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BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:46 AM The targeted assassinations of both Yassin and Rantisi were part of a long standing Israeli defence strategy. Leading members of terrorist organisations engaged in attacks against Israel have been targeted and killed throughout the last fifty years, so this is nothing new - business as usual. What is different in these particular cases is the stage and circumstances, internationally, at the time of their deaths, that makes one wonder if the consequences of those actions were fully thought out and the pros and cons weighed. Take a look at what those might be for the Israeli Government, any Israeli Government. 1. They have long held to their belief that the Palestinian Authority under the leadership of Yasser Arafat is totally ineffectual because Arafat refuses to provide leadership for his people. But, inconveniently, he is the elected representative of the Palestinian people (very poor, imprecise term that, as no such people actually exist, it's like saying, those who live in London are a "nation" or "a people"). Arafat survives on keeping the pot boiling while not being seen to be actively stoking the fire or stirring it, he will not act openly against the terrorists in his midst for fear of losing power, so he allows the situation to drift, blaming all his ills on Israeli retaliation to terrorist attacks that Arafat should have been doing his utmost to prevent. Meanwhile the Palestinian Authority receives more in international aid and funding than any other group in the world - the Palestinians see precious little of it - Arafat controls the purse strings, his security forces are paid in cash, no budget, no records, no accounting - in this way he manages to walk the political tight-rope, make a bit of money on the side (no, change that to make a heap load of money on the side), and keep his Al-Aqsa Brigade in funds (policemen by day, wannabe-martyrs by night). The Israeli's know that as long as the above situation prevails any agreement reached between the Israeli Government and the Palestinian Authority is not worth the paper it is printed on, because in the back-ground they will still have the likes of Al-Aqsa Brigade; Hamas; Hezbollah; Islamic Jihad; etc, to deal with. 2. Target presents itself of the two highest profile members of Hamas (Yassin and Rantisi). Israel knows the full consequence of taking both out of the picture: - Massive outpouring of international condemnation - no problem there they have been the recipient of such condemnation in the past, doesn't worry them, from their perspective they are fighting as much for national survival now as they were in 1948, nothing has changed. - Outrage within the ranks of the terrorist organisations and the Arab world in general. Again nothing new there, it may however further impress on the minds of the Palestinians that Arafat and the Palestinian Authority are all ineffectual, men of straw. It may divert Palestinian support from Arafat to the likes of Hamas to such an extent that the Palestinians replace Arafat. The Israelis then are dealing with what they see as the "opposition" at the heart of the matter. It forces Hamas to become more "political" - might not appear to be a good thing in the short term, but in the long run they will then end up talking to a group that can make any form agreement reached hold. If Hamas, persist in adhering to their well stated aim - the complete destruction of the State of Israel - then at least that is the issue and it is completely out in the open for the entire world to see it for what it actually is. MGOH "The terrorists on both sides - within the IDA (IDF?) and Al Hamas etc - make claims that their intention is that their violence will deter the other side." I believe that the actions of the IDF are meant to deter attacks against Israeli civilians. The attacks by Al-Aqsa; Hamas; Hezbollah; Islamic Jihad; et al, are not, nor have they ever been, to deter IDF response, quite the reverse, they are speficifally designed to provoke massive response by the IDF - they want war, they want to completely destroy Israel. Unfortunately, for the likes of Hamas, the Israeli's are not about to let that happen. What was promised in the aftermath of Yassin's assassination? What has been promised in the wake of Rantisi's killing? I know you are a believer in worser than worst, but in actual fact the Israeli's walking the streets of Israel's towns and cities are under no greater threat today than they have been for the last four years at least. I listened to Rantisi's son on television predicting a terrible retribution, waves of suicide bombings and attacks on Israel - I will bet the farm that he is not one of their number. For such duties they will recruit and send, the young, the impressionable, the gullible, the innocent - all of whom, the likes of Arafat, Hamas, etc, say they are fighting for - I am only pleased that they are not representing, fighting for, or protecting me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:07 PM Meanwhile the Palestinian Authority receives more in international aid and funding than any other group in the world Teribus, you're talking out yer ass again. The Palestinians receive about $500 million per year in international aid. Israel receives between three to four BILLION dollars per year in outright grants from the US, and many billions of dollars per year in other kinds of assistance such as guaranteed loans (which, by the way are not always paid back, and the US ends up footing the bill). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:14 PM CarolC, please read what is written - last I knew Israel happens to be a COUNTRY, not a group. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:17 PM Nicely split hair ther, Teribus. You have a rare talent for misdirection. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:21 PM Not a split-hair CarolC, merely a fact, no misdirection intended. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:28 PM The distinction is completely irrelevant to the discussion. The only purpose it can serve is to give people a false impression about the facts on the ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 20 Apr 04 - 12:39 PM I thought Arafat had $300,000,000 of that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:08 PM Now let's see - a false impression of the facts on the ground 1. It is false to say that the Palestinian Authority do receive a whole ruck of money, that somehow never seems to get to those who need it? 2. You're right brucie, Arafat at the last reckoning had managed to acquire a fortune of some $300,000,000 - he must have a good stock-broker - or perhaps it's a false impression of the facts on the ground - but bank balances seldom lie. 3. Perhaps it's false to say that the Palestinian Authority have never been able to offer up to those who provide aid, detailed accounts of what their money has been spent on. But those dealing with Palestinian aid within the EU have never been able to obtain any. 4. It's false to say that Arafat will not relinquish operational and financial control of the Palestinian Authorities security forces? He lost his first Prime Minister Abu Mazan precisely over this issue. It however, remains a fact that his security forces are paid in cash and that no records are kept - so no-one, apart from Arafat and his closest circle, has any clue how much has been spent, where it has been spent (We do know he spent about $15,000,000 in Iran a good few months ago - the IDF intercepted the weapons shipment) and for what purpose it has been spent. Another false impression of the facts on the ground? Would I buy a used camel from Yasser Arafat? Hells teeth, I wouldn't even sell him one. Toddle off and do some research carolC - take a look at how, and why, Hamas was founded - there are two "branches of that particular organisation - one of them exists purely to dole out relief aid to the Palestinians that Arafat and Co are robbing blind and have been doing for decades - probably another false impression of the facts on the ground. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:25 PM 1. It is false to say that the Palestinian Authority do receive a whole ruck of money, that somehow never seems to get to those who need it? It certainly is not entirey true. The Palestinian Authority used to have a well developed infrastructure that included schools, hospitals, police departments, and other normal structures of civil society. During the Israeli incursion into the Occupied Territories in spring of 2002, the IDF specifically targeted these civil structures. In these cases, the money got where it was supposed to go, but the government of Israel used my tax dollars to destroy them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: ard mhacha Date: 20 Apr 04 - 01:28 PM Toddle off, lovely fella,--- no long winded prattle, straight to the point. The US and its lap-dogs are sinking ever deeper in the mire, and is the world a safer place from the US blindering, planless, murderous invasion of Iraq?, well not from were I am sitting. Teribus did you look in on Bush`s press conference?, were you impressed?, I haven`t seen you exress an opinion, c`mon, what are you waiting for, some more gems of wisdom from your warrior hero?. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 20 Apr 04 - 02:20 PM "Arafat survives on keeping the pot boiling while not being seen to be actively stoking the fire or stirring it, he will not act openly against the terrorists in his midst for fear of losing power, so he allows the situation to drift, blaming all his ills on Israeli retaliation to terrorist attacks that Arafat should have been doing his utmost to prevent." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:13 PM That's right, cowardly Guest who wrote: "Bullshit! As long as Jews in America continue to pour billions of dollars into American political coffers, American politicians will continue to cowtow to Isreal. And that means both parties" We've got the money, honey and we've got the time. We've got the attention of the leaders of America that we are not going to get pushed around by Hamas or any other terrorist groups. As for driving them underground where they can't negotiate, sorry pal, Israel has been trying to talk sense to these guys for a long time and what do they get, another blown up bus or shopping mall. No, I may not speak for all of America, because there are obviously those here who hate Israel, but right now I hope we help them all we can. Deal with it. America is not going to let Israel down. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:16 PM Carol C. They used my tax dollars also. Tough shit. Don't like how your tax dollars are being used? Get a candidate to support your own agenda. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:16 PM The government of Israel keeps Arafat in power by keeping the pot boiling under him because he makes a perfect scapegoat whom they can blame for all of the problems that they, themselves, are causing with the occupation of the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem, by the destruction of the Palestinians' civil infrastructure, with the expansion of settlements, with the violence against civilians in the Occupied Territories by the IDF and the settlers, by the destruction of many thousands of Palestinian homes, orchards, farmlands, and other means of livlihood, by the confiscation of land from Palestinians both within the Occupied Territories as well as with Israel itself, by the construction of "Jewish only" roads and other facilities in the Occupied Territories, by denying the Palestinians in the occupied territories access to water, by the closures and roadblocks that don't protect Israel from anyting, but instead, just keep Palestinians from moving around freely within their own designated areas, and numerous other violations of the Palestinians. All of these things serve one aim, and one aim only. Getting all of the Palestinians out of Israel and the Occupied Territories. The government of Israel may not have this as their "stated" agenda, but their actions speak much louder than their words. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Apr 04 - 03:33 PM Well Carol, C. why don't you pull up the trailer, put it on a boat and go over there to help Palestine in their "Moslem only, I'll gladly blow myself up for Allah state of Jewish hate." They would welcome an American sympathizer like you, wouldn't they? You have all of the answers and the mindset to be a great leader for them, I do believe. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:00 PM Martin, the Palestinians don't want a "Muslim only" state. They want a state for Palestinians, whether they are Muslim, Christian, or Jewish. There are Christian Palestinians, and there used to be Jewish Palestinians too, before the creation of the State of Israel, when I guess they chose to become Israelis. The Jews, Muslims, and Christians were getting along just fine in that place until the Europeans showed up. That's when people started hating each other. Don't like how your tax dollars are being used? Get a candidate to support your own agenda. Interesting idea, Martin. What do you think might happen to a US politician who tried to eliminate, or even reduce US financial aid to Israel? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST,Larry K Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:03 PM It is wrong to keep talking about Palestinians as a country. They have no borders, no constitution, no currency, no hierarchy of leadership, no embassys, no ambassadors, no seat in the UN, etc, etc. The palestinians under Arafat are a terroist organization- or if you prefer the front group for a number of terrorist organizations-Hamas, Hezbollah, Islamic Jihad etc. They should be dealt with as a terrorist- not as a nation. Bill Clinton made a major mistake when he tried to deal with Bin Laden as a legal issue rather than as a terrorist. He turned down the deal from Sudan because he didn't know if he had enough evidence to prosecute him in a court case. It he dealt with Bin Laden as a terrorist there would not have been a 9/11. Anyone who equates the killing of Palestian terrorist as the same level of homicide bombers who kill innocent woman and children in shopping malls and cafes is anit semitic or brain dead. That description fits 90% of the United Nations. Two terrorists in Virgina paralized the United States for months until they were caught. Yet these same people criticize Israel for wanting to defend their land. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:10 PM It is wrong to keep talking about Palestinians as a country. They have no borders, no constitution, no currency, no hierarchy of leadership, no embassys, no ambassadors, no seat in the UN, etc, etc. And just whose fault is that? None other than the governments of the US, Britain, and Israel. There was a time in the world's history when the Jews didn't have any of those thing either. But would you accept the fact that they never had them before as a legitimate reason to deny it to them when they first did have them? I doubt it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST,C-watch Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:49 PM Martin, the Palestinians don't want a "Muslim only" state. They want a state for Palestinians, whether they are Muslim, Christian, or Jewish. I don't know how you can generalize about what "the Palestinians" want. At this point in time, Hamas philosophy guides a large segment of Palestinian society, and that's certainly not what Hamas wants. According to Hamas, every inch of Israel is part of their exclusively-Islamic state of Palestine. Read these excerpts from the Hamas Covenant and perhaps you'll have a better clue as to what Israel is up against. 'Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it.' (Preamble) 'The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine.' (Article 6) 'The Day of Judgment will not come about until Moslems fight Jews and kill them. Then, the Jews will hide behind rocks and trees, and the rocks and trees will cry out: 'O Moslem, there is a Jew hiding behind me, come and kill him.' (Article 7) 'The land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf [Holy Possession] consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgment Day. No one can renounce it or any part, or abandon it or any part of it.' (Article 11) 'Palestine is an Islamic land... Since this is the case, the Liberation of Palestine is an individual duty for every Moslem wherever he may be...[Peace] initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement... Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the infidels as arbitrators in the lands of Islam... There is no solution for the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility.' (Article 13) 'The day the enemies usurp part of Moslem land, Jihad becomes the individual duty of every Moslem. In the face of the Jews' usurpation, it is compulsory that the banner of Jihad be raised.' (Article 15) 'The enemies have been scheming for a long time... and have accumulated huge and influential material wealth. With their money, they took control of the world media... With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the globe... They stood behind the French Revolution, the Communist Revolution and most of the revolutions we hear about... With their money they formed secret organizations - such as the Freemasons, Rotary Clubs and the Lions - which are spreading around the world, in order to destroy societies and carry out Zionist interests... They stood behind World War I ... and formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains... There is no war going on anywhere without them having their finger in it.' (Article 22) 'Egypt was, to a great extent, removed from the circle of struggle [against Zionism] through the treacherous Camp David Agreement. The Zionists are trying to draw other Arab countries into similar agreements in order to bring them outside the circle of struggle... Leaving the circle of struggle against Zionism is high treason, and cursed be he who perpetrates such an act...Zionism scheming has no end, and after Palestine, they will covet expansion from the Nile to the Euphrates River. When they have finished digesting the area on which they have laid their hand, they will look forward to more expansion. Their scheme has been laid out in the 'Protocols of the Elders of Zion'...HAMAS regards itself the spearhead and the vanguard of the circle of struggle against World Zionism... Islamic groups all over the Arab world should also do the same, since they are best equipped for their future role in the fight against the warmongering Jews.' (Article 32) 'Ranks will close, fighters joining other fighters, and masses everywhere in the Islamic world will come forward in response to the call of duty, loudly proclaiming: 'Hail to Jihad!'. This cry will reach the heavens and will go on being resounded until liberation is achieved, the invaders vanquished and Allah's victory comes about.' (Article 33) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Apr 04 - 05:54 PM Carol C. asked: "What do you think might happen to a US politician who tried to eliminate, or even reduce US financial aid to Israel?" I wouldn't vote for him, nor I believe any one with any common sense would. Go find your candidate who supports your beliefs. He doesn't exist. You bet there was a time when the Jews didn't have a country. They have it now. It was given to them legally with the sanction of the United Nations. To Larry K. Your questions and comments are absolutely right on. Carol c. will do as much as she can to justify her anti-Israel agenda. don't fall into her trap. She is the champion for all things Palestinian. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 06:37 PM You bet there was a time when the Jews didn't have a country. They have it now. It was given to them legally with the sanction of the United Nations. Only the part that is within the pre-1967 borders, Martin. And it is the part that the UN didn't give to Israel, the part outside the Green Line, that I am concerned with in discussions like this one. (And the UN has made it very clear that Israel is in violation of UN resolutions by occupying the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem). I don't know how you can generalize about what "the Palestinians" want. At this point in time, Hamas philosophy guides a large segment of Palestinian society, and that's certainly not what Hamas wants. According to Hamas, every inch of Israel is part of their exclusively-Islamic state of Palestine. And to the extent that Israel undermines the Palestinian Authority and denies the Palestinians their own independent state (and destroys the Palestinians' civil institutions), they cause ever increasing numbers of Palestinians to become radicalized and embrace the philosophy of Hamas. If the government of Israel really wanted to get rid of Hamas, it would be supporting the Palestinian Authority and helping the Palestinians acheive their goal of having an independent state. That would give the majority of Palestinians the incentive to fight against Hamas themselves. As it is now, they have nothing. But the majority of Palestinians just want to be left alone to live in peace (and they have agreed to do it within the pre-1967 borders), just as the majority of Jews (worldwide) and Israelis (Jewish and non-Jewish) want to be left alone to live in peace. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 06:46 PM I wouldn't vote for him, nor I believe any one with any common sense would. Go find your candidate who supports your beliefs. He doesn't exist. Actually, he does exist, and there is a very good chance that I will be voting for him on election day. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:19 PM 1967. Whay does that year ring a bell. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:32 PM Maybe because it was the year that you got your lobotomy. No? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: freda underhill Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:35 PM GUEST - go jump. 1967 - from BBC news On This Day.. 1967: Israel launches attack on Arab states Israeli forces have launched a pre-emptive attack on the country's neighbouring Arab states including the destruction of nearly 400 Egypt based military aircraft. Fighting broke out on the Israel-Egypt border but then quickly spread to involve other neighbouring Arab states with ground and air troops becoming embroiled in battle. Israeli Prime Minister Levi Eshkol said in a statement that the Egyptian Air Force had taken a great beating and Jordan and Syrian air forces had been largely destroyed. The attack follows a build-up of Arab military forces along the Israeli border. The Arab states had been preparing to go to war against Israel with Egypt, Jordan and Syria being aided by Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Sudan and Algeria. On 27 May the President of Egypt, Abdel Nasser, declared: "Our basic objective will be the destruction of Israel. The Arab people want to fight." Egypt signed a pact with Jordan at the end of May declaring an attack on one was an attack on both. This was seen by Israel as a clear sign of preparation for all-out war. Fleeing Israel took decisive action today claiming the element of surprise was the only way it could stand any chance of defending itself against the increasing threat from neighbouring states. Israeli troops claim to have captured the key town of El Anish in north Sinai and are now advancing towards Abu Gela. Hundreds of thousands of Palestinians are said to be fleeing the crossfire in the West Bank. So far the US state department has announced, "Our position is neutral in thought, word and deed." This follows its recent stance declaring Israel would not be alone unless it decided to go it alone. The path for war was cleared on 16 May when President Nasser ordered the withdrawal of the United Nations Emergency Forces from the Egyptian-Israeli border. In Context The assault ended on 10 June and became known as the six-day war - it changed the face of the Middle East conflict. At the end of the war Israel had succeeded in almost doubling the amount of territory it controlled. Israel seized Gaza and the Sinai Peninsula from Egypt in the south and the Golan Heights from Syria in the north. It also pushed Jordanian forces out of the West Bank and East Jerusalem. The total number of casualties was estimated at 100,000. Egypt and Jordan are the only Arab nations that have since made peace with Israel. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/5/newsid_2654000/2654251.stm) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 20 Apr 04 - 07:38 PM And it is in violation of international law to which Israel is a signatory, for any country to colonize land that it has occupied. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Backstage Manager(inactive) Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:36 PM Reading through the passages from the Hamas covenant is, indeed, very scary and a window into what the Israelis are up against. Even scarier than the excerpts provided by C-Watch is the full document. I found it |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Backstage Manager(inactive) Date: 20 Apr 04 - 08:38 PM Sorry, I hit the "Submit Message" button when I meant to click on "Make a link." Here is what I meant to post. Reading through the passages from the Hamas covenant is, indeed, very scary and a window into what the Israelis are up against. Even scarier than the excerpts provided by C-Watch is the full document. I found it linked here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 04 - 09:19 PM Martin Gibson, who is so closed minded he wouldn't know the truth if it hit him in the ass, says: "You bet there was a time when the Jews didn't have a country. They have it now. It was given to them legally with the sanction of the United Nations." Well, there you go again! You, through your constant support of Bush, will certainly support his remarks about how worthless the United Nations are, so by extension this must have been another mistake by the UN! Now go ahead and use the same spin your Bushie does to get out of this one. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 20 Apr 04 - 11:35 PM Actualy, hair breath Guest, I really do not support Bush for everything as you so stupidly claim. You obviously are making futile stabs at knowing me, which you, ahem, fucking don't. But I do support his backing of Israel, you fuck faced coward with no name, and I do hope he gives them enough money to completely destroy Hamas. What do you think, everything the UN has done is wrong? You have shit for brains, oh cowardly Guest. Long live Israel. Death to Hamas. Whatever it takes to rid the middle east of terrorists. Attention anti-Israel posters: You are wasting your time and your seething hate on this topic! American Jews have war chests of honestly earned dollars to help support Israel and politicians who are LISTENING to us. As I love to say, deal with it. I might not vote for Bush. But then again, I might. Carol C., by all means vote for the candidate you think will win. Is his name Abdul, by chance? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 21 Apr 04 - 12:28 AM No, Martin. His name is not Abdul. And I'm fairly confident that he will not win. Here are some more newspaper quotes about the 1967 war: Le Monde, June 3, 1972... "All those stories about the huge danger we were facing because of our small territorial size, an argument expounded once the war was over, had never been considered in our calculations prior to the unleashing of hostilities. While we proceeded towards the full mobilisation of our forces, no person in his right mind could believe that all this force was necessary to our defence against the Egyptian threat. To pretend that the Egyptian forces concentrated on our borders were capable of threatening Israel's existence does not only insult the intelligence of any person capable of analysing this kind of situation, but is primarily an insult to the Israeli army." --General Mattitiahu Peled, Chief Quartermaster-General's Branch, Israeli Defence Forces, General Staff Ma' ariv, April 4, 1972... "There was no danger of annihilation. Israeli headquarters never believed in this danger." --General Chaim Herzog, Commanding General and first Military Govemor, Israeli Occupied West Bank New York Times, August 21, 1982... "In June l967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him." --Menachem Begin And this from Holocaust survivor and Israeli Jew, Israel Shahak: I myself well remember how (before I was "in opposition") the necessity of war with was explained to me and others a year before the 1956 war, and the necessity of conquering "the rest of Western Palestine when we will have the opportunity" was explained in the years 1965-67. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Teribus Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:04 AM No opinion on the Hamas Covenant then Carol? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 21 Apr 04 - 05:12 AM Real anger runs deep on this thread. If those of us who do not live in the Middle East can be in such virulant disagreement over the rights and wrongs of the issue, what chance do those at the centre of the storm have? A few observations: I lived in Israel on and off during the 70s, and in that time what struck me over and over again were the borders that they were defending. They made a lot of sense to me, in that they were either water, mountains, or desert. Most Israelis were living in a constant state of paranoia ever since the inception of that country. Children helped to guard kibbutzim with M15s strapped around their shoulders. I was also on the spot when most of the Sinai was given back to Egypt, and the growing anger, but final grudging acceptance that this was an important step towards peace, at least on one border. What was also palpable was the feeling that this was an island surrounded by Arab countries who had combined their efforts in the past towards one end- in manipulating the Palestinian refugees who were never allowed to be assimilated into any of their societies, but rather kept as pawns in the most horrific refugee camps to be encouraged to live in a state of fury and desperation about their future. They raised their children in an atmosphere of no hope, or the only hope being the total annihilation of Israel. Both sides are being manipulated now. The hatred has grown a hundred-fold and is still being fanned by outside powers with their own agendas. I do not see a way out of this. I wish I did, for both peoples are suffering and the world is caught in this extended grip of madness. ...e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 21 Apr 04 - 03:04 PM I'm against the activities and agenda of Hamas, Teribus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 21 Apr 04 - 05:39 PM Ellen... The hatred you speak of ,has its roots in the inception of the State of Israel itself. Recently,I have spoken at length with a British Army major, who was involved in the allocation of Arab land to the jews just after WW2. He told me the allocation was a sham,as the jews stole many times the amount of land that they had been allocated,and taking the best land available. No one in the British command had the will or the means to stop this theft,and the French consul ,who tried to "blow the whistle", was murdered by the Israeli Secret service....Nothing changes.. Martin Gibson and his ilk are ignorant fools if they think Islamic Fundamentalism can be "stopped" by force. If we are lucky the change will come from inside Islam,but I fear these fanatics are much too strong in will for our self indulgent societies to deal with. Maybe its all for the best,as you stated earlier humanity gets what it deserves....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 21 Apr 04 - 09:45 PM No akenaton, you are the ignorant fool who believes we have to be "lucky" to stop those who can't be reasoned with. I wouldn't try your "luck" in Las Vegas. Yes, the Islamic fundamentalists are strong in will, but short on reasoning. When you can't reason with them, they are going to have to be shown what the alternative is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:28 AM Martin... It is your argument which is short on reason. Surely you realise that the Western Democracies,which have nothing but the profit motive as a driving force,simply dont have the will to stand against anything that becomes politically inconvieniant. Our social and economic systems are a house of cards,which will get progressivly "wobbly",as this "war on terror" continues. The madmen of Islam on the other hand,know they are going to be victorious,and cant wait to see Allah. The problem is that here are millions of peace loving Moslems ,who are daily being driven into the arms of Osama by our "phony war" |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 22 Apr 04 - 10:22 AM Ake, "The madmen of Islam . . . can't wait to see Allah." That's true. So why do so many people get pissed off at me when I suggest we help them do just that? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: el ted Date: 22 Apr 04 - 10:26 AM Boring. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Risky Business Date: 22 Apr 04 - 11:00 AM On the subject of extremist beliefs: Does anyone know where the promise of posthumous virgins comes from? it's not in the Koran but maybe it's part of the hadith. There should be some way to let the terrorists know that due to the extended Yankee air cover many flights have gone through virgin territory. It would be a shame if those ethereal ladies now have some experience and have real men to compare the terrorists with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Metchosin Date: 22 Apr 04 - 11:33 AM Well I always figured that most wars are some sort of pecker contest.....I rest my case. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 04 - 02:01 PM So why do so many people get pissed off at me when I suggest we help them do just that? I guess, unless you just enjoy the idea of killing people, it doesn't make any sense. At least not in any way that would help solve the problem and not make it worse. The killing of Muslims, even extremists, by Western governments, only radicalizes more and more formerly moderate Muslims, who then become extremists. We're seeing this happen in Iraq right now. As I said earlier in this thread, you can't solve the problem by trying to kill it (wipe it out). You have to correct the underlying problems that are creating the symptom. The other problem with saying that is if you and others aren't careful to specify that you don't consider all Muslims extremists, which is an assumption that many people do make about Muslims. Risky Business, you don't really think of women as people, do you? (Just a port in the storm, right?) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:28 PM CarolC: Take you head out of there. Of course I think of women as people. Women terrorists should also get what they deserve. You can take your remark to me, and the presumption that goes with it, and put it somewhere. Please don't ever address me again. Period. You have just become someone whom I no longer know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:49 PM Carol C., when those big moskeeters started biting' at you through the broken screens of that trailer of yours in swampy rural Alabamy, don't bother to kill them. Just think of what is the underlying problem that creates the symptom. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Metchosin Date: 22 Apr 04 - 03:54 PM huh? so you are posting under the handle Risky Business too brucie? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:01 PM Brucie, is your name "Risky Business"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM ...talk about presumptions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:24 PM Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 22 Apr 04 - 04:50 PM right |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 22 Apr 04 - 05:58 PM indifferent |
