BS: Michael Moore on Question Time

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:46 PM

Aketon,

I didn't see the program. I will say this. Dialogue of any consequence is now
not a part of American discourse. The reason for this is that we are in the process of being taken over by Republican fascists. The dialogue has been reduced to diatribe for political purposes. I don't think it's ever been this extreme before when the American public can't talk to each other if they are on a different political side.

My experience with trying to talk to Republicans is that the discourse is never either taken seriously or so seriously that it turns into a shouting match.

What we are going through now is a clash of cultural values. One one hand, the Republican model of dictatorial and patriarchal iron-handed pronouncements and on the other side, a denial of basic nurturing and compassionate ideas sacrificed to policies, facts and wonks.

The two sides are unable to communicate with each other because of the extremity and polarity of our country based on the aforementioned.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: harvey andrews
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 06:53 PM

The word is "FEAR". Generate it, perptuate it and power is yours. Hitler knew this.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Peg
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:01 PM

dianavan--I was agreeing with you.

akenaton--This thread opens with a very anti-American tone to it--yours. The "oriental" comment just pushes it over the edge.Therefore I think referring to you as a bigot is justified.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:05 PM

Thanks Frank...Its clear from the posts of yourself and other US Mudcatters, that reason and intelligence are still alive and well .

Maybe we could form a World Govt.

But who for president??

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:12 PM

Peg ..The tone was not meant to be anti American, but anti ignorance.
Many Americans have posted to agree the level of public debate in the US is deplorable and getting worse.
Im more inclined to take their word than that of an embittered English feminist..Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:17 PM

Harvey...I agree with your assessment.

And a climate of ignorance helps the fear to spread.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 04 - 07:18 PM

The programme is still there to see, Frank, on the link I gave early in the thread, and it'll be there till Thursday. I don't mean there should be any obligation to see it, but I point that out just in case that "I didn't see the program" implied that you wished you had. (You didn't miss much. But often enough Question Time is pretty good.)

The impression I get, possibly unjustly, is that the US political scene is more or less mutual "diatribe for political purposes" - Michael Moore is a lot funnier then the people he's up against, and I find him very likeable, and he does an enormous amount to stop anti-Bushite feelings degenerate into anti-American prejudice, but he's basically playing the same kind of game.

There's the old saying "Bad money drives out good", and I suppose that's what's happening. Our tabloids over here are pretty advanced practitioners of this kind of stuff, and no doubt other aspects of our public life will catch up before too long.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: shepherdlass
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 07:33 AM

I was equally depressed by the standard of debate. Felt particularly sad that one woman was voting for Bush because she believes he's in favour of the stem cell research which would help her spinal injury. That's the effect of spin on real debate, I suppose, but it was a very cruel illustration of it.

However, I think Moore was deliberately subdued - he took a lot of stick last time round for supporting Nader and being perceived as one of those who let Bush in - so this time maybe caution was the watchword. The few points he did make (eg how the Brits were kicked out of their empire any number of ways bar another foreign power invading the country in order to liberate the people - which was clearly not democratic!) were pretty good but seemed to go completely over the heads of that Jerry Springer audience.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Peg
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:00 AM

Embittered English feminist?

If you're referring to me, I'm an American.

And that is also an extremely bigoted statement, akenaton.

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:44 AM

akanaton is an interesting choice of handle check out the story of the real Akanaton.
Harvey has it right; the neocon disciples of the prophet Straus have a not very well hidden agenda to reverse all this untidy liberalism and political pragmatism to unite the American people in a simplistic fear and hatred of mythical and (for now) external threat.
Rumsfeld did this with the Russians in Reagon's time and now it's Al qaeda, which the Weasel worded Machiavellian hypocrite help set up.
PP

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:44 AM

Peg... Im sorry I was confused over your nationality,but I thought I remembered reading of a Cornish childhood?Im sorry if I was mistaken.

On the subject of bigotry, someone much wiser than me said on another thread,that there is bigotry of one kind or another in each and every one of us, I can assure you I have no bigotry towards women and Im sure calling someone a feminist could not be construed as such.

Under the circumstances,and as a gesture of goodwill,Im prepared to alter the phrase to "embittered American feminist"...Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 08:51 AM

P Piper...Im glad you've discovered the story of my historical hero.

The worlds first free thinker!!....But the bastards got him in the end

Keep digging, maybe his story will change your life a little ,as it did mine.....Best wishes   Ake

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 01 Nov 04 - 09:41 AM

Hi McGrath,

I agree that the discourse or debate is polluted by some passions.
Moore is funny, though. But it's not about facts any more.
It's a clash of ideologies. In America, we're too close to the process of elections to take an objective point-of-view. It's more about how a candidate or a supporter appears on TV and it doesn't help that there is a highly virule anti-intellectual strain rampant in our country that is being spread by a partisan pseudo-religious faction who tend to vote Republican. To hear them talk,
God don't wantcha' to read or think too much.

There is another virus, the largest one being warmongering which is somehow connected to owning guns. It's funny how this heavy-handed approach to problem solving is revisited time and again. Insanity: Doing something over and over again that doesn't work.

I am optimistic about our country, though. We've got quite a few sane, intelligent and sensible people who sometimes are allowed to peek through the clouds of media spin and shine some light on important issues.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: semi-submersible
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 03:14 AM

The USA does have a lot of great people, and a powerful culture as long as you can keep morale up. However, intelligent glimmers within clouds of addictive fug are unsustainable.

Intelligence, independence, and critical thinking require a stimulating environment (challenging yet secure) to develop. The overhead is too high for many families to provide this for their children in isolation. Enclaves of sanity could still be feasible except for the addictive factor I mentioned: the media-disseminated fug is heavily laced with potent subliminal appeals to survival imperatives. The Hummer ad is an example. For every woman who says, "Fagh!" after viewing it critically, there must be many who see the same ad without making the intellectual effort (if they were into effort, they wouldn't be watching the tube in the first place) but they will certainly pick up on the "protect my offspring" implication, and it may influence the car-buying ones to pick something heavy (with the usual costs, of course).

Seeing that the neocons control the money, the weapons, the media, and the state of the art in propaganda, how do you see us dreamers and believers shaping a better future?

What would an optimistic future look like, anyway? (I mean, one we can reach from where we are.)

Maureen

P.S. Akhenaton was a great patron of philosophy and the arts, but weren't there valid concerns among his contemporaries about getting people fed and keeping the barbarians from the unbuilt gates?

Subject: RE: BS: Michael Moore on Question Time
From: akenaton
Date: 02 Nov 04 - 01:54 PM

Maureen....I enjoyed that message, and Ill be thinking of what you said for a long time

Regarding Akhenaton,although your points about practicality are valid, don't we need dreamers and believers such as he to construct the stimulating environment you feel we require.

If any dreamers or idealists dare to peep out from under their stones on this forum, they are immediately crushed by the politically correct, or supporters of the status quo. BW Ake