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BS: Isreal Wastes no Time....
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Subject: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Bobert Date: 17 Apr 04 - 10:18 PM Less than 48 hours after Sharon and Bush declare their *new and imprived* roadmap for peace, Isreal has assisinated the newly elevated leader of Hamas, Abdfelazia Rantisi... And the beat goes on... Like, what roadmap these folks reading? Kill everyone and declare victory, 'er what.... Okay, Teribus, et al. Tell us just how evil Ranitisi was so you feel better. Yeah, get it off yer chests... Friggin' studidity as far as I can see... Bobert |
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Subject: RE: BS: Israel Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 17 Apr 04 - 11:03 PM Israel has been out of control for a number of years. It is possible to say this without being anti-semitic (a defensive accusation frequently made by those who support Israel no matter what they do). The government there does as much as it can to offend it's nearest neighbors and Palestinan citizens and subjects, then says "stop! Right now, we want peace!" They do this at a point when everyone is too worked up to even consider it. It's like they want to get in their last licks before making everyone else stop. It's schoolyard bully tactics. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: The Fooles Troupe Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:06 AM ...and now Bush has given total support... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Shanghaiceltic Date: 18 Apr 04 - 01:35 AM Where will it ever end. Bush has given support to Sharon, who has taken that support to include knocking out anyone it feels is a threat. There is no way any movement towards peace can be had in these circumstances. Blair has tried to support Bush on the Iraq issue but has also tried to push GWB towards peace settlement in Israel and Palestine. I guess this is now totally at an end. Did Bush offer his support to Sharon in the hope of getting more of the Jewish vote in the US. If so it could be a bitter bowl of tea. Becuase of Sharons actions more Jews will be targeted for suicide bombings and shootings in Israel, and of course then the Palestinians will be targeted again by the Israeli forces. The circle just gets more viscious and unbreakable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Metchosin Date: 18 Apr 04 - 03:28 AM Ah Bobert, can't a couple of guys have a bit of fun doing some offroading? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:56 AM Shanghaiceltic, your last paragraph? You betcha..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Georgiansilver Date: 18 Apr 04 - 08:52 AM Hey folks...Israels main currency used to be the Shekel but it has been the dollar..the American Dollar...for many years now......what does that tell you?? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peter K (Fionn) Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:08 AM SRS, in the UK many in the Jewish community have long been aghast at Sharon's behaviour - and their views are significant because they cannot be tainted with "anti-semite" smears. A prominent Jewish politician in the UK, Gerald Kaufman, had a big op-ed piece in the maniacally rightwing (London) Daily Mail on Friday, and I hesitated to read it, having been irritated in the past by his(to my mind) unwarrentedly pro-Israeli line. In fact on this occasion he was lambasting the Sharon-Bush fix, and indeed Sharon himself, in unequivocal terms. And that was before the latest outrage. To be fair though, the latest guy taken out by helcopter gunship was not in a wheelchair, so Sharon's "heroes" really are getting quite brave. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:18 AM Various pundits saying how this is going to be self-defeating, because it will lead to retaliatioin in which more Isaeklis will be killed. That strikes me as very naive, since it is pretty clear that that is what it it intended to achieve, as a way of strengthening Hamas and ensuring that a negotiated settlement can be avoided. Short-term, it's brutal but makes some kind of sense. Longterm, well that's a bit differemt. There's no longterm future for Israel down this road. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST,Joseph Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:14 AM I figured someone would start a thread lamenting the loss of a valuable member of 'Palestininan' aristocracy. If Osama is found will erasing his malign presence also be an 'assassination'. My heartfelt congratulations to Israel on erasing a nasty bug, terminating an excresence called a 'leader'. My your aim continue to be good, your arms firm, your defenses stronger. ngadla! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:27 AM Another guest comes trolling. [yawn] Peter, there are Jewish groups in the U.S. who are also appalled at what Bush and Sharon and their ilk are doing. In psychiatric circles, it is common knowledge that a child who is abused by a parent frequently grows up to abuse his own children. Israel, a nation based on a population fleeing inhumanity in many nations of the world, has grown into an abusive parent itself. It can't see what it's doing, and seems to know no other way to negotiate through it's world. It's time to stop looking the other way because of the abused childhood and start holding the adult/parent responsible for his own acts. They're criminal acts, they are short sighted retribution. They are nihilistic--another part of the problem. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:45 AM SRS: Similar remarks were made when Israel captured Eichmann and took him for trial in Israel. I would think it's hard to kiss and make up with someone who has killed so many of your children. Not saying it's right, just saying it's reality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Wolfgang Date: 18 Apr 04 - 11:51 AM I'm with the majority here, but a minor point: McGrath, for someone who once has made an issue of the spelling 'Iraquis' in this thread the spelling 'Isaeklis' is a tiny bit below standard. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:16 PM I would think it's hard to kiss and make up with someone who has killed so many of your children. One could use the same sort of reasoning to rationalize the behavior of Hamas. Not saying it's right, just saying it's reality. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:45 PM True. However, that provides no rationale for leaving the guy unharmed. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Metchosin Date: 18 Apr 04 - 12:57 PM huh? Oh I get it...."an eye for an eye" sort of stuff....alright, then how about the logical follow up of "toothless and blind"? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 04 - 01:01 PM That's true, too. And we come to the question that keeps rearing its ugly head. Who will deal with the criminals? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 18 Apr 04 - 01:18 PM International court. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 04 - 01:47 PM OK, we got liftoff. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Apr 04 - 02:44 PM Unless we are truly indigenous, we all live in glass houses, brucie, when it comes to how we or our ancestors have dealt with the Other people who previously inhabited places where we want[ed] to live. A very strong connection can be drawn between how Americans in general (with, of course, notable exceptions) and the American military dealt with, and (if they think about them as living populations at all) still deal with, American Indians. If you read the literature you will see that many Indians still consider themselves to be a colonized population. The reservations that are set aside are managed (very poorly) by the federal government, there are many instances when the government has suppressed and imprisoned tribal leaders who fight for fair and truthful treatment (Leonard Peltier, for example--it is clear to many within and without the community involved with Pine Ridge II that the FBI got away with murder, literally). The Israelis colonized Palestine, and have proceeded to treat the native population like noisome pests. There have been glimmers of improvement, but it is my opinion that as long as the same Americans who treat their own indigenous citizens the way they do support the Israelis in their relationship with Palestinians and their Arab nation neighbors, there can be no improvement. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Peace Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:30 PM True, but that is not a trait of either state you mention. Same in Canada, Iraq, India, China, etc. Big fish eat little fish. I'm am not excusing it, but I don't feel sorry for Rantisi. He order the deaths of lots of kids. May he make his peace with his God. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Gareth Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:40 PM A Good Shot ! BTW - and it could only come from a mock intellectual poseur like Fionn, why should the fact that a murderer is confined to a wheel chair give him imunity from what would appear to be retribution. Or has Fionn forgotten, yet again. some of his other posts ? Gareth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 04 - 06:55 PM Just in case you "Anybody But Bush" Dems were wondering (and I'm sure you're not), Kerry came out in support of the new Sharon/Bush plan AND of the assassination of any and all Hamas leaders today. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 18 Apr 04 - 07:11 PM The manipulation of the Palistinian and Israeli people by their respective leaders,has reduced these people to savages,who lust for blood and pain ,to give their lives some meaning. Iv just finished reading the diaries of three SS men who helped run the extermination camp of Auschwitz. The most horrific fact to come through in their writing,and it even disgusted the SS, was the treatment handed out to their own people by the "trusties" whom the Germans used to run the camp. Apparently they would try to outdo one another in acts of barbarity to gain favour with their captors. It just shows how thin the veneer of "civilisation" is, and how we pawns can be made to do anything to please our political masters. In the Palistinian Israeli conflict ,right and wrong have been long forgotten. Death and destruction are the politicians tools ...Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Little Hawk Date: 18 Apr 04 - 07:24 PM Yes, it's called "divide and conquer". Unscrupulous leaders have been employing such tactics for thousands of years in order to further their own search for power and control. Some of them even believe their own rhetoric while they send others out to murder...by bomb or tank, gun or helicopter. "Isreal"? (sic) No, is phony! Is not in the interests of peace or humanity. "Hamas"? No. A sham. - LH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 18 Apr 04 - 07:45 PM SRS: You make valid points re: the U S , Native Americans, and treatment thereof. However, when it comes to Israel and Palestinians I think one has to look at history---history of thousands of years past. Therein lies the problem. This is not the same as the U S and the Native Americans. Rather, it has to do with that ancient history as well as the will of the nations of the world--or something called the UN in seeking a viable solution to an age old problem and justice for displaced people. By the way---as side topic. The area is a hot-bed that we cannot possibly convert to our image. I urge you to read Frank Rich in today's NY Times and his history of Irag (the artificial country--since it was Mesopotania until the events that made an Iraq. Not to mention the Bush involvement there) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 18 Apr 04 - 08:45 PM Guest 6:55 makes a good point. I was appalled at Kerry's refusal to criticise the Bush/Sharon "deal". I can hardly comprehend you Americans pathetic belief that a change of president will solve all the problems. You're in the shit, up to the "oxters" and it will take more than a bit of window dressing to put things right. Islam is the "American nightmare", not George bush. Its time you people took a serious look at your political system, stopped singing about the flag, and praising the "Make-good" society. Maybe then you'll earn some respect from the starving and dispossessed of this world....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Apr 04 - 08:45 PM Bill, when people start doing the math regarding the death of Indians at the hands of both non-Indians and of other Indians in alliance with the whites (it is always a mistake to assume all Indians think alike or cooperated among themselves) millions died. It's folly to try to compare genocide to genocide and one is not more valid than another. Disabuse yourself of that in a hurry, please. How shall we do this math? Thousands a year die over (2-3)thousands of years (amounting to millions), or millions die over (6)hundreds of years? Can you really say one is more egregious than the other? I think not. The point is, the U.S. is in no position itself to go telling other nations how to fix their problems. They have never fixed their own. SRS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Bill Hahn//\\ Date: 18 Apr 04 - 08:55 PM SRS: I am in agreement re: your thinking of the U S vis a vis Native Americans. But, as you surely know, history and life are fluid and evolve. My comments were more to the historical facts of Israel (Palestine) history and its evolution into political agreements by the community of nations. We could discuss 1948 at length, since that is where all this stems from. I would surely recommend reading the book by Michael Oren about the 1967 War and other tomes prior to that ==including the writings of Abba Eban for some more insights into the situation. Granted, I have recommended 2 works by Israelis (one is and expatriate American). That said I will add that, to me, the sad thing is that Rabin's plans were cut short with his assasination and also Clinton's initiative in trying to fine a legitimate solution. Sadly, now, we are involved with Hawks---from Dubya to Sharon. Bill Hahn |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: dianavan Date: 18 Apr 04 - 09:03 PM "Kerry came out in support of the new Sharon/Bush plan AND of the assassination of any and all Hamas leaders today." Hmmm - If this is true, do you really think voting for Kerry is really going to change anything? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 18 Apr 04 - 10:13 PM Let's see the citation on that, please. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 18 Apr 04 - 10:18 PM Voting for Kerry will not change anything re: Israel/Palestine. It won't change much with regard to whether or not the US wages more pre-emptive wars on other countries, except that under a Kerry administration, such wars will probably not be actually called "wars". But the agenda will be substantially the same as it is now under Bush. I'd say you can count on that. And the reason for that is that US presidents aren't allowed to be anything but puppets. It's the string pullers who set the agendas. We in the US don't get to vote for or against the string pullers. Democracy has been dead in the US for many years, if it ever really existed at all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 18 Apr 04 - 10:24 PM BTW, akenaton, Islam isn't our nightmare. Our nightmare is the powerful corporate interests who set the agendas and pull the strings. They also happen to be your nightmare, but you perhaps don't know it yet. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:43 AM akenaton, I do understand your fury, but the words "you people" always concerns me. I was born in American, as were many who post here, and I really dislike being clumped into this kind of generality. Americans are a mixed bag of people who are on both sides of any dispute going. Please don't fall into this kind of rhetoric for your own sake. I'm not sure where you reside, but I doubt "you people" are completely blameless of the nightmares surrounding us, if you get my drift....speaking only for ME, of course..xx..e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Apr 04 - 07:12 AM Eichmann wasn't assassinated, he was put on trial. That would be the right way to deal with leaders accused of instigating terrorist attacks, such as Rantisi. Or Sharon - decribed by the Israeli commission of inquiry following the Sabra and Shatila massacres as "unfit to hold public office". The goal of these killings isn't to eliminate organisations committed to violent resistance - it is to strengthen them, and to undermine the possibility of any kind of alternative strategy of resistance on the part of the Palestinians, which might be a more formidable opponent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 19 Apr 04 - 07:19 AM Carol...Im sure you dont misunderstand my position.I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you write on this issue,and by American nightmare I did mean the effect of fundamentalism on American business interests. Most of the American people seem to be so naive ,as to have no power at all. Ellen..Im sorry if I have offended, and meant nothing personal,but the political attitude of most Americans, even the very intelligent ones who post here,seems to lack understanding of whats really being done to them. Some people say that this naivity is charming,and so it is in some circumstances,but the beasts who control you,love the taste of it....Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ringer Date: 19 Apr 04 - 07:46 AM Any evidence to back up either of these conspiracy theories? CarolC's "Bush is merely a puppet...", or McGrath of Harlow's "Assassinate Hamas leaders to strengthen Hamas so a really effective resistance can't form..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: ard mhacha Date: 19 Apr 04 - 08:27 AM Britains newspaper of the year, the Daily Mirror had an article by Paul Routledge on Saturday which lambasted Tony Blair`s kow-towing to Bush, Routledge`s heading was " Premier creeps to eejit Texan" and he went on to say, " Tony Blair last night took on the full-time job of cheerleader for George Bush in his bid to be re-elected president of the USA. It was embarrassing. More than that, it should disgust every voter in the United Kingdom where- if Blair has his way- our destiny is tied to the murderous bully-boys in Washington. Last night, Blair bought totally into the campaign for the re-lection of the President. He emeged as the true CREEP to George Bush. Bush called him " a stand kind of guy", standing up for what?, The perpetuation of hard-line right-wing Republican polotics that crooked it`s way through the last Presidental election and now aims to buy it`s way into future power. Can it really be right that a Labour Prime Minister should articulate the scumbag direction of politics directed by Bush?,. . Routledge in his hard hitting article decribed Blair as going along with, US policy despite the fact that he [Blair] is being humilated, and is tagging along as Bush`s lap-dog. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 19 Apr 04 - 01:02 PM Calling it a "conspiracy theory", Ringer, is just an attempt to divert attention away from the real issues through the use of a thinly veiled argumentum ad hominem. All you have to do is follow the money to know what's really going on. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Apr 04 - 01:39 PM When you do something, and it is pretty obvious that it is going to have certain results, it is reasonable to assume that these results are part of your intention in carrying out that action. The terrorists on both sides - within the IDA and Al Hamas etc - make claims that their intention is that their violence will deter the other side. However this seems so self-evidently contradicted by what actually happens that it requires a very convoluted kind of reasoning to accept it. The simpler explanation is that in both cases the actual intention is to achieve what is achieved - to ensure that the extremists on the other side have their position bolstered, and that nothing will interfere with the continuing war which ensures their own power. I am a bit puzzled by the way the term "conspiracy theory" is thrown around. A "conspiracy" just means that a number of people collectively agree that something should be done, and that they require a degree of confidentiality. That is what happens in all politics and in all business. All attempts from outside to understand what is going on are therefore by definition "conpiracy theories". Some of these are right and some are wrong, that's all. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Wolfgang Date: 19 Apr 04 - 02:15 PM From Sharon's point of view to order the killing made sense: He'll be more likely to get a majority in two weeks within Likud for his separation plan. I doubt he looks much further and considers other consequences. In one of his last interviews Rantisi said (my translation from German): "It is not up to Sharon to determine when I have to die, it is up to Allah's will." When he was killed, the people on the street interviewed said "Sharon is going to pay for that." Since I first saw the interview when he was dead the two quotes were in nearly direct succession and left me puzzled deeply. Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ringer Date: 19 Apr 04 - 03:45 PM No evidence, then. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Once Famous Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:04 PM Congratulations to Israel for their fine aim at eliminating another Hamas terrorist. Hamas won't even say who their next leader is going to be. Wonderful! Their group is disintegrating Let's make Israel the 51st state. Fine with me! I am pleased that Bush backs Israel. Hats off to Sharon. We are just not going to be bullied by them or anyone else, anymore. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: akenaton Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:17 PM Mr Gibsons post above,giving a fine analysis of the current Palistinian/Israeli conflict,does much to confirm my previously posted opinion of American political theory...Ake |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:19 PM 51st State? wouldn't it be easier to transfer the whole shebang to one of the existing 50, and everyone could be happy? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:39 PM Martin Gibson writes: "I am pleased that Bush backs Israel. Hats off to Sharon. We are just not going to be bullied by them or anyone else, anymore." Bullshit! As long as Jews in America continue to pour billions of dollars into American political coffers, American politicians will continue to cowtow to Isreal. And that means both parties. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Stilly River Sage Date: 19 Apr 04 - 04:59 PM
No, not in the least. Quite the opposite, in fact. They are being forced underground, where attempts at reason and negotiation are much more difficult. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: CarolC Date: 19 Apr 04 - 10:10 PM On the contrary, Ringer. For my assertion, that Bush is a puppet, here is all the evidence you need: http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Disinfopedia As I said before, all you have to do is follow the money. Martin Gibson, I think I would consider voting for that proposal. Then all of the people in Israel would be subject to the same laws and the same constitutional protections that those of us in the US currently enjoy. Of course, it would also guarantee that Muslim and Arab immigrants would have the same rights and access to citizenship as Jews. And it would also mean the end of Isreal as "The Jewish State", because that clearly is unconstitutional under the US constitution. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: Ellenpoly Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:14 AM Akenaton, I beg you not to believe that all Americans are represented by anyone at mudcat, and certainly not by Mr Gibson. He speaks for himself, which is his right. At the same time, it is simply not true that Americans are incapable of seeing the reality of the world around them. Many do, but many, like me, have become so disenchanted with our government's policies not just during this administration, but for the past several decades of blunders, bullying, and general forms of imperialism that has run rampant globally, taking up where Britain left off. Sometimes I think that by moving around the world as I have for the past thirty-odd years, I'll find somewhere to hide from it all, having given up feeling I can make any difference to what seems to be humanities' slide into self destruction...But there is no place to run anymore, and my eyes, and many like me both out and inside of America, look on and weep as a country of such possibilities continues to be at the forefront of tearing apart our world. I'm not at all naive, akenaton, just without much hope..xx.e |
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Subject: RE: BS: Isreal Wastes no Time.... From: GUEST Date: 20 Apr 04 - 04:43 AM The people of Israel will continue to live in their ancestral home. Not in America, nor anywhere else. There will be a peceful coexistence , eventually, with the Palestinian State which will arise by the side of Israel.Prabably after much more bloodshed. Assasination is wrong and should not be performed. Rantisi was no elected political leader but a vile murderer, head of a terror organisation , avowed to the destruction of Israel, who organised and trained young people to perform acts of indiscriminate suicide bombing, no matter where no matter when. It was not possible to apprehend him and bring him to justice. |
