Feb 03 - 02:44 AM Sacred text Kevin? To some, perhaps, Paine's works would be a sacred canon. My own view, when some aghast and offended aunt asks: "Is nothing sacred?" is to think: "Well, no, nothing is sacred. It's all the product of the human mind, be it the Sermon on the Mount, the Rights of Man, Das Kapital or the loopier bits of Leviticus Nevertheless, there's a difference between admiring something and wishing to adopt it as a maxim and using it to abrogate my own free will or to justify the denigration of others! Some texts express ideas that I don't have the wit or style to express myself, and I'm happy as Larry to plagiarise those - but I wouldn't feel comfortable using them as a moral crutch. So, let others trust in god - personally I put about as much trust in the idea as I do in the tooth fairy and Father Christmas! |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: BlueJay Date: 25 Feb 03 - 06:33 AM That's it, DougR, "Big Deal"? As one of the Mudcat's more obvious conservatives, I had been hoping you might provide a more reasoned explanation of why mandating the posting of "In God We Trust" in our schools will actually aid our children's reading and math skills, andd is a reasonable conservative position. "Big Deal" says it all for me. It typifies the attitude of the Republican party toward anyone but the elite. This has been Shrub Bush's position, (who should be jailed as a traitor), on virtually all international issues, from Kyoto to war crimes. "Big Deal, go fuck yourself." The Republican Party has been hijacked by the far right, and the folks of true, and admirable conservative views don't even recognize that the U.S. is moving more and more towards a Nazi-like regime. I hope it won't take having your grandchild placed on a "terrorist list" for reading "Leaves of Grass", before you conservatives realize Bush's agenda is not conservative at all. Bush's policy is unabashed class warfare. Pretty soon they'll be coming to inspect your books. The impending Iraq war is not about oil. It's about subduing the American People. Thanks, BlueJay |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Greg F. Date: 25 Feb 03 - 08:38 AM "Big Deal". There's those critical analytical skills work. Pithy and to the point as per usual. |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Bugsy Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:05 AM My good friend and performance poet Peter Capp, informs me that you guys in the US got it all wrong. It is in fact a misprint and should be the name of the almost most famous man in history, "Ingi D Wetrust" Cheers Bugsy |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Bugsy Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:08 AM sorry, that should have read "Ingo D Wetrust" Cheers Bugsy |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: An Pluiméir Ceolmhar Date: 25 Feb 03 - 09:16 AM Maybe the initiative is intended to promote allegiance to the Dollar by means of a form of subliminal advertising. |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 25 Feb 03 - 10:33 AM When I was in high school, oh, those long years ago, there was a church just across the street from the H.S. with a large neon sign on top that said "Jesus Saves". It was on a timer, to turn off in the middle of the night. As we irreverently said, "Jesus Saves till midnight; after that, you're on your own!" Dave Oesterreich |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: DougR Date: 25 Feb 03 - 12:50 PM Bluejay: Those of you who object to this can exercise your priviledge at the polls to throw the "rascals" out when the next election rolls around. If a sufficient number of voters shares your views, it can happen. And the law can be repealed if a sufficient number of legislators which to do so. There is a possibility, of course, that a majority of the voters in Colorado do not share your view, but either way the issue would be settled. I can understand why you are upset. Things aren't going your way. Well, do something about it! March! Carry signs that read, "We do not trust God! (or something like that), Get petitions going! Griping about it will change nothing. Is that pithy enough for you Greg? DougR |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:16 PM I believe the question was 'So you conservatives, like DougR, how does all this jibe with your talk of "less government intrusion", and "individual freedom"?' not 'What can we do to get rid of the signs?' You've changed the subject. We know about voting; we don't know what you think about this form of government intrusion. Clint Keller |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: Bobert Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:49 PM Clint: Don't confuse poor Dougie with tough questions. He's having a hard enough time just learning the new "liberal" Republican fight songs. Hey, if the Repubs wanted to outlaw white shirts, he'd be for it. Might take him a few days to getn the yrics and melody down but come performance time, you can bet he wouldn't miss a single note. Awww, jus' messin' with ya', Big Guy. Ahhhh, did ya hear that Repubs want to out law white shirts? Yep, just read it somewhere.... Bobert |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: katlaughing Date: 25 Feb 03 - 04:57 PM PennyS, I understand what you mean, but some of those people do think that they worship the ONLY god there is and everyone else's are false. Like BillD, I don't want to hear it. Thanks, kat |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: GUEST,Clint Keller Date: 25 Feb 03 - 05:22 PM Yeah I know, Bobert, It's just that I'm old & cranky and that DougR post struck a nerve. I get real tired of people -- usually politicians -- answering some other question than the one they were asked. If you didn't know better you'd think they were being evasive. Had to take it out on DougR. If I'm all rested up I can see it's funny, but I get tired sometimes and lose my sense of humor. Clint Keller |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: DougR Date: 26 Feb 03 - 02:23 AM Well, Clint, I'm sorry I didn't tickle your funnybone. If you want to know what I personally think about the issue, I already posted my opinion. Big deal! Laws are introduced in legislatures all the time and not everyone agrees with them. One was introduced recently here in Arizona that I consider particularly stupid: a law that would allow individuals with a permit to carry a concealed weapon into bars or restaurants. I doubt the bill will go anywhere but if it does, I'm not going to take up a crusade against it. My point in my previous post was merely intended to remind BlueJay that if he/she feels as strongly about the issue as he/she apparantly does, he has recourse. He is obviously an activist and knows that the law could be challenged in court, or provided he/she could get enough signatures on a petition refer the question to the voters. What is the real point in posting such a complaint anyway? All one is going to get in reply is from folks who: (1) think it's a good idea, or (2) think it's a lousy idea or (3) don't give a damn. Geeze! DougR |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: *daylia* Date: 26 Feb 03 - 10:57 AM Here's some alternatives to "In God We Trust" (tongue planted firmly in cheek). I believe this one deserves special mention: "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the Political Correctness Movement, and to the Liberals for which it stands, One nation, under Atheism, Divisible, with Tyranny and Injustice for all". Y'know, I'm really GLAD my ancestors moved north of the border long ago! Best wishes (not to be confused with them darned 'blessings') to all. daylia |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: TIA Date: 27 Feb 03 - 11:29 AM DougR: Separation of church and state has nothing to do with voting. It's a Constitutional issue...just like free speech, free assembly, universal suffrage, civil rights, etc. If the majority of people in this country would (hypothetically) vote to take away a woman's right to vote, they can't, because it's gauranteed by the Constitution and therefore not up for a vote. We vote for our representatives, but not for our rights. What this boils down to is how un-elected judges interpret our constitutional rights. But wait, judges are appointed by our elected representatives who are increasingly using issues such as this to screen judicial candidates.... See, If I keep rambling long enough, I guess I end up agreeing with you to some degree! |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: GUEST,Dylan Date: 27 Feb 03 - 12:28 PM I'm with the dyslexics on this one GOT WED IN RUST Dylan |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: DougR Date: 27 Feb 03 - 01:15 PM Whoa, TIA, don't go overboard! :>) DougR |
Subject: RE: BS: In God We Trust From: TIA Date: 27 Feb 03 - 02:38 PM Don't worry, I go in search of a thread where we can spat...BEWARE! |