BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:43 PM

Hey, Bobert... you know I think yer kewl... and I like yer forward and creative approach to 'politics as usual'. Ya got an open mind, and you increase the openness of those around you! Hooray for your integrity, Bobert! Sure, giving the election to Bush will make things unbearably obvious... but many of us, and I still believe that you are amoung this majority, already are exceedingly conscious of the need the US and the world have for a 'polarity shift' in the White House.

I do believe that this particular guest is a conniving Bush supporter though... and if you read through the posts that this ardent liar has presented, I'm confident that you will see the spector we are confronted with in the bigger political arena. The sole objective of this person (whether conscious or subconscious) is the delegitimization of common sense that is the foundation for an open minded and democratic approach to the re-establishment of the US's moral integrity.

Bobert,... I believe we have a problem... we need to get back on track before we go anyplace new...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 May 04 - 09:56 PM

Howard Dean apparently is going to get his own talk show--a better deal than being President, if you asked me--People might even watch, which gives him one up on Nader--

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 04 May 04 - 03:46 PM

Bobert: Agreed. If the Democrats aren't willing to learn the lesson Nader taught them in 2000, to hear what that segment of the population was saying, they really deserve four more years of Bush. Maybe then they'll grow spines and quit aping the (damn dirty) Republicans. Like many drug addicts I've known, the Democrats won't know how far they've fallen 'til they're giving handjobs for quarters. Which isn't far off now.

GUEST: Ah, don't let these dickweeds drive you off. Most intelligent people tune "Big" Mick out after reading "Ahem! My dear fellow Mudcatters, WAMSO/Matriot is once again using yet another age-old trick... blah classic blah blah deception motherfucking blah." Which seems to be every third post of his, lately. One day, his obession with you will pass. Hopefully before he snaps, breaks into your house, and eats your parakeet.

McGoH: I'm anything but anonymous.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:02 PM

You sure you don't mean "hand jobs" for a courter, Lepus? Tennis anyone? Bleckh... That was a downer Mr Rex...
ttr

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:28 PM

You know, I really expected better of you, Lepus.

I certainly don't want GUEST to leave. But I am only too happy to point out when she is full of shit. Kind of like you, Lepus. But one thing you are wrong on. When I see creteans manipulating folks with phony posts, double posting under different identities, setting up phony premises so they can belittle folks, or any of the other little horseshit gags then I jump on them. Usually you don't do these things. You are just an asshole, but I deal with them all the time so I ignore you. You also are not deceptive. You come straight out with your crap, so I at least respect that you do that. But this GUEST thinks she is so damn superior and that us ordinary folks won't realize that she is setting us up. So I speak to her in the same patronizing fashion.

And, as usual, when she is caught and realizes that people have figured her out (as in this thread) she cuts and runs, using the "I don't want to waste my time" excuse.

I wish I could say it has been nice hearing from you again.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: DougR
Date: 04 May 04 - 04:42 PM

Big Mick: regarding your remark about Nader being rich ...I don't think anyone has ever pointed out Kerry as being financially destitute either. I don't know, but I would guess that his assets are far larger than Nader's.

As to whether or not GUEST works for Bush, I, myself, doubt it. I do suspect he/she enjoys stirring the pot though.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 04 - 07:45 PM

I wonder where in the world this guest could be from.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 04 - 08:13 PM

Ahhhhh, in case I read the name of this thread wrong, it was about Nadar, not GUEST...

Just an obseravtion...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 04 May 04 - 08:25 PM

(Sorry for the off-topic post, but...)

Oh, stop wagging your finger at me, Mick. You expected nothing less. I told you before, continue to persecute GUESTs, and I'll continue to defend them. If you were the crusader for truth that you claim to be, you'd be out there pointing out what you think is "bullshit" in the posts of pretty much everyone. But you don't. You focus on one GUEST, one who happens to be anonymous (which you irrationally fear), and one who happens to loudly support a presidential candidate who is a real threat to the firmly-entrenched machine Democrats and political hacks (read: you) that have run the Democratic party into the rut of mediocrity it's now embedded in. That's cool that you disagree. Argue about it, call names, whatever. But you take it one step further: you bully. You use your position of limited authority, and your (admittedly well-earned) respected status to browbeat GUESTs into submission. Whether or not this GUEST is a female or not (never inquired as it's, yanno, none of my fucking business), you believe that s/he is. Why are you so obsessed with this one woman? And why do you feel the need to dominate her?

And keep making those false claims about me posting anonymously. Last time you did that, you went home crying with your pants around your ankles after I'd had my figurative way with you. I don't feel the need to extract another of your back-handed apologies, so let's not go through the motions.

And why on Earth are you dragging the fine people of Crete into this?

Doug: "Stirring the pot" is a negative thing? What do you think you do, when you air your conservative Republican views in a forum dominated by "liberals?" You "stir the pot," and stimulate conversation. When you (and the other two or so conservative types) express your hugely unpopular views, you're adding life to what would otherwise be a stale conversation between a bunch of boring old hippies patting each other on the back. And this doesn't make you a "troll." It makes you a participant. Same with GUEST. If you or s/he were to just throw a thread out there saying, for instance, "Lepus is a fag," just to maliciously provoke an argument, that would be trolling. GUEST's posts are consistent, expressing what are obviously his/her own opinions. S/he takes part in the ensuing discussions, with posts that even his/her nemesis Big Mick has admired. So be glad, as I am, that you, GUEST, and others are here to "stir the pot." And pray that the GUEST-haters never decide to turn on members like you. :)

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Amos
Date: 04 May 04 - 08:40 PM

I'm just thinking out loud here, so bear with me:

I keep in the back of my mind the idea that Lepus and GUEST may just be the very bleeding tip of the next American revolution. I certainly hope so. The way things are going we need some sharp-tined pitchforking to turn over the huge mass of old waste matter that has accumulated in the political barnyard. The irrationality of our poitical machinery is legendary! And like many other self-satisfied old hippies, I have become more centrist, more gradual, and less shrill in my older years. But think back (for example) on the shrill rock throwing that unarmed students in huge numbers were engaging in in 1970.

Maybe we do not have what it takes to get this behemoth back on course without a civil war. I have no idea what kind of war that would be -- obviously nothing like any other.
Maybe it would be a revolution of words and nonviolent interventions. But like Kent State, not without martyrs.

But I doubt the vote is going to have a major impact.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:00 PM

While there's a part of me that agrees with you, Amos, what if Nadar were to take 6 or 7%, knock Kerry out and be in the '08 debates. Whew!

"Ya say ya' want a revolution..."

Well, it would seem to me that if the American people were to hear Ralph Nadar as a ***bonifide candidate***, the revolution would be under way. And thus perhaps cicumvent the real possibilty of a far bloodier revolution that I see brewing as the ruling class continues to think it can get away with screwing over the working class, the "two tiered" grocery workers settlement in your state being "Exhibit A"...

So, go Ralph, go... You may represent America's only way out of it's course of self destruction...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Amos
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:31 PM

I don't want a revolution in the bloody sense, but I would not mind seeing a radical reassertion of our core insistence on rational values. One simple example is the bizarre practice (just for example here) of bundling legislation behind headings and subjects that have nothing to do with it. So you get a senator pushing a pork barrel job relating to all his roller-skate rental-booth friends back in Nebraska, and it is tucked deep inside some hot issue relating to flood control. Thanks God the Senate is on the job, taking care of Mississippi flood control!! You turn around all of a sudden the flood control bill has passed and inside it, several million roller-skate renters in Nebraska are getting checks from Uncle Sam and there is NO rational connection wheresoever. This kind of shenanigan is BRAZEN DISHONESTY and INTENTIONAL IRRATIONALITY!! It oughta be taken out and shot.

Now, that's just one little example of institutionalized corruption and degradation and there are plenty of others. It makes my poor heart to bleed, it truly does. How can we trust a man to be enlightened when he is dealing with double-tongued double-dealing duplicity like this?

At least when Patrick said "Now gimme liberty, or fuck it, ghive me death!!" you could understand him!! Anyone here "understand" the Patriot Act and its reptilian cousins? I kinda thought so...

Amos steamingatthekeyboard...

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:39 PM

If everyone really feels that, write-in the candidate of your choice (assuming you still have that right in US elections). Why play games with ANY 'large' political party? Why are even the 'radicals' attached to the voting system and 'recognized' political parties?

Not steaming at the keyboard, but curious nonetheless.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:47 PM

Hmmm... I think I need to weigh in here. As a conservative (NOT a Bush supporter) I disagree with much that Big Mick has expressed: But I support his right to say, and work for those things.

If Nader does gat any electorial votes, he can direct his electors to vote for whomever he wants to get the votes. After the firat ballot, if there are no clear winners, I believe that the electors can vote for whoever they wish.

A better method, available without a change to the Constitution, would be for states to split their EC votes by the percent of population that voted for each candidate. Now why haven't all the Dems been out there pushing that? Perhaps because they would lose as many votes in "solid" states as they would gain in the others.

It is my opinion that, regardless of Nader, the Democrats will lose this election ( barring more stupid moves by Bush*) because they are not running anyone FOR president- just against Bush.

*Specifically, the whole fuss about marriage. Those who agree with him would have voted for him regardles, and he has alienated som part of the vast middle that will determmine the election. Regardless of his views, he should have just kept quiet about the whole thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: GUEST
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:57 PM

lEPUS REX IS GUEST! i KNOW BECAUSE i KNOW! NO MATTER WHAT HE SAYS TO THE CONTRARY...MWWWUUUHAAAAAA

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 04 - 09:59 PM

Wo, Amos, wo.... Go take a shower, dang it.... Yer gonna melt yer keyboard...

So lets look at the way government is today. Twom part system, one part rule! Who ever got the 50.1% is gonna rule yer butt into poverty. Firget then 49'9%. They are OUT, OUT, OUT!!!! And then it turns around an the 49.9%'ers win and they rule...

And it don't matter a tinker's damn, the pok goes to the 50.1%'ers...

That's is precisely why we need Rapl Nadar in the presidential debates... When he explains to the American people, as a CANIDATE for President and in the presidential debates what is going down America id going to go "Wow, the guy is right!!!" and from that day forward America will be forever changed...

Problem is that the "system" (DNC and their buddues the RNC) put forth a lot of effort into marginalizing and trivalizing Ralph Nadar. I'd bet that 90% of Americans have never heard him. No make that 95%. No, make that 97%....

So, winning 5% is big. Real BIG. BIGGER than one can imagine 'cause it represents the the long over due beginning of the next chapter of the evolution of the United Staes toward a real world leader rather than a bully...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 May 04 - 10:29 PM

bobert: "I'd bet that 90% of Americans have never heard him."

Do you mean, never heard him speak? Or is that a typo- do you mean, never heard of him? I'd quarrel with one of those statements and not with the other.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Peace
Date: 04 May 04 - 10:37 PM

Can Americans write-in candidates?

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Bobert
Date: 04 May 04 - 10:56 PM

Ebbie,

No, no typo. Sure, lots of folks have heard of Ralph Nadar and most have an opinion of him but for folks who have actually heard him speak??? Very few. Very few....

Once you hear him, unless you are blinded in partisanship, things change in yer thinkin'...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Big Mick
Date: 04 May 04 - 11:24 PM

Actually, lepus, that was a sincere apology, but you would have to be a sincere person to recognize it.

Nice try on baiting me in that last post, by the way. As I explained in the apology post, I don't like folks that pull what your buddy does. And I will point out the faults in their logic, and the phoney premises they try to construct every time. As to having it in for this person, I always respond to what that person posts. "Can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen" applies here. I have seen many other posts, and threads, by this person that I never bothered to get into as they were great discussions.

One bit of whining that GUEST does cracks me up. This person doesn't like the "warrior class" taking over the thread. That came as a result of GUEST doing exactly the same thing. GUEST felt that was legitimate, so I think it is too. If GUEST wants that to stop, then GUEST needs to have enough decency to not do the same thing.

I find your posts humorous in their attempt to get something going.

Love,

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:07 AM

Well, my fellow Mudcatters, Big Mick has shown us all an example of the ancient art of dodging questions by questioning the intent of the questioner. Oh-ho-ho! As my close, personal friend, John F. Kennedy once said, "Harrumph! I believe he may be in league with Satan!"

So, whatever, Mick. Dodge my questions all you like, but your actions speak for you. As you yourself wrote, "as to having it in for this person, I always respond to what that person posts." What more can I say? You've admitted your guilt.

And by the way, saying that you're sorry that I'm such an asshole that I made you falsely accuse me? Well, that wasn't really much of a fucking sincere apology. Sorry. A sincere apology would have been offered without qualifications.

Anywho, back to the topic... Nader. :)

Amos, when I wrote "boring old hippies," I want you to know that I meant that in the best possible way. ;) But why be a "centrist?" Mellowing with age is not inevitiable, but a choice. And you certainly still seem pissed off enough to throw a rock or so. :)

Ugh, I'm being kicked off the computer... You're all spared.

---Lepus Rex

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:24 AM

I just went back and re-read the apology. I believe it is on the mark. You just didn't like the fact that I nailed you.

Keep on shooting your mouth off. That is fine. You just show yourself for the smartass you are.

By the way, your tactic here is obvious. It won't work.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:31 AM

Bobert-
I've heard him. I met him. He's worse than that.

But that's irrelevant. We have, here in the US a two-party system, and an electoral college (both of which, I think, are lousy ideas.) But that's what we have. No splinter candidate's gonna change that.
    Change can happen--but only from within the structure. Dean has had much more of an impact than Nader ever could. As the old Commies used to say---bore from within.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Big Mick
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:45 AM

I agree, Dick. With all of your points. Folks have been letting the powers that be split them with wedge issues for far too long. Be it guns, abortion rights, whatever. They immediately run for the hills instead of working from within. That is how they control the working class.

Mick

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: DougR
Date: 05 May 04 - 01:54 AM

Know why I think Bush will be re-elected? Well, I'll tell you anyway. The people who hate GWB will vote for anybody that isn't GWB. Problem is, there are two choices other than Bush. And you can't come together to support just one of them.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 06:53 AM

Not only do the Mudcat Vietnam vets continue to bully anyone who disagrees with them these days, and attempted to shove their deluded notions of themselves as romantic nationalist warriors down everyone's throats here, but they are also taking over any conversations having to do with Nader.

Big Mick, Teribus, Norton 1, Chief Chaos, et al have gone far beyond stalking the anti-militarists here, and have moved into sniper mode.

I apologize to no one for being morally and ethically opposed to the nationalist institutions of the US military industrial complex, including the nationalist holidays for warrior worshipping that keeps the cannon fodder coming.

However, I'm not attacking the posts of the Vietnam vets here. If anyone would bother to read these threads carefully enough, they would see that the vets are attacking anyone who doesn't dance to their tune. They might "politely" disagree with some here they feel they can't easily attack, like Bobert or CarolC. But the minute someone criticizes them, they get very personal, some even obsessed as Big Mick has. And then they get REALLY aggressive and nasty.

Just when was this terrible thread that so traumitized Big Mick, anyway? And if he is such a big man with a huge heart, why is he so driven to seek such bloody revenge? I guess he just enjoys the cyber blood on the walls when he feels he can cyber assassinate people who dare to disagree with him.

And as to any conversation about Nader here, no way. It has been made perfectly clear that no pro-Nader threads will be tolerated either. Three posts into a Nader thread, and it is Thomas the Rhymer accusing the Guest Nader supporter of being a fed, supporting Bush. What is up with that?

For a group of people who claims to love democracy and who claims to be fair to all, this forum sure doesn't demonstrate it in daily practice. It has all become about winning through intimidation and Mudcat tribal warfare, with the Vietnam vets leading the charge.

I'm not complaining here either folks, just calling it the way I see it.

It is the culture of militarism in action on this forum.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: GUEST
Date: 05 May 04 - 07:16 AM

I don't know Nader personally, but I did meet him in the 2000 election, and I know his 2000 VP running mate, Winona La Duke. She speaks very highly of him, and as I've said before, I'm going to take the word of someone who knows him well, and recently, before I take the word of someone on an internet forum with an ax to grind against him.

Interestingly, Winona is currently supporting Nader's right to run, although she hasn't endorsed him at this point. I'm thinking Winona may yet try and leap into the Green Party fray, and accept being drafted as their presidential candidate. If that happens, I may have to switch my vote from Nader to La Duke, to support a run by her and to help the Greens.

Subject: RE: BS: Can Nader pull off a Ventura?
From: Peace
Date: 05 May 04 - 10:22 AM

So, Lepus, what do you actually do to further the cause of justice for all? You mentioned, "throw a rock." At whom do you throw rocks?