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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: The Borchester Echo Date: 08 Feb 04 - 02:55 PM If he did nothing other than write a song a day during this period it would have been time well spent. It's otherwise uninteresting and irrelevant. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Folkiedave Date: 09 Feb 04 - 06:07 AM It's interesting and relevant if only to find out where the songs are! I happen to think what an important figure of the 20th century (to me) did for five years of his life at a particularly important time for politics when his life as Peggy described it on Desert Island discs was "driven" by politics. I'd like to know why no-one seemed to know him at this time. I'd like to know how he reconciled his communism with the first couple of years of the war. I am not bothered about him being an avid TV watcher or knowing he had difficulty purchasing a bottle of milk. I'd actually like to know why he didn't want to tell us!! However as I said before that's it..........no more discussion from me on this thread about him and the war. Dave www.collectorsfolk.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST Date: 09 Feb 04 - 09:53 AM Going back to a very early postin' in this threaD - how the hell did Jimmy Miller become Ewan Maccoll. I ask this becos i've heard dribs and drabs over the years about MacColl re-inventing himself as a Scot and generally being a bit of a poser. Nothing wrong with that, a course, he was in the theatre, and a major motive force therein so I read, and actors do like flexible identities and self-concepts. I'm just interested in WHY? |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Folkiedave Date: 09 Feb 04 - 02:00 PM I offer this for waht it is worth. It is rumoured he deserted and changed his name. Dave www.collectorsfolk.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST Date: 09 Feb 04 - 02:51 PM Oh - don't tell us that Dave! Eric just restored my faith in this most famous Salford old lad and now I am not sure again:-( Cheers :D |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: nutty Date: 09 Feb 04 - 03:52 PM Forword to the song " Browned Off (1940-1945) " in The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook states ................. "When Ewan was in the army he wrote quite a lot of what were, at the time, incendiary pieces, Joan Littlewood writes...."the Medical Officer resented the entertainment, 'Write another song about me, Miller, and I'll give you an injection in a place you will never forget'" (Joan's Book,Joan Littlewood's Peculiar History as She Tells It, Methuen 1994) |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Tam the Bam (Nutter) Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:26 AM I just felt like saying it, I know it's got nothing to do with Ewan McColl/ Dirty old town/Salford. I just do these things because that's the sort of person I am. I was going to say other things then I thought I better not. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Tam the Bam (Nutter) Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:37 AM Flower of Scotland is the unoffical national athem of Scotland, whereas God save the queen is still the offical national anthem of Scotland. We are not allowed to have an offical national anthem because Westminster says so. (Scots). But that's got nothing to do with Ewan McColl, I just have these wee rants now again. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: The Borchester Echo Date: 10 Feb 04 - 09:46 AM Hamish Henderson's Freedom Come All Ye would make a far better Scottish national anthem, don't you think? |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Pied Piper Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:03 AM No Gods And Precious Few Heroes (Brian McNeill) Chorus: 'Cause there's no gods and there's precious few heroes But there's plenty on the dole in the land o' the leal And it's time now to sweep the future clear Of the lies of a past that we know was never real I was listening to the news the other day I heard a fat politician who had the cheek to say He was proud to be Scottish, by the way With the glories of our past to remember Here's tae us, wha's like us, listen to the cry No surrender to the truth, and here's the reason why The pride and the glory's just another bloody lie They use to keep us all in line So to hell with the heather and the glen They cleared us off once, and they'll do it all again 'Cause they still prefer sheep to thinking men Ah but men that think like sheep are even better There's nothing much to choose between the old laird and the new They still don't give a damn for the likes of me and you Just mind you pay your rent to the factor when it's due And mind your bloody manners when you pay And tell me, will we never hear the end Of poor bloody Charlie and Culloden yet again Though he ran like a rabbit doon the glen Leaving better folk than him to be butchered Or are you sitting in your council house, thinking o' your clan Waiting for the Jacobites to come and free the land Try going doon the broo wi' a claymore in your hand And count all the princes in the queue So don't talk to me of Scotland the Brave 'Cause if we don't fight soon there'll be nothing left to save Or would you rather stand and watch them dig your grave While you wait for the Tartan Messiah He'll lead us to the Promised Land wi' laughter in his eye We'll all live off the oil and the whisky, by and by Free heavy beer, pie suppers in the sky Will we never hae the sense to learn Final chorus: Ah, there's no gods and there's precious few heroes But there's plenty on the dole in the land o' the leal And I'm damn sure that there's plenty live in fear Of the day we stand together with our shoulders to the wheel Ay, there's no gods! |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,obione Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:14 AM So, we finally get to the crux of the matter.This man changed his name because he was a deserter during World War Two. Is this true? If it is, would it not be better to quietly forget he ever existed? |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: The Borchester Echo Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:17 AM Aye, that one too. It's actually co-wrtitten by Hamish Henderson and Brian McNeill. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Folkiedave Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:18 AM I emphatically DID NOT say that was the reason. I offered it as a romour. Dave www.collectorsfolk.co.uk |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Tam the Bam (Nutter) Date: 10 Feb 04 - 10:38 AM Freedom come all ye is an internationalist song, whereas flower of Scotland is a nationlist song. or we could have no gods |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST Date: 10 Feb 04 - 12:24 PM Dirty Old Town doesn't rhyme. Quite clever really. I was on a website last year which postulated that he deserted from national service. This may have been his decision that he could not support war in any of it's forms. It may be more sinister. He wrote some good stuff but I didn't like him on the rare occasions I saw him perform. There is a MacColl society in Salford which venerates him (and gets a large grant , I believe) , to do so every year. Kirsty MacColl was a superb talent and a dreadful tragedy and loss to music in general. Spot the Dog |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: John Routledge Date: 10 Feb 04 - 12:57 PM The "Rumour" of MacColl's desertion was prevalent in the '60's in Folk Clubs in NE England. Somebody out there knows the truth - can they put us out of our misery :0) |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Raggytash Date: 10 Feb 04 - 01:08 PM Let he without sin cast the first stone If Ewan did go AWOL cos he didn't agree with war .... fair enough If Ewan went AWOL cos he was scared shitless ...... fair enough ....most of us would be a step or two behind him, many who didn't go AWOL only stayed cos they were more scared of the Army authorites I don't even know why I'm putting this on, at the end of the day it's got F*** all to do with any of us I think I'll go and buy a copy of the Sun to get some unbiased balanced reading |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,obione Date: 11 Feb 04 - 07:02 AM It's a good job the rest of that generation were not treacherous deserters otherwise the rest of us would be speaking German now. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: The Borchester Echo Date: 11 Feb 04 - 07:30 AM Was fur Quatsch ist dass? |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Tam the Bam (Nutter) Date: 11 Feb 04 - 03:52 PM Why are deserters treacherous, these people woke up and said sod this for a game of soldiers, why should I be fighting in a war that I didn't start I'm off. Was ist das. Ja I could be considered as a coward because I don't beleive in fighting, just like Ewan, he and other deserters are my heroes because the told the rest to fuck off, at lest he was after the war alive. Why should he fight in a war that he didn't start, let those with the most to lose ie politicions let them fight each other becasue they like it. And leave the rest of us alone. And Salford is still Ewan McColl's dirty old town Guten Tag |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,Rory Date: 11 Feb 04 - 05:18 PM Auschwitz. Dachau. Belsen. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Juan Kerr Date: 12 Feb 04 - 05:26 AM Guernica.Stalingrad.Riga. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Dave Hanson Date: 12 Feb 04 - 07:32 AM Sowerby Bridge. eric |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,Son of WW2 parents Date: 13 Feb 04 - 03:11 AM Tam the incoherent nutter, how would you have us respond to Natzism, extermination camps, world domination megalomania, Gestapo jack boots stamping around Saltcotes.... |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,Guest: alan Date: 22 Feb 04 - 08:10 AM Didn't want to fight in a war he didn't agree with? Maybe we should make him president of the US (allegedly)! |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,Tunesmith Date: 22 Feb 04 - 10:59 AM I was in Salford - Regent Road - the other day buying a guitar, and it struck me just how much of "the old" Salford must have been knocked down to make way for the new retail shopping area. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Compton Date: 22 Feb 04 - 07:01 PM I was just going to say that!! I finally got to visit Salford last year, and Revolving McColl would not have been able to write Dirty Old Town now as you could almost eat your dinner off the pavements now...Posh Old Town really! |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Feb 04 - 09:02 AM Off topic alert! Flower of Scotland is the unoffical national athem of Scotland, whereas God save the queen is still the offical national anthem of Scotland Did I dream it or did England have GSTQ sung while Scotland had FOS performed at the Rugby match on Saturday..? Anyhow - nearly back on track. Indeed, Tunesmith and Compton. Salford had it's 'heart' ripped out in the 60's. I guess you were at Sound Control, Tunesmith? Did you ever visit Salford when that very area was the Shopping Centre? All along Regent Road there were shops, even 2 deparment stores! I remember being amazed at the overhead wires where clerks sent bills and invoices whizzing across customers heads in one of them. Can't remember what it was called though. The shops then went all up Cross Lane, past the old cattle market and on along Broad Street between Pendleton Church and Manchester. All gone to progress alas! We now have a faster road into Manchester, a very nice retail park, some pretty quaysides and, as I said earlier, no City Centre:-( The housing in the same area was realy awful and did need something doing about it. But why destroy the community because it needed updating? Beyond me I'm afraid. Anyhow, finaly back on the proper track! Next time anyone is at Sound Control, if they do not already know follow these directions to see what remains. Out of the car park back onto Regent Road - you have to turn left. Next lights (Oldfield road) turm left again. Next lights (Liverpool Street) turn left again. You are now running parralel to Regent Road. Before the traffic lights at the end you will see, on your left, the remaining Gasometers from the famed gasworks! On the right you will see a car 'megastore' sort of thing (Carland or some such). The street at the side of it (Brunel Avenue) leads to the remains of the Old Canal (The M,B&B) and in the same area were Windsor Bridge sidings where you were most likely to see a train set the night on fire:-) You will be lucky to find any of the canal although some bits do remain in the area. The train lines still go through there though. So ends the historical geography lesson! Next lights turning left again will bring you to the roundabout at the end of the M602, enabling you to continue your journey home no matter what direction you came from. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Roger the Skiffler Date: 23 Feb 04 - 10:02 AM This from Peggy Seeger's website implies he served: ...Last Edition (written by MacColl). This highly successful play dealt with the political events leading up to the Munich pact and used the episodic form which MacColl was later to extend in his experimental post-war play, Uranium 235. In 1939, Last Edition was stopped by the police and MacColl and Littlewood were arrested and charged with disturbing the 'peace'. They were both heavily fined and bound over - that is, barred from taking part in any kind of theatrical activity for the next two years. The small group of dedicated and talented members of Theatre Union formulated plans for a future theatre and embarked upon on intensive studies of theatre art and techniques. World War II began and within a few weeks the group had been scattered to the four corners of the earth and were serving with various military forces. Consequently, most of the training had to be done by correspondence. Nevertheless, study courses, reading lists, books, etc., were circulated consistently throughout the whole period of the war, and there soon existed a small body of farflung students who between them possessed a considerable corpus of knowledge on matters relating to specialised theatre studies. For example, one member made a study of the Attic theatre, and even went to the extent of learning to read Aeschuylus and Socrates in the original Greek; another specialised in studying the Commedia del Arte and still another concentrated on the Chinese theatre. By August 1945, a sufficient number of them had returned home and, by pooling their Army gratuities, it became possible to launch the group now known as Theatre Workshop. The ideas which formed this group were the result of the ten years which MacColl and Littlewood had devoted to various theatrical experiments. Up till this period they had directed the plays jointly, but now the functions were divided: Littlewood was to direct the rehearsals and produce the plays while MacColl was to write plays suitable for the group, train the actors and, to a large extent, formulate new training techniques. During this period, he wrote eleven plays. Theatre Workshop travelled from 1945-1952 and a number of MacColl's plays were performed abroad and translated into German, French, Polish and Russian. By this time, enamoured with the Lallans movement in Scotland, he (like many other Scots-born writers) had changed his name from Jimmie Miller to Ewan MacColl, a name by which he was known for the rest of his life. RtS |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,JohnB Date: 23 Feb 04 - 12:24 PM Return to Topic. (well at least a bit) Salford. My wife always tells everyone the right answer, cos that's where she is from. The Essential MacColl Song Book, quoted a couple of times earlier in the thread does not say that though. Don't have it myself so I can't actually confirm what it says. It was written posthumously though. Again from memory. My wife used to take me shopping at the OLD Salford Market, before they knocked it all down, along with a hell of a lot more around that area. I guess I will get to see what it now looks like, as we will be over in April/May. JohnB |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 23 Feb 04 - 12:54 PM Give me a call for a guided tour if you like JohnB! Get in touch via the Swinton Folk Club web page Here. Mine is the last contact number. we are, incidentaly, the only folk club left in the Salford area. Cheers Dave (Polshaw) the Gnome |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: matai Date: 24 Feb 04 - 08:39 AM So musicians, like poets lie and every town they perform in is their home town and Salford is every town, like Barb'ry (hope you dont mind me using your name this way) becomes Barbara in another time, another place but is still the same name, the same song. affectionately, Matai (from down-under) |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:34 PM This thread seems to have moved away from the origin of Dirty Old Town, but for the record if you read the correct lyrics (ie. not the ones the Pogues sing) then it says "Smelt the spring on the SALFORD wind". Not debate there! Greater Manchester still exists and Salford is one of its 10 metropolitan boroughs. It's just the Greater Manchester Council that was abolished. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: nutty Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:52 PM Must disagree with Guest According to "The Essential Ewan MacColl Songbook" that line should be .. "Smelled the spring on the smoky wind" |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Joe_F Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:23 PM Ewan MacColl sang more songs I like than any other singer. I am more interested in the people in those songs than in him, and I would be inclined to let him rest in peace. However, when someone writes an autobiography (_Journeyman_) in which the entirety of W.W. II has slipped thru the crack between consecutive chapters, (1) he is IMO as much as inviting people to come up with scurrilous rumors, and (2) one's interest is piqued. We are talking about an era that is now slipping from living memory, and during which large numbers of admirable people, left & right, are known to have behaved shamefully. What could possibly need to be concealed after sixty years? |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: LindsayInWales Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:26 PM just to add my sixpenn'orth, "Dirty Old Town" was the very first song I ever sung in public, with a borrowed 12-string guitar, during a school concert. My guitar was referred to by my school headmistress as "That Instrument" - and was frowned upon if ever I took it to school (1964-67) In 1968 "Jackie and Bridie" sang at the Pioneer Youth Club in St. Albans, and I was lucky enough to perform with them. It put me on the road to a lifetime love of real people and real music..... |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,Keith Williams Date: 18 Jun 04 - 04:33 AM Yes, Dirty Old Town is about Salford.It is now sung at Old Trafford before Man United take to the pitch. To who ever was wittering on about Salford being a suburb of Manchester, it most definately is NOT! It is a City in its own right and historically is older than Manchester. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Dave Bryant Date: 18 Jun 04 - 09:20 AM It's still only a small part of Greater Manchester - as the City of London is of Greater London. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,Steve Date: 01 Oct 04 - 09:52 AM I can actually claim to have met Ewan. Who always said it was about Salford which he refered to as "That Athens of the North". He wrote while working as a Jounalist in Manchester. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,John Green Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:10 AM Just after the war I shared a room with Ewan. I wrote a little song called "Filthy old slum" I left it there in that room, written on the back of a Woodbine packet. Years later to my surprise I heard what seemed to me the same song with the words slightly altered on the radio. I wrote to Ewan and demanded a share in the profits "kiss my ass!" said he. Just goes to show, who cares what it's about as long as it makes loads of cash. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Dave Hanson Date: 01 Oct 04 - 10:20 AM Not only green by name eh! neither are we. eric |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST Date: 01 Oct 04 - 05:44 PM The clincher to me is the use of the word 'croft'. A Salford (and Eccles) name for a patch of waste ground. |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Dave Hanson Date: 02 Oct 04 - 02:54 AM If you can find it there is an excellent video called ' The Ballad of Ewan MacColl ' much of it filmed in Salford where Ewan points out the ' cinder croft ' in ' Dirty Old Town ' End of discussion. eric |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,Trish Date: 20 Mar 05 - 11:33 PM I think it was Solfard |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Mar 05 - 05:55 AM Interesting to see this crop up again when I just discovered that the old folkie himself, Rod Stewart, had a hand in the lyrics! I never knew that. Mind you, I didn't know he wrote the Wild Mountain Thyme (known to Mr S fans as 'Purple heather' ) either;-) Don't believe me? Check it out here Incidentaly, according to Rod the man, the phrase is 'smelt the sping on the sulphured wind. So now we know. It is about Sulphered. Cheers DtG |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:07 AM This invites the question "what the hell were you doing on a Rod Stewart web site" ;-) |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Dave the Gnome Date: 21 Mar 05 - 06:32 AM Looking for the lyrics for Dirty Old Town of course...:-) |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: GUEST,Raggytash Date: 21 Mar 05 - 07:19 AM As the romans would say "taurus excretum" |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Leadfingers Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:13 AM But EVERYBODY knows dirty Old Town is an IRISH song , dont they ?? |
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Subject: RE: Which Town is MacColl's Dirty Old Town? From: Leadfingers Date: 21 Mar 05 - 08:14 AM And at least Rod does credit ewan !! -Oh , by the way , 1oo !! |
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