'twee voices'

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:29 PM

So did that last by nameless GUEST Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:17 PM (get a name!) mean he like Peter Bellamy or he loathed him?

I can't think of any singer whom I'd consider as having more "listenability" than Bellamy.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:31 PM

Amen McG. Just goes to show.............
S:0)

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: shepherdlass
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:38 PM

Oh puh-lease!

Surely all tweeness is relative and depends entirely on what you personally feel is heartfelt? There's no such thing as absolute good taste. And, sorry, but most accusations of tweeness do get directed at women, which is completely down to relative positions of power in dictating taste.

More positively, I'd like to suggest the main problem with Mike Harding's show is the very predictable roster of artists week in, week out, and not actually to do with the abilities of any of those performers who Smooth Ops choose to overexpose. But then, if a national broadcaster gives a production company just 1 hour a week in which to present an accessible folk prog then they'll do just that - and choose the most accessible material. Maybe we should stop carping at Mike Harding and think instead about lobbying the big cheeses at the Beeb for some more time slots.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:38 PM

Her Highness the Countess spake thus:

"A lack of familiarity with the Young Hunting story plus a lack of acquaintance with two decidedly untwee interpretations of it tends to demolish the pedestal upon which your opinion is teetering.

Oh and I didn't realise this thread had a point. The appearance of the ubiquitous scribbling Lizzie would seem to confirm that at least."

Rather proves my point about your insufferable snobbishness, that.

As to whether the thread has a point or not--you might have thought of that before you joined in, since your contribution here certainly has none.

Catty miserable little thing aren't you?

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:42 PM

"And, sorry, but most accusations of tweeness do get directed at women, which is completely down to relative positions of power in dictating taste."

Excellent point, shepherdlass, and quite germane to the way this thread has meandered.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:43 PM

Peter Bellamy was a consummate storyteller, which is what the performance of traditional song should be about. His presence compelled his audience to hang on to every twist and nuance of the tale. Yes, his singing style was entirely artificial. That was because he was a middle-class ex-art student in the late 20th century, not a medieval wandering minstrel. He worked so hard at his art. The shame is that he was not sufficiently appreciated in his lifetime. Nor, indeed, by some now. How I wish he was here to listen to now.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:55 PM

Some very nasty static around here. Ignoring it is the best way.
............................................

"Twee" is one of those value loaded words which distort discussions. By that I mean, instead of discussing the merits and demerits of singers, we get sidetracked into discussing the meanings of words.

If we say a singer's style,is highly emotional, or or free from emotion, or simple, or complicated, or natural or artificial, we can agree about that, and move the argument on to whether we think that these qualities detract from the performance or not.

But a word like "twee" leaves as stuck at the starting line - because agreeing to us that word to describe the performance means that we have dismissed it as essentially worthless.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:55 PM

As to whether the thread has a point or not--you might have thought of that before you joined in

I only "joined in" because I saw I had been quoted out of context from another place by someone called GUEST - Big. Whether this GUEST is the same as all the other UGs is unclear. Besides, it's irrelevant. As a Mudcat member I hardly require "permission" from rambling, shambling GUESTS who forum trawl for snippets to nitpick about for their own, unknown, confused and obscure agenda, to post what I want in an arena where I am known to many and can debate with my peers.

Get a name and a mind, or get out.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 02:55 PM

countess dearie, it was you who launched the opening volley "That was me, pursuing the age-old pastime of slagging off the alarming direction of the Mike Harding show on the board hosted by its producers."

If you start threads for the express purpose of slagging other peoples' opinions, just what do you expect? Of course you will be perceived as a catty, miserable excuse for a human.

I would say we have one of those insufferable folk club traditionalists here, hell bent on slagging every contemporary singer not to their liking. So much for condemning those who are "aggressively dismissive of the efforts of artists in such perjorative terms", eh?

Which also flies in the face of what ole Bert and Ewan tried to accomplish, while at the same time ironically illustrating Bert & Ewan's failure to achieve their ends when it came to recovering folk music from the drawing room snobs.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 03:18 PM

Woooooooooooooooo-Hoo!

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 03:22 PM

As you yourself said Countess Richard, "his singing style was artificial" and I ask myself WHY? The man was erudiite and a folk scholar, the 'put on' voice in an apparent bid for authenticity sounded so false, and went a long way to negating the learned introduction to many of his songs. As for Ewan McColl, I named my son Ewan in his honour, and it wasn't for Ewan's personality that I did that!
Giok

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 03:36 PM

Oh, I was beginning to thing the UG might just know me, ever-so-slightly, though obviously never listened to a word I have said or written. But the "folk club traditionalist" bit does it: everyone who actually does know me will be helpless with laughter. Those who've known me longest may be cruelly moved to remind me of my undistinguished "contemporary" past. Most people round here are all too familiar with my castigation of the cliquey "folk club" scene and its inherent refusal to even consider new ways of presenting our cultural heritage.

Must be mistaking me for someone else then. And your counting ability is a bit off-beam. I didn't start the thread. I came in at No 5.

Interesting that you're so sure of what Lloyd and MacColl were trying to achieve 'cos I'm quite certain they didn't. But then, I did walk out of the Critics group...Didn't stop Bert from supporting me every step of the way when I started music writing though. That was on the Morning Star...

Dunno who you are, but please go away. I'm bored.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 04:16 PM

Chuckle, chuckle.

Countess Richard, apparently you think we all *should* know who you are (haughty sniff).

I'm entertaining myself on a slow Saturday afternoon by harpooning your pomposity, arrogance, and sense of self-importance.

Now, if I, who have not a clue who you are, have mistaken you for an arrogant folk snob, why do you suppose that is, hmmmm?

Bored you say? Someone holding you hostage here?

I might add that if the folk music programme in question so infuriates you, why in god's name would you listen to it?

Ah right--so that you can mock it in the morning along with those others in your club who despise Mike Harding.

It seems the lot of you need to be reintroduced to humanity--you've been living too long in your self-imposed folk wilderness among the authenticity wolves.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 04:21 PM

I'm typing this on an artificial keyboard attached to an artificial computer, in an artifcial house in a artificial town.

They didn't just grow there by themselves, they were created by human beings using their heads and applying the skills they had artificially learnt.

And that goes for anything created by humans. Writing a book, or, in a pre-literate culture, telling a story, involves all kinds of artificially acquired skills. Yes, and there is also a srong element that comes from aspects of the storyteller or writer that weren't shaped in that kind of way, they did grow naturally.

And when it comes to singing, the same applies. There's a balance between the artificial and the natural, and different people will have that balance in different places. and different listeners have different preferences as to where the balance is struck. Peter Bellamy's singing was indeed towards the "artificial" end of that balance - it was consciously shaped, rather than instinctive. And it was, in my view, brilliant, not in spite if that but through that.

You don't complain that a tightrope walker is "artificial", though of course not everyone likes tightrope walking acts.

There is no compulsion on anybody to like a performer, however skilled they may be. But when we find we don't like something we shouldn't insist that the reason lies in the thing we dislike rather than in ourselves. If I say I don't a cup of coffee because it has sugar I am just saying that I don't like sugar in my coffee, and this coffee has sugar in it. I am not actually criticising the coffee as such.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:11 PM

On a lighter note I always thought that the anagram Elmer P Bleaty summed up Peter Bellamy's voice very well.

Personally I preferred Bert Lloyd as I felt with him that it was probably the only way he could sing. Reminded me of my Grandfather after a pint or two singing Nellie Dean.

John, how does Jimmy Miller Mckenzie feel about your choice ?

Twee male voices? How about Litle Jimmy Sizemore? or is that too far back.

Have fun and please lighten up on the vitriol.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:27 PM

Coming across the pond, consider John Jacob Niles. I never could stand that self-conscious over-dramatic, over-sentimental falsetto delivery. I couldn't bring myself to listen to more than one song at a sitting.

If that's not "twee", I don't understand the term.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:31 PM

I hadn't heard the Elmer P Bleaty thing before--brilliant! Thanks for lightening me up, I needed it desperately.

I like the idea of an exchange on "your favorite twee voices" myself. But I feel I've done enough damage on the twee voice front for one day.

I'd be happy to hear the lists of others, though, so please carry on.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:33 PM

We could always do this as a twee voices lightning round, then for the finale have a list of the truly dire...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 05:39 PM

John Jacob Niles, I'd forgotten him, probably just as well. Apart from music lessons at school he was probably one of the worst things that ever happened to folk song.

I guess that maybe Burl Ives would come under the twee banner too.

Hey I've wasted enough time on this bloody keyboard for tonight, I'm going to put on my Kari Sickenberger CD and pour a wee bourbon.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 09:07 PM

classical music students who graduate
then can't find regular employment
in major orchestras or opera..

student loan repayments & rents due..

suddenly they rediscover a 'life long'love
of folk and roots music
and a favourite old uncle with 'school ties'influence
at BBC radio 2..

= twee

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 09:09 PM

..and another uncle who went to a good school
with someone now important at EMI & the Brits awards..

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Nov 04 - 09:25 PM

ps. i'm a new guest..
not one of the previous ones..

gotta figure out how to join up here and fix a board name..

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 05:49 AM

That would be good :~)
Welcome in advance.¦¬]
Giok €¦->

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 07:48 AM

on a seasonal note:-
we twee kings

for the tradtionalists
the twees they do grow high

for eddy cochran fans
twee steps to heaven

But by commom assent, the Godfather Part Twee wasn't as good as the other two.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:47 AM

Twee Corbies!

Hmmmmmmmm

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 08:53 AM

Please don't encourage him sarah!!
Giok

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:19 AM

There's a very appropriate quote in the Observer today, in Peter Culshaw's review of Andy Cronshaw's "Ochre" album, which is a multi-cultural look at some English tradfolk tunes. The relevant bit of the review is:

"The disc is mostly instrumental( so you don't have to put up with twee lyrics about forlorn maidens)..."

   This seems to be a resonable comment, the "folk" scene is certainly infested with tweeness. I would add myself that, as far as I can remember, I have never encountered tweeness in the context of a traditional folk performance. Tweeness always seems to me to be added by non-traditional performers doing traditional material(whether classical arrangements, revivalists with guitars and long hair, or children being forced to dance round maypoles). Or alternatively, tweeness is mostly frequently inserted by modern songwriters working within the folk scene and getting their work classified as "folk", either by themselves or by the media.
    As a further comment on whether tweeness is always associated with females, I would say that the best way to explain the word "twee", to anybody who is unfamiliar with it, would be to suggest they listen to "Puff the Magic Dragon" by Peter, Paul and Mary; and two thirds of them were male. This is also a good example of tweeness being unfairly associated with folk. By broadening your definition of folk to include drivel like that, you inevitably tar the world of folk music with a twee brush, when real folk is completely innocent in this respect.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 11:47 AM

How could you, I was crazy about mary Travers when I were a lad? Twee indeed. Breathes there a soul so dull that wouldn't have liked to romp with Mary like a red blooded male in the morning mist in a land called honollee....

You're just feeling your maleness challenged like Germaine greer said in The Twee Male Eunuch.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 12:34 PM

Drummer this affliction of yours is getting a grip, it may not be painfull to type, but it sure is painfull to read. I suggest tweetment ;~)
Giok

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: greg stephens
Date: 14 Nov 04 - 04:41 PM

weelittledrummer: you wilfully misinterpret me. Just because peole are twee is no reason at all not to romp with them. Some of my best romps have occurred with twee people., in honnollee, the local barn. bed or whatever.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Davetnova
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 04:09 AM

You get special jackets for it made out of tweed.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: JulieF
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 05:53 AM

I'm of the opinion that tweeness tend to largely lie in the material not the voice. There a very few really good versions of some of the 'twee' victorian scottish songs. Shortbread box stuff. However, there are a lot of songs which loose their power and could be interpreted as twee depending on the delivery of the singer. As a female singer with a reasonbaly high voice at the top of my range and possibly a tendance to 'wisp' ( especially if I'm not got the breathing right), I am always aware I could sound 'twee'. Or worse - get the breathing right - give it full belt and sound operatic !

Another major contibution to tweeness which has not been touched on is the accomaniment. How many powerful songs are plunged it tweeness not by the singer but by overwrought accomaniment ?

Julie

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 07:40 AM

John Jacob Niles wrote or rewrote some bloody good songs, even if he did tend to make out he'd collected them when he probably didn't. (Which can be seen as a kind of modesty - better than all the other people who have claimed to write songs which were in fact collected. And collected royalties on them too.)

Some people sing in a low voice, some sing in a high voice. That's just as characteristic of traditional singers as revival singers. Sneering at singers because they sing in what the sneerer sees as an innapprpriate register is just silly.

"Twee" is a value judgement, not a description. Why not instead describe the qualities which, because of the way we are ourselves, we do not like? Why bundle them up and stick a word on them that suggests that there is necessarily something objective about our personal tastes?

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: greg stephens
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:07 AM

McGrath: i think you are getting a bit confused about objectivity and personal tastes and tweeness. I entirely agree that you cannot make out a moral or rational taste for preferring Leadbelly to Peter, Paul and Mary. There's no arguing about taste. But to make the leap from that to claiming that there is no objective difference beteen leadbelly and Peter,Paul and Mary is a step too far for me. It's patently bloody obvious there's a difference. I entirely respect your right to prefer which you like, but to pretend there are the same is perverse. And the difference between them(or one of the differences) , is that PPM are twee and Leadbelly isnt.

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: GUEST,DMcF
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 08:58 AM

Wow!
Reading this thread made my lunchbreak sizzle!
Such fire emerging from a thread concerning the 'meek' - gasp!
I even got a mention in there too
(Ta Strollin J! - must get you a pint when I gig down your neck of the woods again).

Don't give up scribbling Liz - always enjoyed your comments on the Beeb board.
Very conversational....It's been like getting to know you - like a character off Mrs Dale's!

I'll just pop an instrumental CD on - some Morris tunes perhaps, then no one can come into my office
and say 'Who's the twee sounding singer you've on?'

What I really wanted to do was start a thread to plug the forthcoming Swarb-Aid gig near here -
but what with the (as Harry Hill would shout...) FIGHT!!!! - I'll have to wait till later.
Warm hugs to all - Duncan
(Guest only as, once again, cookieless!
Curse this Education Authority Network!)

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 09:16 AM

I don't think we actually disagree here, except about linguistics. I'm not saying there's no objective difference, I'm objecting to the arbitrary use of a word that blurs the difference, and lends a spurious objectivity to dubious personal tastes.

If I'm making an unfavourable comparison between PPM and Leadbelly - and I would be if the matter arose - it'd be on the basis of the aspects about they treated their songs. "And I found it twee" might be a valid comment to add, but only as an indication of personal taste. If I was talking about PPM that would indicate that my personal tastes were reasonable enough; if I was talking about Peter Bellamy, on the other hand...

Subject: RE: 'twee voices'
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 15 Nov 04 - 10:52 AM

Someone (I'm too lazy to go back and find out who) called Ewan McColl's singing twee.

As I see it, his renderings of traditional ballads, chanties, and so forth are anything but twee. Many (maybe not all) of the songs he wrote for his own singing seem a bit over the top to me, not in the singing but in the song itself. This may be related to the political or polemic nature of so many of his songs.

I'm sure there are other singers where a similar comment may be made.

Dave Oesterreich